Dance of the wolves

#222 Ajeya:

In responding to #220, although you are putting this up as a Hindu versus Muslim issue – making it appear like “we have so much bad stuff going against Hindus, so why are you focusing on this one Muslim family affected by Ayodhya”, if you think a bit, it will be apparent that both #220 and your #222 are basically accounts of people – usually underdogs – who suffer through no fault of their own. Occasionally, I have felt some of the frustration similar to yours. However, in fairness, I would like to draw your attention to the following:

(1) As is this author’s style (call it a shortcoming, if you wish), she is always more moved by the plight of individuals she comes into contact with (or learns about) more than that of groups she does not encounter!

(2) She makes India a focus of her efforts, because India is where she lives, and believes that’s where she can indeed make a difference!

(3) She is not afraid to take a position which could make her unpopular! She is not shooting for a political office, etc. (we know that many politicians will say anything as per the need of the moment, without meaning any of it). The fact that she can say those things and not be “punished” by the establishment, speaks volumes about the strength of the democratic institution and India’s maturity as a nation – let’s understand and value that!

(4) Lastly, honesty ought to be valued for its own sake, without attacking the individual! And ALL discrimination is bad! Yet, hurting people who have no recourse is deplorable and certainly when it is carried out by the establishment, the best time to stop it is when there are very few instances, not when it becomes institutionalized!

Re: #220 by OneOfThe72



Plight of Hindus in Sindh and Balochistan


Khaled Ahmed

…

Hindus in Balochistan: The latest facts about the Hindu community in Balochistan have come to light in a report by Minority Rights Commission of Pakistan titled Religious Tolerance in Balochistan: Myth and Reality (2003) by Akram Mirani. The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas. In Kalat there are seven Hindu temples but the Hindu streets are separate from Muslim streets. There are even two Hindu doctors in Kalat. The only Brahman in town is Maharaj Roshan Sharma in charge of the Shiv Mandar there. Hindu merchants still control the wholesale trade of the area. But in 1992, after the Babri mosque incident in India, it was the Pakhtun community who intruded and subjected the Hindus to violence. The police in Balochistan is hardly organised. It keeps no record of violence against the minorities and is barred from operating anywhere outside the province’s major cities. Conditions have been bad in the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan.

Anti-Hindu violence in Balochistan: The Friday Timesreported in its issue of March 23-29, 2001, as follows: ‘Hundreds of Hindus have been forced to flee their homes and cross over into Sindh. Three Hindus were reported to have been killed in the town of Chaman after clashes between Hindus attempting to protect their homes and Muslim mobs in October. Temples and homes were set ablaze and property, including Hindu shops, destroyed as the growing social intolerance assumed alarming new proportions in Balochistan. In all cases, local extremist groups played a role in triggering the attacks. ‘Though the precise number of families which fled was unknown, reports suggested almost half the community of 10,000 Hindus in Lasbela had been forced to leave their homes over the year. In almost all cases, the increased activism by militant religious groups imposed new strains on relations between the majority Muslim and the Hindu communities, who had lived peacefully alongside each other for many decades. The efforts to forcibly convert the Hindus, especially female school students, had a direct role to play in violence against Hindu settlements. At least five Hindu temples were vandalised over the year, with their structures damaged and the idols and other objects of worship broken. Amidst the uproar caused by the conversion issue in Lasbela, activists of religious parties launched an assault on two old Hindu temples and threw to the ground the idols placed in them.’


Plight of Hindus of Sindh: Newsline(Dec 2000), pages 77-79, stated that ‘the status of the 2.7 million Hindus in Pakistan, who are largely concentrated in Sindh, does not make for a very encouraging picture. Despite the fact that the Hindus in Pakistan have generally maintained a low profile, the general attitude towards them is one of suspicion. A case in point: the editor of a Sindhi newspaper demanded a car from a Hindu businessman. When he refused the former wrote an editorial in his paper declaring that the gentleman was a RAW agent who had been supplying weapons to terrorists in the country. In another incident in Hyderabad in September, Ashok Kumar, a Hindu inspector of the Income Tax Department, along with the army monitoring team went to Sadar to collect tax return forms from shop owners. Instead of complying with the authorities, one of the shop-owners alleged that the Hindu inspector had threatened to grab him by his beard if he did not give him the form. Within no time the shopkeeper managed to muster a group of his colleagues, who shuttered their shops and took out a procession demanding that the government hand them the Hindu so that they “could teach him a lesson.” There followed a two-day strike in the city, as a result of which Ashok Kumar was not only suspended from his job, but also jailed after a case of ‘blasphemy’ was registered against him.

‘Hindus in Pakistan have faced the greatest trials when there has been tension between India and Pakistan. Says an analyst, “From the first Indo-Pak war to the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya, Hindus in Pakistan have been perceived as enemies and persecuted.” Kidnapping, extortion, and even killing are, meanwhile, common crimes perpetrated against Hindus in Sindh today. In September this year, Dr. Kanaya Lal, a Hindu eye specialist, was kidnapped from Larkana from the heart of the town. He was released after one week following a ransom payment of 5 lakh rupees (500,000 rupees). Another Hindu, Dr, Darshan Lal, was killed in Badah town in Larkana when he offered resistance to dacoits who were attempting to kidnap him from his house. At least four Hindu have been kidnapped from Sukkur during the last two months, and remain in the custody of the dacoits who have demanded hefty amounts of ransom for their release. ‘Many Hindus pay regular sums as ‘bhatta’ to different groups of extortionists merely in order to be aloud to live in peace. Pak Autos, an automobile outlet belonging to a local Hindu trader in Larkana, was torched a couple of months ago when he refused to cough up the sum demanded by activists of a political party. Another Hindu businessman disclosed that he had received a call at his Karachi residence a few months ago from an activist of a Sindh nationalist party who demanded the payment of a sizeable sum from him. He tracked down the number the caller had phoned from and discovered it belonged to an agency. When he contacted the authorities and gave them this information, he was not only refused help, he was told that “the activists of different groups are important to the establishment, while the Hindus are of no use,” thereby implying that he should not expect any assistance. Says the businessman “Instead of concentrating on business, most Hindus in Pakistan are expending their energies in developing their PR with the authorities and entertaining various influentials to try and build up a support base for themselves.”

…..

Re: #220 by FarzanaVersey

So have you written any articles about Jews not being allowed to set foot in Medina?

The time for your types has come.

It is here, and now.

I hope that the current trend does not slow down.

I hope you get kicked out of India.

All`s well? Take a look...

NOT INFUSING CONFIDENCE?

Fear, shame stalk Ayodhya Muslims

TIMES NEWS NETWORK (July 23, 2005)

Ayodhya: Mohammad Walilullah cites four reasons to prove he was born under the wrong stars. He is illiterate, he is poor. To top that, he is a Muslim, born and brought up in Ayodhya, and his house lies within Dorahi Kuan, a highly sensitive point in the Ram Janambhoomi complex after the July 5 terrorist attack.

After his tailoring shop was gutted in communal riots following the Babri Masjid demolition in 1992, Wali Miyan operates from a ramshackle room next to his front verandah.

Friday was yet another eventless day till he heard about the VHP’s demand to evacuate the hundred metres of land adjacent to the RJB complex. Wali Miyan’s house is only five metres away. The TOI team visiting his shop found the old man in a foul temper, asking his wife to be “prepared for any eventuality’’. “Worse comes to worst, they will ask us to leave the place and that I shall do very happily. Enough of all this,’’ he tells the wife who was standing behind a tattered curtain.

