London Targeted: Numbers Game

Re: # 134

Romair:

I have been struggling to answer the questions that you have aksed me. I left the color of religions behind many decades ago. Ever since never looked back and immensely enjoyed myself. I cannot see the religious characterization of societal problems. I detest all such characterizations. I do not believe an Arab`s hunger or disease, can be characterizes as Islamic, or a hindu`s homelessness be characterized as Hindutva. A refugee`s home being taken away and resulting pain can be neither be Jewish not Islamic in color. Fascism comes out of such characterizations. I cannot allow myself to be party to any such characterizations.

I am sorry to disappoint you that I cannot live upto the challenge you have thrown at me. However, should you choose to answer my questions, please do so. I am very interested in your answer, mainly as the student of change in society. I do not understand answers to these questions, especially the one about co-existence of Islam with the ugly side of the others. As an outsider, I feel Islamic thoughts and practices would go through reforms that will originate from the within.

You can see from all my interacts on Chowk with which you are familiar or can easily become familiar, one thing that is consistent is that I do not get involved in religious characterization of societal issues. To me religion is limited to mind space, and does not extend beyond into a larger personal space, to fulfill the spiritual needs of the person, whatever they are.

Sorry to disappoint you, I hope others can answer your questions.
Anil Kapuria

dostmittarji:

thank you for your response.

all ``minorities`` respond differently to and in different situations. i have been critical of how some christians have responded to behavior and actions towards them in pakistan. but i also see why some would not want to make waves and be ``in your face``, and some of them are no less admirable for how they conduct themselves within their own community and without.

and i disagree with your conclusion of if the 9/11 attackers had been hindu. i think we should give some of our hindu sisters and brothers a little more credit. and besides, many north americans would not have allowed saris and bindis to disappear from north america. :)

Dost-mittar #131: ``As long as you keep talking about Muslims and I about political Islam, we will keep talking past each other.........Your replies show that you are either somewhat economical with truth, or ignorant ``

I asked some simple questions to Anil. The reason I asked these questions to Anil was because he had, first, asked me, himself, to explain certain things related to Muslims, to him. Which I am trying to do. I did not, ``talk about Muslims.`` He asked me.

You jumped in, half-way (uninvited might I add :-)) to add you age-old Islam teaches Muslims to rape, pillage and burn-routine. You keep saying this, and then say I am misunderstanding you. I have no clue how to convince you otherwise. Nor is it my job to do so. If you want to continue on that line, please be my guest. I really have no interest, nor motivation to convince you, otherwise. Best of luck........

You have answered my questions, to some extent. However, once again, you have added a mile-long justification to each answer. This is why I specifically asked Anil to answer them, statistically. Assuming he is a Martian, and not a Hindu or Indian. You obviously, have not answered them as a Martian.

Cold statistics cut to the facts. They cut through all the spin-doctoring. This is why they scare people, and people feel obliged to bury them in all kinds of subjective justifications. I did not answer your questions, with any kind of subjective justifications, or ifs ands or buts. I answered them straightforwardly, with either, ``I don`t know,`` or roughly one-word answers. Even though most of your questions were quite subjective, based on interpretations and opinions, while mine are all very objective, based on hard cold facts and figures.........

Perhaps you could do the same, for the questions, I asked........They merely require a Yes/No, and/or one word answer........Or, ``I don`t know`` type answers.......let`s leave aside, the motivations for why someone is killing anohter. Let`s just, first, look at who is killing whom.......

ana:

No ana, I am not describing them as cowards and was critical of FV when she said so in her article about Kashmiri Pandits. But I do see the difference in response of Hindu and Muslim minorities, and not only in the subcontinent. Many Hindus gladly put up with the Saudi conditions of staying there on the condition of not practising their religion or blacking all references to Hindu Gods and Godesses in the Indian-run schools` texts in Gulf countries. Hindu faiths survived the long Islamic rule in India mainly because of this ability to roll with the punches. If the 9-11 attackers had been hindus, my guess is that saris and bindis would have disappeared from North America.

dost-mittarji (#131):

But there is another reason, too. Generally speaking, when kitchen gets hot, Hindus leave the kitchen; so they have left or converted to another religion in Bangladesh and Pakistan rather than tough it out; heck, they even fled Kashmir valley even when the military was on their side. Muslims are made of sterner stuff; they not only continue to struggle in the face of adversity, they also like to live with an in-your-face attitude. I am saying this more in admiration than as a criticism. There is no reason why a citizen of a country should not have complete rights to his or her protection because of his assertive identity..

oh no! i am no hindu or muslim, and there are some days when i even question whether i am still a christian, but please tell me that in your admiration for those of sterner stuff, you in fact are not labelling these hindus you have described as cowards. please tell me that you are not reaffirming that kashmiri hindus (pandits) are not refugees but cowards?

are these labels/ comparisons/oppositions really all that simple?

