Ayodhya Back On Top

Charlie #107

`` Indians are not angels. They make mistakes. They pretend they never made. Due to their arrogant attitudes, they don`t have good relations with even a single nation in the region. ``

Does any nation in the region deserve that ? Ruling elites in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Burma and Nepal have their own share of idiots.

This Temporal fool loves to throw gasoline on any fire. The man is demented and needs to be committed.

Re: #110 by Cayenne

I was thinking of making some ``I am NOT a Paki / Muslim`` t-shirts and selling them. Should be good protection for Indians. Maybe even start exporting these to the UK.

Pakis probably would be the biggest buyers.

Wile i feel sad for the loss of innocent life, today`s incident in London brought the chickens home to roost for the Brits.For years they have nurtured and harbored terrorists in their midst as long as they didn`t harm them, to cause havoc in the middle east and asia.Now they have a taste of their own medicine.The fall out is that all the Pak`s living there are gonna be thrown outta there so fast it has to be amusing to an onlooker.Let us see what the sanctimonious Pak`s in Brits do now?.Cower in basements waiting for the immigration van or be deported in charter flights that take off in the middle of the night, like it happened in the US, after 9/11?.If i was pak, i would be looking for accomodation in the old country right now.

It was with pride, that i saw Manmohan Singh on tv, standing tall, along with the G-8 leaders and the leaders of South Africa, Mexico, Brazil and China in solidarity with Blair.We, indians have arrived as one of the important nations of the world and it is time we use this opportunity to dish it to Pakistan.We have to seize the moment.Manmohan should have a long hard talk with Bush in Gleneagles about Pakistan.

#107 by Charlie on July 7, 2005 9:42am PT


Why do every Indian thinks of terrorists coming from Pakistan?


That`s right...terrorists don`t come from Pakiland into India...let`s forget about the LeT...even those damn afghans are lying when they say terrorists from Pakiland infiltrate into A`stan killing afghans....

Pakiland would never harbor and nurture Islamic terrorists to fight it`s wars.....we all know that....

#107 ``Why do every Indian thinks of terrorists coming from Pakistan?``

there is plenty of past evidence .. dawood is vacationing in karachi, jaish-chief makes open comments, LeT (or markaz) proclaims this..that is why.

charlie, you are attempting to defend the indefensible..give it a rest. muslim fundoos did not kill hindu fundoos.. terrorist paid for by nefarios parties tried to sabotage peace. this will not be tolerated irrespective of your or your co-nationalist sympathies.

Re: # 105 you are attempting to defend the indefensible..give it a rest..... terrorist paid for by nefarios parties tried to sabotage peace.

Why do every Indian thinks of terrorists coming from Pakistan? And why it becomes indefensible if somebody claims that terrorists were Indian? Are all the people living in India angels?

#105 ...your or your co-nationalist sympathies.

Yes, I am being the nationalist. Because not being so and being socalled ``liberal`` gives the extremists of other side a chance to step ahead and claim bizzare things. I will never start any discussion against India but if extremists of other side start discussing against Pakistan, I have right to defend it.

Indians are not angels. They make mistakes. They pretend they never made. Due to their arrogant attitudes, they don`t have good relations with even a single nation in the region.

If you want me to stop talking against India, stop talking against Pakistan. If you will be constructive, I will try to be constructive. If Indians remain rigid, Pakistanis will remain so. Love will be reciprocated with love and hate with hate.

t - more than the question, ``what selfish people do not want that to happen?`` this might be a good time for more folks to think about the consequences of harnessing the violence in the hearts of disaffected people to further their own aims. Its a snake in your bosom that`ll come to bite you no matter how nice you are to it and how much you feed it. Nor can you change its diet - once used to blood and gore if you deprive it of its prey, it`ll soon slip out of your hands and go seeking its own source. slightly mixed metaphor here but maybe you see what i`m trying to get at.

i cant say i`m surprised at the ayodhya blasts, i`m just surprised that we`ve
had this long of a wait.

Why is it always the Islamic fundoos who lay claim to these terrorist activities?

Re: # 101

Because they do it and are proud of it - the kufrs deserve to die.

London toll is running into double digits. Al qaeda has staked claim.....Islamic fundamentalism has struck again. Who is surprised?

Did anyone take me up on my bet that there won`t be any serious repercussions of this attack? If they did, they owe me a Canadian dollar.

Lukewarm response to VHP bandh

July 07, 2005 17:01 IST


The Vishwa Hindu Parishad-sponsored bandh, in protest against the Ayodhya attack, in Maharashtra, Bihar and Assam
on Thursday failed to evoke much response, excepting stray incidents of violence.

Hundreds of activists trying to enforce the bandh were rounded up in several places.

In Nagpur, some activists tried to set ablaze a bus, while others smashed windscreens of two other buses in the city.

Several schools and colleges remained closed due to non-availability of the school transport system, police said, adding that business establishments and shops were closed.

6 militants storm Ayodhya, killed
About 15 persons were detained in Kampte near Nagpur for forcing shopkeepers to down shutters, the police said.

In Bhandara, a state transport bus came under attack. In other parts of Maharashtra, however, the bandh barely evoked any response as business establishments and schools were open and traffic plied as usual.

Mumbai was exempted from the bandh.

There was little impact in Patna, where life went on as usual as banks, schools, business establishments and government offices remained open and recorded normal attendance. Traffic movement was also not affected at all.

More than 450 Sangh Parivar activists were rounded up in various places in Bihar as they were trying to enforce the
bandh, official sources said, adding that in Bhagalpur some activists trying to block trains were chased away by the police.

BJP to hold nationwide protest on Wednesday: Advani
Reports from Bhagalpur, Ara, Buxar, Lakhisarai and Chapra said the bandh evoked good response with big shops and
business establishments downing their shutters and vehicular traffic plying in lesser numbers.

In Gaya town, around 75 bandh supporters, including senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader and former legislator Prem Kumar were detained while leading a procession.

In Assam, normal life was affected although no untoward incident was reported.

Shops and business establishments were closed and vehicles remained off the road in Guwahati, sources said, adding that attendance in government offices, banks and other institutions was thin.

Most of the schools were however closed due to summer vacations in Guwahati.

Rail and air services, however, functioned as per schedule, sources said, adding that the response was total in Barak Valley as well as in the districts in Upper Assam.

In Madurai, ten Bajrang Dal activists led by district unit chief Saravanan, were arrested when they tried to burn an
effigy of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and the Pakistani flag on Thursday, the police said.

The police seized the effigy and the flag before the protestors could set them ablaze.

Re: # 98 DM
//..Did anyone take me up on my bet that there won`t be any serious repercussions of this attack?...//

Riots have hardly broken out because of attacks on temples. This time is no different. ``repercussions`` usually come when there is communal attack like that of godhra.

hey Charlie, lets hear your ``equal-equal`` theory with the British, I know you regret it, but they just had it coming didnt they?

Re: # 97 hey Charlie, lets hear your ``equal-equal`` theory with the British, I know you regret it, but they just had it coming didnt they?