Is it really true? Will they evacuate us? Will Mulayam Singh Yadav allow this? He has many queries that have no easy answers. Then begins his monologue about how misfortune always comes in heaps. After two deaths in the family last month, he lost his 10-yearold niece that very morning.

“Things are becoming increasingly difficult and even digging a grave can lead to objections in Ayodhya,’’ he confides.

Suddenly Walilullah falls silent. A figure in khaki is staring accusingly at him from across the road. “Why are outsiders being entertained by this tailor?’’ demands sub-inspector Deo Mani, in-charge of security in the area. “Who has allowed him to speak to the media?’’ he says, raising his voice as a crowd of silent spectators beings to collect.

“Doesn’t the old man know no ‘dramabazi’ (fooling around) is allowed within the RJB? And giving sob stories to the media. Has the b...... gone nuts?’’ the officer is now frothing at the mouth.

Wali Miyan looks ashen. “Please come inside and hide,’’ his wife whispers from behind the curtain. The old man silently shakes his head. “Bibi khud dekh lo, kaisi zalalat ki zindagi jeete hai hum log Ramji ki Ayodhya main (Lady, see for yourself what kind of humiliation we face in Ram’s Ayodhya),’’ he quietly says.

The sub-inspector now plonks himself on a chair facing his shop. Surrounded by armed jawans, he is clearly enjoying the show. His threats continue while TOI speaks with Wali Miyan..

Finally, sub-inspector Deo Mani cannot take it anymore. “All right, you wretched old man, keep talking. Let these people go and then I shall make you pay for all this jabbering,’’ he peppers his threat with choicest expletives.

The old tailor, suddenly in a gesture of defiance, which shocks everyone including the police officer, turns his back on him. Wali Miyan is weeping unabashedly. “Bibi, go and tell the world of our shame,’’ the words coming between suppressed sobs are incoherent. “You know about the prayer a caged parrot sends up each day?’’ he asks. Deo Mani, meanwhile, is nearly hysterical with rage but Wali Miyan is past caring.

“Lord almighty! It is better to die than eat a meal which makes my wings weaker,’’ he manages to complete the sentence and the translation as well.

The Lord sitting a few furlongs away may finally lend him an ear, who knows?

Editor

All numbering of iteracts appear haphazzard. My interact appearing after serial no. 3 has been given the no.212. Can you set them right please?

i will certainly not call you a loony, cause if i do then i risk being called a looney myself. `guarding faith with guns` and `being different from each other as we want to be` can summarise all the capacity of our thinkers (so called). all we hear today is that in response to the killing (no mentioning of human tragedy) the state has beefed up security with more ARMED patrols. where are we really headed?

asif

very mature article. liked it.

a pakistani

soysauce

Knowing how well you can think on some matters, I seriously doubt you yourself see any rationality in what you have written.

Re: # 213
Historically many leaders have invoked the name of God in times of war.
True, and especially during the Crusades.

Political leaders don`t act inconsistently, and shift justifications, just for religious reasons.

I guess you don`t really believe in objectivity then. All I hear you saying is discard what you see, there are motivations that only I can see. I think that`s called subjective opinion in most places.

Re: # 211
If those affected see themselves as subjects of a crusade then that too is the truth.
Is this so simple? When an individual or a group cannot bring themselves to speak for a nation without some due process, can it be done so for a religion? Also consider that the concept of organized religion should preclude a crusade. This cannot be left between an individual and her God.So , if a crusade is claimed, the spokesmen and office bearers of that organized religion should either come forward and accept responsibility or deny it. Would not someone do the same in case of identity theft, as has rightly been mentioned here?
And of course, as kaalchakra has mentioned, Bush seeking help from God doesnt mean that Christians are waging war on muslims.

Soysauce

Historically many leaders have invoked the name of God in times of war. Because Bush did so, that`s hardly reason enough to accuse him of being a crusader.

Political leaders don`t act inconsistently, and shift justifications, just for religious reasons.

People`s beliefs are their privileges. The only thing they reliably indicate are beliefholders` worldviews - not the reality as it exists.

Reality has a way of catching up with people sooner or later. Therefore respect for objective evidence is key to our (or any group`s) sanity and safety.

Re: # 3
kashmakash
How you dare to call yourself a Muslim unless make a declaration of your faith calling sertain people non-Muslim who call them as Muslims. My son while seeing news of killings in a mosque asked me, ``Papa, why do they kill people in the mosque?`` I said, ``Because the terrorists believe `Muslim Kafars` get segregated here.``

This faith inspired bloodshed of human beings reminds me of the great Bulle Shah who had said:-

Masjid dhaa de, mandar dhaa de, dhaa de jo kujh dhenda
ik bande da dil nah dhaawin Rab dillaan wich rehnda

I would suggest to the secular government of India to make an amendment in their constitution to declare all religious bigots and fanatics as `Maleechhas` and treated likewise.

Re: # 210
What beliefs? And on whose part? Did Bush say he is guided by god on a whim? Did he not mean it?
The empirical evidence is that there is a war on the justification for which changes depending on who you ask and when you ask. If those affected see themselves as subjects of a crusade then that too is the truth.
Your objective beliefs and two dollars will not even buy a cup of latte.

re: soysauce # 209

Are those beliefs objectively refutable? What kind of evidence will it take to refute those beliefs?

Re: # 205
Ballukhan, I think the Iraqi freedom fighters understand quite well that all the denials are for domestic consumption and that what`s going bears the hallmark of the crusades. How one phrases the conflict depends on who the audience is. Colonial regimes used the moral tone when it suited them (civilize and reform the natives to their larger domestic audience, and profit and loss to their shareholders and stakeholders) to hide the mercantile nature of their enterprise. In reality, it was a bit of everything. Even many of the colonized came to believe in the moral uprightness of the occupiers and the rationale for the occupation. When I read Gandhiji I am repeatedly struck by how long it took him to transcend the prevailing mythology about the lawfulness and moral superiority of the Brits. Perhaps it is a reflection of our times where everything happens doublequick that the occupied of Iraq are able to see thru the moral vacuity of their occupation. In your protestations I see a deliberate attempt to slur over the differences between those fighting occupiers of their lands and others. To you they are all jehadists. Tom Freedman would be proud.
Tell me again, do you see christians going around apologizing for what`s done in their name? I understand the evangelists are doing great business in iraq now that there is a favorable regime. Christians at large have no need to apologize (even with an overtly christian administration that initially codenamed WOT as Operation Crusade) because they as a whole have nothing to do with what`s going on.

Some things can be checked out fairly quickly and objectively.

Pick up the major newspapers of three or four different types of countries. Go through their opinion columns. See who repeatedly uses the word `crusades.`

See if there is a significant overlap between the people who see crusades being launched everywhere and those who view the concept of Jihad positively.

It may be that both crusades and jihads will be found to be the constructions of the same mindset.

I totally agree with ballukhan #205.
soysauce, Even if a group of ppl pedal or buy bullshit like ``we should invade their lands and convert them to christianity`` to make a heady cocktail of religion and nationalism, it shud not be the case for another group of ppl buying parallel bullshit.

Last question to mr. soysaouce................do you endorse Al-Qaeda`s reactions as representative of your sentiments???