Romair#122

As long as you keep talking about Muslims and I about political Islam, we will keep talking past each other. As my response to Ranjit shows, I do not buy everything that Hindutva people say about Muslims or Islamic rule in India. Let me repeat for the upteenth time that Muslim individuals are no different than others; as in other religions there are good and bad Muslims, honest and dishonest Muslims, kind and cruel Muslims and bigots and tolerant Muslims.

Your replies show that you are either somewhat economical with truth, or ignorant in which case you have not even been looking at the verses and ahadith that have been posted several times at chowk. However, since you have been kind enough to answer my questions, you deserve an answer to your questions. So, here goes:
``1. Members of which relgion, in today`s world, produce the most suicide bombers?``

Most of the suicide bombers in today`s world are Muslims. If you had asked this question ten years ago, the answer would have been Tamil Hindus and Christians. In that answer is implicit the fact that they identified themselves as Tamils and not Hindus. I would compare them to the Palestinians whose suicide missions until recently were based on ethnicity and not religion; the situation has changed somewhat as the recent suicide missions by Palestinians seem to be more religion inspired.

``2. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
3. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
4. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world``

I do not know the statistics. The only significant countries with Hindus are on the subcontinent. I would say that more Muslims are killed in India and more HIndus in Bangladesh. Pakistan`s case is similar to that of Nepal; the number of Hindus in the former and Muslims in the latter are too small to pose any threat.

In case of India, Muslims do bear the brunt of communal killings. There are several reasons for that but the main reason is that pseudo-secular Hindu politicians have not taken effective steps to protect the life and limbs of their Muslim citizens. Shame on them!
But there is another reason, too. Generally speaking, when kitchen gets hot, Hindus leave the kitchen; so they have left or converted to another religion in Bangladesh and Pakistan rather than tough it out; heck, they even fled Kashmir valley even when the military was on their side. Muslims are made of sterner stuff; they not only continue to struggle in the face of adversity, they also like to live with an in-your-face attitude. I am saying this more in admiration than as a criticism. There is no reason why a citizen of a country should not have complete rights to his or her protection because of his assertive identity.

``5. Is there any piece of land occupied by Muslims, against the wishes of its Jewish inhabitants
6. Is there any piece of land occupeid by Muslims, agaisnt the wishes of its Christain inhabitants
7. Is there any piece of land occupied by Muslims, against the wishes of its Hindu inhabitants

8. Is there any piece of land occupied by Jews, against the wishes of its Muslim inhabitants
9. Is there any piece of land occupeid by Christians, agaisnt the wishes of its Muslims inhabitants
10. Is there any piece of land occupied by Hindus, against the wishes of its Muslims inhabitants``

The only place for which this question makes sense is Palestine where a jewish state has occupied Palestinian (not Muslim) lands. Bush is not representing Christians and Sonia Gandhi-Manmohan Singh are not ``occupying`` Kashmir because they are Christian or Sikhs but because they represent a nation-state dealing with a provincial insurgency.

Re: # 127

dost-mittar,

..... ar you satisfied with romair`s blatantly dishonest attempt at ``answering`` your questions ?....... however, it is very possible that, like the rest of the ummah, he actually might believe the lies he tells .............. good luck !!

..... but there is no hope

Anil #120: ``As rule I do not go into statistics, but you were nice enough to no drag State Terrorism I would certainly answer give from the binary answers. Just let me know the period / duration you want to cover and why you want to cover only that period, so that I can give you the binary answers.``

Hard cold statistics are usually the best way to objectively look at issues, and gauge them, without letting subjective religious, social, national and ideological biases get into the way. I refuse to believe that a phenomenally successful businessman and entrpreneur like yourself would disagree. In all the discussions that you and I have had, on business issues, the one thing I have learned from you, is that VC etc. want numbers. Statistical numbers ( ROI, IRR, EPS, FV, PV, AC etc.). They don`t want fuzzy emotinal reasonings or religion, or gender or historical events like Dunkirk etc..........

So, I will not accept as an argument from your side, that statistics and numbers do not tell a clear story. Or at least the clearest story, of any other available method. I am quite convinced that such an argument would go against your well-developed sense in business.

