London Targeted: Numbers Game

Bee Jay #48: ``if the state is legitimate (i.e., a democracy – with checks and balances) then its policies reflect the will of its population, so “state terrorism” is an oxymoron for those countries!``

I am not talking about State terrorism as in terrorism against one`s own country. I am talking about State Terrorism, by a state, against people of other countries. This is a well-accepted concept in all debates.

Terrorism can never be used to justify more terrorism. However, I feel too many people do that. Both forms of terrrorism need to be acknowledged. As long as people only acknwledge only one side, I am afraid they are only adding to the problem, and not solving it.........

I think the arguments I have been making, for a long time, based on violence spreading, and not reducing, due to the Iraq invasion, are now starting to resonate even in the USA. Public opinion is about to reach a tipping point in the USA. Once opinion reaches 66%, it starts having a very direct affect on election results......

The reason I am associating this attack with Iraq, is because the attackers, themselves, assocaited it with Iraq. I think UK (and USA) have harmed their efforts against terrorism, by invading Iraq. Which is why I continue to argue that the UK should not look at this attack as an Islam/West issue, nor make it an ego issue. It should get out of Iraq, thereby making itself safer.............

ana 54:

you are right…my mistake!

(long post)

#48 by BeeJay:

is the intended target, though, and is it even here?

spot on!...laikin bhai does it matter?...mad men and poets are known to make sounds!

don’t buy this stuff about AIDS that you make…

am quoting the do-gooders who cite this to motivate public action in africa

Leaving aside the sentiment and good intentions contained in the poem, I must state that as a reader I find its flow to be a little awkward – some words flow smoothly but still feel like sand particles whereas others tend to get stuck in my mouth like concrete chips.

…will try harder…already have written to the editor to make three changes…as ana pointed out 1: numbers, 2: as you mentioned ‘ham’ …it thymes better in the scheme ( tho’ have heard it with a bang too;)) and 3: delete # 6 which is a repetitive stanza…the idea was already covered in # 2….i belong to the school where less is more…

… Also, putting in astrixes and footnotes in a poem kind of gives it the look and feel of an article – at least the way I feel!

...good point…i trust today’s reader to get the point about yesterday’s jubilation and today’s mourning…but the footnotes are for the future…in a few months or years the reader’s would find the jubilation footnote helpful…

also nanijaan feels i should restrain my use of italics...she is right...i tend to over-do them ...sometimes they work sometimes they don`t...will watch out for them...there!

mercifully, my poems do not come with prefaces or epilogues...i feel the poem should (mostly) stand (or fall) on its own…

one last thing...the idea was to express my views (no matter how separate, disagreeing and disparage we are…we are oneus versus them thing...

re: andy, brian, charlie… spot on:)

rgds

t

hamidm and miriam:

there are no easy answers to fix the deliberate leak and abuse that has been going on since before our birth…..talk of heritage!…but first a small step at a time…

* i will denounce this act of unmitigated violence against civilians…this time again with the same fervour i have used previous times when states not individuals launched their travesty
* i will speak for my peaceful islam every chance i get
* i will speak out against those jaahil usurpers who have hijacked my religion for their nefarious objectives
* i will seek out and join those who share my outlook

it is a numbers game…i/we have to make a beginning somewhere

romair mian,

.......... if you go back and look at your posts you will see that you have wasted hundreds of words to say the same thing over and over again : `` the attacks in london are the result of the war in iraq``............. so there is the BUT ...... `` it is a crime against humanity, BUT the bombers were a little upset over this iraqi thing ``.....

........... nonsense !...... do you really belivee that if there was no war in iraq, al-aqeda and its sympathizers would put away their guns and join the peace corp and sit around the fire singing kum ba ya ?............... not a chance......... they would find some other cause - chechnya, kashmir, timor, mindanao, pakistani girls without head scarves, cable tv, pork chops, ...............