Huh! Idiots try to use sensitive times for proving their logic.

I don`t approve the policies of British Government. I don`t have sympathic corner for Blair and Co. But, I have all my sympathies with British common people. I remember British Civilians how they participated in pro-Iraq rallies when Iraq War was going to take place. A few months back, I was at London and was amazed to see liberal still having a debate against the foreign policies of their government. British are very nice people unlike the fundoos living in our neighbourhood.

The attack on Ayodhia and attack on British metro system is not the same thing. Ayodhia is a classic story of indian atrocities. First, Hindu fundoos destroyed the mosque and built the temple. As a result, 1 billion ``democratic`` fundoos brought those elements into power for their ``services`` to the nation. Then, your own Indian ``muslim`` fundoos attacked the temple and got killed after killing few other Indian fundoos. India is a very democratic place. All fundoos either muslim or Sikhs or Hindus live together and government`s duty is to stop the riots. To show the world that how much love these funddos of different religions have for each other, every terrorist incident is done by neighbours.


#92 This is the only solution to peace in South Asia....

Good solution proposed.But there are a few problems. An example problem: Our rivers pass through your lands, you promised to give us their water. Now, you are violating the treaty and building dams there. What should we do. As I know, India is never at fault, it should be the fault of rivers who pass through their land.

Even if we ignore the core issue of kashmir, our neighbour have the habit of stepping ahead and creating a new problem for us. So to avoid being trapped in newer issues, we have decided to disturb them with their internal problems. so that they can`t create more troubles for us and keep on involved in their internal issues.

Re: # 104
charlie
`The attack on Ayodhia and attack on British metro system is not the same thing. `

so you approve of Ayodhya attack?

Oh gosh, now London.

Terrible.

#69 by Cadbury

[......soldiers just like yours (most of ours are actually better)]

Well yeah, your soldiers are definitely better, but not at fighting. They are good at grabbing plots, running the Fauji Foundation and dairies, PIA, WAPDA, Railways, Telecom, PCB, etc. Anything but fighting, cuz we`ve all seen how they tucked their tails and took to their heels from Kargil despite holding the commanding heights. Contrast this with how tenaciously Indian soldiers have held on to Siachen despite numerous attempts by your soldiers to reclaim it.

[..and buying stuff frm you well incase you haven`t NOTICED we have the MONEY too to spend and you know the best reason YOU ARE CHEAP.]

Where was this wisdom when you folks were buying Indian equipment from Dubai despite the added costs when you could have so easily bought stuff right at the Wagah border?

[..incase you`ve forgotten we are always 24 hours earlier than you in our freedon from brits and ofcourse how can i forget YOU.]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Is that all you have to show despite being a day older than India? I can only pity you!

pakis are a wet dreamin

wonder if they noticd the feds in the background....

#83 by Charlie on July 6, 2005 4:30pm PT


arjun, bongdong, Mike! All of you are good at cut and paste. AND there is a lot of garbage on the net.


just cause there is a lot of garbage on the web, it doesn`t make what I post garbage...

Show me where I`ve posted anything other than a report from a western news source(or from paki news sources)...i rarely. if ever, post from the evil bania hindoo media...

face it: you don`t like the cut paste because it shine the light on the reality that is Pakiland...a jihadi loving terrorist state whose citizens are disabused of their peace loving self-image everytime they land at a western airport....

This is the only solution to peace in South Asia.One thing that we can do is `live in peace` by not being jealous of one another ,stop interfering in each other`s matters and stop making plans to hurt each other`s economies.OR pakistan should, if the central asian and middle eastern countries will permit it, try to become a part of that group of nations and remove it`s focus from india.India is in itself a grouping of 35 nations.We form a `bloc` so to speak and we do not need to align with anybody to gain representation.Pakistan and bangladesh do need to align themselves with a group of nations to increase their bargaining position and productivity.SAARC`s aims were just that.But we all know it now as an abject failure.Pakistan should realign itself away from India.Bangladesh can go to hell in a handbasket!.

#86 by bongdongs

“I guess they didnt tech you math at you madrassa, here repeat after me”

hehehe!
Bongi…stupid as ever… repeat after me…
Assam Rifles…
Rings a bell? Bongi…
hehehe...

#88

we have had the whole Bombay bomb blast trial going on for ages, various transcripts are on the web. Indian home/external ministries has various web pages with info.

for example for the parliament attack:
http://www.indianembassy.org/new/parliament_dec_13_01.htm

You see it doesnt matter, all this commision reports, trials etc whats the use?

# 87 Veeru:

…understand and agree… and for the most part we are on the same pages where it concerns those who have scant respect for human lives...their’s or other civilians’…and you want me to be more explicit than you?...well, for one, why cannot you utter the m world?

…yes, muslims have been held hostage to the regressive forces…in India, in Pakistan…heck everywhere…how they overthrow this shackle is a very serious and involved discussion and effort…for another time…

and when i asked that question if you notice other Pakistanis also supported me…at least one very publicly here…

when i asked in #68* Why cannot the Indians try and capture the terrorists alive and then internationally televise their trials...the world must learn of their identity...this will put greater pressure on the entities that support them... you replied:

“It is very difficult to take prisoners, if they have decided that they are on suicide missions. I am aware of the ground realities in such cases.”

…let us say we are all aware of the suicidal intent and nature of those terrorists….yes i have no compunction in using the t word veeru!…

but

there needs a fundamental change of mentality if not policy by your government…it is not impossible to aim for live capture…if they are taken alive and undergo public judicial trials… the pointers …names of organizations and governments that may be implicated would go a long way in helping the peace lovers everywhere and they can mobilize more effectively in putting effective pressure on the guilty party/parties…

(just as an example…that temple attacker near ahmedabad…last year?...one or two took refuge on the roof…they could have been flushed out alive) (just as an example…that temple attacker near ahmedabad…last year?...one or two took refuge on the roof…they could have been flushed out alive...and if they had named names...it would have helped put pressure on their backers and supporters)

digression: in most knee jerk reactions in your country ISI is blamed... i need not tell you they are a power unto themselves in Pakistan....if they are publicly and fairly exposed... through transparent judicial process of the captured terrorists then it would tremendously help the powers that be -- mushy or a future civilian in curbing the runaway powers of ISI

t

Re: # 88, Temporal sirji, OK, point well taken.

The reason why I, and many other Indians, refrain from using the ``M/Muslim`` word when referring to the terrorists is because it would simply be incorrect to lump all Muslims in India together with the specific Deobandi/Wahhabi lot emanating, frankly, more from Saharanpur area than from across the border.

Please appreciate a few things, at the point of my being repetitive, and since you have traveled extensively in India, do try to explain it to your Pakistani friends also?

a) Almost every non-Muslim Indian will have around 10%-20% friends / acquaintances / people s-he meets on street who will be Muslim. How many of these Muslims are likely to be the sort who have scant respect for human lives, very few. How many of these Muslims choose to remain silent or are silenced (not by Hindus, but by the more violent-fundoo Muslims?), plenty. Who feels sad and bad about this?