``Yet, no one has blamed the christians for all the fighting and has asked the good christians to disown them.
It seems that you have bought into the propaganda that unless there is evidence to the contrary, all muslims must think alike and bear responsibility. How come this doesn`t apply to the ``other terrorists?````

Very interesting statements made.
But that is exactly the line of arguments of these jehadists have been taking.....and I would say that you have unwittingly lapped all of them.........ask this, who wants all the muslims to view all the current belligerence from the western world as a reaction stemming from the `supposed` religious hostilities. Ask yourself, why do these jehadists insist on refering to western reaction from the view point of religious wars?
There is no question of US or UK labelling these as Crusades or Religious wars, infact this has been denied over and over again by all.................................it is only plain and simple a war between the neo-fascist religious extremists and the western liberal democratic values..................there cannot be any question of any christian apology for the current war against Al-Qaeeda in Afghanistan or elsewhere..................this is plainly ridiculous and exactly the bait set up by these jehadists that mr.soysouce has taken up gleefully...............

We may be moving toward a new social contract. One in which everyone must, by necessity, assume the very worst about everyone else.

Should we ever reach that stage of development, we will live in a much fairer world. There would be no free lunch. Trust will not be guranteed. It will need to be actively earned. And then carefully maintained. For it`s very unreasonable to demand that others trust us merely on the strength of our good word.

All social interactions beyond primitive units (family, tribe) will become quite costly. The less a person can be trusted, the more the person will have to pay upfront for the privilege of interacting socially. These costs will change over time, getting adjusted through a market mechanism.

So what`s visualized here is a sort of market for social interactions among inherently and openly antagonistic actors, in which people will participate as both individuals and as parts of preferred groups.

Conflict theory.

Now that the Bedouins are rising, and the Angrez Rani is at half-mast, the equations change.

Farzana, what will the butt-patting famous bearded Editor backed by whoever paid his bills in England do now? Who will be the next highest bidder?

Mittals or Hindujas?

Interesting, no?

Somebody is going back to the tents and camels, and it isn`t me.

Re: # 189
It`s simple really. You are only decent if you assume the best and give the other person the benefit of the doubt.

Re: # 195
Ballukhan, ``we should invade their lands and convert them to christianity`` so said/says the high priestess of the dominant party in the US, ``god guides me in these decisions`` says the ``leader of the free world`` refering to his war on terror and the good christians Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi constantly refer to the moral superiority of the western (read christian) world and these guys between them command enough destructive force to conquer the whole world and their nations have a history of colonizing or decimating other peoples. The freedom fighters in iraq understand very well what is going on and what will win them the PR war and consistently refer to the occupiers as Crusaders, a term just as potent in the middle east as Terrorists is to the western mind.
Yet, no one has blamed the christians for all the fighting and has asked the good christians to disown them.
It seems that you have bought into the propaganda that unless there is evidence to the contrary, all muslims must think alike and bear responsibility. How come this doesn`t apply to the ``other terrorists?``

kaal,

[...In fact, if I don`t display a very helpful attitude in catching the culprit, I shouldn`t blame others for seriously doubting my claims of identity confusion...]

what struck me about the pronouncements of muslim leders in london yesterday was the lack of any statements ((unless i missed those) along the lines of `we call upon all of our various islamic organizations to help the larger british community in dealing with this tragedy, we urge our volunteers to help the victims/their families and the british authorities in any way they can, etc...`

instead all i read was the standard `we condemn this` and to top that `the govt should provide extra security to mosques and other islamic centers`...

re: Ballukhan # 195

IMO, you are making an enormously important point. Many others too are reaching similar conclusions.

Salim very aptly likened the situation to the case of identity theft.

If someone steals my identity and commits murder in my name, I had better bemoan my stars, and be prepared to see my life turned upside down. The last thing I need to be doing is to be sanctimonious about my right to be left alone, or worse, assert my freedom to `understand` the motivations of the murderer.

In fact, if I don`t display a very helpful attitude in catching the culprit, I shouldn`t blame others for seriously doubting my claims of identity confusion.

veeresh:

one need not have expected or asked for an apology for the other to offer one. but if you insist. consider it withdrawn.

if i ever do have the chance to cross the ``neel paani`` (or has it truly gone kaala) in this lifetime, i will consider your gracious offer of hospitality.

and now my return wears thinner than thin. until the next time.

Re: # 196,

Dear Ana,

Hello!! Did I at any stage even indicate or hint that I was upset or required an apology on your choice of expletives? Come on!!

I insist you withdraw your apology to me, because it is not what we are here for. After that, next time you are in India or UK, please have a meal with my family and me.

OK?

+++

What are the ``assumptions`` I made about you?

None.

All I am saying is that this whole business of people ``of a particular community`` saying that ``look at us, we are minorities, therefore bad things happen to us, therefore feel sorry for us - but excuse us while we steal your oil or take away your iron ore or live on your land or eat your food or bomb your trains, buildings and planes or sell you narcotics`` is bunkum.

+++

As for London, in more ways than a few, lady, when not in India or elsewhere, I live off Edgeware, a couple of hundred metres from the Tube Station, and I am bearded, swarthy as well as look very Islamic.

And I shall use that Tube Station when it re-opens, for sure.

+++

i need to make a clarification here. or rather i should say i would like to make a clarification here, even though it may not be needed:

in my post #173 that i wrote to farzana this line could possibly have been misconstrued:

but when you write of your fear, and anger, and the fear for muslims, i don`t suppose you could consider going beyond that, beyond the hate-spewing, to indians of any creed . . .

the hate-spewing i referred to was not farzana`s. it is all you all`s who have been posting all sorts of insults, and other garbage. no matter what deep and yes, divisive disagreements you all have between each other, farzana has not stooped to calling people assholes or idiots or bastards here. nor has she been posting article after article regarding someone`s faith. i, on the other hand, do not possess such restraint when it comes to gaalis.

and along with my apologies to farzana, the only other person i will apologize to here is veeresh. my calling him an ``arsehole`` and telling him to bugger off, although it felt good at the time to release anger, was uncalled for. and if veeresh continues to make assumptions about me that are baseless, if i come across them again (which i probably will), they will either be dealt with in silence, or a less emotional response. and i understand what i will get dealt with, if i do the same. and if my words offended those they weren`t directed to - my regrets.

as a popular punjabi line (in pakistan) goes: tire painkchar, khabraaN mukkh gaye.

Re: # 188

You may identify yourself with any of the `causes` around us ranging from urban poverty, banning illegal fur trade, hanging narcotic suppliers to making available clean drinking water in the Indian villages.
But right now the issue is that when some right wing extremist turns any one of these issues into mr soysouce`s issues and then blasts the UN or the parliament then would mr. soysouce like the entire world to think that this act was done with his consent?
I think we are missing the point I am making. It is certainly not the concern of IM-s by default- you are only obiliged to mourn for the loss of that innocent bystander. But if an act is perpeterated by persons impersonating themselves as representative of the IM`s sentiment then it does become a concern of the IM-s. The same logic goes for all the hindus not condemning the riots whipped up by the RSS and VHP in the name of `hindu-backlash` !!

My last comment.
I would be disappointing you if I tell you that our views are identical on most of the issues..........there was no disagreement on the Bunti or Babli board and was praised as the best exposition on Advani`s Pakistan visit. I have also not stopped appreciating your articles fearing that some hindu may consider it to be another muslim huddle............I read all your articles and let each word of yours seep within in order to understand your concerns...............Our disagreements are few but very obvious when it comes to approaching the communal politics (including Islamists of all varieties) that is played by those who would like to dispossess US of our `liberal` values in a secular setup.

