London Targeted: Numbers Game

Good to see your poetry here. I like this a lot:

and today`s mourning*
in the wake of
yesterday`s jubilation*
sad number`s game

Very well put.

Peace,

J

Temporal bhai...i hope you can rustle up accomodation for your fellow countrymen who are gonna be thrown out of the Uk very soon.Unfortunate, but they will be fallout victims of the heinous act committed by the terrorists.Just as it happened in the US after 9/11.I saw , on tv, the G8 plus five leaders standing in solidarity with Blair.And, our very own Manmohan was there standing next to Putin.Manmohanji , i bet, is gonna be talking about Ayodhya with Bush and the others.Watch and see.Or, even better, claim some relation in India , get a visa and get outta there as fast as you can.I try!!.

got home few minutes back...took me a long time today...and may those bastards who did this roast in hell. I am tired and if I see them bombers and planners in front me I will do the turds in....slowly roasting them like little suckling pigs...and hear them squeel with great glee

t…thank you for writing this. am here…reading…listening…while the “fragmenting” continues. another day and another tale? a deadly cocktail of dogma and madness? business as usual? religion of peace? and i suppose if i’m a really good girl, that and a few dollars will buy me a cup of latte.

and when all is said and done i would like to believe jack (as in kerouac):

Wild men
Who kill
Have Karmas
Of ill

rgds
miriam

Jawahara:

kahaan ghayab ho?

peace?

hmmmm…am modest…will settle for pursuit of peace…

cayenne:

yaar bhai bol kay you are tying my hands...suffice it to say that if another human being is distraught i would help first ask questions later...

t

(long post)

miriam:

jack of the beat generation?...what has he got to do with this?...no don’t answer;)...khair

as i told abskii on UP earlier: ‘every person in his right mind should condemn these acts of violence directed against innocent civilians ….there is no justification for such acts, not in my qur`an, not in my culture’

and as i have asked repeatedly those who profess piety and righteous indignation…show me where in the qur’an it condones suicide bombing…in vain!...just as hamid mir, pakistani tv host and journalist who last interviewed mr…..notice mr.?....osama bin laden and his deputy the same question… and both took hours to answer but were unable to offer a simple convincing quote from the qur’an supporting or even condoning suicide attacks…for yara it is not there!

…these wannabee guardians of my/our islam convince the world they represent the 1.5 billion….that is 1,5000,000,000 billion muslims…not so…not so…they merely play into the hands of neoconzix

laikin yara who listens to you or me?...

…we are the voice in the wilderness…talking peace…yelling this is not our islam…but i also recognize that we are yelling in the emptiness of the desert…the faith we are inadvertently born into hijacked by a jaahil…but vociferous and unrelenting bunch of vested regressive group…they fight their violent fights over the shoulders of the silent majority…

...in the end it is our shoulder they use
…in the end it is our fight
….in the end kiddo, it is you and me …and millions like us…do we have a choice?....what are our options?...how to turn the tide of 1500 years of regression…

weighty questions that ours and subsequent generations of muslims have to answer…we have no choice…either the silent majority stands up and reclaims…or perish!

…in the end we have to stand and be counted or acquiesce with the regressionary forces and perish…

…the mirror can be cruel…where do we stand?

lve

t

quote ‘every person in his right mind should condemn these acts of violence directed against innocent civilians ….there is no justification for such acts, not in my qur`an, not in my culture’ end quote...plus the rest of ur post.

temporal...i cudnt have said it better...it makes me cry and worried sick to see before my eyes a world full of hate and fear bred by believers of my own faith...this is not the world i want to raise my baby in but i dont have much choice do i?

may be my parents taught me a different Quran...a different islam?

Where do you stand, Temporal?

Let`s see, how about organising a ``Muslims at Toronto March against Terror``? (MATMAT).

Or putting your open Letter to the Editor to the media in Toronto on the subject and getting people to sign it?

Yes, stand up and be counted. Today is Friday, right, why not head for your neighbourhood mosque and be counted, and count others, and publish details?

Yes, Temporal, and all the rest over here and our friends who are in the forefront again, please stand up and be counted, or forever keep your peace.

There is too much whining, too little corrective, on the part of the silent majority. Spot on.

+++

From The Sun, in UK:-

By BRIAN FLYNN
and JOHN KAY

THE bomb blitz is feared to be the work of a new breed of terrorists — young, well-educated British Asians loyal to Osama bin Laden.