If, as an Indian, I refrain from driving this point in with my Muslim friends, it is because, simply, that is the truth. Why hurt them more?

b) Muslim women as a group in India, excluding the ultra-educated lot, and that would make almost 50% of Muslims in India, are sought to be and usually are subjugated by Muslim male-dominated society. Hindus or non-Muslim Indians don`t make these rules, for the MPLB, do they?

(Even the worst of anti-Hindu majority Muslim-whiners in India would seldom take cudgels up for these Muslim women, on their behalf. I hate bringing the Imrana issue up, but you see the truth up front.)

On the other hand, in parts of the country where Muslim women are striking out rapidly as equal parts of the larger society, it is the male-dominated Muslim leadership which makes an issue about contamination of young minds, of the ``Hindufication`` of Muslim youth.

As an Indian, why would I include 50% of a group which is simply not in any way remotely terrorist, which is merging into Indian society faster than any other group lately?

c) There were reports after the latest Ayodhya incident that there was large-scale mobilisation of troops and para-military forces as well as police. I saw it, so did many others.

This mobilisation in India is done irrespective of religion. At thanas, army camps, para-military formations. On ships, airfields and border posts. Even at Ayodhya/Faizabad, for that matter.

The commandos on duty at the jam-packed Delhi Airport yesterday morning included a few Muslims, all of whom displayed not just their name-tags but also their religious marks, (turbans, red-threads, black-threads, crosses . . .), bearded and clean-shaven, but smartly strutting around like the rest of the commandos, with their fingers on triggers. They are there to protect all of us, right?

A representative percentage of the passengers, airline staff, officials, everybody, would also be Muslim. One of the least reported but true facts of life has been the number of visibly Muslim women stepping out of the Old Delhi area in the last 3-4 days to use the new Delhi Metro. A friend of mine from Chitli Qabr area tells me that this was not a coincidence, these women are getting a simple and solid message across to any terrorist who targets the Metro, where a large percentage of the passengers would be Muslim too.

Would it be fair to use the word ``terrorist Muslim``, when 5%-15% of uniformed forces, passengers, officials, in India are Muslims?

d) I have been under fire in the course of my rather varied life, and let me assure you, when you have even the faintest suspicion that the other guy is on a suicide mission, you kill and then stand far away since you have done your job, waiting for the bomb disposal guys to come and do their job.

At that moment, you are not worried about the religion of your back-up buddy or the suicide bomber. You save the life of your buddy and you kill the terrorist. Simple.

+++

The fundamental change taking place across India, which is now much more than the Indian Government by the way, is that society has realised that improvement and change go hand in hand.

So, when I get reports that the figures for arrival, auction and despatch of the NDDB / Amul / Safal and other linked co-ops which are transforming the agricultural / dairy / livestock / meats revolution in India all over India and especially in Guajarat, were absolutely steady despite the Ayodhya attack, all over the country, then I want you to understand - a change is sweeping India.

Because the real change in Indian society, where religion, community and caste barriers are being breeched, is in the rural agricultural sector.

Next time you are in India, I shall take you to one of these auctions, actually you can see a few on the Internet too.

+++

Temporal, we know who the terrorists are.

As for the ISI, chances are that it will consume Pakistan first. Sad, but true.

+++

Temporal ji, why did it come now? Well, when did it stop?

Let us not mince any words - there are branches of Islamic groups in India, as elsewhere, which are simply not moving with the times. That was fine, as long as the pump and fountain of funds from the oilfields was in position.

But now, Ali Baba is unable to send more, too. Peter Pan taking it all away. Right? Right.

A good carpenter or driver stands to earn more in India now than in Saudi Arabia. Think about the deeper issues behind that. Suddenly, for a large number of people, being from a ``particular religion`` is no longer the criteria to travel to Saudi/UAE to get a job, earn a living.

Therefore, you stay in India and you work. You put in a solid 8-12 hours a day, get paid more. And the guy who doesn`t stop work 5 times a day to point in a particular direction to pray gets the job. Get the drift?

So, the gap, economic, social, cultural - choose any or more - is widening in India. The fundoos are finding it difficult to keep their flock together. The growth of media - tv, internet, print, radio - is bringing in questions.

One question is:- would Imrana have dared complain even a few years ago? For that matter, would Mukhtar Mai have dared complain?

Been a while since you`ve visited India, T, the difference especially in the non-metro towns is amazing.

That`s why.

The Jama Masjid is favoured destination for most when they reach Delhi. The filth and corruption around it is symbolic.

Next time, head for the equally historic Fatehpuri Masjid not too far away too. See the difference?

+++

It is very difficult to take prisoners, if they have decided that they are on suicide missions. I am aware of the ground realities in such cases.

+++

When they do manage to capture some alive, then getting information out of them is far more important than any publicity. You see, the authorities and the rest of the country already know who the bad guys are. For that matter even the Pakistanis, here on chowk and everywhere else, know who the bad guys are but then denial, denial, denial.

+++

#85

I guess they didnt tech you math at you madrassa, here repeat after me

hindu opressive occupation army numbers 1.2 million
hindu occupation army numbers 800,000 in Kashmir
hindu illegal army numbers 500,000 on Chinese Border
hindu raping army numbers 500,000 in Assam

how many armymen did the Paki liar pull out of thin air?

He!he!!he!! the virtuous Army…

The people of Manipur have been feeling disturbed and agitated for a long time against such cases of human right violations like fake encounters, custodial deaths and cases of rapes perpetrated by the Indian Army. Some months back a school going girl was raped by the Indian army at Jiribam in Manipur. The crime was happened on the way when the girl went to give lunch to her father at his work place. Later on the girl killed herself, but she revealed the details to her mother before she died.
On the 10th July, one day before Manorama was murdered, the dead body of one Zamkholet Khongsai, a pastor of Saichang village was found by the villagers buried at Laiton Ching some 17 kms away form the Yairipok police station. Sources said he set out as usual with a slinged basket to work in the paddy field. Some times after he left Assam Rifles personnel came in about 10 vehicles and enquired his whereabouts. Later on at around 10 a.m. the villagers heard some gun shots, and Zamkholet never returned. The villagers searched for Zamkholet and his dead body was found on the 10th of this month. The dead body bore three bullet injury marks. An old woman whose residence was not far from the burial site revealed that the Assam Rifles personnel had taken a spade from her at night on the 8th July. The villagers and in fact the whole of Manipur point accusing fingers to the Assam Rifles.
The Manorama case has happened to be a turning point, an outlet to burst out the long pent up anguish of the people, the women in particular against the Indian army. A hurriedly formed joint body of 32 NGOs which is spearheading the movement called a 48 hr bandh from the 12th to the midnight of the 14th July. On the 15th July widely respected women leaders well known by the public disrobed themselves naked in public in front of the Assam Rifles main gate at Kangla at around 10 a.m. They carried festoon written ‘Indian Army Rape Us’ and ‘Indian Army Take Our Flesh’. They shouted ‘We are all mothers of Manorama’. Overwhelmed by the emotion some of them fainted on the ground. Police personnel could get near the agitating women. It took some time for the women police to come and console these women. It was an unprecedented form of protest chosen as the last resort right on the face of the spiraling crimes and shameful incidents of human right violations committed by the Indian army.
Assam is occupied by 250,000-500,000 soldiers, drawn from distant, unsympathetic regions of the vast subcontinent. This aggressive force ``doesn`t speak Assamese... and they`re very rude,`` states Kalita. ``They`ve committed terrible atrocities on hundreds of people in the last 20-25 years.`` Human Rights Watch defines his accusation: ``Villagers have been threatened, harassed, raped, assaulted and killed by soldiers attempting to frighten them into identifying militants.`` Soldiers zealously guard the 725-mile oil artery that pumps black gold out of resentful Assam.

