London Targeted: Numbers Game

Re: # 119

Romair:

As rule I do not go into statistics, but you were nice enough to no drag State Terrorism I would certainly answer give from the binary answers. Just let me know the period / duration you want to cover and why you want to cover only that period, so that I can give you the binary answers.

I do hope , binary answers and statistics by nature are quite opposite, of each other... one is so precise to be restricted to be one or the other, while the other is all about predicting for a larger group and larger situations from small numbers.

Anil

Anil #117: Imagine you are from Mars and do not have a religion or nationality. And have never watched US or India or any other media. You are viewing the earth for the first time, as a Martian, and collecting statistics. Could you kindly provide simple one word or numerical answers to the following questions. I have the exact statistics, but I think it is important you think over them, yourself.......

1. Members of which relgion, in today`s world, produce the most suicide bombers?

2. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
3. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world
4. Are Muslims killing more Hindus, or are Hindus killing more Muslims in today`s world

5. Is there any piece of land occupied by Muslims, against the wishes of its Jewish inhabitants
6. Is there any piece of land occupeid by Muslims, agaisnt the wishes of its Christain inhabitants
7. Is there any piece of land occupied by Muslims, against the wishes of its Hindu inhabitants

8. Is there any piece of land occupied by Jews, against the wishes of its Muslim inhabitants
9. Is there any piece of land occupeid by Christians, agaisnt the wishes of its Muslims inhabitants
10. Is there any piece of land occupied by Hindus, against the wishes of its Muslims inhabitants

Could I request you to kindly provide one word, and Yes/No answers. Once we have your answers, we can debate them in a later reply, where we can discuss reasonings. But for the time being, I would request you to just look at these as statistics.........

re: temporal # 110

Yes, but why does the engine never get engaged long enough for any real distance to be covered forward? Normally, one would think it was time to take the gaddi to a professional mechanic. Or better, get a more effective contraption.

Re: # 106

Romair:

You indeed have a point regarding the Fatwa at an individual level.

However, don`t you think that Islam is more organized and institutionalized religion, and therefore, where are reformed Islamic institutions?

Can there not be reformed / liberal leaders of mosque or movements to counter Al-Qaidaism and Binladinism?

Can there not be madarasas which teach peaceful part of Islam and not the hate this or hate that and violence under such circumstances are justified, as probably propogated by Al-Qaida, Binladin etc...?

Can there not be Islamic media which opens debates and vigorously brings forward liberal, and cultural thoughts of Islam?

Can there not be the media which even more forcefully opposes the violent as preached and practiced in the name of Islam by Al-Qaida / Binladin?

Even in the darkness of South, to oppose KKK - christianity connection, such institutions were very quickly created and rapidly evolved into regligious counter balance and civil rights movements.

Can there not be Islamic institutions which seek and promote commonality with, rather than exclusion of non-Islamic thoughts, after all there are more humans live while believing in non-Islamic thoughts to run their lives every day?

Above institutions emerge out of evolutionary processes and take their own time and need sustained and committed support from within.

When I visit and look at the marvels of Islamic buildings in Istanbul, and Taj Mahal in Agra I see beauty, I see excellence, I see creativity that I want to enjoy and admire.

When I go to the mosque built on the site of old Vishwanath Temple in Varanasi and see defaced figurines surrounding the mosque`s walls. And then, when I turn around, I see the new Vishwanath Temple humming with followers. I see an uneasy yet peaceful co-existence.

This sight brings two thoughts in my mind.

One is about peaceful co-existence of Hinduism that co-exist with the ugly side of Islam.

Alongwith it I ponder why the Islam cannot be what I see in Agra or in Istanbul and ask where are the Islamic institutions to do this? Where?

The second thought is why are there hardly any examples of peaceful co-existence of Islam with the ugly side of other religious thoughts?

After all Islam is also in the minds of humans who believe in it, for a purpose. Whatever that purpose may be - like each to its own. Accepting peaceful co-existence of ugly side of other religious thoughts is very important part of human reality and existence.

I cannot stop but wonder, does Islam controls the mind, or mind controls Islam? I start to question if there is something that I am missing!!!!

Thank you.

Anil Kapuria

romair mian,

``This is not meant to imply that the Taliban should have been allowed to stay. They should have been kicked out`` ....

.............so you do agree that the US was right in ``kicking out`` one set of rouges - how did you come to that conclusion and why was saddam different ? ........... who decides which bad guys to take out and which ones to leave alone ? .......... are you gong to take on that responsibility?....... if so, then please write to the white house offering your services - i am sure they could use a smart guy like you to help them make these difficut decisions ............