Last night a terror cell based in the Midlands emerged as suspects behind the outrage.

They are Muslim extremists — yet the bombs aimed to deal out death and injury indiscriminately to people of ALL faiths.

The gang — mostly ex-students in their 20s — have had their homes watched for months, but there has not been enough evidence to arrest them.

Intelligence agents have monitored calls between members and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

A US security source said: “The suspected cell is not the only one being looked at but is one of the most serious lines of inquiry. The suspects are British — disaffected graduates who graduated in the UK, then went to Islamic schools in Pakistan, near the Afghan border.”

Security services tried to locate the gang yesterday but it is understood not all could be found.

Terror expert Professor Michael Clarke, of King’s College London, said planting a string of bombs would require a cell of at least 18 to 20 people.

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said at the G8 summit last night the bombings had “the hallmarks of an al-Qaeda-related attack”.

NO warnings were given, and the TIMING came as massive security was concentrated on the G8 summit, with 1,500 Scotland Yard cops drafted to Edinburgh. And public transport was the ultra-soft TARGET — just as when al-Qaeda attacked Madrid last year.

A European wing of the evil empire claimed repsonsibility for the attack in a sick boast on the internet.

The group — calling itself the Secret Organization Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organization in Europe — called the bombers “heroic” and demanded troops be withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan.

It ranted: “We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahidin exerted strenuous efforts over a long period to ensure success of the raid.

“He who warns is excused.”

The website is believed to be run by a bin Laden associate based in London, with links to Abu Dhabi.

Radical Muslim cleric Sheik Omar Bakri issued a chilling warning three months ago that a European wing of al-Qaeda was preparing to attack London.

The sheik told a Portugese magazine: “One very well organised group in London has a great appeal for young Muslims. I know that they are ready to launch a big operation. It is inevitable.”

He added: “We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents, only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, no sanctity.”

The blitz came after the terror threat level in the capital had been downgraded. There are three levels set by MI5 and MI6 based on intelligence at home and abroad.

Level One is “imminent”. Level Two is “severe/general” — which London had been under since 9/11 attacks and during the General Election.

But since the election the threat was downgraded to Level Three — “significant/serious”.


+++

An eye for and Eye,
A tooth for a tooth.
If you break by kiosk
I will break your booth.

My God is God
And your is just the reverse.
Our children are God`s gift
Your`s are all perverse.

I am lost O God
Why was I born at this time?
Within this maddening crowd
I am looking for a Line.

Nichiro

An eye for and Eye,
A tooth for a tooth.
If you break by kiosk
I will break your booth.

My God is God
And your is just the reverse.
Our children are God`s gift
Your`s are all perverse.

I am lost O God
Why was I born at this time?
Within this maddening crowd
I am looking for a Line.

Nichiro

If u want to filter out...why do you ask us to interact??

Looks like muslims all over the world have totally lost their minds and are hell bent on self-destruction. First they attack Ayodhya, now they attack London killing people indiscriminately. What do they hope to accomplish by doing this? Clearly they cannot kill all non-muslims. It cannot be for the glory of Islam, because no sane person will convert to a murderous religion like this anymore. It cannot be for any political gain from India or UK because it is going to make people even more unwilling to negotiate on any matter, whether it is Kashmir or Iraq.

Thanks to these kind of stupid actions, muslims are rapidly becoming worse than lepers in this world. They had already become lepers in the US, now it is going to happen in Europe too. As this downward spiral continues, a time will come when non-muslims will stop viewing muslims as human beings anymore resuling in catastrophic consequences for muslims. The jewish holocaust will look like a picnic in contrast.

Ranjit the acts of terrorism are for political purposes. These bloodies are only using the name of Islam as a cover. This act of thier`s will bring more troubles and hatred for common muslims.

Temporal....I know you are among the many voices in the wilderness, but , dealing with the here and now, should make you and many of your countrymen concerned for the plight of paks in Britain.The british are nasty people.Americans might talk tough, but they`re softies.This time , i think , the game was misplayed.If i was pak, and in the UK, i`d leave as fast as my hairy legs can take me.

...send her victorious (to Australia)
happy and glorious (in Sydney Harbor)
long may she reign (over terrorized people)
God save the queen!