More
Naked women protest...The holy army as in the holy cow army... hehehe
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/21mani.htm

Any body looking for a list of Dalit children and women killed by pious hindus?
On request.. whenever, wherever...

hehehe...

#83

cut the crap, so do you deny there is any involvement of Pakistani state agencies in these incents which are post 9/11?

#78 by Charlie on July 6, 2005 3:43pm PT


After 9/11 however, situation has changed a lot.


What`s changed is that the mass deportation and gitmo vacations have sent your love for the jihadis into the closet...2 out of 3 pakis still support Osama Bin Laden..

Nobody is falling for the ``Oh we never really supported the jihadis in the past, in any case we`re reformed now`` act...If things have changed a lot, why is the US government keeping a close eye on pakis?

p.s. Pakiland is still supporting the taliban...

#78

there is a Pakistani face saving device called ``equal-equal``, unable to comprehend the extent of crimes committed in their name the Pakistani`s say ``but they surely must have done worse to us?`` this is a defence mechanism, not something based in fact.

#78, yes yes, I know its all hindu propaganda but read
http://meaindia.nic.in/jk/kaluchak-massacre.htm

read the names of victims of Kaluchak


(a) Mrs. Premwati (40 yrs) W/o Subedar J.N. Yadav.
(b) Mrs. Avlodhan Devi ( 65yrs) M/o Company Quarter Master Havildar (CQMH) RDP Singh
(c) Ms. Muli (6 yrs) D/o CQMH RDP Singh
(d) Ms. Nitu (14 yrs) D/o Havildar H.S Chauhan.
(e) Mrs. Raya Chauhan ( 30 yrs) W/o Havildar Chauhan.
(f) Mrs. Lalita Kumari (26 yrs) W/o CQMH R.K. Yadav.
(g) Master Amit Yadav (5 yrs) S/o CQMH R.K. Yadav.
(h) Ms. Amandeep Kaur (5 yrs) D/o Subedar Attar Singh
(i) Master Jitender Singh (12 yrs) S/o Subedar Attar Singh
(j) Ms. Dimple (18 yrs) D/o Subedar Gurdev Singh.
(k) Mrs Jaswinder Kaur ( 45 Yrs ) W/O Subedar Gurdev Singh
(l) Mrs Joginder Kaur (21 Yrs) W/O Lance Naik Harbhajan Singh
(m) Master Devender Singh ( 3 Yrs) S/O Battalion Havildar Major Manjeet Singh
(n) Mrs Baljit Kaur (30 Yrs) W/O Sepoy Gurlal Singh
(o) Ms Amandeep Kaur ( 2 Yrs) D/O Sepoy Gurlal Singh
(p) Mrs Punam Devi (38 Yrs) W/O Havildar Surendra Kumar
(q) Ms Anchal (8 Yrs) D/O Havildar Surendra Kumar
(r) Ms Gagan Deep Kaur ( 2 Months) D/O Battalion Havildar Major Manjeet Singh died at the local MH at 2330 hrs on 14 May 0

see their ages: 2 months, 5years, 8 years, 65 years
doesnt your chest just swell with pride Charlie?

#78
Parliament Attack: 13 December, 2001
KALUCHAK MASSACRE: May 14, 2002
Akshardham Attack: September 24, 2002
Bombay Blasts: August 25, 2003


yes, I know Iknow, we hindu`s did it ourselves to defame the ``pure as driven snow`` pakis, so save your breath

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/apr/04spec.htm

#73
charlie, do you remember the hijackers who got released from indian jails? they were in jail, they got freed, very much alive, and one of them went on to murder daniel pearl, who brought so much bad PR to pakistan.

pakistani establishment knows where many of the terrorist are, so when pressure gets high from bush, they catch a couple, and summarily hand them over to americans without even a pretense of due process. that earned the infamous dog cartoon. since you are interested in trials mr dawood-bhai is in karachi, very alive, please hand him over, he will be tried hopefully to your satisfaction (unless he dies in an unfortunate escape attempt).

rule of law in india is spotty at best, but catchiing and prosecuting jehadis bent on blowing themselves is not easy even in the west. so US went the G`bay route, and UK passed all kinds of strange new laws.

Re: # 77

Jang! While writing the above posts, you, JG, Stuka and few other Indians were constantly in my mind. You are quite reasonable guys. I am sorry If you got hurt by my posts.

Sorrily, most of the Indians (and may be most of the Pakistani do it for India also) like arjun, Veeresh and Mike keep on druming similar thing without realizing that they are looking quite funny for that. I was pissed of by their atitude and hence I started all above things.

This explanation however doesn`t mean that I back out from my above statements. I still believe that Indian psychology is not very different from Pakistani psychology. Most of the Indians are Hinduvta Jihadis. Atleast, on this forum where quite educated people come, it is very true.

arjun, bongdong, Mike! All of you are good at cut and paste. AND there is a lot of garbage on the net. Keep it up. It helps me knowing more about theory behind popularity of RSS, BJP, VHP.

I am sorry for the dead children and civilians. At the same time you should be sorry for dead civilians due to RAW acivities in Pakistan.

pakistani`s who deny the role their goverment institutions have played in terrorist incidences all over India (and not just Kashmir) are delibrate obfuscators at best and islamist sypathizers at worst.

anyway I see no reason to waste time with such sophistry.

Re: # 76

You are living in Past. Pakistani institutions were involved in ``freedom struggle`` in Kashmir. Pakistanis supported ``Khalistan`` movement. Just like the way, RAW remained involved in bomb blasts inside Pakistan. Should we keep on drumming the beat how India supported MQM in Karachi during 90s or they supported Mukti Bahni in 1970/71. What else do you expect? In the presence of so many disputed issues, do you want us to give you chocolates and flowers?

After 9/11 however, situation has changed a lot. But Indians are still living in Past. Even if Manmohan Singh catches flu, ISI causes it. Indians have Pakistan-phobia.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0205/kashmir_sb1.html

#73

yu are a half-wit moron, and anything that doesnt fit in your worldview will be dismissed as propaganda, but anyway, this is my last attempt

http://www.why-war.com/news/2002/01/01/diaryofa.html

haha..who is this semi-literate fool Cadbury ? A typical Pakistani `intellectual`...

``... Why cannot the Indians try and capture the terrorists alive and then internationally televise their trials...the world must learn of their identitiy....``

there is evidence and evidence galore, what difference has it made?

