London Targeted: Numbers Game

``In this question I meant that at probably the peak of Islamic World, Taj Mahal and Istanbul Mosques etc. were created. To create such fine examples of architecture, the economic, academic, political, and social institutions must have existed to produce such capabilities and resources. I do see wealth created from oil in Arabic hands but do not see other institutions that must have existed then``

The problem Mr Kapuria is that muslim countries are stuck on a continuum from the 14th century to the 20th. Their development cannot ideally be compared to that of eastern religions like that of india and china whose religions were more more flexible. a closer comparitor would be christianity and the muslim countries of today show a similar continuum extending across the centuries, except in their case it exists simultaneously in the present age.

it will take time but they should (i think) get better with the education of girls etc.

the gulf states are an exception because of them being initially more backward, as well as orthodox (due to proximity of religous places and spread of wahabism in the 18th century), but most importantly due to oil which being unearned wealth proved to be a curse, since it took away any compulsion for intellectual exertion. Also these areas were never colonised by a western power further delaying there exposure to progressive ideals.

dear mr Kapuria

you have said ``If Islam (I differentiate muslim) really in peaceful co-existence with the ugly side of other beliefs in Jerusalem, then why there is so much turmoil.``

a cursory reading of middle eastern history would clarify most of your questions. muslims and islam were at peace with the other religions in jerusalem until the 1940s. initially when jewish settlers moved in they were buying land from the arabs, but 1930s and 40s onwards the arabs stopped selling them land when the demographic balance started shifting, the zionists (which is the name given to those Jew who wanted to establish Zion i.e. a jewish homeland) then resorted to terrorism and this situation was recitified by the holocaust, because after the second world war Jews started migrating in huge numbers and the powers that be i.e. US, UK and USSR were sympathetic towards them, with their support and that of rich jews in the UK and US a resolution was passed in the UN partitioning palestine into an israeli part and a palestinian part. it is from here that the whole trouble originates it has little to do with Islam or not repecting the ugly side of other religions.

as regards `` Sophia Mosque, now as a museum, is an example of peace existence of ugly side of what? I think it is a great example of secular Turkey. I have been there it is indeed beautiful example of secularism. I would not see it as an example of peaceful co-existance of the ugly side of other beliefs.``

Again sir Kamal ataturk`s Turkey was secularised by a brutal process murdering thousands of people with out any due process. It was a militant secularism which actually heavily damaged the cause of secularism in other muslim lands especially in the subcontinent. the aya sophia is an example of the coexistence of islam with militant secularism.

but the more important point u have raised is that of drivers of change

Change can be brought about by three sources. one is external pressure on certain muslim countries to clean up Madrasaa and school curcullums emphasizing the tolerant aspects of islam and de-emphasizing the intolerant aspects . i know for a fact that already after 9/11, the US govt did that with the unitd arab emirates and it has modified its curciculum accordingly, I dont know about Saudia and pakistan.

The second is spread of education especially secular ed. and socio economic development. which will lead to a proces similar to the west where slowly religion became a personal matter.

This procees has created secular polities in many muslim majority states like egypt, syria, tunisia, indonesia etc.

The third is a resolution of the palestinian issue where the US is acting as a one sided partisan due to internal political compulsions. this is extremely important because every day here in the middle east people see these images. The return of normalcy to afghanistan and Iraq would also help the case, because after all the afghans were living peacefully before the soviets started stirring trouble there in the 70s.

Romair # 154

`` What this means is that Al-Qaeda has political agenda, that is intertwined with religion. As does the USA. As does Pakistan. As does India, etc. It does not mean that the political agenda of Al-Qaeda, and Pakistan and USA and India etc. are similar. That is not what I implied.

It implies that the agendas of all these entities has politics intertwined with religion. It does not declare India, Pakistan, nor USA to have the same agenda as Al-Qaeda. This was to highlight to you that one you may have left the colors of religion behind. The worlds` environment still has not. And one needs to understand that environment. ``

What is Al Qaeda`s political agenda ? To expel American military bases from Saudi Arabia.