We should listen to Jang`s advice against the use of derogatory words against the author.

Not only is this behavior improper, it is also completely self-defeating. We do not need to adopt extreme positions - either behaving like politically correct, deaf and mute lambs, or getting personally abusive. In both cases, we give a pass to the viewpoints with which we may disagree.

I am aware that there is something of a much larger magnitude that ought to and will be discussed.

I just have to make these last comments...

Re: # 184

[My final remark. Whether it was the Bunty or Babli Board or the Subject of `Women as Witches` the `praise` has been only to the extent of the agreement on those issues..................stereotyping someone as a ``poster-boy`` does not dilute the strength of the disagreements.]

There have always been more disagreements; you have yourself been on boards where the good IM vs. bad IM game has been played, and this is not new; I would be disappointed if disagreements are diluted; in my original post (#40) I did not use the word `praise` or did I make a reference to the salutory comment. In fact, I specified where you stood vis a vis my general views.

All I had stated was, ``I am making an exception here to mention one post (#105). This person has ‘historically’ been against most of what I write, thinks I have jihadi sympathies, but he has pointed out one of the most important statements I have made: “The Hindutva parties will once again talk about no peace talks with Pakistan. Don’t. We the people did not ask you to. That was not in your manifesto when you were voted to power. It was not in anyone’s manifesto. We know that all treacle is sticky.”

Please do not worry. Even on those two other boards, I did not point out the `praise`.

I do not wish to extend this post to you because anything I say now will have some repercussions.
- - -
Dear dost-mittarji:

It is just so unfortunate that one portion of your post became a point of discussion. Again, it will be prudent for me not to comment further...

Regards,
Farzana
- - -
Chowk Editors:

I had no idea you had so much faith in my reserves of patience and inherent strength that you have let slanderous posts pass through. Thank you.

Re: # 187....Watch the canadians now!!.Make sure ye don`t hang out next to them pak`s from now on, or you might find yerself deported and at the mercy of some goon in pakland.Shun them like the plague for your own good.

``Let`s see - dog is a four legged animal, so is a cat. So what is being said here is that a four legged animal is killing a four legged animal. How can this be distinguished from suicide?``

Sunlight, you have captured all of the reasoning behind about 70% of the arguments presented on the subject of terrorism.

Terrorism could not have survived (and will not survive) without the continuous support of its own unique ideosophy (ideology dressed as philosophy) and its own unique relilogic (religion filling the space of logic).

re: soysauce # 188

I have tried to think about this issue but haven`t resolved it one way or another. To put it provocatively, why should decent folks not assume the worst about each other?

As you can see, this is not just a rhetorical question.

Re: # 184
Ballukhan I have a problem with your line of argument (which btw is all too common). If a muslim identifies with a ``muslim cause`` ipso facto then I have a problem with it. If a muslim does not identify with such cause, there is no need to declare that. Decent folks should assume the best and get on. Same goes for hindus and ``hindu causes.``

Extrapolating Romair.. it will be interesting to hear a mush speech at G-8 meeting .. the one about distinction between terrorist and freedom fighters. Canada is a wimp and racist..the way they dealt with death of canadian citizenery on an AI flight hijackers.. had this been a british calendonian airways flight..

#182 by Romair on July 7, 2005 8:39am PT


Interestingly, the country that has suffered the most deaths, since 9/11, from al-Qaeda, is Pakistan.


And yet no western newspaper has a headline :We`re all pakis now...wonder why that is? It`s cos most people in the west know you pakis had a major role in feeding the jihadi monster that `s killing a bunch of people....


For example, Americans (and the British govt.) do not consider the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqis, to be terrorism.


ACtually the majority of American people consider that to be terrorism....most of the 100K have been killed by sunni nuts blowing themselves up in markets and (shia)mosques...


So far, only those countries that are involved in Iraq seem to be targeted. This indicates the attacks are not random.


Where have I heard that before? Oh yes...the neocons keep saying that...those darn mooselimbs attacked us on 9/11 so we must attack those mooselimbs(in Iraq)...capt clueless is a closet neocon? who`da thunk?

soysauce (183):

yes! right on. but then we didn`t need this remark to know that racism is alive and well. men and now women as well are still being called to take up the white man`s burden. a burden that still leaves so much burden for the ``other`` to deal with.

my time is up. take care.

``and my beef is that this becomes by default an Indian Muslim problem. I seriously object to that everytime.....``

Yes, I agree to this. But let me qualify. Imagine if the Ayodhya attack was successful and the LeT was able to blast away the so called janambhumi with their Paki grenades and announce to the world about the fitting response that they have delivered for the Babri Masjid demolition (while ridiculing the IM`s lack of faith in the almighty at the same time as a cause of their inaction!). All this is very much in the agenda of these purelander Jehadis who claim superiority in faith (as if they hold the monopoly over who the almighty should consider to be pure and faithful).I think WE have tolerated enough of such violent and stupid acts from these mullahs.....these gun running drug peddlers cannot fool us anymore with their claims of following an imblemished Islam. It is time WE consider them as OUR problem as well (and stop blaming others for the `root causes`). It is time WE unequivocally condemn and isolate these rascals who are trying to usurp the claim of speaking on behalf of every muslim who has been a victim of communal stereotyping.

And what is this publicity gimmick by this dastardly and cowardly attack on London? Do we only mourn the 40 people who died or it isn`t it OUR duty to discredit those who claim to have the monopoly to speak and respond on OUR behalf...........Was`nt the attack on the innocent Londoners an attempt to reinforce the stereotype of Islam as a belligerent religion? Yes, they are OUR problem as well just as Modi and Togadia are as much a problem of the Hindu community - and we better do something about it now!!!

My final remark. Whether it was the Bunty or Babli Board or the Subject of `Women as Witches` the `praise` has been only to the extent of the agreement on those issues..................stereotyping someone as a ``poster-boy`` does not dilute the strength of the disagreements.

Re: # 180
i find blair`s response somewhat curious. . . why should talking about africa and poverty affect the senseless actions of these terrorists? doesn`t he get it? the bin ladens of the world do not want you to talk about ``africa`` and ``poverty`` -- they want you to leave bloody well enough alone.

I find his remarks curious too - but for completely different reasons. The implication seems to be - here we are, a civilized people, trying to help you barbarians and all we get is a kick in the teeth. Blair`s repeated conflation of the west and civilized world makes clear that racism is alive and well among the massahs. It`s the same old white man`s burden when it comes to loan forgiveness, killing other people so they may be free, etc.

It will be interesting to see what the reaction of the British people will be towards their govt., now. Obviously, these terrorist attacks have a direct link to the British involvement in Iraq. So far, only those countries that are involved in Iraq seem to be targeted. This indicates the attacks are not random. They seem to have some direct political purpose behind them. In Spain, the reaction of the people was to vote out the government that had placed their military in Iraq.

Interestingly, the country that has suffered the most deaths, since 9/11, from al-Qaeda, is Pakistan.

There seems to be a major disconnect on the definition of the term terrorism, which is now created a vicious circle of violence. For example, Americans (and the British govt.) do not consider the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqis, to be terrorism. I am not quite sure what category those dead people are place under. Arabs, obviously consider those deaths to be a product of terrorism by the USA and the Brits. And they consider it specifically terrorism with a Christian and/or Jewish angle. Since the countries carrying out the bombings are primary Christian countries. And Israel is supporting them, overwhelmingly, in their efforts (Israel, being the only country in the world, whose population supports the war in Iraq, now).