..... the fix


.......... i know we all think that things have never been worse and the world is coming to an end, but if you step back and look at mankind`s history since cain killed abel, things have been pretty much the same ........ i honestly believe that man was pre-programmed to self destruct - it is simply a matter of time ...........

....... have we ever had a time in history when there was no war, no killing, no mayhem ?......... think about it - you could have been living in baghdad when the mongols razed it to the ground, or in mecca when mohammad captured it, or new delhi when nadir shah or tamerlane ransacked it, or jerusalem when the crusaders came through or dacca when the pakistani army ran amok ............ heck, you could have been living in virginia during the civil war in which almost a million americans were killed.......... or you could have been a jew living in nazi germany or a tutsi living in rawanda or a cambodian living under pol pot ...........

........... things are bad, but they have never been any better ......... nothing a few stiff martinis cannot fix ........

Reminds me of that episode in Spider Man movie. The juvenile spider-man let`s a criminal go who later kills his uncle.

When terrorists attacked and killed other lesser people, like Indians or afgans - US, UK and the west just sat there watching and gigling and pontificating. They took no actions - in fact, they actively hindered any action that the victim countries may have taken to crush the terror .... and in some cases, they actually sheltered the terrorists.

Now the same terrorists have paid them in the same coin. The immortal line in the movie - ``with great power comes great responsibilty``. - the great powers of the west had neglected their responsibilities. And the results are disastrous for people all around.

There is still time. The great powers of the west should have to wake up and take charge. Islamic terrorism and their sponsors have to be crushed. The time is now.

One possible theory ..........

Radical leader says West may have `engineered` bomb blasts
08/07/2005 - 10:46:46
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=63638044&p=63638346

A senior leader from a coalition of radical Islamic political parties today said the attacks in London might have been orchestrated by the West as a strategy to turn public opinion against Muslims, a claim sure to produce outrage around the globe.

“This is very tragic,” said Liaqat Baluch, a prominent politician from the six-party Islamic coalition that comprises the main opposition to President Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

“But this could also be a strategy by Europe and America to line up against Muslims. They are directly saying Muslim groups or al-Qaida are behind these bombings. Then how can it be ruled out that these are not engineered blasts?” he said.

When asked again if he was actually charging the British or American governmnts of having a hand in the bombings, Baluch said: “This can not be ruled out. All countries do this to project their people as victims.”

Baluch demanded an “impartial investigation”.

The Islamic MP’s comments came a day after Musharraf called for a joint fight against terrorism following the London attack, which he vehemently condemned. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed today refused to comment on Baluch’s remark. A British Embassy spokesman was not immediately available for comment.

Most Pakistanis reacted with horror to the news. Many have relatives in London, and the two nations remain historically linked nearly 60 years after the British quit the region upon the partition of the subcontinent into Pakistan and India.

Newspapers in Pakistan today splashed news of the London bombings as their top headlines.

“Apocalypse London” was the front page headline of The News, the nation’s largest English-language daily. The lead editorial in the paper read: “Al-Qaida strikes in London’s heart”.

The newspaper condemned the bombings and said: “The London attack has brought the war home that Britain has so far been fighting in far off Iraq.”

Baluch is the deputy head of Jamaat-e-Islami, the main group in a six-party coalition of Islamic political parties called Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, or United Action Forum. The coalition has the second largest block in Pakistan’s parliament, and control or partial control of two of the nation’s four provinces.

The group has been vocal in its opposition to the US-led war against terrorism, and Musharraf’s decision to ally Pakistan with the fight.

Baluch said terrorism “is increasing” and the international community, especially America, should find out the causes of terrorism and “address them with justice”.

Islamic groups oppose US support for Israel and want Washington to pull troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

In a message to British Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday, Musharraf, said: “It is imperative that we stand together and further strengthen our bonds of cooperation to eliminate this menace.”

Musharraf has outlawed several homegrown militant groups – some with links to the Taliban and al-Qaida – in line with a policy to eliminate extremism from the conservative Muslim nation.

He has survived at least three attempts on his life, which authorities say al-Qaida was behind.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, who also survived a suicide bomber’s assassination bid, also expressed grief over the “shocking news of the bomb explosions in central London”, the Foreign Ministry said in a statement late yesterday.

Re: # 18

...... people like liaqat baluch should be locked up in guantanamo, sewing caps and writing the koran, instead of sitting in parliament and spouting nonsense ........... but he is not alone since there is no shortage of conspiracy theory idiots in the ummah - i am sure we will soon see people like echoboom voicing similar views on this forum .........