..................... vereesh and other horrible hindoos are right on this account: for centuries the muslims have been fed the nonsense about dar-ul-islam and the true believers, and they will not quit making trouble for ``dar-ul-harb`` and the kafirs until they have been thoroughly defeated on the battlefield and their insidious ideology has been discredited in the eyes of its followers ........... fortunately, given the tremendous economic and technological advantage, that shouldn`t be too difficult as long as the civilized world stays the course and is not be pressured into leaving places like iraq ............ as bush says, `` we must fight them there, so that we don`t have to fight them here``

ps for beejay:

wrong:

one last thing...the idea was to express my views (no matter how separate, disagreeing and disparage we are…we are oneus versus them thing...

corrected:

one last thing...the idea was to express my views (no matter how separate, disagreeing and disparage we are)…we are one ... we are not of the us versus them crowd...that despicable war-cry befits george and his bearded twin osama only...

Re: # 67

t,

amen !............. we would be okay except for the fact that the ``jaahil usurpers`` have a much much larger amen corner among the believers ..........

Re:

temporal #67

{{
* i will speak for my peaceful islam every chance i get

* i will speak out against those jaahil usurpers who have hijacked my religion for their nefarious objectives
}}

and remarks by others in a similar vein:

In the midst of all these pious protestations and fulminations against “jaahil usurpers who have hijacked my religion” and the like, it makes sense to ask if this way of describing events gives the best insight.

Could it be, instead, that it is the religion (or raw material contained in the scriptures and traditions of the religion) that has hijacked the minds of perfectly normal human beings?

Definitely worth pondering over.

A long but excellent article by Theodore Dalrymple:

When Islam Breaks Down

``Islam in the modern world is weak and brittle, not strong: that accounts for its so frequent shrillness. ... To be sure, fundamentalist Islam will be very dangerous for some time to come, and all of us, after all, live only in the short term; but ultimately the fate of the Church of England awaits it. Its melancholy, withdrawing roar may well (unlike that of the Church of England) be not just long but bloody, but withdraw it will. The fanatics and the bombers do not represent a resurgence of unreformed, fundamentalist Islam, but its death rattle.``

hamidm mina #70: ```` the attacks in london are the result of the war in iraq``............. so there is the BUT ......``

As I said, please stop putting words in my mouth (again). I said, ``I don`t put any, ``buts`` around this. I think it is a horrible crime against humanity. End of story.``

Now, you have come up with a new slogan, ``so there is a BUT.`` There is not but, in any form or way. And I never said there was one. Whcih part of this can you not comprehend?

As for the attacks on london: what I said was that the people carrying them out have, themselves, attached this specific attack to the war on Iraq. As did a warning by the mayor of london, himself. This does not justify the attacks. It just analyzes them. If the attackers had said that they attacked London to save the rain forests in the Amazon, I would be talking about the rain forests.......If he said, it was to save the whales, I would be talking about whales.Which part of this can you not comprehend?

If the attacker, himself, says his attack is related to Iraq. Then obviously the relationship has to be considered.........

``do you really belivee that if there was no war in iraq, al-aqeda and its sympathizers would put away their guns and join the peace corp and sit around the fire singing kum ba ya ?............... ``

No I don`t think they would stop and join the peace corps. And they should be fought, wherever they are. I am in full support of fighting them in Pakistan, for example. However, I am not in support of fighting them in places where they aren`t (or weren`t, until the USA invaded). Like Iraq.

``as bush says, `` we must fight them there, so that we don`t have to fight them here``

Apparently, they have reached, ``here.`` Which is what I was warning. Luckily Bush is considered an idiot in England and in the rest of the world. The British people, themselves, don`t agree with him. And Canadians literally hate his guts. Every single European country wanted Kerry to win...........

Even 60% of the public opinion in the USA agrees with me now, also. I hope when the tipping point comes, they question you, first, on why you and Bush got them into this mess....Though, I have a feeling, by that time, you will have shifted with wind and again will have started opposing the Evangelicals......

