Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?
Xari Jalil July 13, 2005
#27 Posted by smsabir on July 15, 2005 8:39:52 am
A guy spent all of his life while praying and worshiping God so one day he thought about having something very materialistic but satisfactory for a change so he climbed a mountain and asked the God for power, the power to do any good or bad with out being answerable to any one, in reply there was silence.
He thought that he isn’t speaking loud so he yelled and requested God for the Power to do any good or bad, once again silence so the guy thought and this time really yelled with full force and requested God for Power – all of the sudden an angel came from the sky and asked the guy to come with him.
The angel took that person to the Devil and told him that this man desires for The Power.
Devil looked at the guy with a smile, handed him a Pakistani Passport and asked him that would you like to become the Military Dictator, Politician or a Religious Leader in Pakistan?
It is sad but very true that today our leaders and protectors have become the biggest abusers of power and authority.
We all can talk and argue about million things related to the posting “Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?” By Xari Jalil but such abusive way of thinking is a part of our heritage and culture.
Good Posting Xari Jalil.
He thought that he isn’t speaking loud so he yelled and requested God for the Power to do any good or bad, once again silence so the guy thought and this time really yelled with full force and requested God for Power – all of the sudden an angel came from the sky and asked the guy to come with him.
The angel took that person to the Devil and told him that this man desires for The Power.
Devil looked at the guy with a smile, handed him a Pakistani Passport and asked him that would you like to become the Military Dictator, Politician or a Religious Leader in Pakistan?
It is sad but very true that today our leaders and protectors have become the biggest abusers of power and authority.
We all can talk and argue about million things related to the posting “Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?” By Xari Jalil but such abusive way of thinking is a part of our heritage and culture.
Good Posting Xari Jalil.
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#26 Posted by nauman9 on July 15, 2005 8:01:25 am
Ref# 19
[Do you have any evidence to prove this ?]
Top 25 countries and the total number of recorded rapes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
US tops the list with 89,110 rapes, followed by South Africa and Canada. India ranks fifth in that list with 15,468 rapes. Pakistan does not make the top 25 list, though it is the 5th most populous country in the world. The number of rapes appear to be less than 1250/year based on that data (still nothing to be proud off).
Few more stats for your perusal:
Rape Facts (US)
•Rape is the fastest growing violent crime in The United States. (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 1994)
•In the United States, a woman is raped every 6 minutes. (Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center of the National Victims Center, 1992)
•The rate of sexual assault in the United States is the highest of any industrialized nation in the world. (Reiso and Roth, 1993)
•1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual violence at some point in her lifetime. (Warshaw, R. 1988. I Never Called It Rape. Harper and Row).
•1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by age 18. (Walker, L. 1988. Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children)
•An estimated 92,700 men are forcibly raped each year in the United States. (Tjaden and Thoennes, 1998)
It is difficult to get the latest numbers for Pakistan. I’ll post as soon as I find them. An excerpt from the US State Department Report is attached for your perusal.
TITLE: PAKISTAN HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES, 1994
AUTHOR: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DATE: FEBRUARY 1995
[“Rape is a widespread problem, although there was a slight
decline in the reported incidence of rape during 1994 compared
to 1993. There were about 800 cases of rape reported in the
press during the year.”]
You can read the complete report at: http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1994_hrp_report/94hrp_report_sasia/Pakistan.html
[Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ? ]
The initial trial was handled by the Anti-terrorism court under the
Ordinance; “Anti-Terrorism (Amendment) Ordinance 1999”, for the purpose of providing a speedy trial for the case. That law provides that any act intended to create civil commotion would be triable in ATA court. In retrospect, that “speedy trial” created more problems than it solved.
Don’t get me wrong. I am on your side and have been on “Mai’s side” since the beginning.
Ref# 20
[No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse.]
I am aware of that and thus used only the word “alleged molestation charges”. Please see: Jackson charges in full http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19389-1464844,00.html
With reference to your other questions:
Ejaculation is not a prerequisite. In fact, approximately 30% of rapists are unable to ejaculate.
Penetration of genitalia, however slight is sufficient to establish rape. In oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio) even penetration is not required.
The concept of “force” comes under the “legal consent designation. The common law says: The victim may submit by force, by gesture, or by threat of death, physical injury, pain or kidnapping to be inflicted upon the victim or a third party, or by any other means which would compel a reasonable person under the circumstances to submit. It is not required that the victim resist such force or threat to the utmost, or to resist if resistance would be futile or foolhardy, but the victim need resist only to the extent that it is reasonably necessary to make the victim`s refusal to consent known to the defendant.