Firstly these chaps have a nasty habit of blowing themselves up, even if we captured someone and put them on TV the Paki`s will scream ``propoganda``,

here let me read out the article that will appear jang:

``In another display of Hindoo perfidity a hapless Indian muslim was repeatedly tortured and made to confess to all sorts of crimes. It was quite apparent from his vacant expression the torture the person was made to go through.

Pakistan once again condemms all acts of violence``

Questions to consider:

* Why did it come now?
* What was the aim of the attackers?
* Did the BJP meeting at Surat and the Kulkarni resignation have anything to do with this?
* Who benefits most if the peace process is hindered or rolled back?
* How soon will calm prevail? (this was misconstrued - i meant long term calm between India and Pakistan)
* Are we ordained not to live in peace?
* Can the ordinary people in India (and Pakistan) ever look forward to peaceful days?

* What selfish forces do not want that to happen?

and one new one:

* Why cannot the Indians try and capture the terrorists alive and then internationally televise their trials...the world must learn of their identitiy...this will put greater pressure on the entitites that support them...

Re: # 68

* Why cannot the Indians try and capture the terrorists alive and then internationally televise their trials...the world must learn of their identitiy...this will put greater pressure on the entitites that support them...


A million dollar question.

If Technologically advanced and very rich Indians don`t know how to capture a few illiterate terrorists alive, Pakistan police can be of some help. No matter how backward, corrupot and poor Pakistani police is, in recent past they have captured a lot of terrorists alive. Sometime even without gas bombs that make the aggresssors unconscious.

#59 by Cadbury on July 6, 2005 12:29pm PT


just check which side had treason inquiries against there own people weapon scandals against their own leaders. I don`t remember that happening in Pakistan and unlike you my memory isn`t bad at all.


Silly me...I thought wars were decided by who held the ground in contention...

#62

yeah, thats why so many pakistani`s believe Mossad was behind 9/11 and all jews received a telphaic message as they were leaving for work to stay away from downtown Manhattan.

This is what PM Singh said on the way to Gleneagles;

Ayodhya Attack PTI

Terror infrastructure in Pak by and large intact: PM


Wednesday, 06 July , 2005, 21:50

On Board Special Aircraft: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Wednesday stopped short of blaming terrorist groups in Pakistan for Tuesday’s attack in Ayodhya. He said there was no doubt that terror infrastructure was ``by and large intact.``

In a blunt warning, the Prime Minister said recurrence of such incidents could derail the Indo-Pak peace process which the two countries had committed to make irreversible.

``All those who are concerned have an obligation,`` Singh told reporters accompanying him to London for the G-8 summit at Gleneagles in Scotland.

``The terror attack in the makeshift Ram temple in Ayodhya was a major incident and there was no doubt that the infrastructure for terrorism (in Pakistan) is by and large intact,`` Singh, who has since arrived in London, said.

``Both President Musharraf and I have committed ourselves in the joint statement to make the peace process irreversible. I sincerely hope the commitment is honoured. The major elements in this is that terrorism should be under control,`` he said.

``Anything that came in the way of public opinion, certainly these incidents, they get repeated has the potential to disrupt peace process. All concerned have a commitment to make it irreversible,`` he said.

http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13890025

kaurey, european peace came after 2 world wars and (several other smaller). canada - us came thru lack of power ambition for canada. considering..we in india-pak are doing OK.

#55

The indian elite as epitomized by Indira stuffed her ego in her handbag and got on her knees and begged for PL-480 food aid when famine stalked the land.

thant is the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship.

#49 by bongdongs on July 6, 2005 10:12am PT

Wonder why the principled pakis with their just and moral stand are ok with an internet link through India....shouldn`t that be contingent on the resolution of the kashmir issue..

Re: # 54 Wonder why the principled pakis with their just and moral stand are ok with an internet link through India....shouldn`t that be contingent on the resolution of the kashmir issue..

We pay you for what we buy. Right? You earn profit with what you sell. No? We reserve the right to buy from no matter where on no matter what price. Aap ko takleef?

#45 by Charlie on July 6, 2005 9:23am PT


during the talks keep on showing a stubborn attitude.


yes..Indians are stubborn...they won`t hand over Kashmir to you on a platter...they won`t sit around while you occupy kargil...they won`t let you take siachen...stubborn bania SOBs all of them...

I did not notice the questions at the end.

One cannot expect peace like in US/Canada/West Europe. There will be `relative` peace, calm/ prosperity from time to time.

India cannot/shouldnot expect cooperation from either Pakistan or Bangladesh in peace making - the other two players in the subcontinent. On the contrary, religious fanaticism, old scores, chasms are too deep.

India is a house divided by corruption, selfish interests, agendas, religious, racial, caste, hatred, politics etc. Thus, she can only clap and make noise like a hij ra. who is impotent to do anything else.

So, as they say in Punjabi, this region will survive only ``Rab they Sahaaray``. (with the aid of divine interventions).

folks!

this was a hurried reportage!

the only thing i added were some questions...and after reading the interacts i have a few more...but first let me thank the few who made an attempt to answer some of them...forgive me if i skip a name...thanks veeru, dost, concerned, kaurasach, drlokraj, Netizen,wahi_to, HP, mohar 11, rajivr, harish, charlie, cadbury, bongdongs

in another post i will add dome more queries..for now a comment...

geographically we cannot chose neighbours...like siblings we have to learn to live with our neighbours...we cannot make amends for accidents of our birth...but we certainly can make a difference in the quality of life around us till we also join the dead

rgds

t

this is how bright the Pakistani elite like Charlie is, they will strve their own people just to maintain their hostitlity to India.

http://www.financialexpress.com/latest_full_story.php?content_id=95749?headline=Sugar~to~sweeten~Indo-Pak~ties

Re: # 49 this is how bright the Pakistani elite like Charlie is, they will strve their own people just to maintain their hostitlity to India.

Mohtyaram Janab Bongdong Sahib! I don`t understand why Indians like you have the habit of advising Pakistanis. What they hell do they think of themselves? Aflatoons? My foot.
If somebody is starving, it is us: the Pakistanis. Since when our neighbours started feeling bad for our starvation.

Bhai Saab, Before informing us about the poverty of Pakistan, first try to take care of 300 million poor inside your country.

Thanks.

An oddity - no group has claimed responsibility. Is it because the mission was a failure?

Re: # 48 kaura

Could be. Did anybody claim credit for the attack on parliament? that was a failure too.

Pakistani ``dissatisfaction`` with talk`s is due to their over-inflated ego, every talk begins and ends with ``gimme, gimme, gimme ...``

here hear it again: you are not going to be given on platter what you havent won in 3 1/2 wars. get it?

#45

good so now you are convinced of the ``truth`` about indian`s I hope you will stop identifying yourself as one (as you have admitted to doing)

#42 We talk, you kill...

Huh! Plain Lie. If India had any wish to solve problems on talks, all problems might have been solved till now. Pakistan is a weaker country, why it will take so much pain to destablize India. Only reason for that is that India always avoid talks or during the talks keep on showing a stubborn attitude.