You keep trying to attack others, but never take any responsibility yourself. You, and other flag wavers should take some responsibility for the deaths in Lodon, also......It is about time, people started putting individuals like yourself on the defensive. Which is why I have written so many long posts. I think the USA public is about to do that soon, also........

71 by AlephNull :


..you write and ask it makes sense to ask if this way of describing events gives the best insight. …Could it be, instead, that it is the religion (or raw material contained in the scriptures and traditions of the religion) that has hijacked the minds of perfectly normal human beings?


you are a thoughtful and considerate fellow…but over the years reading your interacts i know we see things through different prisms…nothing wrong…in diversity also there is unity!

….who is a normal human being...george? putin? osama? omar? modi? hitler? sharon? blair? saddam? fahd? allahrakha? raampyair? you? me?

…without delving into hermeneutics for me qur’an is a flashlight showing a path to the simple believers of that era…if…if the followers accept to follow that path…then they travel on it...travel entails going beyond the landscape shown by the flashlight…

…i yearn and take a natural progression shown to the jaahil…ok, strong word…simple arabs of that times …a path that lead to being a better insaan then they were at that time…what would have been an evolutionary journey over the past 1500 years has been turned into a regressionary one over the past few hundred years…

am acknowledging and willing to face more than my share…as a believer of the book my fellow believers do not read the book…therefore by default they have left the field vacant for the jaahil and manipulative mullahs to seize and take over… to undo the damage of hundreds of years would take years…

…i consider 9/11 and its aftermath a blessing in disguise…i know we differ…but it is alright…there are many paths that lead to the stream…and the righteous…pls. note the righteous…muslims or non muslims alike have their rewards…

peace

t

ps: #72: :)...i told you we differ!...islam will survive despite the current practioners!

After having observed Friday prayers up front as often as I can, the more diverse, the better, I have come to the conclusion that it is all about the 1-rupee biryani and true believers.

In other words, the true believer will repeat what the person supplying the 1-rupee biryani says.

(For those who do not understand, biryani free or for a nominal 1-rupee on ``eat and litter as much as you can`` basis is what is often made available at Friday prayers in the poorer area mosques . . .must say it is often very tasty, but buffalo meat does need all thoise heavy spices and oils to kill the deep taste)

Forget it Romair, you and your Ummah don`t have a leg to stand on.

Not because you are bombing others, that is part of civilisation.

Because after bombing and killing, you expect mercy, like weaklings. ``We are worried about backlash``. You should have stood up and said that in your own mosque, your own streets, your own parliaments, your own gatherings.

ROMAIR, WHY ARE YOU CRYING NOW?

Romair#60, 57:

You need to first understand the difference between the normative and the value-ative; the first merely describes facts as one sees them and the latter is one’s opinion. I Do Not believe in guilt-through-association and do not practice it in my personal life. But it would be extremely naïve to believe that such association does not exist, either here or back in our homelands. As a follower of deen-e-fitrat, you should be able to appreciate this. It is this fact which is likely to lead the passport holder with the name hamidm to greater scrutiny than one with the name Umair Raja even though the former is less of a Muslim than the latter.

Secondly, I did not blame you for London attacks. This is as ludicrous as your statement that I suggested that you are a murderer or a rapist; you are simply indulging in extreme distortions. But I do think that you or hamidm are more likely to be viewed with suspicion because of such attacks than me. And therefore, it is in your interest to speak up against such attacks to show that Muslims are not a monolith, as you and I know that they are not.

With respect to Gujarat, I did exactly what I am asking you to do, namely, speak up against it without any ifs and buts. I would have done it even more loudly if I were living in Bangladesh or Pakistan because it would have been both the right thing to do as well as in my best interests.

“If you would like to organize a march on this, as a fellow Canadian, I would be more than happy to pass on my email to you. And we can organize it together......I can come to Ottowa, if you prefer...Or you could come south......”