#6

…there is no justification for such acts, not in my qur`an, not in my culture…

but temp…haven’t you heard? there is only ONE kind of muslim; the bearded pious kind…everyone else is a wannabe. you, me, and anyone else who wishes to join the happy circle of heathens may be engaged in self-deluding pretensions but muslims we aren’t. not only are we the “voice in the wilderness”, we are the wilderness.

rgds
miriam

Here`s a courageous, humane, and defiant statement from the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone (contrast this to the obscene and moral grandstanding statements by Bush & Blair):
``I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.

That isn’t an ideology, it isn’t even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I’m proud to be the mayor of that city.

Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life.

I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail.

In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.

They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don’t want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.”

vereesh #8: ``Yes, Temporal, and all the rest over here and our friends who are in the forefront again, please stand up and be counted, or forever keep your peace.``

There is something I have been trying to discuss with many of our Indian colleagues on this site. Something on which there seems to be a lot of confusion........

Whenever something related to Pakistan is being discussed, many of our Indian collegues tend to complain (and to some extent, though not completely, correctly) that Pakistanis tend to look towards Islam and their civilization and origin and community and culture. When, in fact, they should be looking towards South Asia, and not try to portray themselves as a part of an Ummah of some sort, i.e. they should not hail the raids of Ghaznavi and Ghauri, regardless of whether they were Muslims, or not.

However, the moment someone sets off a bomb in any area of the world, many of our Indian colleagues automatically put every Muslim into an Ummah, i.e. everyone is part of one Muslim civilization. Completely contrary to the original stand of wanting Pakistanis to prefer their cultural history over their religious history.......

Your comments seems to point in this direction......

There is a conflict going on between Iraq and America. Which UK has joined. And they are busy killing each others` civilians. It has now travelled from the streets of Baghdad to the streets of London. Something that was bound to happen. Even the British police said they knew it was inevitable.........

Now, why in the world are you calling Indian Muslims or Muslims anywhere else, to, ``stand up and be counted.`` One could understand you calling Iraqis or Arabs or Americans or Brits to stand up and be counted, for all this violence. But why call all the Muslims (or all the Christians, for that matter) to stand up.............

One can understand that Al-Qaeda views civilizations along reliigous lines. But do you, as well? It seems to me that you (and varoius others) tend to switch back and forth, as and when it seems convenient, i.e. when a bomb goes off, all Muslims are the same. However, when someone wants to discuss invasions of South Asia, or the cricket team of India, Muslims should forget they are Muslims and concentrate on their cultural and geographical heritage...........Could you kindly clarify this contradiction..........

some alternate view points…

The Price of Occupation

George Galloway, George Monbiot, Stephen Grey

thomas friedman

Dear Romair,

I think the brilliance of the facts staring you in the face have blinded you.

All day we have seen ex-pat Muslim ``leaders`` of South Asian and Arab origin bleating like Mary had a Little Lamb. ``Keep the peace, stay inside, protect us, worry about our women``. They are even crying in UAE, can you beat that, read Al Jazeera.

Butter wouldn`t melt in their mouth, so cold is the sweat of fear based on home truths.

No denying that?

On the other hand, have you seen any Muslim ``leaders`` from, say, the African or Far Eastern or American regions doing anything other than putting their shoulders with their fellow-countrymen and getting along with life?

Stand up, Romair, and be counted with the Muslims who are now saying, openly, enough is enough. If you can understand that, fine. If you really think that all Muslims are equal, then try it.

Otherwise go hide behind the skirts of the ``leaders`` crying on television right now.

I hope it answers your question?

No?

I thought so.

So here goes.

For 5 decades and more now, some of us, some of you, have shared this belief that we were descended from the wind of the horses racing in the desert. And that everybody else was haram. Habshee, goraa, cheenee, bungalee, chapta, aurat, chooraa, kafir, vagera vagera.

Now what?

I hope you understand now.

If you don`t, you can always join the dwindling ranks of those hiding behind the skirts of the ``leaders``.

+++

And the last I heard about Iraq, they were killing the (Muslim) Ambassador from Egypt.

+++

This circle of violence is reaching dangerous proportions. Many of us, had been stating this for a long time, when we wrote against the Iraq war. The blame for these attacks, primarily, goes onto the individuals who carried them out. And secondarily goes onto the individuals who have been pushing the war in Iraq............