Americans (and Brits etc.), obviously, do consider the attacks, like the current one in London to be terrorism. However, the organizations carrying them out (Al-Qaeda, in this case) consider such acts to be counter-terrorism, i.e. they feel they were terrorized first. They portray it, on their websites, as revenge for the killings in Iraq.

This is a very dangerous disconnect. If each side feels its actions are not terrorism, while the action of the other side are terrorism, then this circle will just widen, with no end in side. The USA (and Al-Qaeda) is deeply caught in this circle, now. It has developed a life of its own for them. The Brits are slowly entering this circle, due to their involvement in Iraq. Canada, wisely, never got involved in Iraq. And hence has been able to stay away from this circle. As did other countries like Germany and France. Spain has now taken itself out of the circle, after the recent terrorism in Spain.

Britain is somewhere in between USA and Canada, i.e. its people are against its participation in the Iraq war. While its govt. is heavily involved in it. It will be interesting to see, which way it tilts. Will it increase its efforts in Iraq, and go in with more armament and attacks? Like the USA. Or will it withdraw, like Spain did…………….

Re: # 176 DM

Farazana ``pundits-deserved-it`` Versey is showing a ``mirror`` .... and Mr. Dost-Mitter is enthralled by it :)

Actually - that`s the problem to begin with. People have been looking at ``mirrors`` hold up by muslim communalists and cry-babies for last 57 years - see where it has taken the country. Continous pandering towards these elements has kept muslims backwards as ever and communal relations as bad as ever. And yet, no lesson ahs been learnt. Fools are still enthralled by mirrors and smokes.

You are old but there is still time to grow out of such stupidity. Farzana is an unabased communal freak - such people must be countered, not pandered to.

veeresh:

i am talking to a friend of mine who is not too far from where the blasts occurred, and what we say and what is between us matters much more to me than what your distorted opinion of me is. he had just missed the tube where two people died. he is well, though obviously affected, but he allays my fears and worries about him and everyone by telling me that life goes on otherwise we let the terrorists win.

nowhere, nowhere on this page did i condone what happened in ayodhya. and my criticism here has been for muslim and hindu extremists alike. as for my comments on the london attacks, i was just writing up something in my ilog before he got in touch with me, it`s not finished yet, but here`s how it begins:

london calling is now london reeling from the attacks that apparently al-qaeda has taken responsibility for. i find blair`s response somewhat curious. . . why should talking about africa and poverty affect the senseless actions of these terrorists? doesn`t he get it? the bin ladens of the world do not want you to talk about ``africa`` and ``poverty`` -- they want you to leave bloody well enough alone. they want the raj via senseless killings for themselves.

i hope that those i know in london are okay. i see one online, and am relieved. what a bloody f ucking mess, again.

it`s really sad that there are those of us, north, south, east and west, who cannot see how we are all connected by so much but especially life, and they want to take so much of that away. to prove what in the bloody end?

when will it all end?

my friend is well, bless him and he said these people, who claim to be doing this for the glory of allah and islam, are so far gone. . . there is nothing left of conscience, of life, of god in these people. i wonder at what point were they ever ``here`` in the world. there must have been a point. nothing except a complete disconnect from life can prompt such barbaric, murderous acts.

and the bloody murderers are taking us with them.

what is it going to take to stop all this

when will it all end?

- -

if you must put it in sports terms, the ONLY team i am batting for, veeresh malik, is the team that believes in the sanctity of ALL life. and i am wondering where that team has disappeared to.

face it veeresh, you`re attacking the wrong person here.

Re: # 173 by ana:

i have learned from making the same mistake myself, and by observing the more literary types here that we tend to show what approximates a certain condescencion towards those who do not quite see or may not be aware of various vehicles of expression, and thus are referred to as literalists, or dismissed. i don`t believe that benefits either those of us who know, or those of us who don`t understand. if we want to share what we write with everyone, then it doesn`t hurt to remember that everyone reads differently, with the tools they have (or don`t).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Literalist says: ``Dog killed cat``

Ana`s interpretation: Let`s see - dog is a four legged animal, so is a cat. So what is being said here is that a four legged animal is killing a four legged animal. How can this be distinguished from suicide? Also, consider the ideal of four-leggedness, which it can be said is manifesting itself in a canine manner as well as a feline manner. If we can assume that the manifestation of an ideal must deviate from the ideal itself in some way, how can the deviation of canineness from ideal four-leggedness and the deviation of felineness from ideal four-leggedness respectively be related to the suicide or extinction of one form of four-leggedness by another? Another perspective is that four-leggedness survives, with canineness as one manifestation and felineness as another, so perhaps from one viewpoint it can be said that there is really no killing.

All in good fun Ana :-) hope this statement is quite literal.

whats with all calling the author (or anyone) bitch? or arsehole? reminds of juveniles who thought using english cuss-words is cooler than m@ch@d/BCh@d stuff. which brings me to a muse..is saying arsehole more sofisticated than saying asshole?

Re: # 175

latest count - 40 dead in london.

Dear Farzana:

I am sorry that my comment caused you some difficulty. You are not a ``bad apple``, just a different variety than golden delicious -maybe Granny Smith- which may taste different but is equally nutritious. You show us -the majority- a mirror but the face we see in it is much more distorted than we see in our own mirrors, so we think that the mirror you are showing us is also distorted. If, like Khushwant Singh, you adopted the moto of ``with malice towards one and all` we would perhaps start eating that Granny Smith and benefit from its nutritious content.

I had stated in my earlier comment that I did not expect that incident to have any serious repercussions. Here is the proof in the pudding:

Lukewarm response to VHP bandh

July 07, 2005 17:01 IST


The Vishwa Hindu Parishad-sponsored bandh, in protest against the Ayodhya attack, in Maharashtra, Bihar and Assam
on Thursday failed to evoke much response, excepting stray incidents of violence.

Hundreds of activists trying to enforce the bandh were rounded up in several places.

In Nagpur, some activists tried to set ablaze a bus, while others smashed windscreens of two other buses in the city.

Several schools and colleges remained closed due to non-availability of the school transport system, police said, adding that business establishments and shops were closed.

6 militants storm Ayodhya, killed
About 15 persons were detained in Kampte near Nagpur for forcing shopkeepers to down shutters, the police said.

In Bhandara, a state transport bus came under attack. In other parts of Maharashtra, however, the bandh barely evoked any response as business establishments and schools were open and traffic plied as usual.

Mumbai was exempted from the bandh.

There was little impact in Patna, where life went on as usual as banks, schools, business establishments and government offices remained open and recorded normal attendance. Traffic movement was also not affected at all.

More than 450 Sangh Parivar activists were rounded up in various places in Bihar as they were trying to enforce the
bandh, official sources said, adding that in Bhagalpur some activists trying to block trains were chased away by the police.

BJP to hold nationwide protest on Wednesday: Advani
Reports from Bhagalpur, Ara, Buxar, Lakhisarai and Chapra said the bandh evoked good response with big shops and
business establishments downing their shutters and vehicular traffic plying in lesser numbers.

In Gaya town, around 75 bandh supporters, including senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader and former legislator Prem Kumar were detained while leading a procession.

