Ayodhya Back On Top

hey Charlie, lets hear your ``equal-equal`` theory with the British, I know you regret it, but they just had it coming didnt they?

Oh gosh, now London.

Terrible.

#69 by Cadbury

[......soldiers just like yours (most of ours are actually better)]

Well yeah, your soldiers are definitely better, but not at fighting. They are good at grabbing plots, running the Fauji Foundation and dairies, PIA, WAPDA, Railways, Telecom, PCB, etc. Anything but fighting, cuz we`ve all seen how they tucked their tails and took to their heels from Kargil despite holding the commanding heights. Contrast this with how tenaciously Indian soldiers have held on to Siachen despite numerous attempts by your soldiers to reclaim it.

[..and buying stuff frm you well incase you haven`t NOTICED we have the MONEY too to spend and you know the best reason YOU ARE CHEAP.]

Where was this wisdom when you folks were buying Indian equipment from Dubai despite the added costs when you could have so easily bought stuff right at the Wagah border?

[..incase you`ve forgotten we are always 24 hours earlier than you in our freedon from brits and ofcourse how can i forget YOU.]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Is that all you have to show despite being a day older than India? I can only pity you!

pakis are a wet dreamin

wonder if they noticd the feds in the background....

#83 by Charlie on July 6, 2005 4:30pm PT


arjun, bongdong, Mike! All of you are good at cut and paste. AND there is a lot of garbage on the net.


just cause there is a lot of garbage on the web, it doesn`t make what I post garbage...

Show me where I`ve posted anything other than a report from a western news source(or from paki news sources)...i rarely. if ever, post from the evil bania hindoo media...

face it: you don`t like the cut paste because it shine the light on the reality that is Pakiland...a jihadi loving terrorist state whose citizens are disabused of their peace loving self-image everytime they land at a western airport....

This is the only solution to peace in South Asia.One thing that we can do is `live in peace` by not being jealous of one another ,stop interfering in each other`s matters and stop making plans to hurt each other`s economies.OR pakistan should, if the central asian and middle eastern countries will permit it, try to become a part of that group of nations and remove it`s focus from india.India is in itself a grouping of 35 nations.We form a `bloc` so to speak and we do not need to align with anybody to gain representation.Pakistan and bangladesh do need to align themselves with a group of nations to increase their bargaining position and productivity.SAARC`s aims were just that.But we all know it now as an abject failure.Pakistan should realign itself away from India.Bangladesh can go to hell in a handbasket!.

Re: # 88, Temporal sirji, OK, point well taken.

The reason why I, and many other Indians, refrain from using the ``M/Muslim`` word when referring to the terrorists is because it would simply be incorrect to lump all Muslims in India together with the specific Deobandi/Wahhabi lot emanating, frankly, more from Saharanpur area than from across the border.

Please appreciate a few things, at the point of my being repetitive, and since you have traveled extensively in India, do try to explain it to your Pakistani friends also?

a) Almost every non-Muslim Indian will have around 10%-20% friends / acquaintances / people s-he meets on street who will be Muslim. How many of these Muslims are likely to be the sort who have scant respect for human lives, very few. How many of these Muslims choose to remain silent or are silenced (not by Hindus, but by the more violent-fundoo Muslims?), plenty. Who feels sad and bad about this?

If, as an Indian, I refrain from driving this point in with my Muslim friends, it is because, simply, that is the truth. Why hurt them more?

b) Muslim women as a group in India, excluding the ultra-educated lot, and that would make almost 50% of Muslims in India, are sought to be and usually are subjugated by Muslim male-dominated society. Hindus or non-Muslim Indians don`t make these rules, for the MPLB, do they?

(Even the worst of anti-Hindu majority Muslim-whiners in India would seldom take cudgels up for these Muslim women, on their behalf. I hate bringing the Imrana issue up, but you see the truth up front.)

On the other hand, in parts of the country where Muslim women are striking out rapidly as equal parts of the larger society, it is the male-dominated Muslim leadership which makes an issue about contamination of young minds, of the ``Hindufication`` of Muslim youth.

As an Indian, why would I include 50% of a group which is simply not in any way remotely terrorist, which is merging into Indian society faster than any other group lately?

c) There were reports after the latest Ayodhya incident that there was large-scale mobilisation of troops and para-military forces as well as police. I saw it, so did many others.

This mobilisation in India is done irrespective of religion. At thanas, army camps, para-military formations. On ships, airfields and border posts. Even at Ayodhya/Faizabad, for that matter.

The commandos on duty at the jam-packed Delhi Airport yesterday morning included a few Muslims, all of whom displayed not just their name-tags but also their religious marks, (turbans, red-threads, black-threads, crosses . . .), bearded and clean-shaven, but smartly strutting around like the rest of the commandos, with their fingers on triggers. They are there to protect all of us, right?

A representative percentage of the passengers, airline staff, officials, everybody, would also be Muslim. One of the least reported but true facts of life has been the number of visibly Muslim women stepping out of the Old Delhi area in the last 3-4 days to use the new Delhi Metro. A friend of mine from Chitli Qabr area tells me that this was not a coincidence, these women are getting a simple and solid message across to any terrorist who targets the Metro, where a large percentage of the passengers would be Muslim too.

