Hazrat Sarmad Shaheed: The Naked Sufi Martyr

Urstruly (#189):

Try to avoid making blanket statements. Your post seems to be indicative of your own state of mind.

I think “everybody is a liar”? Where are you getting this stuff from? And it was on basis of dictionary that I showed your interpretation to be incorrect … which you accepted. So why blame me now?

If after seeing violent views of mullah and their persecution of Ahamdis I am skeptical of ullema … why blame me?

I’ll review the stuff you posted … and respond as I find information. In the mean time, would you be kind enough to explain the hadith … “I am the last prophet and this mosque of mine is the last mosque” …? Doesn’t this hadith strongly support continuation of prophethood? You posted this hadith ... and are now quiet on it. What gives?

PS: I am curious … from where did you get this copy? You seem to be working very hard on this issue. Furthermore, don’t forget to mention (#198) that an Ahmadi may be imprisoned for claiming to be a Muslim … and an apostate may be killed in your Islamic state for simply leaving Islam ... and that you don’t think any of this is unfair … or constitutes persecution.

Re: # 197

Iwill accept that only on case by case basis and not as a principle. For example, in Pakistan, a Christian, who calls himself a Christain openly and never even pretended to be a Muslim, ever, may be prosecuated for violating the law of the land if he by defiles Quran or Holy Prophet (pbuh). Some may call it persecution and systematic persecution too. It really depends on which side of the fence you are standing,

[...we don`t know that either...]

since `we` don`t know...`we` can`t claim that `x group of people will not be persecuted if they stop calling themselves muslims`...i hope you accept that.

Re: # 195

or respective governments in Egypt and Iran might have a systematic policy of persecution of minorities, we don`t know that either.

#194:

[...Was the qualifier violated? I don`t know? And I asked you if you know then give me some pointers...]

the `qualifier` is `calling themselves muslims`, right? are you suggesting that the `incidents` were probably provoked by the fact that the bahais suddenly calling themselves muslims thereby violating the qualifer?

[...He also said that I couldn`t because they do not invite Muslims to their places of worship...]

there is a bahai place of worship in new delhi...there is no guard at the gate asking people`s religion before letting them in.

Re: # 193

We have already discussed this. The main qualifier for the condition that was put forth was, as you quoted `` `if x group of people stop calling themselves muslims when they follow practices that we don`t consider islamic, we will not persecute them``. I also added that I do not know the background of incidents that happened in Egypt and Iran. Was the qualifier violated? I don`t know? And I asked you if you know then give me some pointers.

My personal experience with Bihaiis is that with a classmate who originally belonged to Baluchistan and was studying in Karachi with me. He had a very Muslim name and I had no idea about his faith until one day when we were going somewhere on my bike, he asked me to stop by at a Bihaii temple. He had to take care of some quick errand there. At that time I had very little knowledge about bihaii faith and I was of an opinion that it was some off shoot of Shia doctrine. Keeping his name in mind I asked him if I could see his ``mosque`` from inside. First he corrected me that it was not a mosque but a (.-.-.--.-.) (I have forgotten what word did he use - probably Maa`bad. He also said that I couldn`t because they do not invite Muslims to their places of worship. He also vhemently said that although his name sounded Muslim he wasn`t. He reiterated that he was Bihaii not Muslim. In Baluchistan and Karachi there is a considerable population of Bihais, he told me that number in Karachi which I have forgotten - probably 5000+ but I have never heard any hostile remarks about them in any part of Pakistan. He moved to US later and he and his family now liked to be called with names like joe, bob and brenda etc.

#192:

you argued along the lines of - `if x group of people stop calling themselves muslims when they follow practices that we don`t consider islamic, we will not persecute them`... and you gave the example of bahais to imply that since `they have stopped calling themselves muslims, we couldn`t care less about what their beliefs are`

i gave you examples of continued persecution of bahais, the destruction of their holy places, tombs, houses, killings, etc...in both a sunni country and a shia country implying that you still persecute them.

so now you can either argue that whatever is happening to bahais in iran and egypt is not persecution, or take your original argument back.

Re: # 191

I am not sure what your question is. I told you that I am unaware of the background of the incidents that you have quoted. And even if I find out the background then what am I required to do?

urstruly,

what happened to the discussion about bahais? are you evaluating shia doctrine, sunni doctrine or...muslim doctrine?

Naqshbandi (#188):

You are changing your story.

I reviewed the link you posted. What it says is different from the original claim you made (which I’ll avoid repeating).