The timeframe I am looking for is the current day. So you can say over the past twenty years, or so. It is the events of this timeframe that is driving current day events. Also, kindly remember, you are speaking as a Martian, with no attachments to anyone, any country, or any religion, on Earth. So just the cold statistics, without worrying about any personal views about State Terrorism, or individual terrorism, etc.

Also, kindly look at the correction I posted in the previous reply........

Romair #119

`` 1. Members of which relgion, in today`s world, produce the most suicide bombers? ``

Sri Lankan Tamils have never invoked Hinduism to launch their suicide bombings.
The only religious factor in the Sri Lankan civil war is the hardline opposition of the Buddhist monks. Even their opposition is based on nationalism rather than religion.

`` 2. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world

3. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
4. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world

5. Is there any piece of land occupied by Muslims, against the wishes of its Jewish inhabitants

6. Is there any piece of land occupeid by Muslims, agaisnt the wishes of its Christain inhabitants
7. Is there any piece of land occupied by Muslims, against the wishes of its Hindu inhabitants

8. Is there any piece of land occupied by Jews, against the wishes of its Muslim inhabitants
9. Is there any piece of land occupeid by Christians, agaisnt the wishes of its Muslims inhabitants
10. Is there any piece of land occupied by Hindus, against the wishes of its Muslims inhabitants ``

It is funny everything you ask is Muslim and some other non-Muslim religion. That should answer your question.

Dost-mittar #122: You need to get out of looking at everything as a Hindu or Indian. Please look at things objectively. As long as you keep being offended, even by simple questions, I am afraid you will always hold biases opinions against Islam and others.........

I havd asked simple straight forward questions. Which have simple straight forward answers. They will only seem loaded to individuals who realize that they do not fit into their worldview. And may force them to consider options, other than the ones they have started believing in. This is why people shy away from answering such questions. Their incorrect views become exposed......

Which may be why you have answered the questions with other questions. Instead of with answers. If one wants to understand these issues, one must let go of one`s religious and nationalistic beliefs and biases, and discuss them objectively.........

However, even though you have not answered my questions, I will still try to answer your questions, objectively and as honestly as I can, without worrying about what my religion may happen to be:

---

Which religion divides the world into two camps, theirs of peace and the rest where a war is to be waged?
Ans.. I don`t know of any such religion. Although, some politico religious leaders do subscribe to this philosophy in Islam. And maybe in other religions also.....

- Which religion tells its adherents that it is their religious duty to wage a violent jihad?
Ans: No religion that I know of

- Which religion tells its people to kill anyone who insults their holy book or their prophet?
Ans. No religion that I know of

- Which religion says that after the enemy is defeated its halal to kill non-combatants, turn them into slaves?
Ans. No religion that I know of

- Which religion says that it is halal to turn women of the defeated people into their sex slaves?
Ans. No religion that I know of

- Adherents of which religion are running training camps teaching people how to kill and blow bombs in other countries?
Ans. Adherents of every religion. The biggest military training camps in the world are in the most advanced countries

- Adherents of which religion are killing/dying for people of other countries simply because they have the same religion?
Ans. Adherents of every religion. Although adherents of Islam would probably be more prominent in this area

- Which religion encourages people to wage war against the country that feeds, nurtures and protects them?
Ans. No religion that I know of



As for Hindus and Muslims in the context of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh:
- In which country has the minority population dwindled?
Ans. At the time of partition, all three countries. After partition, I know it has dwindled in Pakistan. I don`t have statistics for other two countries

- In which country has it increased absolutely and relatively?
Ans. I don`t have the statistics. But I would guess India

- In which country are the people of the minority religion entering from another country illegally and settling down in tens of millions?
Ans. India

- In which country has the minority population reduced from a position of power and commanding heights to one which is almost invisible and inaudible?
Ans. None of the countries you have mentioned

- Which country has its head of state, head of executive, head of army, its most powerful politician and its most successful businessman from a minority?
Ans. India

- In which country has the minority the power to force the government of the day to reverse the decision of its supreme court judges by passing special legislation?
Ans. India and Pakistan (don`t know about Bangladesh)

- In which country are the places of worship of minority multiplying and in which country they are hard to find?
Ans. They can be found in any of the above three countries

- In which country do the minorities not dare to even squeal?
Ans. They can squel in any country

- In which country do the minorities dare to even start riots, kill the members of majority or to drive them away from an area?
Ans. India (nearly all communal riots have been in India)

- Which country has scores of political parties belonging to minority many of whom are quite militant and strident?
Ans. None of the above, as far as I know. All three do not have specific parties for minorities. Though I may be wrong

When you have answered the above questions, I have another list ready.