#44 http://www.saag.org/papers15/paper1440.html

garbage. Full of lies. One can easily see that writer puts everything on Muslims and then on ISI.

#35

here read this:
http://www.saag.org/papers15/paper1440.html

#35

we talk, you kill

see any difference?

#34

it is important to understand that L-e-T has no ``mass base`` in a mainstream pakistani religious organizations. It is a offshoot of a minority sect, it was created and almost totally funded by ISI.

Now the point is do you consider elements within the ISI as ``rogue`` or completely an arm of the state?

charlie,
either indians are superior or they are not. if true, accept the truth. if false, call them ignorant, end of story. why the jihadi urge of fight unto death?

#35 by Charlie on July 6, 2005 4:02am PT


My Ideas about Indians after joining chowk has changed a lot.


That`s right....you were a peace loving, full of love for fellow mankind paki before you came to chowk...one encounter with the Indians and you became one of the 2/3rd of pakis who think Osama is a hero and not a terrorist...

trust those damn Indians do that to a decent non-jihadi paki...


Pakistanis should not accept any peace that gives these people a feeling of being stronger, superior or winner.


Who gives a paki`s ass what you care to accept...This is about Kashmir isn`t it? more specifically, your failure to deal with the reality that India won`t hand over Indian Kashmir....

Tempo Unkil! Your wish to make peace with India is genuinely understandable. I also wish it to happen. But with the Indian mindset based on superiority complex, I am in no favor to have good ties with them. Pakistanis should not accept any peace that gives these people a feeling of being stronger, superior or winner.

My Ideas about Indians after joining chowk has changed a lot. While, in Pakistan there are a lot of people talking of unconditional withdrawal from our genuine rights, Indian psychology is too much bent toward feeling that they have all the rights are they are all right. Even when, they talk of peace, they talk of removing the borders. What does it mean? To me, it means thay don`t have the simplest idea about the fact that Pakistanis need security, not the unity. The day, we feel secure of Indian agressions (and it will happen only if Indians get rid of their superiority complex), there and our problems will be solved.

Have you listened them talking of waging war against Pakistan. Huh! Let them wage a war. What do these people think? Let`s have a full fledge war killing a few million people and then learning a lesson that nobody is winner in a war.

Re: # 35
//...Let`s have a full fledge war killing a few million people and then learning a lesson that nobody is winner in a war...//

Nah - no ``full fledge`` war - let`s just have another war by ``thousand cuts``. That kinda worked for us coward hinoods. You pakis waged that war for 15 years and bled yourselves to almost death :). And hindoos went on to become 4th largest [ or some such number ] economy.

Kind of neat, ain`t it?

Re: # 35
sweetness....we did it before, we kicked pak butt,when we were dirt poor, had a hodge podge collection of armaments and the world`s greatest country hot on our heels,as is evident from recent transcripts.NOW, we`re rich, we have the world`s third largest army, 6th largest airforce and we manufacture our jets in our own backyard, spare parts et al.Our navy is the largest in Asia.Enough said.get your mother outta there, if you`re pak.And, we have a legtimate reason...terrorism.the time is right to strike, `cause if we cripple your country/economy now, then there will never be another chance for you guys to grow.

Re: # 37
Hi Cayenne,
About your last comment, if my history serves me right, didn`t one of your very prominent leaders at the time of independence made similar claims of us Pikes not being able to survive on our own, a country that came into being with a capital of only 700 million rupees and atleast double the mouths to feed???

Now if you count aren`t we like 68 yrs old almost as old as your oh so great and rich and not to forget secular and tolerant country (which by the way still owes us 50 million of our due share from 1947`s finance split in Reserve Bank of India)

I ve seen the media propaganda against us in your internal media, we aren`t a country of cavemens darling moving our bodies to your music. If you think the partition of your Akhand Bharat was unjust, just remeber that we`ve acheived that with all the sanctions and poverty 68 yrs ago with all of you and the british ombined and you expect to conquer us now? when we`ve fed on our own lush food and have all the same resources as you on hand, we may not have tons of money, armour or human count but can still beat your asses if you even pick on us cuz we have the brains.

Temporal along with everyone who shares his veiws which ofcourse includes me on the subject are very fair and right in hoping for peace with you guys but then just remember we are peaceful as we follow a peaceful religion put please stop bagering on our national esteem otherwise all i can say is that whatever you blame us of will only be remembered as trailers to what you will see on a full fledged war.

Re: # 39

cadbury

Peaceful?.You have the same resources as us?.Please, then why ain`t the appointed goonda or the satrap running your country at the Gleneagles summit, whereas our head of govt. is?.And why are you guys buying vegetables from us?.And ,you want to buy diesel?.And , now you wanna use our internet cables?.You covet everything we have.You are scum.We best you before, we`ll do it again.It`s just a matter of time.

Re: # 60

Sorry sweets didn`t see ur answer. So wht was the banter about same resources ? well lets see we have the same sun and the moon (they do give us their blessings everyday u know) same patch of land as well and we also have the same skin colour almost, same social problems but since you are not like normal human being these similarities dont mean enough so listen lady, the atom bomb just like yours, soldiers just like yours (most of ours are actually better), tanks like yours, ships like yours, ordinace factories like your, planes like yours etc etc etc.

What more are you looking for ??? how hard is it for you guys to move on from 1947 ??? and buying stuff frm you well incase you haven`t NOTICED we have the MONEY too to spend and you know the best reason YOU ARE CHEAP. When was the last time India became SOOO independant that it stopped buying stuff from abroad. I don`t wanna waste my time researching the net on whtever u buy frm whereever in detail but i guess you know those already don`t you.

Smarten up lady wake up to reality the world really is what you make it and your kinda attitude will only make it worse. And please dont come back crying about me having double standards and talking about kicking your ass cuz i ve said that from the start we will do it IF you provoke and you know smthing just like bombs in temples hurt you explotions and rifle bursts in Mosque hurt us too its not like we will just sit and let you walk over us ever

and yeh tht posty about being ahead of us just incase you`ve forgotten we are always 24 hours earlier than you in our freedon from brits and ofcourse how can i forget YOU.

Again breaking mosques and temples is not the way to move forward but then even after smone specifically mentioning it to you, you wana go over it again and again and again

Re: # 39
//..can still beat your asses if you even pick on us cuz we have the brains...//

Really? Well - there have been four wars already - you pakis lost all of them. How did that happen? Didn`t you have ``brains`` at that time? .... Or are you saying you pakis have acquired ``brains`` only recently so that you can fianlly beat hinud a$$es?? .... And are those ``brains`` built indigenously or imported from china??

+++

..... I never understood where this paki bravado comes from? These fools have lost all the wars, mini wars, war of thousand cuts, jihads. And yet they come back saying the same line over and over again .... It`s like that incompetent hunter who tries hunt the 800 pound bear and gets his a$$ screwe!d again and again, literally :)

Re: # 43

What did u say we lost 4 wars with u??? God ur government really does raise historically illiterate civilians i guess.