In Assam, normal life was affected although no untoward incident was reported.

Shops and business establishments were closed and vehicles remained off the road in Guwahati, sources said, adding that attendance in government offices, banks and other institutions was thin.

Most of the schools were however closed due to summer vacations in Guwahati.

Rail and air services, however, functioned as per schedule, sources said, adding that the response was total in Barak Valley as well as in the districts in Upper Assam.

In Madurai, ten Bajrang Dal activists led by district unit chief Saravanan, were arrested when they tried to burn an
effigy of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and the Pakistani flag on Thursday, the police said.

The police seized the effigy and the flag before the protestors could set them ablaze.

And now, Farzana and ``Ana``, do the two of you have any views or comments on the London bombings?

So far we`ve heard justifications basis the existence of Shiv Sena and RSS from the two of you, now?

Face it ladies, you are batting for the wrong team, and you know it.

arjuna (171):

eesh. kindly do not gloat over such things. and i don`t know how discerning (yes i saw the wink) i am, or you are for that matter.

hasta la vista!

farzana (168):

on a more serious note, i don`t really give a damn who`s happy by this, or who isn`t. as you said, these are not trivial matters. :)

and, farzana, i have noticed what a lot of these arseholes are saying, these are the same folks (or possibly just one with various masks) who everytime their fingers tap tap on a keyboard are reading straight from a rashtriya swayamsevak sangh document. i`m disgusted by it, and i have said so. i know what you were responding to, but you will brand us with literalism anyway.

no, directing outrage does not make one ``balanced`` farzana, but here`s the thing, you are someone who believes in ``your silence will not protect you`` when it comes to what you feel are matters vital to muslims. your silence will not protect you against what are acts of terror committed by anyone. not just non-muslims.

when you wrote that you mourn for the one lone bystander, i understood that this in fact was your response to both sides. this was where the violence ended, in the death of one person. such a needless death. all this violence is needless.

but when you write of your fear, and anger, and the fear for muslims, i don`t suppose you could consider going beyond that, beyond the hate-spewing, to indians of any creed who ``akhthoo`` on the togadia, thackeray, advani types, and who are themselves afraid, could you? do you really believe that besides the idiot(s) who keeps bringing anti-muslim trash, that no other hindu who responded on this board felt that one person had indeed died simply because they like you in regards to something else, kept quiet about it and directed their outrage towards the ``invisible`` attackers?

your perception of how others perceive him as the ``poster boy`` and yourself as ``the bad apple`` is almost like referring to him as the ``uncle tom``. there are no ``ideals`` here at chowk, or anywhere really for that matter. he is who he is. you are who you are. whatever that means here.

no, i`m not expecting a response. i will be gone within a couple of hours anyway. i won`t be returning to this board.

~a~

p. s. i have learned from making the same mistake myself, and by observing the more literary types here that we tend to show what approximates a certain condescencion towards those who do not quite see or may not be aware of various vehicles of expression, and thus are referred to as literalists, or dismissed. i don`t believe that benefits either those of us who know, or those of us who don`t understand. if we want to share what we write with everyone, then it doesn`t hurt to remember that everyone reads differently, with the tools they have (or don`t).

Any case - hats off to the Security Personnel at the attack site. They saved the day - they are the heroes. Probably one of the few suicide attacks that has been successfully stopped.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=73998

#153 by ana on July 6, 2005 5:41pm PT

Ah..I see other (discerning;-) people saw the same thing I did...

Farzana...may I suggest a tactical retreat to your standard fallback position: It`s only 20 words of the thousands of words I`ve written...

#163 by iron_mask on July 7, 2005 0:07am PT


Re: # 155 you have put farzana babe; the Malabar Hill living, Rs200 a cup of Coffee drinker at TAJ, The Elitist ;


Her tastes are a bit more plebeian...the coffee she drinks at the sea lounge is only about 100Rs...unless FV led a crusade to have the prize increased for added snot value...

#168 by FarzanaVersey on July 7, 2005 2:20am PT


You do not know who/what sets the bar for me, although literalism never fails to work for you. Never mind. I was responding to a statement where I was told that if I directed some of my outrage against those who sponsored terrorism, then I could have been more balanced.


The fact that thackrey has said something was your rebuttal....The obvious point was that you don`t need to balanced because thackrey isn`t balanced....it`s not literalism(or some other construct fit only for a bombay tabloid)..it`s plain english...and simple logic...


The comment was well-intentioned, but I do not feel expressing outrage is what makes anyone balanced. This where I brought in the names I did to show up just how simplistic it would be.


Their world view is simple..muslims bad, hindus victims...you`ve said you shouldn`t be questioned because they aren`t questioned...clearly you are at par with luminaries like thackrey and togadia...just on the other side of the divide...

The people who matter deal with the possibility of life being too short by living it...not by trying so hard to `kill` an invisible enemy. But then, for some people that is the only evidence to prove they are alive.
- - -
#148 by arjun_m:
[#140 by FarzanaVersey on July 6, 2005 1:45pm PT
But Modi, Togadia, Mayawati, Advani, Thackeray, even Chhota Rajan have spoken about “crushing” terrorism….I do not think they are particularly balanced.

Now everyone knows who sets the bar for you....The next time someone says something about muslims, ``Osama Bin Laden isn`t particularly balanced`` should be a good defense...FV logic for you....]

You do not know who/what sets the bar for me, although literalism never fails to work for you. Never mind. I was responding to a statement where I was told that if I directed some of my outrage against those who sponsored terrorism, then I could have been more balanced.

The comment was well-intentioned, but I do not feel expressing outrage is what makes anyone balanced. This where I brought in the names I did to show up just how simplistic it would be.
- - -
#153 by ana:

[you see farzana, you are writing this from your point of view, but you write it as more or less an appeal. you cannot appeal for something like ``you and i are only as different as we want to be.`` and then not be balanced…]

Re. balanced, see my earlier comment. I am surprised that what I assume is a balanced ‘appeal’ can get nullified only because, as I mentioned in another context, there is no quid pro quo…for me that lone individual who represented nothing (at least not overtly) who died in the crossfire is the only victim. (No, I am not!…this is for some others.) By the logic of balance I should then even start talking about those who could have died.

[but when you write of things as an indian and someone who loves india. . . you should not rationalize or justify your subjectivity with the very people you`ve been writing about all along as being a threat to what you love. your love for india, your being indian is independent of these folks]

These folks have their sympathisers here…and I do not believe subjectivity can be rationalised. I said it in the post, “I admit that this is not an objective piece. It has made no such claims. I started with the first person account and I ended by saying that I mourn for only the innocent bystander. Others are free to mourn for whoever/whatever they wish.”

If you notice, there really hasn’t been much mourning for anything here…the outrage against the LeT has only resulted in talk about the ‘Islamists’. Check out the posts that talk about how Muslims think they are superior, Muslims read a despicable book, they do horrendous things…and my beef is that this becomes by default an Indian Muslim problem. I seriously object to that everytime.

[yes, ballukhan did praise you for what you said, and what you said was important, but ballukhan also spoke out against the attacks. and we all read that too.]

Please. ‘Praise’ is not the word I would use, nor does it hold much importance in a discussion such as this. I merely felt that the quote he pointed to was important to what I was saying. I am sure you read the rest of what he said…

There are lots of people on Chowk who are always lying in wait for the ideal IM, and at the moment he is their poster-boy (whether he likes it or not). Since I have seen a couple of others come and go, I suppose I shall survive the ordeal of being the ‘bad apple’, so to speak.