You need to get out of looking at everything as a Hindu or Indian. Please look at it objectively.

anil. dost-mittar

Romair deserves straightforward answers.

Let`s assume the Martian notices that:

1. Hindus are killing Muslims.
2. Christians are killing Muslims.
3. Jews are killing Muslims.
4. Buddhists are killing Muslims.
5. Confucians/Shintoists are killing Muslims.
6. Animists are killing Muslims.

and,

7. Hindus are occupying lands against the wishes of Muslims.
8. Christians are occupying lands against the wishes of Muslims.
9. Jews are occupying lands against the wishes of Muslims.
10. Buddhists are occupying lands against the wishes of Muslims.
11. Confucians/Shintoists are occupying lands against the wishes of Muslims.
12. Animists are occupying lands against the wishes of Muslims.

Finally,

13. Hindus do not wish Muslims to give up the lands Muslims are occupying.
14. Christians do not wish Muslims to give up the lands Muslims are occupying.
15. Jews do not wish Muslims to give up the lands Muslims are occupying.
16. Buddhists do not wish Muslims to give up the lands Muslims are occupying.
17. Confucians/Shintoists do not wish Muslims to give up the lands Muslims are occupying.
18. Animists do not wish Muslims to give up the lands Muslims are occupying.


Now, let`s enter the mind of this Martian and trace the flow of the Martian`s logic.

Romair #114

`` You are correct. However, the secret defence dept. memo was leaked, one day after the bombing. Such important memos are never leaked. So one would have to assume the leakage was deliberate, i.e. Blair was letting his public know that he was going to listen to them. And letting the terrorists know that he is withdrawing troops, hence they should not target London again.......... ``

The Brits survived Hitler`s blitzkrieg. They wore down the IRA in a 20 year insurgency.
Why would the terrorists change British policy ?

The only British policy that might/should change is allowing Muslim immigrants into UK. May be Britain should stop giving permanent residency to Muslims from Pakistan and certain other countries. I do not see any point in allowing uneducated/rural/conservative Pakistanis into UK. It might happen if someone in the Pakistani community in Britain provided logistical support for the London bombings.

`` Deploying troops in Afghanistan may not be a bad idea. That is the country that actually had Al-Qaeda connections. Pakistan has 170,000 troops on the border there. That is also the country, where 200 billion dollars would have done wonders. Instead of wasting it on an unnecessary war in Iraq. Afghanistan, so far, I believe has gotten only $5 billion or so...........The other big mistake made there was that Taliban was replaced with Northern Alliance (who are equally bad)........``

Why are the Northern Alliance bad ? They are certainly bad apples among them. They clearly represent Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks and Turkmens who are 50% of the population.
They have enough gray matter not to give Osama assylum. For a change they are not clamoring to return to the stone ages.

`` I thought that for a while. But, seeing the events, no longer think so. If the US/UK forces stay in Iraq, Iraq is doomed. Just look at what is happening. 30 people killed, in London type attacks, every day. It is a huge mess. How much worse could it get? ``

15 out of 19 provinces in Iraq are quiet. The four Sunni dominated provinces are in turmoil.
Iraq is not doomed. If Americans trains the Shites the Shites could boss the Sunnis the way Saddam did. But then the Shites might turn around and kick out the Americans.

`` If the US/UK leave, and hand it over to the UN leadership, then things may still go to hell. But they may improve, also. At that point, Muslim countries, like Pakistan, Bangladesh, and more importantly Arab countries like Egypt etc. will be ready to send in their forces as peacekeepers. Pakistan has one of the largest UN contingents active in the world, today.``

No amount of Muslim peacekeepers will prevent the Shite dominance of Iraq. Why would the Shites want peacekeepers when they have the oil money to build their own army. I do not expect 50,000 plus Kurdish militiamen to look kindly to arrival of Pakistani or Arab peacekeepers.

`` I really don`t see how USA/UK can, ``finish the job.`` It is beyond them. I always knew it would be beyond them. There own populations are against it, now. And I don`t even think they have the same interests as the Iraqis. For example, the USA wants to establish military bases there and privatize the oil industry and ensure that Iraq does not get close to Iran. Three things, the Iraqis would always oppose...........``

I doubt Iraqi oil industry will ever be privsatized. Once the memories of Saddam fades Iraq and Iran will be at each other throats competing for influence in a couple of decades. Nothing will change that.

correction #119: Following was a misprint I just noticed:

``2. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
3. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
4. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world``

should be

2. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
3. Are Muslims killing more Jews, or are Jews killing more Muslims in today`s world
4. Are Muslims killing more Christians, or are Christians killing more Muslims in today`s world

Ley de ke faqad tareekh mein tumhe bas itna yaad hai

alamgeer zalim tha, sitamgar tha hindu kush tha

ranjit#121:

Your analysis about Muslims does not bear evidence on the Indian subcontinent.