USA has moved the Central Command to Qatar. Kuwait has given US military bases.
So has UAE and Oman.

Kuwaitis are not interested in expelling the Americans. They will happily play host to the Yanks.

Sitting in Afghanistan does not help you overthrow the Saudi royal family.

Do not bring up Iraq. Iraqi Shites and Kurds who form 80% of population have their own agendas.

`` Terror is Al-Qaeda`s means to get to an agenda. It is not THE agenda. The agenda itself is political. It wants a political change of sorts, in certain places. The agenda of nearly every terrorist organization is political..........The agenda of IRA is political. The agenda of Basque Separatists is political. The agenda of Mukti Bahani was political. As is the agenda of Tamil Tigers, etc. ``

All these groups have political wings with a clear cut agenda. Awami League wanted independence for East Pakistan. LTTE wants a homeland in Northern and Eastern Sri Lanka. The IRA and Sinn Fein want Northern Ireland under Irish rule.

What is Al-Qaeda objective ?

#151 by anil
coming societies can change the law of society, which is what Manu Smriti is.

Even more, important in my view why would someone go back to Manu Smriti to define the laws of knowledge based society?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To reinforce the point made by anil, some quotes

from http://www.dlshq.org/religions/smritis.htm

``The Sruti and the Smriti are the two authoritative sources of Hinduism. Sruti literally means what is heard, and Smriti means what is remembered. Sruti is revelation and Smriti is tradition. Upanishad is a Sruti. Bhagavad Gita is a Smriti.``

`` ... If there is anything in a Smriti which contradicts the Sruti, the Smriti is to be rejected.``

As stated above, Hinduism is based on Sruti (Vedas). The rest of the religious texts are Smriti (though some people consider Bhagavad Gita to be a Sruti).

From: http://hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/hinduscriptures.htm

``Each Veda is divided into four parts, namely the Mantra, Brahmana, Aranyaka and Upanishad. The Mantra part contains mantras or hymns ... The Brahmana part ... explains the method and the manner in which the rituals (puja) are to be conducted. The Aranyakas, or the forest books deal with the significance and philosophical back ground of various rituals. The fourth part of the Veda is called the Upanishad. The Upanishads are books of deep spiritual knowledge known as Vedanta. There are hundreds of Upanishads ascribed to the four Vedas of which 12 are considered to be the most important. ``

From http://www.dlshq.org/religions/smritis.htm

``The laws for regulating Hindu society from time to time are codified in the Smritis. The Smritis have laid down definite rules and laws to guide the individuals and communities in their daily conduct and to regulate their manners and customs. ...``

``These Smritis have varied from time to time. The injunctions and prohibitions of the Smritis are related to the particular social surroundings. As these surroundings and essential conditions of the Hindu society changed from time to time, new Smritis had to be compiled by the sages of different ages and different parts of India.``

``There are eighteen main Smritis or Dharma Sastras. The most important are those of Manu, Yajnavalkya and Parasara. The other fifteen are those of Vishnu, Daksha, Samvarta, Vyasa, Harita, Satatapa, Vasishtha, Yama, Apastamba, Gautama, Devala, Sankha-Likhita, Usana, Atri and Saunaka.``

The Vijayanagar kingdom in the south used to follow Yajnavalkya Smriti rather than Manu Smriti. For an example of the differences, how the three main Smritis view widowhood from http://www.hindubooks.org/women_in_the_sacredlaws/the_later_lawbooks/page15.htm

``The earliest Vedic custom for the widow was to marry her husband`s brother. The earliest among the lawgivers agreed with this old order and sanctioned it. The lawgivers that followed him imposed a temporary asceticism for a short period, after which the widows could marry with the permission of the elders of the family.``

``This liberty, allowed to women, seems to have been extinct soon after the compilation of Vasishtha, for Manu and Yajnavalkya, ... lay down life long asceticism for women after the death of their husbands, with a reward of heavenly bliss attached to it``

