Hazrat Sarmad Shaheed: The Naked Sufi Martyr

Re: # 118

No thanks. We have had this discussion before and we have exploited each and every aspect of this hadith. The intention of my last post was not to engage in any kind of discussion, but to see if you were really serious with your prepostorous criteria of checking the truth of one`s claims of prophethood. Don`t you see what kind of non-sense you blurt out without giving it a second thought. So you are suggesting that in order to check the truth of one`s claim of prophethood we must subject him to a horrible death and in case he survives we must believe him and if he dies.....

That reminds me of a punjabi proverb that goes like this ``siyaana kaaN gooN te hi digda eh`` (tr: Clever crow when falls, falls for the shit)

Urstruly (#114),

Finally, after some effort, you’ve raised interesting points. Here are my responses.

Prophets and prophethood

A person simply claiming to be a prophet does not prove him right. One of the criterion is mentioned in Quran … where Allah claims that He will destroy a person who associates lies with Allah.

Throughout history of Islam many individuals have claimed to be prophets. History is a witness that each of them … as early as Muslaima from ~1400 years ago … to individuals merely 15 years ago … was brutally killed and humiliated. Each and every one … except Mirza Sahib of Qadian.

As a side note … jihad against Muslaima was declared not for claims of prophethood … but for mutiny against the community. His getting humiliated and killed in process is Quranic proof of his falsehood.

Moving along …

Making his claims in a bold manner, Mirza Sahib claimed … “I swear in the name of my Lord, in Whose hand is my life, that I am Issa-ibne-Mariam sent for reformation of mankind …”. In no uncertain terms he also claimed to the follower prophet to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imam Mahdi (Guided One) of this age. He made his claims in the 14th Islamic century … which has been the expected century for the appearance of Issa-ibne-Mrriam and Imam Mahdi.

In his lifetime approximately 400,000 people accepted Mirza Sahib. Enemies plotted to kill him, planned to crush the Ahmadi-Muslim movement, and violently persecuted Ahmadis. None of these designs succeeded and Ahmadi Movement in Islam continues to flourish across the globe to this day. Jammat has established centers in almost each country as it supports ~14,000 hospitals, centers, schools, mosques all over the world. It has even setup a satellite system which broadcasts Islamic TV programs in most major languages across the globe, 24 hours a day. All this is funded by private donations (jamaat chandaa) from Ahmadis. Three kings who took persecution of Ahmadis to new heights … namely King Faisal, Bhutto, and Zia … died most humiliating deaths. We are also blessed with Khilafat (for 97 years now) … which is promised in Quran by Allah Almighty to those who obey Allah and His Messenger, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Our khalifa is not an ameer, or a prince, or a sheikh. He is Khalifa … just as it is mentioned specifically in Quran (in Surah-e-Noor, I think).

It is not a matter of mere claims by a person … but it involve signs of divine support for Allah’s prophets and his community. And this is the difference between Mirza Sahib and other claimants of prophethood.

More later …

[You are quick to quote Quran when dealing with others (#115). Why not with me? I am getting jealous … or should I take it to mean you don’t have the galls …?]

Re: # 116

and by the curse Allah put on him, mirza qadiani died of cholera -as testified by his own son--and with excreta coming out of both ends...hence Allah`s Word is proved right after all.

Re: # 116

Here we go again..........

So if that is the criteria then Jesus (pbuh) was a false prophet too, since according to Christian beliefs he was humiliated and martyred at cross. What about Zachry (pbuh), he was as a matter of fact sawed off from top to bottom; there are few others we know by name who were thrown in front of hungry lions - nailed to the trees - thrown off the cliffs, burnt alive, all false prophets?

And also thru this criteria Elijah Mohammad (Nation of Islam), Mohammad Ali (Babi religion of persia), and Ali Hussain (Bihai`i) claimed prophethood but didn`t die horrible deaths, so they must be true prophets too.

Urstruly #101:

You are now getting philosophical … apparently this discussion is causing you much grief.

Your assumptions against Ahmadis are valid today just as similar assumptions were valid against early Muslims 1400 years ago. Do you see the parallel?

What about rivers flowing from Prophet’s fingers? And reappearance of a dead prophet from the sky? No comments? At least, explain to me the hadith you yourself quoted (#76) … on which you are now silent.