[Do you have any evidence to prove this ?]
Top 25 countries and the total number of recorded rapes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
US tops the list with 89,110 rapes, followed by South Africa and Canada. India ranks fifth in that list with 15,468 rapes. Pakistan does not make the top 25 list, though it is the 5th most populous country in the world. The number of rapes appear to be less than 1250/year based on that data (still nothing to be proud off).
Few more stats for your perusal:
•Rape is the fastest growing violent crime in The United States. (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 1994)
•In the United States, a woman is raped every 6 minutes. (Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center of the National Victims Center, 1992)
•The rate of sexual assault in the United States is the highest of any industrialized nation in the world. (Reiso and Roth, 1993)
•1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual violence at some point in her lifetime. (Warshaw, R. 1988. I Never Called It Rape. Harper and Row).
•1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by age 18. (Walker, L. 1988. Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children)
•An estimated 92,700 men are forcibly raped each year in the United States. (Tjaden and Thoennes, 1998)
It is difficult to get the latest numbers for Pakistan. I’ll post as soon as I find them. An excerpt from the US State Department Report is attached for your perusal.
TITLE: PAKISTAN HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES, 1994
AUTHOR: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DATE: FEBRUARY 1995
[“Rape is a widespread problem, although there was a slight
decline in the reported incidence of rape during 1994 compared
to 1993. There were about 800 cases of rape reported in the
press during the year.”]
You can read the complete report at: http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1994_hrp_report/94hrp_report_sasia/Pakistan.html
[Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ? ]
The initial trial was handled by the Anti-terrorism court under the
Ordinance; “Anti-Terrorism (Amendment) Ordinance 1999”, for the purpose of providing a speedy trial for the case. That law provides that any act intended to create civil commotion would be triable in ATA court. In retrospect, that “speedy trial” created more problems than it solved.
Don’t get me wrong. I am on your side and have been on “Mai’s side” since the beginning.
Ref# 20
[No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse.]
I am aware of that and thus used only the word “alleged molestation charges”. Please see: Jackson charges in full http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19389-1464844,00.html
With reference to your other questions:
Ejaculation is not a prerequisite. In fact, approximately 30% of rapists are unable to ejaculate.
Penetration of genitalia, however slight is sufficient to establish rape. In oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio) even penetration is not required.
The concept of “force” comes under the “legal consent designation. The common law says: The victim may submit by force, by gesture, or by threat of death, physical injury, pain or kidnapping to be inflicted upon the victim or a third party, or by any other means which would compel a reasonable person under the circumstances to submit. It is not required that the victim resist such force or threat to the utmost, or to resist if resistance would be futile or foolhardy, but the victim need resist only to the extent that it is reasonably necessary to make the victim`s refusal to consent known to the defendant.
#24 Posted by premwalla on July 14, 2005 5:57:12 pm
Hi arjun,
Yes. I have to keep switching nics to keep them confused. It`s guerilla warfare. I get so mad sometimes that I feel like like .... never mind :)
I notice that you have been quite busy the last few days. That`s a lot of research, my friend.
Salim
Yes. I have to keep switching nics to keep them confused. It`s guerilla warfare. I get so mad sometimes that I feel like like .... never mind :)
I notice that you have been quite busy the last few days. That`s a lot of research, my friend.
Salim
#22 Posted by premwalla on July 14, 2005 5:04:51 pm
Muzzling people so they don`t embarrass the establishment is an age-old practice in Pakistan. Press censorship, selective editing, and coercion are commonplace in the Land of the Pure. What the military regime did is no different than what Chowk does. Messages and threads of individual interactors are blatantly erased, while those of their opponents, usually Chowk`s favorites (so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Pakis) are left intact. I guess this is one way to win arguments and present an untarnished image of the realm. What goes around comes around. The only difference is whose ox is being gored. A thousand curses on Pakis and their suppression of truth.
Salim
Salim
#21 Posted by Quaidon on July 14, 2005 2:52:07 pm
KHAMKHWA IS A KHASSEY
KHAmKHWA IS A KHASSEY
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO
KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
KHAmKHWA IS A KHASSEY
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO
KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
#20 Posted by freesoul on July 14, 2005 1:32:25 pm
nauman9 #18
`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``
No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse. There were witnesses alleging they saw MJ do something to someone. Their testimonies were discredited owing to their being interested parties.