``In this connection we have to take note of what the Parasara Smriti says about the course of life to be led by a widow. ... `When the husband of a woman has disappeared, is dead, has turned a recluse, is impotent, or has been excommunicated under these five calamities another husband is permitted to women.`It will be seen that Parasara takes a far more sympathetic view of the condition of a widow than Manu ....``

I think if people really want to understand an issue, they need to keep open minds, and rely on research and logic to understand a point. Or at least to debate a point..........Following is a research paper, from the University of Chicago, printed in the American Political Science Review, that everyone should read if they want to understand suicide terrorism. It basically argues the same point I have been arguing, i.e. terrorism is used by terrorist organizations as a means to a poltical agenda, not just a random unco-ordianted act.

The article is on the Cornell University website......http://www.comm.cornell.edu/als481/readings/the%20logic%20of%20suicide%20terrorism.pdf

``......Most suicide terorrism is undertaken as a strategic effort directed toward achieving particular political goals; it is not simply the product of irrational individuals or an expression of fanatical hatreds. The main purpose of suicide terrorism is to use the threat of punishment to coerce a target government to change policy, especially to cause democratic states to withdraw forces from territory terrorists view as their homeland............If suicide terrorism were mainly irrational or even disorganized, we would expect a much different pattern in which either political goals were not articulated...or stated goals varied considerably even within the same conflict.........``

The complete article is a must-read for people willing to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. The authors cover every suicide terrorist attack between 1980-2001 (all 187 of them from the Tamil Tigers to those in Palestine), and do a detailed analysis of each one............

Anil #149: ``2. You have put Al-Qaeda and the USA together to say sameness of agendas of Al-Qaeda and the USA.....``

No, I have not. If you have a question, could I request you to kindly inquire. I am not sure if it is a good idea to jump to conclusions, while communicating through text replies. It may be better if you ask me if I have put their agendas in the same category. This is the courtesty I have always granted you. And I would hope you would grant me the same courtesy..........

A couple of things:

- First of all, I did not place the agenda of Al-Qaeda and the USA in the same bracket. I highlighted, ``They agendas are primarily political. At the same time, they are intertwined with religion. As are the agendas of the USA.``

What this means is that Al-Qaeda has political agenda, that is intertwined with religion. As does the USA. As does Pakistan. As does India, etc. It does not mean that the political agenda of Al-Qaeda, and Pakistan and USA and India etc. are similar. That is not what I implied.

It implies that the agendas of all these entities has politics intertwined with religion. It does not declare India, Pakistan, nor USA to have the same agenda as Al-Qaeda. This was to highlight to you that one you may have left the colors of religion behind. The worlds` environment still has not. And one needs to understand that environment.

``1. Al-Qaeda is a gang of terrorist ..... terror is their only agenda .... ``

Terror is Al-Qaeda`s means to get to an agenda. It is not THE agenda. The agenda itself is political. It wants a political change of sorts, in certain places. The agenda of nearly every terrorist organization is political..........The agenda of IRA is political. The agenda of Basque Separatists is political. The agenda of Mukti Bahani was political. As is the agenda of Tamil Tigers, etc.

It would be far too simplistic to simply assume that the agendas of the above organizations are simply terrorism, and not the usage of terrorism as a means to something. I think this is the point that many Americans fail to understand. And unfortunately, even debate............

``I want to close this discussion with you.``

This is your choice. I tried my best to answer your questions, at your own request. I am not sure it is a good idea to cut off discussions, if one wants to learn about something. One has to keep an open mind. Otherwise, one will only see points of view that favor one`s own point of view. I think this is the problem with states and groups who end up in violent situations. They are unwilling to communicate or consider points of views different from their own.

For example, I recognize State terrorism, as a huge evil (I also recognize individual terrorism, a an evil). You do not recognize State terrorism. I actually find that quite disturbing......Probably as disturbing as your misunderstanding of my statement, above. However, I have tried to keep any open mind and have tried to understand your point of view. Even though, my views on the world`s recognition of State terrorism are as intense as your views on individual terrorism.