Are you now getting cold feet? Will you continue to dance like a eunuch?

Re: # 113

yes there is always a parallel in history. I see the parallel of this situation with that when Mussailma Kazzaab (Mussailma the Liar) and several other claimed false prophethood after the death of Holy Prophet (pbuh) and companions of Prophet (pbuh) decalred Jihad against all of them. According to your belief system they must be true prophets of god as well, now wouldn`t they? Is there something in your belief system that tells you that they were false prophets - should we have accepted them as well - please explain.

By the way I have never posted any disparaging remarks about Mirza Sahib ever.

I am not interested in discussing your belief system with you. Your religion may be the last chance for the salvation of mankind but I don`t care. I`ve had enough discussion with you already on every subject. Ask hamidm, he is an expert in playing broken records over and over again.

Naqshbandi (re #81):

Filth you posted about Mirza Sahib is indicative of your filthy mind. There are a few problems with your post:

- Firstly, the original claim you made against Mirza Sahib is different from what you are posting now. Urstruly had earlier looked into this claim and agreed it is without merit.

I challenged you to validate your claim. You failed. Lacking the decency to accept your error … you became silent. You acted like a two-bit eunuch and a coward.

- Secondly, I could not find the very first reference you cited. I checked other pages of the book, but to no avail. So I must ask … from where are you getting this information? I don’t think you have read the actual material … and are merely copying incorrect information from a hate-filled web-site. Can you provide a link to this web-site?

Urstruly too made disgusting claims against Mirza Sahib. But when asked for references, he too failed and became silent.

Will you continue to dance around the issue like a two-bit eunuch? Or do you have some galls?

sattar2: urstruly is right about you qadianis: `hum to doobay sanam, tujhe bhi lay doobaingay` is what you are trying to do. you hubris and kufr is so great that you think you are the only ones who correctly understand qur`anic verses and hadith whereas your interpretations are not supported by a single scholar of islam in history from the time of the sahaba to the present day.

**
zahraj: dear, this was a translation. I therefore gave all the references which were in the original article too: these constituted the footnotes which were references to names of books etc, mostly in Urdu or Farsi.

Re: # 107
[you hubris and kufr is so great that you think you are the only ones who correctly understand qur`anic verses and hadith]

...strong language mr. naqshbandi...apparently you have the divine authority to decide who is kafir and who is not...

[ whereas your interpretations are not supported by a single scholar of islam in history]

... you maybe surprised to know that these so-called scholars were always on the lookout for the highest bidder...

Finally, i asked you to prove from quran, your viewpoint that zulaykha found the manifestation of allah(swt) in hazrat yusuf, which in my opinion is`kufr`...but you have very conviniently avoided the reference to surah 12 and verses 23 - 29...

Re: # 108

It is not the matter of ``divine authority``, it is a simple matter of judgement and identification. When we see a duck that quacks and waddle like duck, we don`t use some sort of divine authority to call it a duck - we cast our judgement. Please leave these petty PC ideals alone, which are impractical and stupid. Take for example, yourself when you write ``... you maybe surprised to know that these so-called scholars were always on the lookout for the highest bidder... ``, so by insulting the whole cadre of Islamic scholars with just one stroke of pen, did you use a ``divine authority`` to call them a merchandise or did you use your judgement by examining each and every one of them (which of course is not possible without divine powers, right?).

Please grow out of these petty things and see what clamity is facing us eye to eye.

Re: # 109
...do you agree that yusuf was the manifestation of allah in zulaikha`s eyes...?

Re: # 111

No I think it is just a poetic expression and many poets have created masterpieces around this subject. As the story goes, Zuleikha was expelled by her husband Aziz (Pharoa of Egypt) after her failed attempt at seducing Yusuf (pbuh). Years went by while Yusuf was incarcerated, relaesed, and finally took over the position of Aziz. He remained beutiful and handsome throughout the years while Zuliekha grew old in misery and lived in a shack outside the city. The persian poet Jaami in his epic writes that during that time she made an idol in the likeness of Yusuf and sort of ``worshipped` it during all those years until one day she felt that Yusuf was coming. At that time she broke the idol, fell down on her knees and begged Allah that He sends Yusuf her way. Her prayer was accepted and Yusuf stopped by her shack still unaware who she was even after seeing her. Jaami writes:

This is when Zuliekha feels that Yusuf was coming to her, she addresses the idol in these words:

``O thou who hast broken mine honor`s urn,
Thou stone of offense wheresoever I turn,
I should smite

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for thy falsehood has ruined my rest

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with the stone thou art made of, the heart in my breast.
The way of misfortune too surely I trod
When I bowed down before thee and made thee my god;
When I looked up to thee with wet eyes in my woe,
I renounced all the bliss which both worlds can bestow.
From thy stony dominion my soul will I free,
And thus shatter the gem of thy power and thee.``


God I have never read poetry so fine. Just imagine what it would be like in its original language. Read on - and when Zuleikha felt that her prayers had been answered and she felt Yusuf might now be coming she repents for her idolatory in these words:

``O God, who lovest the humble,
Thou To whom idols, their makers, their servants bow;
`Tis to the light which Thy splendor lends
To the idol`s face that its worshiper bends.
Thy love the heart of the sculptor stirs,
And the idol is graven for worshipers.
They bow them down to the image, and think
That they worship Thee as before it they sink.
To myself, O Lord, I have done this wrong,
If mine eyes to an idol have turned so long.
Thou hast washed the dark stain of my sin away;
Now restore the lost blessing for which I pray.
May I feel my heart free from the brand of its woes,
And cull from the garden of Yussuf a rose.``


Note the highlighted stanza, where Zuleikha explains how she saw the image of God in the idol`s face and how wrong she was because.......

Re: # 109
urstruly...
bullshit is the word that comes to mind seeing your defence of a quack...

Hadith???.Kya hai?.I want more `Nekkid`.....

Asif:

Footnote kis language main hae? Is that English, Arabic or Urdu?

Why did your write-up create a spasm amongst the religious and irreligious? In the end, there is no conclusion that one can draw from their learned observations and readings. Do you disagree?

Naqshbandi (re #99):

You’ve posted ahadith incorrectly or out of context. Read on (longish post)…

- On the first hadith: My understanding is that it refers to prophets who brought shariah (read on to understand why). With revelation of Quran, no more prophets will bring new shariah. That is so say, the last brick is now in place.

- Second hadith you quoted …”You stand to me in the same relation as Haaroon alayhis salaam stood to Moosaa alayhis salaam, except that there is no prophet after (ba’ad) me.”

Review the context here. The dear Prophet was leaving Ali in charge as he himself was leaving town. To impress Ali’s authority upon believers, the Prophet (pbuh) likened him to prophet Haroon who was in charge while Moses was away.

This would have led people to conclude that Ali, like Haroon, is also a prophet. This potential misunderstanding was explained away in the second half … “except that there is no prophet after (ba’ad) me”.

Arabic word “ba’ad” also has meaning of “behind”. The prophet was clarifying that though Ali is in charge … his capacity is not that of a prophet.

Conversely, saying that “Ali is in charge” … and following it up with “no more prophets will ever appear” makes no sense. These two are completely unrelated issues, unless you accept explanation I have proposed.

- Similar mistranslation applies to the third hadith you quoted

- Fourth hadith you quoted … about “last prophet and last people” … is very much like “last prophet and last mosque” (see post #100 for details). What does “last” mean here? I have asked you several times … but never got an answer.

- Regarding hadith #5: If/when Issa-ibne-Marriam reappears … he too would claim to be a prophet. Would you call him a liar also? He may kill you … you know … he is supposed to be very hard on disbelievers …

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now … a few ahadith and references to counter your views …

- The dear Prophet (pbuh) reportedly said that Abu Bakr is the most righteous of his followers, except one who is a prophet.

- The dear Prophet called Ali khatam-ul-auliya.

- In hadith regarding appearance of Issa-ibne-Marriam … prophet (pbuh) foretold appearance of a prophet who will bear spiritual resemblance to Issa.

- In Sayutti’s book, a saying of Hazrat Ayesha (ra) is recorded: “Do call him khatam-un-
nabiyeen, but do not say there will be no prophet after him”.

- I have come across Arabic references where “khattam-al-muhaqaqeen”, “khattam-ul-muhadaseen”, “khattam-ul-mufasereen” … refer to a person’s high rank in a particular field.

As for the views of well-reputed scholars … click away. Your ullema’s claim about unanimity in accepting end of prophethood is a big, fat lie.

[Seal of Prophets]