Obviously, all these attacks are a part of political violence. They are not some random targeting by people trying to overthrow the UK govt. There have been attacks in Pakistan against American targets (which killed Pakistanis, and no Americans). There was a massive attack in Indonesia, against Australians. There was an attack in Spain against Spaniards. There was an attack in Turkey against a British target. And now an attack in London against Londoners.

Even a child should be able to put two and two together to see what is common. There is a common political strategy. If they cannot put two and two together, then they need to simply go to the website of the group that claimed the attack. England, Australia, Spain and USA all have (had) forces in Iraq. That is obviously the common thread..........Canada, Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxemborg, etc. have not been targeted. Since they have no troops in Iraq........

So the Iraq war is now slowly moving from the streets of Baghdad to the streets of Europe. Instead of trying to play a game of one-upsmanship, people should be concentrating on trying to solve the violence. Rhetoric obviously won`t do much.

Whom is the UK going to attack now? Where exactly does Al-Qaeda exist? It is not a country. It is not a city. At best, it could start targeting its own citizens. Which is probably exactly what Al-Qaeda wants UK to do. As for members of Al-Qaeda is, they, themselves are willing to die. So how exactly does one kill someone, who himself is ready to die.

The solution lies in assessing how much one is willing to give up, in order to carry out violence. Al-Qaeda is willing to give up everything. As are probably many of the citizens of Iraq - specifically those who have lost a lot in this war. If today, Pakistan went and occupied Sri Lanka and killed 100,000 people, sooner or later, the Tamil Tigers would start blowing up people in Karachi or Lahore, instead of in Colombo and Kandy. It is inevitable. At that point, Pakistanis would have to assess whether it is worth their while to continue in such a situation........

This circle of violence is going to get larger and larger, and more and more people will get involved. The end of this circle of violence, lies, not in raising the war rhetoric, but in exiting from it........

So all the people who have loudly been waving the war flags, from any direction, should take some responsibility for the deaths in London, also...............The longer this war goes on, the larger this circle of violence will probably get. Eventually reaching a point where everyone will be engulfed. That is what happened with the Palestine-Israel issue, also............

Iraq seems to have now turned into the new Afghanistan........Which is quite unfortunate..........And I am convinced that whatever has been done there, will have a lot of blowback..........Some of which we have already seen..........People can create rhetoric and increase the problem, or people can think sanely and try to reduce it.........

It makes no sense in getting into a pissing contest with someone who is willing to die for his cause (however, right or wrong the cause maybe)............One should only do that if one has nothing to lose..........Al-Qaeda has nothing to lose........UK has a lot to lose.......UK would be wise to fight Al-Qaeda inside the UK (if it exists)........It is being exceptionally naive in creating more Al-Qaeda by attacking Iraq........

The only country, out of the above list, that has a legitimate battle against Al-Qaeda, is Pakistan. Since Al-Qaeda has infiltrated inside Pakistan. All other countries are creating unnecessary problems for themselves by attacking other countries. They should have negotiated with the Taliban to get the elusive OBL. And then concentrated on rebuilding Afghanistan................That would have made the whole world a safer place........

Apparently, I am not the only one who holds such views. The mayor of London, himself, has the same views:

``One of the arguments deployed by Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London, when he appealed to Tony Blair not to support the war in Iraq was prescient: ``An assault on Iraq will inflame world opinion and jeopardise security and peace everywhere. London, as one of the major world cities, has a great deal to lose from war and a lot to gain from peace, international cooperation and global stability.``

Basically, he is telling Blair that if he attack Iraq, sooner or later, someone will attack London..........

#25 by Romair on July 8, 2005 10:30am PT


Whom is the UK going to attack now?


Cracking down on the brit-paki-Islamist nuts would be a good start...you know the type...ahmed omar saeed sheikh....

they aren`t just killing the egyptian envoy. they have killed the egyptian envoy.

Ihab al-Sherif is dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4660909.stm

bastards!

what was that about the wilderness again?

may god give strength to his family at this time. and may he rest in peace.

and no one`s circular arguments or rationalizing is going to bring him back. or any of the dead for that matter.

[...They should have negotiated with the Taliban to get the elusive OBL. And then concentrated on rebuilding Afghanistan...]

coming from a guy who was ecstatic about flying pakistani fighter jets alongwith the americans against the taliban in afghanistan...romair manages to give people something to laugh about even in tragic times.