In any case, it has been interesting to communicate with you. Perhaps, replies on a website is not the best way to understand and communicate an issue. It leads to a lot of confusions, for which one needs a lot of patience............

Re: # 143

Hindvi:

````...Alongwith it I ponder why the Islam cannot be what I see in Agra or in Istanbul and ask where are the Islamic institutions to do this? Where? ``

This question is not clear to me.``

In this question I meant that at probably the peak of Islamic World, Taj Mahal and Istanbul Mosques etc. were created. To create such fine examples of architecture, the economic, academic, political, and social institutions must have existed to produce such capabilities and resources. I do see wealth created from oil in Arabic hands but do not see other institutions that must have existed then.

Thanks.
Anil

Hindvi

This point needs to be reiterated until it is understood (hopefully!).

If you notice, only non Hindus bring up any specific books to understand Hinduism.

At best these books tell us what Hinduism was at particular points in time (though, in truth, even the best of the books are only partial snapshots in time).

Re: # 142

Hindvi:

Indeed you have written a lot. If I am not wrong, it is not problematic to throw someone out of the Hindu Tent, neither it is for someone leave the Hindu tent. The entry is unclear. I have not read Torah so I cannot comment on it. I read Dr. S. Radhakirshnan`s book on Hinduism where he has analyzed Manu Smriti and quoted the verses out it to say that coming societies can change the law of society, which is what Manu Smriti is.

Even more, important in my view why would someone go back to Manu Smriti to define the laws of knowledge based society? Let Manu Smriti be Rest In Peace. Human thoughts and knowledge have evolved much more. Hinduism in Riga Veda, according Carl Sagan, says challenges ``Is Man the bests Creation of God or Is God the best Imagination of Man``. I subscribe to this thought.

If Islam (I differentiate muslim) really in peaceful co-existence with the ugly side of other beliefs in Jerusalem, then why there is so much turmoil. Sophia Mosque, now as a museum, is an example of peace existence of ugly side of what? I think it is a great example of secular Turkey. I have been there it is indeed beautiful example of secularism. I would not see it as an example of peaceful co-existance of the ugly side of other beliefs.

My entire thought process is at the stage to identify the drivers of change and evolution in Islam. The peaceful change in society comes from co-existence. That is how moderate thoughts evolve too.

Other examples you have given, I will interact with out as I understand them more.

Anil

re: anil # 149

Matter and anti-matter

Good analogy. But the general wisdom here is that since each tends to destroy the other, matter and anti-matter are the same!


Behind this complete screw up lies a unique and uniquely cultivated wisdom. No amount of reasoning will change the minds of people who view the world this way.

Re: # 144

Romair:

Your wrote:

``..... if one wants to understand Al-Qaeda, etc. one cannot simply portray them as an Islamic organization. They agendas are primarily political. At the same time, they are intertwined with religion. As are the agendas of the USA.....``

Let me stop right here....

1. Al-Qaeda is a gang of terrorist ..... terror is their only agenda ....

The Agenda of not only the USA, but the WEST, and the EAST is to defeat the terror. The technique France, and yes Canada included, may want might be different, than Spain, British and the US.

2. You have put Al-Qaeda and the USA together to say sameness of agendas of Al-Qaeda and the USA.

The two agendas are as opposite as matter and anti-matter. There is just no discussion on this is possible, as far as I am concern. I know where I stand, and hope you do too. I only wish : may your God be with you, if you standby what you wrote.

I want to close this discussion with you. Indeed Hindvi has written something very useful for me.

Anil Kapuria

Romair #144

`` 1. I would like to welcome you to the club, of which I consider myself a member also, i.e. a club that refuses to look at religion, as the main cause of all the violence in the world. This is what I have been arguing, from day one: if one wants to understand Al-Qaeda, etc. one cannot simply portray them as an Islamic organization. They agendas are primarily political. At the same time, they are intertwined with religion. As are the agendas of the USA. ``

You have zero credibility to say this. You worked for an organization (Pakistani military) that uses religion ``ISLAM`` as a tool to beat up opponents and stay in power.