`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``
No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse. There were witnesses alleging they saw MJ do something to someone. Their testimonies were discredited owing to their being interested parties.
#19 Posted by bbabu on July 14, 2005 12:42:09 pm
nauman9 #18
`` 3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out. ``
Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ?
`` 4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.``
Do you have any evidence to prove this ?
`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``
If Michael Jackson was not convicted it is lack of evidence. In USA a jury decides if a defendant is guilty. The jury is twelve of your fellow citizens.
`` 3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out. ``
Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ?
`` 4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.``
Do you have any evidence to prove this ?
`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``
If Michael Jackson was not convicted it is lack of evidence. In USA a jury decides if a defendant is guilty. The jury is twelve of your fellow citizens.
#18 Posted by nauman9 on July 14, 2005 10:42:30 am
Xari Jalil:
I agree with the sentiment reflected in the article. There is no doubt that putting Mai on exit control list was a lousy PR move on the part of the government. It back-fired.
I failed to acknowledge your effort as an author, initially. Please accept my apologies.
Few corrections for the records:
1) Mai was not raped by twelve men. A total of fourteen people were indicted, four for rape and the rest were from the tribal jirga for their role in the crime.
2) Hudood Ordinance was not passed thirty years ago (close! It passed in 1979).
3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out.
4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.
Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children.
I agree with the sentiment reflected in the article. There is no doubt that putting Mai on exit control list was a lousy PR move on the part of the government. It back-fired.
I failed to acknowledge your effort as an author, initially. Please accept my apologies.
Few corrections for the records:
1) Mai was not raped by twelve men. A total of fourteen people were indicted, four for rape and the rest were from the tribal jirga for their role in the crime.
2) Hudood Ordinance was not passed thirty years ago (close! It passed in 1979).
3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out.
4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.
Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children.
#17 Posted by bbabu on July 14, 2005 10:18:05 am
sifzal #14
`` I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves… ``
What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased ? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine.
`` Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself… ``
His comments were in poor taste.
`` What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on… ``
Tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
More people have died in Sudan than Iraq in the past 10 years. Yet you did not include Sudan.
`` I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…” ``
nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love.
`` I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves… ``
What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased ? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine.
`` Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself… ``
His comments were in poor taste.
`` What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on… ``
Tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
More people have died in Sudan than Iraq in the past 10 years. Yet you did not include Sudan.
`` I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…” ``
nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love.
#25 Posted by sifzal on July 15, 2005 6:09:56 am
Re: # 17
Dear bbabu
``What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine. ``
Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one...
``tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.``
over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest....
Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention
``I did not see Iraq included in your ratings when Saddam was in charge.``
He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve...
``nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love. ``
Every one is responsible for his own environment. I am doing whatever I am qualified and have gained experienced for. For peace...I have been trainer of the moderators to moderate on behalf of UNESCO around the world. Nevertheless, communicatring my message to madrassas is still on my wish list, which at the moment does not seems to be materializing soon.
My young fellow, you are not too far off the track..keep on researchoing and explore and experience with open mind...you will be amazed of what you were make believed and what is the truth...once you know...it is sad you are unable to tell the whole world about it...many died in the past many will in the future by the civilized societies...!
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
Dear bbabu
``What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine. ``
Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one...
``tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.``
over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest....
Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention
``I did not see Iraq included in your ratings when Saddam was in charge.``
He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve...
``nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love. ``
Every one is responsible for his own environment. I am doing whatever I am qualified and have gained experienced for. For peace...I have been trainer of the moderators to moderate on behalf of UNESCO around the world. Nevertheless, communicatring my message to madrassas is still on my wish list, which at the moment does not seems to be materializing soon.
My young fellow, you are not too far off the track..keep on researchoing and explore and experience with open mind...you will be amazed of what you were make believed and what is the truth...once you know...it is sad you are unable to tell the whole world about it...many died in the past many will in the future by the civilized societies...!
I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.
#16 Posted by ana on July 14, 2005 10:15:49 am
who tarnished pakistan`s ``image``.
pakistan tarnished pakistan`s ``image.``
pakistan tarnished pakistan`s ``image.``
#15 Posted by arjun_m on July 14, 2005 6:25:58 am
that`s right...the west is racist and ignorant...pakis, OTOH, are just innocent birds of peace....