[ i realize that my criticism sounds harsh and i didn`t intend for it to be.]

Don’t worry about that. I have never expected people to toe my line of thinking…and criticism I have been able to take because I know I am not talking about pretty flowers. Well, even if I did, there would be something to disagree with…

I know even this post might bring forth disagreements, but I will have to skip responding. There are people like Veeresh who have great hopes in me and want me to write about so many things…Thanks for your responses.

(On a lighter note: a certain mohar will be finally happy!)
- - -
#155 by veeresh:

[I await an article from Farzana about the visible suffering and mis-treated Muslim sub-groups groups, both minorities and majorities, within the larger group of Indian Muslims.]

Drat, the subgroup I wrote about are ‘aadha Mussalmans’…I suppose just being called that is ‘mistreatment’.

[But. Would Farzana wish to speak about the actual treatment of Muslim women by Muslims, not just the MPLB?]

When will you ever get satisfied? Anyway, I had written an article called ‘The Triple Conspiracy’ where some examples of women who were married to men (yeah, it happens to this day) were provided. It was “actual treatment”.

[Then here is another one, in all this Nawab of Pataudi thing lately, illegal hunting and all that, would Farzana wish to write about why the Muslim leadership as well as rank and file in India has not made any sort of statement. Especially in view of the fact that the Nawab does hold certain responsible positions within Muslim Society. I mean, why would he not be sacked from all those Muslim religious and other posts in Bhopal and Gurgaon, oopoops, sorry, Pataudi?]

I was wondering why this did not strike you earlier…This man is an idiot who was arrested (and then let out) for illegal poaching. You think this deserves a statement from Muslim organisations? Religious organisations are filled with criminals who hold respectable positions in society…do you think they will come out and admit to it? Would any religious organisation do so? And this man messed up a meeting I had with one of his close friends. The gentleman said, “Oh, you don’t realise how worried we all are about the Nawaab. I have to meet Begum Sahiba”…this is the larger society…need I even state that the person who said this is not a Muslim? When it comes to a good supper, there are no devils and angels.

[Speak about the Muslims, Farzana.]

Why? (I have, but that is another matter.) A small rock is more worried about the sea rather than other rocks.

[The truth is that there is a resurgence and growth in India that is sweeping the Muslims along too. And the status-quo sorts within the Islamic inertia levels, are they getting worried?
And you are beginning to sound like an apologist for them. Sorry, but that is the truth as I see it.]

There is a resurgence in general…but I am convinced that IMs will never look to S. Arabia or even Pakistan for sustenance. It may appear to you that I sound like an apologist, but as you point out it is the truth as you see it. ‘Truth’ cannot be so absolute. But you have your views, I have mine.
- - -
#150 by harimau:

[Er, I was just pointing out to whoever it was, who was sympathizing with your plight as a Muslima stuck in Dar-ul-Harb, that IF you had similar opinions about Hindustan you would be making a beeline for a Pakistani green card. Not doing so implied you don`t feel bad about living amongst us kaffirs and idolaters. ]

Really? I don’t see it as living among ‘kafirs’ and ‘idolaters’. Why do you see yourself from the small Muslim prism?! Come now, shake yourself up. You guys are the majority. Repeat it a few times and it will work…

[So, I was actually on your side.]

That is very brave of you given the current atmosphere…unless of course, like Balasaheb, you have set your boys on the main course while you, in someone’s memorable words, deal with this “side dish” :)

Farzana, good for you. Now teach these indoos a lesson. Please give them a slap, spank them hard. Well done.

Doesnt the rich bitch understand that Togadia, Advani and Thackrey are not the Hindu Trinity and they dont represent the prevailing Hindu sentiments. Or even that they are not blaming muslims but Pakistan and cross-border terrorism. Didnt she ever met any Hindu who`s not a Ram-bhakt or a Bajrangdali. Hasnt she known any Shaivaits who have little patience for Krishna leelas and will only ever identify Nataraja as the Ultimate Reality. Did she ever think that the You in her `You and I` could be plural and ``as different as they can ever be``.
Does the rich bitch even thinks before she writes..

Much as i abhor the writings of this wretch, she must have her say.And, she must be ready to get as good as she gives.I think she has enough thick skin to withstand.I`d rather be by the beach in Goa than stay here any longer.I invite others too to do the same.........

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212307&page=4

Re: # 157 cheap canadian whiskey...ever made your own phiskey....hic...

Re: # 155 you have put farzana babe; the Malabar Hill living, Rs200 a cup of Coffee drinker at TAJ, The Elitist ; on the spot. I will watch with interest to see how she responds....

jeez RCapri and Mike and others......life`s too short ...but one word sarcasm.....

Re: Ferzana#140

Stop beating around the bush and be honest for a change. Who is responsible for your feelings of insecurity? Is it the hindus who are daily victims of terrorism all over India or is it the Pakistani terrorists with their local supporters who are committing these acts? Every day these terrorists kill 10-15 people in Kashmir and elsewhere. You are noticeably silent about this and any other despicable muslim conduct. But you are very vocal about potential hindu reaction that may not even occur.

Tell me one thing straight - Why do muslims keep provoking hindus? Why don`t they just sign-off on the status quo and make peace with hindus? Forget about Kashmir, jihad etc. Just say all hostilities are over, we want to live peacefully and follow on that promise. That will be the end of the story. You and everyone else can live peacefully. However, if we hindus keep getting provoked, can you blame us if one day we lose it and lash out.

khamkhwa:

i think it`s past your bedtime. jao, so jao. i already know i have no business interfering in the internal affairs of the islamic republic of pakistan. but the bishop who wants to be president hasn`t figured that out yet. unko ko bhi samjhaye :)

ana...
never been more serious...if ferzana does not write such junk on chowk, macho indians won`t get angry and i wont have to issue free fatwas...infact, you too should stop defending pakistan and it`s problems...before i issue a fatwa that non-muslims have no business to interfere in the internal affairs of the islamic republic of pakistan...

khamkhwa,

i see you`re bored. and a mullah with cheap whisky at that, to change john mcenroe`s takiya kalam ``your fatwa cannot be serious.``

addendum....
please correct the date as 6th july 2005.
(too much of cheap whisky does that to you)

Farzana Versy being an indian muslima should NOT write any thing which majority of India does not like...

fatwa # 273 by mullah khamkhwa.
issued here in bananaland on 6th of juky 2006
corresponding to hejira year... errr...ummmm... forget it.

Farzana says:- ````So I do speak about Muslims as a minority group, not Muslims who have their ‘roots’ in Saudi Arabia.````

+++

I await an article from Farzana about the visible suffering and mis-treated Muslim sub-groups groups, both minorities and majorities, within the larger group of Indian Muslims.

The Muslim friends I have, they talk about such things. For example, hereditary positions at mosques, lack of decent accounts on revenues and expenditures by a variety of Muslim religious and similar leaderships, these are the issues.

Come on Farzana, right about them?

Or are we still going to keep writing about imaginary ``Bh***ee`` Colonies in Dadar?

+++

So, while it is easy to blame everything, including unrepaired fax machines, on Hindu-Muslim amity or lack thereof, fact remains, not too many people buy tha line anymore. Even the Bombay-Mumbai Bandh seems to have fallen flat on its face. Ahmed, Ashok, Alex and Abraham, all need to get to work, it seems.