But before we proceed, I have to ask you, whether you have truly left behind the, “color of religions.” Do you see, “Islam” when you see Al-Qaeda blow up a subway. Or do you simply see one group targeting another group. If you still see, “Islam, and only Islam,” then I am afraid you have not left behind the colors of religion. You may have left them behind when it comes to non-Muslims. However, you still may be holding them, when it comes to Muslims………..i.e. Muslims kill because Islam tells them to, while the remaining religions kill (even if it is in far greater proportions) because they have just had a bad day at the office………

`` The reason I asked those direct statistical questions was exactly to put the shoe on the other foot, i.e. to highlight how many in the Muslim world, specifically the more disenfranchised, view the world. The fact that you (and Dost-mittar) have been unable to directly answer the question, indicates to me that people are unwilling to look at the, “Muslim” side of the picture, and the Muslim worldview, objectively. And that is one of the problems in solving this whole circle of violence. ``

There are a lot of disenfranchised Black Africans. They do not indulge in violence against outsiders. I am sure Blacks in UK have an unemployment rate as high as Pakistanis. India have a per captia income lower than many Arab states. Indians do not go around blowing up Westerners.

`` The religious movement in the USA has gained phenomenal momentum. According to Pew Research 45% of the Americans now want religion in the State (as opposed to only 33% of the people in India). According to CNN, 42% of the Americans now belong to the Religious Right. This group has overtaken the National Rifle Association and the American Israeli Political Action Committee as the most powerful political pressure group in the country. It exclusively decides the elections within the Republican Party, and has a decisive influence on National elections. ``

I live in USA. There is freedom of religion. I can worship any god I please. The religious right in America wants a ban on abortion, right to school prayer, funding for parochial schools, ban on gay marriages etc. I disagree with all of the above except ban on gay marriage. By any means I do not consider them as extreme positions. Given the moral decay among some Americans I can see where they are coming from. A lot of conservative and traditional Muslims with no affinity for any foreign policy agenda actually support them.

`` 23% of the voters, not only belong to the Religious Right, but are outright Christian Evangelists!! The basic tenet of the Christian Evangelists is that if one does not consider Christ to be one’s saviour, one is going to hell, i.e. according to the most powerful pressure group, in the USA, you and I are hell-bound!! In addition, this group, as a matter of belief, states that the second coming of Christ will only occur, once the Jew have been in-gathered in the Holy Land. This, “Second Coming” is mentioned 318 times in the New Testament. This concept now directly affects US foreign policy, due to the influence of the Evangelists in US domestic policy. Additionally, according to my close friend(s) in the USA military, Christian Evangelism is spreading quickly in the US military. There was an article in Time (or Newsweek), which highlighted its influence in the US military academies.``

What have they changed in US foreign policy ? Do you think USA is moving closer to India because religious right likes to kiss up with a bunch of monkey worshippers.

`` Hence, while you may not realize it sitting in a relatively non-religious California, religion is slowly engulfing the country, of which you are citizen. And due to the huge influence of the USA over the world, its religious forces (unlike those in Pakistan and India) influence the events of the whole world. Had the USA won the Iraq, this group through its neo-con leadership, would have totally dominated US policy, for years to come. The Iraqi resistance has thus done a huge favour to Americans domestic policy. ``

If USA did not face resistance in Iraq they would have invaded Iran and gotten bogged down in a even worse situation in Iran. The American military is too small to conquer the world.


`` I would not have known had I not been exposed to Canada, and had only lived in the USA. The US view of international affairs and human rights is now completely out of synch with the rest of the West. No one living in the USA realizes this. I certainly didn’t when I lived there. Of all the G-8 countries, there are only two that practice and legitimize State terrorism as a valid tool of foreign policy. These are USA and Russia (Russia also practices State terrorism, as a tool of domestic policy, while the USA does not). This is why your reply on State terrorism did not surprise me. You are basically presenting the US view. A view that you have, perhaps, been conditioned to accept through the US govts.’ presentation of the how the world functions, through the US media. ``