New wave of British terrorists are taught at schools, not in the mountains
HIS family were perplexed when Shehzad Tanweer decided to drop out of his sports science course at Leeds Metropolitan University at the end of last year so he could travel to Pakistan.
He told them that he desperately wanted to join a group of friends from his local mosque on a two-month visit to a religious school near Lahore.
The 22-year-old joked with his parents that he would pick up his education when he came back, adding that it would also give him the chance to visit relatives in his father’s hometown, Faisalabad, which was only 100 miles away.
Hasib Hussain’s family thought him spending some time with his relatives in Pakistan might curb the teenager’s rebellious streak and stop him spending his time hanging around street corners in Holbeck, drinking beer with local youths.
His parents thought their plan had worked when Hussain got back, a much calmer figure and with a new found enthusiasm about pursuing his Muslim faith.
Both families are now left asking themselves whether it was their sons’ journeys to their homeland that corrupted them.
Tanweer’s uncle, Bashir Ahmed, has no doubts that it was faceless figures in Pakistan who radicalised his sports-mad nephew.
“He was such a calm, loving normal boy. Extremists must have got their hands on him,” the 65-year-old Leeds businessman said yesterday.
“We all thought he had gone to continue his education. I thought he just wanted to improve his pronunciation.
“It wasn’t him. It must have been forces behind him.”
British intelligence has asked its Pakistani counterparts urgently to trace where the young Britons went, and more crucially who they met, during their study tours.
Officers need to know if the four bombers were ever there at the same time, or attended the same radical training schools.
The Pakistani authorities this week angrily denied accusations from India that terror training camps were once more thriving inside their borders.
Natwar Singh, the Indian Foreign Minister, replied that he had the photographs to prove it.
Western intelligence agencies have also long been concerned about the network of madrassas, the hardline religious schools, which have been blamed for turning out a generation of young jihadis. One institution which has been under recent scrutiny is in the industrial city of Gujranwala, which is just north of Lahore — where Tanweer was heading.
This new generation of training centres are nothing like their predecessors which were run by al-Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks on the US and were sited in the inhospitable mountain ranges straddling the Afghan border.
Western volunteers lived rough in the desert with hundreds of other foreign recruits and were taught to handle weapons and explosives, as well as spending hours listening to tape recordings of Osama bin Laden and other zealots.
“Today the camps are more like youth hostels,” one young activist who attended a madrassa in southern Pakistan told The Times.
“Recruits don’t spend hours scrabbling about on outward bound courses. It is more like being in a school room.”
“Organisers don’t want to turn out warriors who can strip down a Kalashnikov rifle blindfolded. They want to shape the mind, not the body.
“They want their recruits to embrace the idea of giving their lives for their cause, and doing nothing more technical than triggering the bomb they carry.”
There are long periods of Koranic study but also what organisers call “the evolution of the jihad”, which teaches how wars are no longer a battle between rival armies.
Heroic accounts of the lives — and deaths — of insurgents in Iraq are told to the class to instruct recruits: “We fight the enemy our way.”
In some cases it is young Britons who have moved from Britain to make a new life for themselves in Pakistan who lecture their fellow citizens, “to make them feel more at ease”.
“These British lecturers know how to give practical instructions like ‘don’t go to well-known radical mosques in the UK as they are under police surveillance. Don’t wander into bookshops which sell violent vidoes and militant literature as they too are being watched’.
“We were told, ‘Continue being an ordinary John’,” the former activist said.
The bombers from the backstreets of Leeds followed their instructions to the letter.
They were always seen in baggy jeans, training shoes, short haircuts and were cleanshaven, even when they turned up at the local mosque for Friday prayers.
Tanweer’s family say they cannot remember him arguing about politics. Hussain’s relatives say there was nothing aggressive in his views about how British Muslims should behave.
Experts say there is little point trying to identify the groups who recruit the young Britons because nowadays they change their names and websites with bewildering frequency.
The Harakat al-Ansar group has had five names in the past two years.
The other practical problems for the security authorities is that there is such an enormous traffic of young Britons travelling to Pakistan to visit family that it is impossible for the police to keep tabs on them, particularly when the vast majority go there for entirely innocent reasons.
There are reports of new training centres springing up around Mansehra in the North West Frontier Province, though it is not known if any British volunteers have pitched up there.
Magnus Ranstorp, director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews in Scotland said: “Of course there are still training camps.
“I don’t think you can find fully-fledged training camps in Pakistan or even Afghanistan on the same level as we had before.