We lost 1948 with u and you know why cuz oh my God !!! the ripping partition the biggest injustice to Hindus gave pakistan only trains full of corpses and eyes full of tears, when we lost the war it was because your oh so great nation behaved like vultures and tried to take whatever they could of those corpses. Which includes the ever debated Kashmir that is oh so yours (yeah right as if!!!)

1965, we lets see i can really teach u history but then just check which was the biggest war of tanks, how many were yours and how many were ours and who won there since u did have the time to comment u can find the time to look for the REAL truth but then thts only if u can take ur blinkers off. We won it only cuz of our brains and sheer courage of our people.

1971, those would have been civil roit if u guys didn`t INTRUDE and help the militias there. We lost to our brothers not u so please !!!!

whts the fourth one Kargil ? Siachen ? just check which side had treason inquiries against there own people weapon scandals against their own leaders. I don`t remember that happening in Pakistan and unlike you my memory isn`t bad at all.

Another evidence for our brains and might is your ever increasin defence budgets, we justify our budget increases on the basis that we are fighting a big nation and have accepted the fact that we have a big hostile neighbour next door you on the other hand are afraid of what then ????? why the fences on the borders sweetheart ? what are you guys of scared off if you are oh so great and better than us.

And our friendship with China ??? now why does that bother you so much when you have all access to Israel, Russia, America ??? Scaredy Cat ??

All said and done guys seriously we can go on and on on who is better forever and ever and ever and since we all love our respective countries we will probably never stop that just how love is. So why can`t we just respect our neighbours and their citizen`s feelings. Nobody asks indians to love pakis and vice versa but u can atleast show respect. I agree we temporal again we cannot choose our geographical neighbours so just accept the facts and move on distorting them is not gonna help at all. I have lost relatives in partitions and the wars in b/w and i m sure ppl from both sides lost their loved ones for thats the nature of wars so why do you want to repeat it again and fill your future generations with the same misconceptions ?

Re: # 59 cadbury
//... Nobody asks indians to love pakis and vice versa but u can atleast show respect...//

You want ``respect``, huh? Sometime back you are all gung-ho about beating hinud a$$ with your ``brains``. Now suddenly you want ``respect``....... Well - you ain`t getting any ``respect`` ...... Nobody respects jihadis. hinuds don`t really care about pakis and fools ...

Anycase - If you want respect, then you will have to earn it, work for it. Don`t go beggin for it, that`s just pathetic.

Re: # 65

Keep on pretending, you seem to have forgotten beggers don`t give threats do they ???

About Jihadis well find out first wht it means and then tlk about it i am not event gonna waste my time teaching u tht. We don`t really call the killers of gujrat roits, 1992 roits or the ones who bought down a mosque sadhus and pandits either although thats what they dress as don`t they and unlike you i do know what Sadhus and Pandit mean

Re: # 65
Don`t get me wrong I will still stand by my beating ur ass claims but unlike u thats not everything my world revolves around. Respecting each other is the eventual conclusion anyone with BRAINS will come to but then how would you ever understand it ??? God is great isn`t he ?

Re: # 59

About historically ignored civilians, I strongly agree. While Pakistanis always have the urge to look for the hidden news inside the propoganda sources, Indians always accept the official statements, newspaper stories and whatever makes their ego happy. Dumb people.

Re: # 62

Look in the mirror! O` Pathetic one.

#28 by wahi_to

[well it is certainly possible that this might be an ISI work but pakistan is trying to portray the ``secular`` image these days and this would run contrary to that ``secular`` image game.]

[of course there are folks in pakistan that would love to see India in hell but right now this action wont help pakistan.]

There are many quarters in Pakistan, prominent among them the religious right and their armed wings, terrorist groups like the LeT and JeM, that are upset by the recent peace talks between India and Pakistan. They see this as the ultimate betrayal of the Kashmiri cause by Musharraf. They would do anything to damage the peace process.

Alternately, Mushy himself could have tacitly given the go-ahead because in nearly 2 years of the peace process, India hasn`t altered its stance that there cannot be a redrawing of borders. This might be a subtle warning that if there is no progress on the Kashmir issue, then it will be back to business as usual.

Re: #24 by Mike

I followed Mike’s link and got to this WONDERFUL site.

The good thing about this site is that it is HONEST.

Doesn’t try to mask or hide things like dishonest idiotic fanatics like tahmed32.

This is from the following address:

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=2860&Option=FatwaId


It is an absolutely fascinating read, and offers a glimpse into the naked muslim mind.

This IS the philosophy they follow, but pretend not to.

Enjoy:


[Fatwa No. : 2860
Fatwa Title : Temples into mosques, mosques into temples
Fatwa Date : 30 Muharram 1423


Question

During the Islamic rule in India some of the temples were converted to mosques by the rulers. Is this acceptable in Islam? And what if a mosque which was built at a place where there was a temple earlier and now when Hindus demolish the mosque, should the Muslims oppose and sacrifice their lives for it? Please answer in detail with Qur`an and Sunnah.



Fatwa

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the World; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

From Islamic point of view, there are three kinds of countries where non-Muslims live.


First, countries established by Muslims. In such countries, non-Muslims are allowed to live, but they are not permitted to build temples, churches or synagogues. Also, they are not allowed to eat pork or drink wine in public. In addition, even if they had an agreement with an Imam allowing the eating of pork and drinking wine in public such an agreement is not valid because such an agreement is unsound. Ibn al-Qayyim said: `There is no disagreement concerning the above ruling among Muslims`.


It is reported form Ibn `Abbas as presented by Abu Yusuf in his book ``al-Kharaj: land tax``. `Non-Muslims are not allowed to build some temples in a country that is built by Muslims and are not allowed to toll a bell nor to drink wine in public or raise pig`.


Imam Ahmad (May Allah`s Mercy be upon him), while answering a question about churches and synagogues built by Zimmis (non-Muslims in a Muslim country), said: `churches and synagogues should be destroyed, and they are not permitted to build a new one in a country that is built and inhabited by Muslims. They are not allowed to do what is mentioned above except what they have reconciled with and agreed upon with Muslims. It is said to Abu Abdullah : `What is the evidence that prevent, them from building a synagogue or church if the land is theirs and they pay Jizyah (poll tax) and they are not a source of mischief?` He answered: the Hadith of Ibn `Abbas (Radiya Allahu Anhu) mentioned above.


Ibn al-Qayyim said: `The above ruling rendered by Sunnah is established by virtue of Shari`a rules and fundamentals, since allowing non-Muslims to build temples constitutes a banner of disbelief and such a work is worse than establishing bars and brothels constitutes a banner of dissoluteness. Thus, the ruler of Muslims is not allowed to reconcile non-Muslims to produce rites of disobedience and lewdness, not to speak of producing a location for disbelief and polytheism`. We exclude from the above-ruling only places of worship that were built in the desert, and then, Muslims settled around them, i.e. such buildings are not to be destroyed.