Dost-mittar: Since you have the tendency to misunderstand my comments, as well, following is a clarification :-)

``The other big mistake made there was that Taliban was replaced with Northern Alliance (who are equally bad)........``

This is not meant to imply that the Taliban should have been allowed to stay. They should have been kicked out. It implies that the Taliban should have been replaced by an entity, other than the Northern Alliance (which according to the RAWA and others, is extremely bad, also).

Also to satisfy you (and Anil), even furthur :-)

- I am neither a card-carrying member of the Taliban, nor do I aspire to their ideology
- I am not related to Mullah Umar, even though are names are strikingly similar
- I do not consider the Taliban a just representative of political, social or any other kind of Islam
- While I am vehemently agaisnt, ``guilt by religious association,`` I do acknowledge that Pakistan had a large part in creating the Taliban and screwing up Afghanistan (though it has helped Afghan refugess more than any other country). Hence, while you will not be able to get me to take responsibility for the attacks in Europe. I may be willing to take some responsibility, as a Pakistani, for the Taliban. And hence can initiate a march on University Avenue, in downtown Toronto, if you like
- I denounce the actions of Taliban (and Northern Alliance, for that matter), regardless of any part Bush, Blair, Churchill, Chriac, Chretien, Benazir, Maulana Fazl, Zbegnew Brehzensky, Ghauri, Ghaznavi, Ashoka, and/or Alexander may have played in their creation.............

Dost-mittar #113: ``Good to know this.``

I am truly surprised, that you would think that I ever thought otherwise. If that is the case, then I am afraid much of what I have been arguing may have been misunderstood by you..........

``That decision had been taken two months ago and not linked to last week`s bombings.``

You are correct. However, the secret defence dept. memo was leaked, one day after the bombing. Such important memos are never leaked. So one would have to assume the leakage was deliberate, i.e. Blair was letting his public know that he was going to listen to them. And letting the terrorists know that he is withdrawing troops, hence they should not target London again..........

``But the idea is not to bring them back to Britain but to redeploy them in Afghanistan.``

Deploying troops in Afghanistan may not be a bad idea. That is the country that actually had Al-Qaeda connections. Pakistan has 170,000 troops on the border there. That is also the country, where 200 billion dollars would have done wonders. Instead of wasting it on an unnecessary war in Iraq. Afghanistan, so far, I believe has gotten only $5 billion or so...........The other big mistake made there was that Taliban was replaced with Northern Alliance (who are equally bad)........

``As for cool heads to analyze this, I think that it would be highly irresponsible for Bush-Blair to cut their losses and run from Iraq now.``

I thought that for a while. But, seeing the events, no longer think so. If the US/UK forces stay in Iraq, Iraq is doomed. Just look at what is happening. 30 people killed, in London type attacks, every day. It is a huge mess. How much worse could it get?

If the US/UK leave, and hand it over to the UN leadership, then things may still go to hell. But they may improve, also. At that point, Muslim countries, like Pakistan, Bangladesh, and more importantly Arab countries like Egypt etc. will be ready to send in their forces as peacekeepers. Pakistan has one of the largest UN contingents active in the world, today.

In addition, the bombers may stop targeting police recruits etc. Since they will not view them as collaborators. Also, the support for the insurgents amongst common Iraqis will die down, since their will be no more occupied...........

I really don`t see how USA/UK can, ``finish the job.`` It is beyond them. I always knew it would be beyond them. There own populations are against it, now. And I don`t even think they have the same interests as the Iraqis. For example, the USA wants to establish military bases there and privatize the oil industry and ensure that Iraq does not get close to Iran. Three things, the Iraqis would always oppose...........

Romair#105:

``Not at all. I condemn them with or without Bush.``

Good to know this.

``People need cool heads to analyze this. There is far too much rhetoric and emotionalism, on both sides. What I have suggested as a solution, is already happening. UK is considering withdrawing troops from Iraq. It is good to see some sanity..........``

That decision had been taken two months ago and not linked to last week`s bombings. The idea is to replace them with Iraqi troops. But the idea is not to bring them back to Britain but to redeploy them in Afghanistan.

As for cool heads to analyze this, I think that it would be highly irresponsible for Bush-Blair to cut their losses and run from Iraq now. They have destroyed the state of Iraq and has plunged it into a civil war. It is their moral responsiblility to leave it only after it has a stable government of a united country. Withdrawal at this stage might serve the purpose of those who want to cut a strong Arab state into three squabbling countries, but it does not serve the people of Iraq or even Arabs.

incredible -- nonsense like this gets published on chowk -- well, after all, they have to , for the baba`s sake

hamidm:

am in TO

waiting for the other shoe to fall:)

but not with the other two in attendance!...cannot hack them!...if you insist that will be your solitary pilgrimage....jazakalllah!

bring your lovely and let`s make it a foursome

kaal #109:

spinning?

is this all you can come up with?

sad!

in internal combustion engines....in autos...there is fly wheel... behind the transmission box...it rotates...visualise it in a circular fashion...am trying to be as circumambulating as you are;)...then there is the gear box...gear for you...on the steering wheel or the floor...when you rev the engine...depending on... if you have engaged it in the forward or reverse the automobile would go in THAT direction!

now spinning!

heard of the clutch?

i can be as foggy or as clear as you

your choice;)

There is a serious need to consider why every push forward leads to the same old spinning of wheels without any forward movement.

temporal,

.... i am a little surprised by your rather morbid fascination with islam :).... one of these das we will talk about it ..

