Dance of the wolves

Re: # 157 cheap canadian whiskey...ever made your own phiskey....hic...

Farzana Versy being an indian muslima should NOT write any thing which majority of India does not like...

fatwa # 273 by mullah khamkhwa.
issued here in bananaland on 6th of juky 2006
corresponding to hejira year... errr...ummmm... forget it.

Farzana says:- ````So I do speak about Muslims as a minority group, not Muslims who have their ‘roots’ in Saudi Arabia.````

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I await an article from Farzana about the visible suffering and mis-treated Muslim sub-groups groups, both minorities and majorities, within the larger group of Indian Muslims.

The Muslim friends I have, they talk about such things. For example, hereditary positions at mosques, lack of decent accounts on revenues and expenditures by a variety of Muslim religious and similar leaderships, these are the issues.

Come on Farzana, right about them?

Or are we still going to keep writing about imaginary ``Bh***ee`` Colonies in Dadar?

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So, while it is easy to blame everything, including unrepaired fax machines, on Hindu-Muslim amity or lack thereof, fact remains, not too many people buy tha line anymore. Even the Bombay-Mumbai Bandh seems to have fallen flat on its face. Ahmed, Ashok, Alex and Abraham, all need to get to work, it seems.

But. Would Farzana wish to speak about the actual treatment of Muslim women by Muslims, not just the MPLB?

Or, would Farzana wish to write about Ahmeddiyas and how they are treated by other Muslims, even in India?

Then here is another one, in all this Nawab of Pataudi thing lately, illegal hunting and all that, would Farzana wish to write about why the Muslim leadership as well as rank and file in India has not made any sort of statement. Especially in view of the fact that the Nawab does hold certain responsible positions within Muslim Society. I mean, why would he not be sacked from all those Muslim religious and other posts in Bhopal and Gurgaon, oopoops, sorry, Pataudi?

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Speak about the Muslims, Farzana.

The truth is that there is a resurgence and growth in India that is sweeping the Muslims along too. And the status-quo sorts within the Islamic inertia levels, are they getting worried?

And you are beginning to sound like an apologist for them. Sorry, but that is the truth as I see it.

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Re: # 155 you have put farzana babe; the Malabar Hill living, Rs200 a cup of Coffee drinker at TAJ, The Elitist ; on the spot. I will watch with interest to see how she responds....

Pakistanis are playing very dangerous good cop/bad cop game with India. During their democratic days, their army played the spoiler role while the prime minister was the good guy but ``his hands were tied”. Now, General Mushy is the peace loving good guy while Jihadis are the uncontrollable rascals bent upon mischief.

Pakistani rulers need to control all of their citizens - normal folks as well as the lawless, whether they are in wazirastan or their portion of Kashmir.

Otherwise, someday, even hinjRa Indian leadership will develop enough nerve to get in the snake pits and do the roto rooter job themselves. I hope the clean up job is done sooner, one way or another.

farzana (#140):

well arjun beat me to it, but i`ve been thinking about those very same lines that he commented on and how to respond to it.

so let me just ask you point-blank: why must what togadia, or advani, or thackeray say influence how you write? in your entire response which i read carefully. . . this was one of the most baffling statements i have ever read. togadia and thackeray are clearly not balanced. but what in the world do they have to do what you have to say. i can see it in terms of responding to them but even then. one should hope that you would be more balanced in your writing because of who you are and what you stand for. what you say reads like these people aren`t particularly balanced, therefore i see no need to be either. there is no metaphor here. that is what it reads as. does the fact that these people just talk about crushing terrorism (and hypocritically so) mean that you cannot be objective?

you see farzana, you are writing this from your point of view, but you write it as more or less an appeal. you cannot appeal for something like ``you and i are only as different as we want to be.`` and then not be balanced, and then top that off by saying that ``it could have been more balanced had i spoken out . . . . but modi, togadia, mayawati, advani. . . . I do not think they are particularly balanced.`` forgive me, but your appeal just loses all credibility. today only ends today when we are able to face the truth, to speak out against attacks like this, from your heart farzana. when you realize that what happened to you in that shop, as much as you perceived it as prejudice (and i am not questioning you on that), should not have kept a mature, aware writer like you from maintaining your balance.

you lost your sense of proportion here. . . and that response you made is indication of that. you are not the spokesperson for muslims farzana, you are not the spokesperson for what happens in pakistan, no matter what some people think. but when you write of things as an indian and someone who loves india. . . you should not rationalize or justify your subjectivity with the very people you`ve been writing about all along as being a threat to what you love. your love for india, your being indian is independent of these folks. i would hate to hear you say one day in your responses that togadia and advani have spoken against communalism, i do not think they are particularly balanced to defend your own stand. be it for or against. what does farzana versey think about the attack on the temple. you answered it, you are only mourning for that one bystander. does that mourning exclude you from speaking out more against the action? i guess it does, for now. you and i really are as different, not just as we want to be, but as we have become, as we make ourselves to be.

think about that one. and also, yes, ballukhan did praise you for what you said, and what you said was important, but ballukhan also spoke out against the attacks. and we all read that too.

i realize that my criticism sounds harsh and i didn`t intend for it to be. but i found myself feeling rather baffled upon reading that. and disappointed. i don`t expect you to respond to this. i`m just sounding out my thoughts.

best ~ ana

Ref FarzanaVersey #140

{[PS. She is NOT making a beeline to the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi for a green card. She knows what happens to Shias and would happen to Ismailis in Pakistan. Or even just to women.]