This is the kind of response I was looking from you. I do not know the first thing about organizing political protests and my participation will perhaps be considered evidence of anti-muslim prejudice. But if there were a protest march against the Gujarat killings, I would have joined it and that would have been my first protest after my sit-ins against the Vietnam War in the 60s.

Dost-mittar #76: It is good to see that you have clarified yourself........Following are my responses:

``I Do Not believe in guilt-through-association and do not practice it in my personal life. But it would be extremely naïve to believe that such association does not exist, either here or back in our homelands.``

Yes, it definitely does exist. And one should fight it. Not enable it. Nor encourage it. The best way to fight it, is to stand up against those who practice it.........Not to give into them, by being fearful of them........

``But I do think that you or hamidm are more likely to be viewed with suspicion because of such attacks than me.``

Yes, this is true, and unfortunate. But I have gotten used to it. It comes with the territory. And I am a strong believer in the fact that one should hold strongly to ones principles. And not comprimise them. However, the solution to this is not to be forced into accepting any kind of responsibility for it. The solution is to try to present a solution to it...........

``With respect to Gujarat, I did exactly what I am asking you to do, namely, speak up against it without any ifs and buts.``

Which is exactly what I have done. However, I never encouraged you to start marching in the street, just because you are a Hindu. If tomorrow some Muslim in Pakistan kills ten Hindus, I will take responsibilty for it. But if some Arab Muslim kills a Japanese person, I think my responsibility is the same as yours or anyone else`s.............

``I would have done it even more loudly if I were living in Bangladesh or Pakistan because it would have been both the right thing to do as well as in my best interests.``

I do not agree with this. If you were living in Pakistan, or Bangladesh, you would have had nothing to do with it. That would be guilt by religious association. One should not march out of fear. One should march out of conviction.........In such a situation, specifically in Pakistan, it would be the responsibility of people like me to ensure, no one harmed you, as a Hindu, through guilt by association.............

``This is the kind of response I was looking from you. I do not know the first thing about organizing political protests and my participation will perhaps be considered evidence of anti-muslim prejudice.``

I have always had this kind of response. And will continue to do so. I am more than happy marching in any kind of such event. God knows, I write about everything like that, enough on this site. My critiques are religiously and nationally agnostic.........

However, I will not march in such an event, specifically because I am a Muslim. I will march in it, because I am a human being. Similarly, I will not march in it because someone threatens me, or because I fear someone, or if someone tries to associate me with something just because of my religion. I will do so out of my own conviction, as a citizen of a country......That was the point I am trying to get across to you.........

Romair#77:

``And one should fight it. Not enable it. Nor encourage it.``

Nothing wrong in doing so and following my suggestion. You don`t want to be like the driver of the volkswagon in the right lane who refused to swerve upon seeing a truck coming in the same lane from the opposite direction. He was right. Dead Right!

Romair#78:

Since you are prone to misread/misinterpret my posts, please don`t think that I am predicting your death. It`s just an expression. :-)

......the amen corner and the peanut gallery


.......... romair mian exemplifies the ummah`s dilemma ...... like a billion other lost souls, he cannot make up his mind whether he is a shameless apologist and part of al-qaeda`s amen corner, or a shameless voyeur and part of the peanut gallery ?

.........but in this war against terror one cannot afford to be part of the peanut gallery - as they say nowdays, ``you are either with us or aginst us``........... the problem with most of the ummah is that even though their head tells them to part ways with the bombers, suiciders and dead-enders, their soul, which has been been mortgaged to a vengeful and arrogant god, keeps them from making the right choices ............ it is not just the biryani - it is the the incessant call of the muezzin and the cheap chinese azan clocks that fogs their minds five times a day and confuses them .........

.............as alephnull, who may have many other trishuls to grind, but is right on this account, correctly points out , ``it is the religion that has hijacked the minds of perfectly normal human beings `` ................

......... a ban on those chinese clocks would be a good start in the right direction ........... we need a respite .......