“But there are many remote areas, many places where the lack of governance can provide excellent training ground. It can be done in underground shelters, abandoned houses. You don’t need large facilities.”
Some Pakistani-based militant groups are reported to still scout for recruits at mosques among Muslim communities in Britain.
Smaller British mosques have their own links with madrassas in the Punjab and other regions of Pakistan though they insist these are genuine schools of Koranic study, not terror training camps.
Well known militant groups, lsuch as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul Mujahideen have operated openly in the past and in some cases with the military’s support, and boasted of their British recruits.
Mohammed Bilal, a Briton who was associated with Jaish-e-Mohammed, was the UK’s first suicide bomber when in Christmas Day 2000 he rammed a vehicle packed with explosives into an Indian military post in Kashmir.
Officially, the Pakistan government — a key ally of Britain and the US in the war on terror — insists they have eradicated the culture of terror camps inside their borders.
The experiences of Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain tell a different story.
New wave of British terrorists are taught at schools, not in the mountains
HIS family were perplexed when Shehzad Tanweer decided to drop out of his sports science course at Leeds Metropolitan University at the end of last year so he could travel to Pakistan.
He told them that he desperately wanted to join a group of friends from his local mosque on a two-month visit to a religious school near Lahore.
The 22-year-old joked with his parents that he would pick up his education when he came back, adding that it would also give him the chance to visit relatives in his father’s hometown, Faisalabad, which was only 100 miles away.
Hasib Hussain’s family thought him spending some time with his relatives in Pakistan might curb the teenager’s rebellious streak and stop him spending his time hanging around street corners in Holbeck, drinking beer with local youths.
His parents thought their plan had worked when Hussain got back, a much calmer figure and with a new found enthusiasm about pursuing his Muslim faith.
Both families are now left asking themselves whether it was their sons’ journeys to their homeland that corrupted them.
Tanweer’s uncle, Bashir Ahmed, has no doubts that it was faceless figures in Pakistan who radicalised his sports-mad nephew.
“He was such a calm, loving normal boy. Extremists must have got their hands on him,” the 65-year-old Leeds businessman said yesterday.
“We all thought he had gone to continue his education. I thought he just wanted to improve his pronunciation.
“It wasn’t him. It must have been forces behind him.”
British intelligence has asked its Pakistani counterparts urgently to trace where the young Britons went, and more crucially who they met, during their study tours.
Officers need to know if the four bombers were ever there at the same time, or attended the same radical training schools.
The Pakistani authorities this week angrily denied accusations from India that terror training camps were once more thriving inside their borders.
Natwar Singh, the Indian Foreign Minister, replied that he had the photographs to prove it.
Western intelligence agencies have also long been concerned about the network of madrassas, the hardline religious schools, which have been blamed for turning out a generation of young jihadis. One institution which has been under recent scrutiny is in the industrial city of Gujranwala, which is just north of Lahore — where Tanweer was heading.
This new generation of training centres are nothing like their predecessors which were run by al-Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks on the US and were sited in the inhospitable mountain ranges straddling the Afghan border.
Western volunteers lived rough in the desert with hundreds of other foreign recruits and were taught to handle weapons and explosives, as well as spending hours listening to tape recordings of Osama bin Laden and other zealots.
“Today the camps are more like youth hostels,” one young activist who attended a madrassa in southern Pakistan told The Times.
“Recruits don’t spend hours scrabbling about on outward bound courses. It is more like being in a school room.”
“Organisers don’t want to turn out warriors who can strip down a Kalashnikov rifle blindfolded. They want to shape the mind, not the body.
“They want their recruits to embrace the idea of giving their lives for their cause, and doing nothing more technical than triggering the bomb they carry.”
There are long periods of Koranic study but also what organisers call “the evolution of the jihad”, which teaches how wars are no longer a battle between rival armies.
Heroic accounts of the lives — and deaths — of insurgents in Iraq are told to the class to instruct recruits: “We fight the enemy our way.”
In some cases it is young Britons who have moved from Britain to make a new life for themselves in Pakistan who lecture their fellow citizens, “to make them feel more at ease”.
“These British lecturers know how to give practical instructions like ‘don’t go to well-known radical mosques in the UK as they are under police surveillance. Don’t wander into bookshops which sell violent vidoes and militant literature as they too are being watched’.
“We were told, ‘Continue being an ordinary John’,” the former activist said.
The bombers from the backstreets of Leeds followed their instructions to the letter.