It has nothing to do with what happens to Shias or Ismailis (a part of my family was there) or what happens to women. One, I don’t make a beeline for anything. Two, I have a country, I have a nationality – only because I am not obsequious it does not mean I do not owe allegiance to either. It is because I do that I feel the need to voice my thoughts. I know it would be easier to look the other way and enjoy an ayurvedic massage. And talk about how it is still raining…}

Er, I was just pointing out to whoever it was, who was sympathizing with your plight as a Muslima stuck in Dar-ul-Harb, that IF you had similar opinions about Hindustan you would be making a beeline for a Pakistani green card. Not doing so implied you don`t feel bad about living amongst us kaffirs and idolaters. So, I was actually on your side.

Does that clear that up?

Ref vertex #126

[Dr. Livingstone was a proponent of colonialism and so anything he wrote should be taken with a grain of salt.]

Dr. Livingstone was also a missionary... which meant that he was a man preaching the Gospel..... with some sense of what is right and wrong. He lived between 1813 and 1873. In England, slavery was outlawed in 1772 and slave trade was outlawed in 1807. So one would think that he grew up with the idea that slavery was wrong.

[Your distinction of ARAB muslims doesn`t help. I am not a proponent of putting down anyone`s race for the sake of our own. My own ancestors were probably rapist landowners who had their own low-caste slaves that they treated like complete crap....and they were most likley Hindu. So who are we to condemn anyone else through the lense of history?]

You still have to defend Prophet Mohammad`s countrymen? I see no reason for you to do that except that Ummah thing.

[As for Jews, they took and freed slaves as well. In India, though, the biggest slavers were Hindus.]

Not really. The Jews were really a bit more advanced when they landed in India iaround 297 AD. The historical record is that they did not use slave labor.

[Whereas in the middle east, a nasty slave trade developed where people were commodities, in India a social setup existed which established defacto slavery. People were sub-human here as well. Let us call a spade a spade.]

The Dalits had the entire subcontinent to roam around in. They were NOT bound to work for some uppercasteman. So long as there was no ownership of the Dalits, you can only complain of social and economic exploitation but not of deprivation of freedom.

[Whereas in Islam slaves had established their own empires and some (in particular court slaves) even had more power than a free person, had a low caste Hindu ever done the same?]

Chandra Gupta Maurya.

#140 by FarzanaVersey on July 6, 2005 1:45pm PT


But Modi, Togadia, Mayawati, Advani, Thackeray, even Chhota Rajan have spoken about “crushing” terrorism….I do not think they are particularly balanced.


Now everyone knows who sets the bar for you....The next time someone says something about muslims, ``Osama Bin Laden isn`t particularly balanced`` should be a good defense...FV logic for you....

#142 and Dr Lokraj
wikipedia has several references to all kinds of disputes on Mr CG Maurya origin and Valmikis origin.. Dr Sabs post seems to originate from this. valmiki in indian ethos is considered low-caste ..there is even a valmiki caste.

in any case, successes of systematically opressed would be far and few. nor was islam considered a nice route out of slavery, irrespective of ``slavery`` of the mamluks. mostly humans in history used every tool at hand to subjugate others for personal greed, and especially religion as a tool has been the most potent.

PS
Mr Ram-bin-dashrath did all kinds of pranks to be loyal to his ``praja``, even at cost of his dear and near ones..he is considered ideal king for that kind of absolute unambiguity, which is admired by the more right-wingers.

Iron-Mask..atleast address her with some respect. I dont like her but I address her as FV-ji or Ms.Versey.

On to the article. As usual farzana babe has done her duty. she has managed to shift the focus away from the LeT and ISI mob of GHQ Rawalpindi, and onto the hindus and YOU ALL FELL FOR THIS TIME HONOURED TRICK OF THE FIFTH COLUMN IN INDIA. She now gets a bonus from them. Thank you Farzana, babe you are too cool and do your duty well. Please inform when you want to change of duties.

Re: # 145
iron_mask bhaiya, as Hindus we do not need to feel defensive about or let the focus shift from ``LeT and ISI mob of GHQ Rawalpindi``.Besides, the issue in Farzanas perception is certainly not a non issue and if it is not a non issue(which we are here to examine), then it certainly is at least as big an issue as the ``LeT and ISI mob of GHQ Rawalpindi``, if not bigger.

#136 go to the following board

An alternative muslim identity

I would say a good starting point

#136 jang you missed out on an interesting conversation between Kaalchakra and - - -...- - -

Perhaps Kaalchakra (or wheel of time as they call him) can fill you on tis ...I found tose discussions very enligtening....tey covered te presence of ateists, teists, animists etc in te grand indic traditions. Peraps Kaal could give a reprise of tat now....

what say kaal!

jang,

Chandragupta Maurya is an interesting case, however I thought his low-caste background was speculation...wasn`t he the son of royalty?

...time for a Google...