But. Would Farzana wish to speak about the actual treatment of Muslim women by Muslims, not just the MPLB?

Or, would Farzana wish to write about Ahmeddiyas and how they are treated by other Muslims, even in India?

Then here is another one, in all this Nawab of Pataudi thing lately, illegal hunting and all that, would Farzana wish to write about why the Muslim leadership as well as rank and file in India has not made any sort of statement. Especially in view of the fact that the Nawab does hold certain responsible positions within Muslim Society. I mean, why would he not be sacked from all those Muslim religious and other posts in Bhopal and Gurgaon, oopoops, sorry, Pataudi?

+++

Speak about the Muslims, Farzana.

The truth is that there is a resurgence and growth in India that is sweeping the Muslims along too. And the status-quo sorts within the Islamic inertia levels, are they getting worried?

And you are beginning to sound like an apologist for them. Sorry, but that is the truth as I see it.

+++

Pakistanis are playing very dangerous good cop/bad cop game with India. During their democratic days, their army played the spoiler role while the prime minister was the good guy but ``his hands were tied”. Now, General Mushy is the peace loving good guy while Jihadis are the uncontrollable rascals bent upon mischief.

Pakistani rulers need to control all of their citizens - normal folks as well as the lawless, whether they are in wazirastan or their portion of Kashmir.

Otherwise, someday, even hinjRa Indian leadership will develop enough nerve to get in the snake pits and do the roto rooter job themselves. I hope the clean up job is done sooner, one way or another.

farzana (#140):

well arjun beat me to it, but i`ve been thinking about those very same lines that he commented on and how to respond to it.

so let me just ask you point-blank: why must what togadia, or advani, or thackeray say influence how you write? in your entire response which i read carefully. . . this was one of the most baffling statements i have ever read. togadia and thackeray are clearly not balanced. but what in the world do they have to do what you have to say. i can see it in terms of responding to them but even then. one should hope that you would be more balanced in your writing because of who you are and what you stand for. what you say reads like these people aren`t particularly balanced, therefore i see no need to be either. there is no metaphor here. that is what it reads as. does the fact that these people just talk about crushing terrorism (and hypocritically so) mean that you cannot be objective?

you see farzana, you are writing this from your point of view, but you write it as more or less an appeal. you cannot appeal for something like ``you and i are only as different as we want to be.`` and then not be balanced, and then top that off by saying that ``it could have been more balanced had i spoken out . . . . but modi, togadia, mayawati, advani. . . . I do not think they are particularly balanced.`` forgive me, but your appeal just loses all credibility. today only ends today when we are able to face the truth, to speak out against attacks like this, from your heart farzana. when you realize that what happened to you in that shop, as much as you perceived it as prejudice (and i am not questioning you on that), should not have kept a mature, aware writer like you from maintaining your balance.

you lost your sense of proportion here. . . and that response you made is indication of that. you are not the spokesperson for muslims farzana, you are not the spokesperson for what happens in pakistan, no matter what some people think. but when you write of things as an indian and someone who loves india. . . you should not rationalize or justify your subjectivity with the very people you`ve been writing about all along as being a threat to what you love. your love for india, your being indian is independent of these folks. i would hate to hear you say one day in your responses that togadia and advani have spoken against communalism, i do not think they are particularly balanced to defend your own stand. be it for or against. what does farzana versey think about the attack on the temple. you answered it, you are only mourning for that one bystander. does that mourning exclude you from speaking out more against the action? i guess it does, for now. you and i really are as different, not just as we want to be, but as we have become, as we make ourselves to be.

think about that one. and also, yes, ballukhan did praise you for what you said, and what you said was important, but ballukhan also spoke out against the attacks. and we all read that too.

i realize that my criticism sounds harsh and i didn`t intend for it to be. but i found myself feeling rather baffled upon reading that. and disappointed. i don`t expect you to respond to this. i`m just sounding out my thoughts.

best ~ ana

Re: # 91
Beejay,
``The whole world knows that there are deep underlying divisions within India based on religion, just like there are similar ones related to castes, languages, etc. Yet the vast majority goes on with its life. Over time, maybe these divisons will vanish, or not! Small pockets of trouble makers will always be there – it’s time to get USED to that obvious fact! So what? The country will go on just fine, the way India always does.

In summary, while I see that you would be upset (as any Indian ought to be) at these developments, the more important thing is to find POSITIVE acts one could do to address them! Preaching to the converts is not it! ``
Well said and I agree with you. The only thing I want to add is that more of us should be more candid about our warts, like you have been. Then perhaps people would be less inclined to pointing them over and over again.

Re: # 145
iron_mask bhaiya, as Hindus we do not need to feel defensive about or let the focus shift from ``LeT and ISI mob of GHQ Rawalpindi``.Besides, the issue in Farzanas perception is certainly not a non issue and if it is not a non issue(which we are here to examine), then it certainly is at least as big an issue as the ``LeT and ISI mob of GHQ Rawalpindi``, if not bigger.

Ref FarzanaVersey #140

{[PS. She is NOT making a beeline to the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi for a green card. She knows what happens to Shias and would happen to Ismailis in Pakistan. Or even just to women.]

It has nothing to do with what happens to Shias or Ismailis (a part of my family was there) or what happens to women. One, I don’t make a beeline for anything. Two, I have a country, I have a nationality – only because I am not obsequious it does not mean I do not owe allegiance to either. It is because I do that I feel the need to voice my thoughts. I know it would be easier to look the other way and enjoy an ayurvedic massage. And talk about how it is still raining…}

Er, I was just pointing out to whoever it was, who was sympathizing with your plight as a Muslima stuck in Dar-ul-Harb, that IF you had similar opinions about Hindustan you would be making a beeline for a Pakistani green card. Not doing so implied you don`t feel bad about living amongst us kaffirs and idolaters. So, I was actually on your side.

Does that clear that up?

Ref vertex #126

[Dr. Livingstone was a proponent of colonialism and so anything he wrote should be taken with a grain of salt.]

Dr. Livingstone was also a missionary... which meant that he was a man preaching the Gospel..... with some sense of what is right and wrong. He lived between 1813 and 1873. In England, slavery was outlawed in 1772 and slave trade was outlawed in 1807. So one would think that he grew up with the idea that slavery was wrong.

[Your distinction of ARAB muslims doesn`t help. I am not a proponent of putting down anyone`s race for the sake of our own. My own ancestors were probably rapist landowners who had their own low-caste slaves that they treated like complete crap....and they were most likley Hindu. So who are we to condemn anyone else through the lense of history?]

You still have to defend Prophet Mohammad`s countrymen? I see no reason for you to do that except that Ummah thing.

[As for Jews, they took and freed slaves as well. In India, though, the biggest slavers were Hindus.]

Not really. The Jews were really a bit more advanced when they landed in India iaround 297 AD. The historical record is that they did not use slave labor.

[Whereas in the middle east, a nasty slave trade developed where people were commodities, in India a social setup existed which established defacto slavery. People were sub-human here as well. Let us call a spade a spade.]

The Dalits had the entire subcontinent to roam around in. They were NOT bound to work for some uppercasteman. So long as there was no ownership of the Dalits, you can only complain of social and economic exploitation but not of deprivation of freedom.

[Whereas in Islam slaves had established their own empires and some (in particular court slaves) even had more power than a free person, had a low caste Hindu ever done the same?]

Chandra Gupta Maurya.