Anil #96: ````I think you are misreading Blair statement. The Brits have the grits to ensure, a come back even after Dunkirk.``

I am surprised you are comparing this to Dunkirk. It is extremely dangerous to compare this to Dunkirk. Pretty soon, someone will compare this to Karbala. And then we can continue fighting, forever. Why is everyone bent upon raising the ante? Why aren`t their more people who want to reduce the ante, like me.............

I don`t think I am misreading the statement, at all. It is a pretty straightforward statement. I had mentioned yesterday that the British would reduce their forces in Iraq. And today they have announced that they are considering reducing them, by a huge margin. If this was Dunkirk, they would have tripled their forces. Which they can easily do, if they want to. But they, wisely, don`t want to.........

It is extremely counter-productive to show, ``grit`` (in the sense that you are suggesting) on issues like this. That would be harmful to everyone. One should show grit when someone challenges one`s internal affairs. Or in situations like Dunkirk. If the terrorists had said that they want everyone in UK to stop eating pork, it would make sense to show grit.

However, this is about something that the UK population was itself against, to begin with. It never wanted to get involved in it. That is how this differs from Dunkirk.

``God forbid, if the bombers are from the British-Pakistani group. They would ensure that the mosques, and madrasas there are purged and cleaned as part of this cancer treatment to the extent that is not possible in the U.S``

This is the thing that could be done, within the UK. If this is actually a problem, it should have been done a long time ago. If it is not a problem, then doing so just out of emotion is no different than me attacking a mandir in Karachi, out of anger for Babri Mosque.

One should use common sense and a cool head, and not emotion. The UK has a lot of experieince in dealing with the IRA. They know, far better, than the USA, what works and what does not. As I keep saying, this is why the UK population, itself, was against going into Iraq. They knew it would reach their streets, The London mayor said it, himself.........

Being, ``resolute`` should not always mean more violence. I can never understand ideas, that push violence as the only solution. Must the UK now bomb Iraq furthur. Is London going to be any safer, because of that?

I have seen exploding bombs up close. I know what kind of damage they can do. Rest assured, more violence, resolute or otherwise, is not the answer........And I can make a bet that the UK leadership will show a lot of sanity, in this......

Anil #96: ``Why allow such qualifiers, and acts being performed for ISLAM or in the name of ISLAM. Its believers should not permit it, and expel those who perpetrate such act while within the tent.``

I am still not sure what you would like me to do.

People perform varoius acts, on their own. If today I walk up to your office, and shoot you, and say I am doing this in the name of Islam, what would any other Muslim have to do with it. If tomorrow, a Hindu comes and shoots me, and says it is in the name of Hinduism, what would that have to do with you.

The best you could do is say that it is not Hinduism. Which is what I have said, also. What else should I do? Kindly highlight in detail. I don`t have the power to purge someone from Islam. Islam does not have a Pope or Brahmins who have that authority. The concept of fatwa is actually not legitimate in Islam. No one can pass a fatwa. Although many people do.

However, if it makes anyone feel better, ``I hereby pass a fatwa that Bin Laden is not a Muslim.`` I don`t know what legal authority it will hold, however.......

Dost-mittar #97: ``bringing Bush into this now seems like justifying such attacks without saying so.``

Not at all. I condemn them with or without Bush. I am truly suprised you think, otherwise. I thought that was a given..........I don`t see how anyone could justify them......

I have very close relatives who live in London. One of my siblings called from there early morning, to tell me he was alright. That is how I found out about the attacks. So my close family members use the subway in London, regularly.........

I also have very close family members who live in Pakistan. Which has been a major target of Al-Qaeda. My best friend is flying combat missions in Waziristan. We are like brothers. I wouldn`t be surprised if one day I received a phone call, that he has been shot down or killed.

So, rest assured, nothing is being justified. If someone thinks that way, then I am afraid they are missing my whole point.......The last thing I want is for my sibling(s) to my friends get blown up in London, or shot down in Waziristan. My aim is always to analyze something and provide reasonings and solutions to it. The attachment of the attacks and Iraq is obvious and was made by most people in London, themselves......

People need cool heads to analyze this. There is far too much rhetoric and emotionalism, on both sides. What I have suggested as a solution, is already happening. UK is considering withdrawing troops from Iraq. It is good to see some sanity..........