Re: # 25
Dear Romair:

You have made several points in your post, and I would like to address the following:

1. ``This circle of violence is reaching dangerous proportions..... ..... Obviously, all these attacks are a part of political violence. ..... And now an attack in London against Londoners.``

2. ``Even a child should be able to put two and two together to see what is common. There is a common political strategy. .... England, Australia, Spain and USA all have (had) forces in Iraq. That is obviously the common thread..........Canada, Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxemborg, etc. have not been targeted. Since they have no troops in Iraq........ ``


You are oversimplifying a very complex situation. ``This circle of violence`` and child should be able to ``put two and two together`` to state violence began with Iraq war is a wrong perspective. The truth is when the violence matures to a stage that it begins the ``circle of violence`` no one involved in it can see the beginning and end of the circle - the two merged long time ago to make a circle. Therefore at this stage it cannot be left for child logic of ``put two and two together``. The two only way the circle of violence is thrown out when both parties decide to go for it - either through violent means or through peacefule means.

3. ``So the Iraq war is now slowly moving from the streets of Baghdad to the streets of Europe. ....``

Thus moving the violence of war to streets of Europe is only escalating it further ``upping the ante``. Honestly you do not think that the west does not have warewithall to up the ante still further. You can see the result of what happened to Soviet Union when the ante was being upped in the game of circle of violence through cold war. One is thing is for certain the ante has been upped now ... Al Qaida decided to do it by moving the was to Streets of London. This action fills the west with more terrible resolve to fight on and not back down. The solidarity in the line up shown behind Blair on TV must be clear to every admirer of such logic that if the west can annouce $50 Billion debt write off it can take care of cost of war. Believe it or not this cost will be paid out of Arab oil eventually, and rich Arabs will take the hits, and poor Arabs will stay deeper in grinding probably perpetual poverty. Would you not call it Ironic that in that G8 there were two addtions - Chinese and Indian faces - and no Arab, no Pakistani, no Iranian, no Turkish faces -- simply put no muslim / Islamic faces. Now you can interpret it as the grand strategy against Islam, or accept it as a solidarity against the violence. The choice is your, the consequences will be faced mutually.

The rest of the humanity is trying to trying to say ``own the violence and fight`` or ``disown the violence of OBL / Al Qaida and join``.

Yesterday, the terror was the 11th uninvited member of this gathering. Can you honestly answer how the world saw the arrival of this uninvited member? Is this how you want Islam to arrive at such gathering of humanity?

This are my question to you and others. And I hope your answer is categorical NO, and you do soul searching what Islam must choose - increase the circle of violence or throw the circle of violence out. If the answer is NO, then why not have the courage to say that this use of Koran / Islam / Muslims is unlawful and Islam will not tolerate it, and that this is not Islam. The followers of OBL are not muslim, they follow ``Binladinism`` not Islam.

If fatwas can be issued to declare Ahmadiyas are not muslim, then why no fatwas that OBL is not muslim, practitioners of such violence are not muslim.

4. ``Whom is the UK going to attack now? Where exactly does Al-Qaeda exist? It is not a country. It is not a city. At best, it could start targeting its own citizens. Which is probably exactly what Al-Qaeda wants UK to do. As for members of Al-Qaeda is, they, themselves are willing to die. So how exactly does one kill someone, who himself is ready to die.


This is not even the question worth asking, because you already know the answer - from Churchill`s famous speech on ``Battle of Britain`` ``.... on the beaches.... on the streets....`` The fight will be wherever the terror will take the fight.

5. ``The solution lies in assessing how much one is willing to give up, in order to carry out violence. Al-Qaeda is willing to give up everything. As are probably many of the citizens of Iraq - specifically those who have lost a lot in this war....``

If the situation is so hopless that Al Qaida has nothing to loose. Please tell when and where people or nations have negotiated with anyone who has nothing to loose. I can say the other side of your logic is that if Al Qaida is willing to give up everything, then the west is willing to make sure Al Qaida gives up everything, and that the West will only work on how fast and how soon it can create such a situation - a la Soviet Union.