Second, countries established by non-Muslims, and then, Muslims conquered them by force. In such countries, it is Haram to give rise to any place of worship for non-Muslims. As for places of worship that were established before conquest, Muslim scholars have two opinions:


1) All such places are to be destroyed; it is Haram to leave them as they are, since possession of such countries is conveyed to Muslims. So, it becomes Haram to maintain, in such countries, any places that show the banner of disbelief, just as the countries that are established and inhabited by Muslims. Another reason is that possession of places of churches and synagogues is conveyed to Muslims. This means that if we allow non-Muslims to establish their rites of disbelief, then it becomes like selling or renting out those places, and that is Haram. In addition, Allah has legislated Jihad until all kinds of worship are for Allah alone. If we help or allow them to establish their rites of disbelief in such places, then all kinds of worship will be for others, not for Allah.


2) It is permissible to leave places of worship as they are. This opinion is based on the Hadith stated above from Ibn `Abbas . This Hadith reads: ``In a country that was established by non-Muslims, and then, Muslims conquered it, non-Muslims have the rights mentioned in their agreement with Muslims, who are to honor their agreement with non-Muslims. The Muslims have no right to put on non-Muslims a burden greater than they have strength to bear`` .


In the same vein, the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) did not destroy Jewish places of worship after the conquest of Khaibar, but he left them as they were. The Prophet`s (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) companions did not destroy churches after conquering many countries. Such old places of worship exist at the present time.
Umar Ibn `Abdul `Aziz sent his officials the following: `Do not destroy a church or synagogue or a temple of fire worshippers`.


Ibn al-Qayyim said: `The sound judgment concerning the above-stated issue is that the Muslim ruler is authorized to do what is more suitable on behalf of Muslims. So, he can decide to take hold of non-Muslim places of worship or to remove them depending on Muslims` need of such place, paucity of non-Muslims and numerous temples. But, if he finds it is better to leave such places as they are due non-Muslims` need and Muslims` sufficiency, then he has to do so`. This is the superior saying.


Third, countries captured through reconciliation. If an agreement of reconciliation states that Muslims are only entitled to receive Kharaj (land tax) and the land is for non-Muslims or both parties have a truce only, then places of worship of non-Muslims are to be kept safe and non-Muslims can build new ones, since the land is theirs. This last picture of reconciliation was done with Najraan Christians by the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), and he did not stipulate prevention of building a new church or abbey.


On the other hand, if an agreement of reconciliation states that the land is for Muslims and non-Muslims are to pay Jizyah (poll tax), then Muslims, (in case of ability) are to follow the steps of `Umar Ibn al-Khattab (Radiya Allahu Anhu), i.e. to prevent non-Muslims from establishing any church, synagogue or hermitage. In addition, if the agreement does not specify something, then we are to follow `Umar `s way of reconciliation, since it becomes a ruling of Shari`a for all Muslim rulers.


Thus, we have mentioned the general ruling, i.e. when there is a Muslim ruler who leads Muslim armies and manages Muslims` affairs and as long as Muslims have the ability to defend themselves or to wage Jihad. But, if Muslims are weak or there is no an independent Muslim state and entity, or they live as a Muslim minority, then the Muslims` interest should be the criterion. In simple words, if it will be a good advantage for Muslims to destroy non-Muslim places of worship and build new mosques instead of them, then Muslims have to do so.
On the other hand, if such a work may lead to worse actions such as killing and destruction by fire, Muslims have to do nothing. Here, we apply the ruling that states: `Warding off an evil is preferred to getting benefit`.


Allah knows best.]

Why do we have such a storm in the teacup, huh?

Temporal, don`t you have anything better to do, like copy-paste articles from South Asia Tribune?

The problem is..no one has really realized the fundamental difference between ``received`` religions and those which have simply evolved with time.Islam, Christianity,Buddhism belong to the former..a clearly and possibly historically identified Prophet, a Book or a set of teachings...and the others like Animism or Hinduism.
i propose a radical theory..that mankind is wired for spirituality as his first comprhension of the world beyond him lay in the Mystery of the Unknown.
By one means or the other,he has since been giving names that which he cannot comprehend...
and that which will remain forever incomprehensible. no matter how clever he gets.

Let us jettison labels and move on to a label less,nameless pursuit of truth and mystery and stop killing for it.

RR

jehadist attacks will continue.The courage of ordinary Indians and Pakistanis who desire Peace will be tested.

The power of rational discourse will be on trial when innocent lives are lost.

Cultural baggage will come in the way of denouncing fundamantalism..Jehadi(A green band over the world) or Akhand Bharatis(Hindi,Hindu,Hindustan)..

But resist we must.Let this not break the inevitable and inexorable way of Peace.Amen.

Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera




By Our Correspondent

NOWSHERA, Jan 29: An angry mob ransacked a temple to avenge an alleged desecration of Holy Quran by a man here, police and witnesses said. Chief Minister Mohammad Akram Khan Durrani has ordered a judicial inquiry into the incident and suspended two senior police officers. He also ordered immediate rehabilitation of the temple.

Police said that the incident took place on Tuesday evening when children playing in Lal Kurti in the Nowshera Cantonment area spotted two pieces of paper later identified as pages from a book taught to students before they start the Holy Book.

The children, however, immediately informed their elders about what they termed ‘desecration,’ triggering an angry reaction from residents. Police said that a Christian janitor, who was cleaning the rented quarters of a nurse from the Combined Military Hospital, had collected things left by the previous tenants and set them on fire, not knowing what was in it.

“I think the guy is innocent,” District Police Officer Zebullah Khan told Dawn. The 55-year-old Yusuf Masih was immediately taken into ‘safe custody’, the DPO said, recalling a tragic incident in Nowshera in April when a man was shot dead by a mob for allegedly desecrating Holy Quran.

Mr Khan said that a mob of about 300 people had gathered outside the police station where Masih had been kept , demanding that he be handed over to them. At around the same time, he said, the mob blocked the Grand Trunk Road for about an hour but dispersed peacefully after negotiations.

However, another group rushed towards a Hindu temple known as Lamba Vera Mandar and tried to set it on fire. They damaged the main door and ransacked its furniture, the DPO said. “It appeared pre-planned and premeditated,” Zebullah Khan said. Fire-fighters rushed to the place and the fire was put out before it could spread.

Deputy Superintendent of Police and SHO, Nowshera Cantonment, have been suspended and an inquiry has been ordered against them.

Minority MPAs, Felix Innocent and Gusaran Lal, met the chief minister and sought his intervention.

Understanding the islamic mentality >

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During the Islamic rule in India some of the temples were converted to mosques by the rulers. Is this acceptable in Islam?

Thus, we have mentioned the general ruling, i.e. when there is a Muslim ruler who leads Muslim armies and manages Muslims` affairs and as long as Muslims have the ability to defend themselves or to wage Jihad. But, if Muslims are weak or there is no an independent Muslim state and entity, or they live as a Muslim minority, then the Muslims` interest should be the criterion. In simple words, if it will be a good advantage for Muslims to destroy non-Muslim places of worship and build new mosques instead of them, then Muslims have to do so.

On the other han