Would it be fair to use the word ``terrorist Muslim``, when 5%-15% of uniformed forces, passengers, officials, in India are Muslims?

d) I have been under fire in the course of my rather varied life, and let me assure you, when you have even the faintest suspicion that the other guy is on a suicide mission, you kill and then stand far away since you have done your job, waiting for the bomb disposal guys to come and do their job.

At that moment, you are not worried about the religion of your back-up buddy or the suicide bomber. You save the life of your buddy and you kill the terrorist. Simple.

+++

The fundamental change taking place across India, which is now much more than the Indian Government by the way, is that society has realised that improvement and change go hand in hand.

So, when I get reports that the figures for arrival, auction and despatch of the NDDB / Amul / Safal and other linked co-ops which are transforming the agricultural / dairy / livestock / meats revolution in India all over India and especially in Guajarat, were absolutely steady despite the Ayodhya attack, all over the country, then I want you to understand - a change is sweeping India.

Because the real change in Indian society, where religion, community and caste barriers are being breeched, is in the rural agricultural sector.

Next time you are in India, I shall take you to one of these auctions, actually you can see a few on the Internet too.

+++

Temporal, we know who the terrorists are.

As for the ISI, chances are that it will consume Pakistan first. Sad, but true.

+++

#86 by bongdongs

“I guess they didnt tech you math at you madrassa, here repeat after me”

hehehe!
Bongi…stupid as ever… repeat after me…
Assam Rifles…
Rings a bell? Bongi…
hehehe...

#88

we have had the whole Bombay bomb blast trial going on for ages, various transcripts are on the web. Indian home/external ministries has various web pages with info.

for example for the parliament attack:
http://www.indianembassy.org/new/parliament_dec_13_01.htm

You see it doesnt matter, all this commision reports, trials etc whats the use?

# 87 Veeru:

…understand and agree… and for the most part we are on the same pages where it concerns those who have scant respect for human lives...their’s or other civilians’…and you want me to be more explicit than you?...well, for one, why cannot you utter the m world?

…yes, muslims have been held hostage to the regressive forces…in India, in Pakistan…heck everywhere…how they overthrow this shackle is a very serious and involved discussion and effort…for another time…

and when i asked that question if you notice other Pakistanis also supported me…at least one very publicly here…

when i asked in #68* Why cannot the Indians try and capture the terrorists alive and then internationally televise their trials...the world must learn of their identity...this will put greater pressure on the entities that support them... you replied:

“It is very difficult to take prisoners, if they have decided that they are on suicide missions. I am aware of the ground realities in such cases.”

…let us say we are all aware of the suicidal intent and nature of those terrorists….yes i have no compunction in using the t word veeru!…

but

there needs a fundamental change of mentality if not policy by your government…it is not impossible to aim for live capture…if they are taken alive and undergo public judicial trials… the pointers …names of organizations and governments that may be implicated would go a long way in helping the peace lovers everywhere and they can mobilize more effectively in putting effective pressure on the guilty party/parties…

(just as an example…that temple attacker near ahmedabad…last year?...one or two took refuge on the roof…they could have been flushed out alive) (just as an example…that temple attacker near ahmedabad…last year?...one or two took refuge on the roof…they could have been flushed out alive...and if they had named names...it would have helped put pressure on their backers and supporters)

digression: in most knee jerk reactions in your country ISI is blamed... i need not tell you they are a power unto themselves in Pakistan....if they are publicly and fairly exposed... through transparent judicial process of the captured terrorists then it would tremendously help the powers that be -- mushy or a future civilian in curbing the runaway powers of ISI

t

Temporal ji, why did it come now? Well, when did it stop?

Let us not mince any words - there are branches of Islamic groups in India, as elsewhere, which are simply not moving with the times. That was fine, as long as the pump and fountain of funds from the oilfields was in position.

But now, Ali Baba is unable to send more, too. Peter Pan taking it all away. Right? Right.

A good carpenter or driver stands to earn more in India now than in Saudi Arabia. Think about the deeper issues behind that. Suddenly, for a large number of people, being from a ``particular religion`` is no longer the criteria to travel to Saudi/UAE to get a job, earn a living.

Therefore, you stay in India and you work. You put in a solid 8-12 hours a day, get paid more. And the guy who doesn`t stop work 5 times a day to point in a particular direction to pray gets the job. Get the drift?

So, the gap, economic, social, cultural - choose any or more - is widening in India. The fundoos are finding it difficult to keep their flock together. The growth of media - tv, internet, print, radio - is bringing in questions.

One question is:- would Imrana have dared complain even a few years ago? For that matter, would Mukhtar Mai have dared complain?

Been a while since you`ve visited India, T, the difference especially in the non-metro towns is amazing.

That`s why.

The Jama Masjid is favoured destination for most when they reach Delhi. The filth and corruption around it is symbolic.