None of the other states have the military power to drive Saddam from Kuwait or stop Serbs in Bosnia/Kosovo.

`` This is something you need to understand, when you try to understand the change in societies of the world, today. When I am commenting on terrorism and Iraq etc., I am actually not giving my Muslim view, nor my Pakistani view. I am speaking as a Canadian. ``

Western societies are where they are for certain reasons. You might be a Canadian citizen. Your culture, mind and loyalty is no different from a general in Rawalpindi.

`` Germany, now, has the rights of animals enshrined in its Constitution!! Canada, since the Korean war has lost only around 160 soldiers in combat. And every single one was on a peacekeeping mission!! Canada has an Arm of barely 20,000 soldiers. Its Defence budget is less than 1/40th the size of the USA, even though it has an equivalent border to protect. Since the Korean War, the USA has killed 1 to 2 million people in Vietnam. Between 500,000 to 1 million, indirectly, during the Iraq sanctions. And over 100,000 in the current invasion of Iraq. Not to mention, various others in South America, Sudan, Afghanistan etc. ``

How many people did Saddam kill ?
How many people did Sudanese ruling junta kill ?
How many people did the Taliban kill ?

Assume you live in Canada. I would love to write to Canadian authorities. People like you are equally responsible for brainwashing of the four Pakistani-Brits who allegedly commit the bombings. It is a matter of time some Pakistani-Canadian idiot abuses the open border
and kills someone in the states.

`` How many have Canadians killed, since Korea? Zero!! Or at most less than 10. 1-3 million on one side, and zero on the other. This should indicate that the two countries have diametrically opposing views of international policies, even though both are Western…….. ``

Canadians would not be living in peace and prosperity without access to subsidized drugs developed by American companies, Soviets were running half of Latin America and Saddam was running Kuwait/Saudi Arabia.

`` I think the same situation exists in Europe. Though I have not lived there. The govts. of Germany and Spain changed due to the Iraq War! The French govt. became more popular due to its stance. And the British govt. was massively negatively affected in the election, due to its stance. ``

Blair did win re-election.

Re: # 145

Hindvi:

I do want to thank you for making efforts to answer my questions. I promise to read each answer and would love to get back to you and discuss. I have a busy schedule and would not be able to do full justice right now. Since this board is ending I wanted to write this note and acknowledge.

Romair (#144):

Thanks for your response. I would read it and get back later. However, I do want to say that if you do believe that violence does not have religious color, then you should have understood my point of not calling Al-Qaidaism and Binladinism as Islam. Rather than joining a rank outsider, you should start a very strong movement within the Islam Tent to have other muslims stop calling and associating Binladinism and Al-Qaidaism with Islam.

I will read the rest of the post and promise to get back to you later. Also IRR, EPS, etc. are not statistical they are real numbers, unlike stastitics. I would say also add the set of questions that you asked would lead to different answers when different criteria is applied. Given 6 - billion people living on this Earth and having their own pride and prejudices, that could mean many many answers.

More later.... must go and thank you.


Anil Kapuria

Isn`t it amusing that we have the constant statement that islam has no organized clergy etc. but that the same time ALL the organized centers in islam (Deoband, Al-Azhar, Qom,...) speak the language of hate and disrespect for other peoples and traditions.

Who do you think you are fooling Mr. Hindvi? Where are the liberal centers of islam that issue fatwas speaking of co-existence, mutual respect, spiritual jihad? What are their names and addresses? Could you please give us a list?

The time for such silly propoaganda is now over. The good news is that every mosque in the USA and UK will now have a undercover police officer on permanent watch. Between that the constant strip-searches at borders we may finally get some reform.

Mr Kapuria
i have taken the time to answer your queries in detail not in defense of some thing but because i consider your queries to be well intentioned and you to be genuinely seeking answers to your questions. otherwise I wouldnt have taken so much time since life is short and there are many more interesting things to do than waste time on these useless differences.

regards