-Most Muslim rulers did not forcible convert Hindus.
-After the armed conflict was over and the Hindus accepted a secondary status, they were allowed to practice their religion more or less freely, including their caste practices.
- Hindus were allowed to reach positions of prominence under Muslim rule.
-Once the Hindu Rajas accepted Mughal suzereignty, they were left to their own devices and could pretty much do what they wanted.
-No Muslim is trying to convert Hindus in India today or has tried to do so in an active manner; it is actually Christians who are doing so.

Romair#119

You have asked what are called loaded questions. The best way to answer such questions is to ask a series of similar questions. So, here are some questions for you:

- Which religion divides the world into two camps, theirs of peace and the rest where a war is to be waged?
- Which religion tells its adherents that it is their religious duty to wage a violent jihad?
- Which religion tells its people to kill anyone who insults their holy book or their prophet?
- Which religion says that after the enemy is defeated its halal to kill non-combatants, turn them into slaves?
- Which religion says that it is halal to turn women of the defeated people into their sex slaves?
- Adherents of which religion are running training camps teaching people how to kill and blow bombs in other countries?
- Adherents of which religion are killing/dying for people of other countries simply because they have the same religion?
- Which religion encourages people to wage war against the country that feeds, nurtures and protects them?



As for Hindus and Muslims in the context of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh:
- In which country has the minority population dwindled?
- In which country has it increased absolutely and relatively?
- In which country are the people of the minority religion entering from another country illegally and settling down in tens of millions?
- In which country has the minority population reduced from a position of power and commanding heights to one which is almost invisible and inaudible?
- Which country has its head of state, head of executive, head of army, its most powerful politician and its most successful businessman from a minority?
- In which country has the minority the power to force the government of the day to reverse the decision of its supreme court judges by passing special legislation?
- In which country are the places of worship of minority multiplying and in which country they are hard to find?
- In which country do the minorities not dare to even squeal?
- In which country do the minorities dare to even start riots, kill the members of majority or to drive them away from an area?
- Which country has scores of political parties belonging to minority many of whom are quite militant and strident?

When you have answered the above questions, I have another list ready.

Re:anil#117

You are deluding yourself by imagining that Islam is like any other religion and muslims are just like hindus or christians. This is the biggest mistake that we non-muslims make. We do not understand that by its nature, Islam is a militant religion, a proselytizing ideology that does not believe in coexistence. It has only one objective, which is to assimilate either by conversion or elimination. Wherever this ideology encounters non-muslims, its only reaction is to use force or indulge in conflict, with the objective of bringig these non-muslims into the fold. The confrontation may be highly overt as in India or covert as it is in the west, where it is slowly but surely undermining western civilization.

Romair talks about muslims not oppressing hindus or jews. That is sophistry par excellence. How can they suppress minorities, when muslims do not allow minorities to exist at all? Pakistan has been ethnically cleansed of hindus, so of course, muslims do not ``occupy`` hindus. If India kills or expels all Kashmiri muslims, then naturally we will also not ``occupy`` anyone.

Muslims have a very cunning three pronged strategy. Wherever they go, their option 1 is to conquer the whole place, upon which they wipe out minorities and make it an islamic nation. They did that in places like Iran and other muslim nations. When they are unable to wipe out or convert non-muslims, they go for option 2, which is to ask for partitions like they did in India and Yugoslavia. The objective is to take as much land for Islam as is possible. But yet that is not enough. They treat their newly acquired territory as a launch pad and continue the fight to gain more land, expand borders and/or send in infiltratros to wreak havoc and change demographics. If they are unable to accumulate a critical mass, muslims go for option 3, which is to indulge in mindless violence and terrorism. This is what you are seeing in US, Europe and present day India, where muslims are not able to change the demographics.

The underlying thread in all of this is that muslims NEVER give up. Their fight against non-muslims is an eternal war that may wax or wane but will never end. At every frontier between muslims and non-muslims, there is conflict. Muslims will never accept status quo anywhere. For instance, the reality is that in the Indian subcontinent, if muslims sign-off on the status quo with some minor changes, we can have lasting peace. But it will never happen.