Next time, head for the equally historic Fatehpuri Masjid not too far away too. See the difference?

+++

It is very difficult to take prisoners, if they have decided that they are on suicide missions. I am aware of the ground realities in such cases.

+++

When they do manage to capture some alive, then getting information out of them is far more important than any publicity. You see, the authorities and the rest of the country already know who the bad guys are. For that matter even the Pakistanis, here on chowk and everywhere else, know who the bad guys are but then denial, denial, denial.

+++

#85

I guess they didnt tech you math at you madrassa, here repeat after me

hindu opressive occupation army numbers 1.2 million
hindu occupation army numbers 800,000 in Kashmir
hindu illegal army numbers 500,000 on Chinese Border
hindu raping army numbers 500,000 in Assam

how many armymen did the Paki liar pull out of thin air?

He!he!!he!! the virtuous Army…

The people of Manipur have been feeling disturbed and agitated for a long time against such cases of human right violations like fake encounters, custodial deaths and cases of rapes perpetrated by the Indian Army. Some months back a school going girl was raped by the Indian army at Jiribam in Manipur. The crime was happened on the way when the girl went to give lunch to her father at his work place. Later on the girl killed herself, but she revealed the details to her mother before she died.
On the 10th July, one day before Manorama was murdered, the dead body of one Zamkholet Khongsai, a pastor of Saichang village was found by the villagers buried at Laiton Ching some 17 kms away form the Yairipok police station. Sources said he set out as usual with a slinged basket to work in the paddy field. Some times after he left Assam Rifles personnel came in about 10 vehicles and enquired his whereabouts. Later on at around 10 a.m. the villagers heard some gun shots, and Zamkholet never returned. The villagers searched for Zamkholet and his dead body was found on the 10th of this month. The dead body bore three bullet injury marks. An old woman whose residence was not far from the burial site revealed that the Assam Rifles personnel had taken a spade from her at night on the 8th July. The villagers and in fact the whole of Manipur point accusing fingers to the Assam Rifles.
The Manorama case has happened to be a turning point, an outlet to burst out the long pent up anguish of the people, the women in particular against the Indian army. A hurriedly formed joint body of 32 NGOs which is spearheading the movement called a 48 hr bandh from the 12th to the midnight of the 14th July. On the 15th July widely respected women leaders well known by the public disrobed themselves naked in public in front of the Assam Rifles main gate at Kangla at around 10 a.m. They carried festoon written ‘Indian Army Rape Us’ and ‘Indian Army Take Our Flesh’. They shouted ‘We are all mothers of Manorama’. Overwhelmed by the emotion some of them fainted on the ground. Police personnel could get near the agitating women. It took some time for the women police to come and console these women. It was an unprecedented form of protest chosen as the last resort right on the face of the spiraling crimes and shameful incidents of human right violations committed by the Indian army.
Assam is occupied by 250,000-500,000 soldiers, drawn from distant, unsympathetic regions of the vast subcontinent. This aggressive force ``doesn`t speak Assamese... and they`re very rude,`` states Kalita. ``They`ve committed terrible atrocities on hundreds of people in the last 20-25 years.`` Human Rights Watch defines his accusation: ``Villagers have been threatened, harassed, raped, assaulted and killed by soldiers attempting to frighten them into identifying militants.`` Soldiers zealously guard the 725-mile oil artery that pumps black gold out of resentful Assam.

More
Naked women protest...The holy army as in the holy cow army... hehehe
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/21mani.htm

Any body looking for a list of Dalit children and women killed by pious hindus?
On request.. whenever, wherever...

hehehe...

#83

cut the crap, so do you deny there is any involvement of Pakistani state agencies in these incents which are post 9/11?

Re: # 77

Jang! While writing the above posts, you, JG, Stuka and few other Indians were constantly in my mind. You are quite reasonable guys. I am sorry If you got hurt by my posts.

Sorrily, most of the Indians (and may be most of the Pakistani do it for India also) like arjun, Veeresh and Mike keep on druming similar thing without realizing that they are looking quite funny for that. I was pissed of by their atitude and hence I started all above things.

This explanation however doesn`t mean that I back out from my above statements. I still believe that Indian psychology is not very different from Pakistani psychology. Most of the Indians are Hinduvta Jihadis. Atleast, on this forum where quite educated people come, it is very true.

arjun, bongdong, Mike! All of you are good at cut and paste. AND there is a lot of garbage on the net. Keep it up. It helps me knowing more about theory behind popularity of RSS, BJP, VHP.

I am sorry for the dead children and civilians. At the same time you should be sorry for dead civilians due to RAW acivities in Pakistan.

#78 by Charlie on July 6, 2005 3:43pm PT


After 9/11 however, situation has changed a lot.


What`s changed is that the mass deportation and gitmo vacations have sent your love for the jihadis into the closet...2 out of 3 pakis still support Osama Bin Laden..

Nobody is falling for the ``Oh we never really supported the jihadis in the past, in any case we`re reformed now`` act...If things have changed a lot, why is the US government keeping a close eye on pakis?

p.s. Pakiland is still supporting the taliban...