The claim in question … as I’ve repeated … was found to be without merit by beerader Urstruly. Can you substantiate it? Once we are done with it, we can review your next claim. Agreed?

I hope you see how words, ideas, stories get twisted … and fabricated. This applies also to your favorite … the WMD issue. And you have a problem with the White House??

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As a side note … ullema at your web-site also think that Jewish-Qadiani lobby had a hand in Dr. Salam getting the nobel prize. Click to read juicy details:

Click [Dr. Salam and Nobel Prize … according to ullema.]

Should I believe this also???

Re: # 187 sattar

sometimes I find your arrogance on the verge of pathelogically insanity. Everybody except you is a liar, crook, or out there to harm you. You do not belive in dictionaries. You do not belive in explanations and tell me you don`t believe this either. This is a photocopy of the index of Mirza Sahib`s book ``Roohani Khazain Volume 16`` (Heavenly Treasures - some treasures eh) where he himself has explained what he means by word Baghiya. Is there any doubt now what he meant by this word. As he explanation goes, he means that those households where there are women of bad character the men become ``Dayuth``; the word Dayuth is another epithet which is used to describe a man who invites other men to his wife for sexual congress. Give it up because now I wont.

http://www.irshad.org/exposed/death.php

This was the website I posted the info from although I have heard and read the same from countless other sources too both online and offline.

Urstruly (#184),

If you ascribe additional meaning to what I say, that’s your problem, not mine.

If Naqshbandi fails to support his claims, they become invalid. Right?? I pointed out that you (Urstruly) too looked into this claim, and found them to be without merit. So what`s the problem here?

Similarly, you failed to substantiate your claim on “children of prostitutes” issue. Which renders your claim invalid. Why is this so difficult for you to understand???

Can we now review your claims of thorough research, your sources on “children of prostitutes” issue, and the “last prophet and last mosque” hadith? Or would you rather avoid these topics?

Urstruly and Naqshbandi,

YOU ARE NOT WORTH A PENNY IF YOU REMIAN EVASIVE AND DO NOT ANSWER

WHAT KIND OF IRFAN IS OBTAINED BY REMAINING NAKED

WHAT KIND OF MAJZOOB HE WAS, WHAT IS MAJZOOB?

I can see you are willing to talk about any other divergent topic, but

NOT THE ARTICLE, PIECE OF SCRAP YOU WROTE.

Mr Urstruly, # 180

I dont know how much this story of Noor-ud-din is stretched/extended. Accurate historical account of the incident narrates that there was actually such an attempt. Now, if the tunnel went as far as Holy Prophet feet is pure myth and falsehood.

What noor-ud-din did was a brillant administrative action at that time, it achieved the purpose at that time, it solved the problem at that time. It enahnced the security of that time. If one is a king at that time, and he is entrusted with administration of a state, then prime responsiblity is keeping peace and avoiding disturbance, avoiding any isssue which will have damaging repurcussions.

Apart from that, as a Muslim, safeguarding resting place of Holy Prophet is prime objective of any Muslim.

Now the times has changed, the threat which was present in noor-ud-din time, is not present in that form any more. With modern security/electronic survalence etc, that objective of safeguarding Masjid Nabwi is established much better. It does not require restricting all and sundry from even setting foot in medina. Off course be cautious and take all necessary safety measures. but DO NOT GET STUCK IN OLD TIME.

Action of noor-ud-din was APPROPRIATE AT THAT TIME, NOT NOW.

Re: # 183

You have a bad habbit of twisting ones words, which is in line with the vile Quadiani practices. I said that the circumstances of Mirza Sahibs death on several accounts from either sides are unsubstantiated to me and me alone . I cannot speak on behalf of other people and thus my ignorance should not be taken as an evidence that something may or may not have happened.

By the way, I do not like to discuss Mirza Sahib`s death, its cricumstances or anything realted to it. I do not want any conclusions drawn from whatever the circumstances might be - death is an inevitability that may occur anywhere; it will happen to us all no matter how much we try to control its circumstances. So even if Mirza Sahib died in a compromising situation, it means nothing to me; unless God Himself tells me that he caused the death of Mirza Sahib in such and such circumstances because he pretended to be a false prophet, any speculation on his death is a superstition of my mind or my bigotry. I do not believe in superstition and even though I am a fairly above average kind of bigot I try to keep it in check as well.

As far as the meaning of ``Zuriyat-ul-baghiyya`` is concerned I have provided you with an evidence from an English/Arabic dictionary, whereas to support your claim you have provided no third party evidence. All we have is your word, which practically means nothing. So this discussion is closed from my side until you support your claim with more than mere words.