They were always seen in baggy jeans, training shoes, short haircuts and were cleanshaven, even when they turned up at the local mosque for Friday prayers.
Tanweer’s family say they cannot remember him arguing about politics. Hussain’s relatives say there was nothing aggressive in his views about how British Muslims should behave.
Experts say there is little point trying to identify the groups who recruit the young Britons because nowadays they change their names and websites with bewildering frequency.
The Harakat al-Ansar group has had five names in the past two years.
The other practical problems for the security authorities is that there is such an enormous traffic of young Britons travelling to Pakistan to visit family that it is impossible for the police to keep tabs on them, particularly when the vast majority go there for entirely innocent reasons.
There are reports of new training centres springing up around Mansehra in the North West Frontier Province, though it is not known if any British volunteers have pitched up there.
Magnus Ranstorp, director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews in Scotland said: “Of course there are still training camps.
“I don’t think you can find fully-fledged training camps in Pakistan or even Afghanistan on the same level as we had before.
“But there are many remote areas, many places where the lack of governance can provide excellent training ground. It can be done in underground shelters, abandoned houses. You don’t need large facilities.”
Some Pakistani-based militant groups are reported to still scout for recruits at mosques among Muslim communities in Britain.
Smaller British mosques have their own links with madrassas in the Punjab and other regions of Pakistan though they insist these are genuine schools of Koranic study, not terror training camps.
Well known militant groups, lsuch as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul Mujahideen have operated openly in the past and in some cases with the military’s support, and boasted of their British recruits.
Mohammed Bilal, a Briton who was associated with Jaish-e-Mohammed, was the UK’s first suicide bomber when in Christmas Day 2000 he rammed a vehicle packed with explosives into an Indian military post in Kashmir.
Officially, the Pakistan government — a key ally of Britain and the US in the war on terror — insists they have eradicated the culture of terror camps inside their borders.
The experiences of Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain tell a different story.
#30 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 16, 2005 10:58:25 am
Re: # 15 Mr Arjun M ..you seems extremely happy due this English terror problem.
You enjoy miseries. You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. You should have sad for loss of life but you are having time of your life. Pakistanis are very sad ok. These are ENGLISH not pakistanise so is English problem ot Pakistani problem.
You are recist. The English court majistrate has declared ``Paki`` as detogatory word and person uttering such bad stuff can be prosecuted in England.
For your knowledge refer us as ``Pakistanies `` not pakis as you refer all time. Also refer as Pakistan or Islamic republics of Pakistan and not as ``Pakiland``.
I do not think you are going follow my suggestion.
Anyway you have time of life so please enjoy all time at others miseries.
I never refer Indoa/Bharat as Land of Kafirs or as some refer to India as bunch of chicken headed Kufrstan as we as decent, modest and cultured.
You enjoy miseries. You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. You should have sad for loss of life but you are having time of your life. Pakistanis are very sad ok. These are ENGLISH not pakistanise so is English problem ot Pakistani problem.
You are recist. The English court majistrate has declared ``Paki`` as detogatory word and person uttering such bad stuff can be prosecuted in England.
For your knowledge refer us as ``Pakistanies `` not pakis as you refer all time. Also refer as Pakistan or Islamic republics of Pakistan and not as ``Pakiland``.
I do not think you are going follow my suggestion.
Anyway you have time of life so please enjoy all time at others miseries.
I never refer Indoa/Bharat as Land of Kafirs or as some refer to India as bunch of chicken headed Kufrstan as we as decent, modest and cultured.
#14 Posted by sifzal on July 14, 2005 5:40:15 am
Dear All
I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves…
Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself…
A Wiseman said, “One can never benefit from mingling up with the low and evil mentality folks…just as no matter how many grapes you put on a thorny bush, they can only get destroyed but would not bring fruit to the thorns…
What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on…
I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…”
I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves…
Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself…
A Wiseman said, “One can never benefit from mingling up with the low and evil mentality folks…just as no matter how many grapes you put on a thorny bush, they can only get destroyed but would not bring fruit to the thorns…
What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on…
I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…”
#13 Posted by cayenne on July 14, 2005 12:59:36 am
Latest on the `war on terror`.The british PM says `extremists will be deported`.What if they`re born in britain but of pak descent ?.If i were pak, and in the UK, i would start packing.Every pak can be deemed to be a terrorist.We indians can offer to help you out by buying your properties at 50 pence on the pound.Better than nothing!!!.I try.
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