6. ``This circle of violence is going to get larger and larger, and more and more people will get involved. The end of this circle of violence, lies, not in raising the war rhetoric, but in exiting from it........ ``

If Al Qaida, wants to increase the circle of violence, then do you think the West care that Al Qaida cares of Al Qaidas survival. More important question, if I were a muslim, would be do I, as a muslim, care that the rest of the humanity musst care about my religion of my choice. It is important for my self-esteem. Victory by Al Qaida or terror is not important for Islam (unless you think otherwise) for my religion to surivive, and not it is important for my self-esteem.

7. ``....makes no sense in getting into a pissing contest with someone who is willing to die for his cause (however, right or wrong the cause maybe)............One should only do that if one has nothing to lose..........``

8. ``Al-Qaeda has nothing to lose........UK has a lot to lose.......UK would be wise to fight Al-Qaeda inside the UK (if it exists)........It is being exceptionally naive in creating more Al-Qaeda by attacking Iraq........``

Irony is that you do not see what I, as a non-muslim, and certainly indirectly affected by the terror, like the rest of non-muslim do not see. Believe me, just as much as you believe in your religion, the West is not going down on its knees because Al Qaida has brought the terror to the streets of London / Europe from the streets of Bagdad.

9. ``The only country, out of the above list, that has a legitimate battle against Al-Qaeda, is Pakistan. Since Al-Qaida has infiltrated inside Pakistan.``

This infiltration into body fabric of Pakistan society is not that of Islam, which was always there. These are cancer cells which arrived later due to the life style Pakistan lead - like a person who smokes gets cancer, and cancer cells multiply. The terror like cancer cell would multiply. In a way Al Qaida taking terror to the Streets of Europe is good. Institutional funding of terror through Saudi oil money is being controlled, the private contributions from rich British - Pakistanis, French - Muslims, German - Muslims will now be controlled. The cancer cells will be attacked through radiation and chemo therapy within the body fabric. This is the only way to control cancer, and at this stage cancer is not so spread out that the west would die.

The choice is clear, and I believe Mushraff made a very smart choice. He needs the will power to administer the treatment of this cancer.

The west and even India has the determination to treat the cancer from their society. About time, a muslim society takes a lead. I see, Musharaff doing exactly that, and deserve the support.

Thank you.
Anil Kapuria

This is a call to ALL muslims to take a stand because the terrorists have made it so. They have usurped the religion and are killing in our name. I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t recall getting an email from OBL asking my permission to blow up buildings, subways, and buses. And then categorically declaring that it is incumbent on all muslims everywhere to kill “infidels”. The west hasn’t equated all muslims with terrorism, the terrorists have managed to do that all on their own.

The blood hasn’t even dried on the streets of London and the muslim leadership instead of considering themselves true members of the community and helping, are worried about their OWN necks! Honestly, bohoth sharm ki baat hai!

Once again people are talking about moral equivalence where there is none. Yes, Bush’s war on Iraq is immoral as was his carpet bombing of Afghanistan. There was no reason to bomb Afghanistan and absolutely none to attack Iraq...not just immoral, that decision was plain stupid.

But let’s not equate the two. The first difference is the obvious one. The US bombers do not set out to kill innocent men, women and children although this is the inevitable consequence of what they do and they know it. The other lot deliberately targets innocent people and know fully well that only the innocents will be hurt by their actions.

But there is another and, in my opinion, deeper distinction. Bush operates in a system with its own checks and balances. He did what he did because his people gave him a mandate for it. More and more of them are thinking that it was a wrong decision and they will remove him from the office. But where do the people who blew up the trains in Madrid or Tube in London get their mandate? Not from any government; not from the people of Iraq who did vote in an election recently; not from the Organization of Islamic Countries or even a single ruler of a Muslim country.

Romair is right when he asks “Whom is the UK going to attack now? Where exactly does Al-Qaeda exist? It is not a country. It is not a city.” When you come right down to it, these people are inspired by an ideology based on their interpretation of what is in a sacred book and the precedents set by a man 1400 years ago. The man died long ago and the Book is claimed to be authored by God who is supposed to have forfeited His right to ever change it or even to send another messenger to tell humans what is the correct interpretation and the contexts of some controversial passages. Therefore, the crux of the problem is people believing in the immutability of the Book and it will remain so until some brave souls come along and rebel against this immutability.

If the purpose of such attacks is to persuade Bush and Blair to change their policies, they are quite counterproductive. Quite a few of us who are against Bush’s pig-headed policies would agree that withdrawal now would be capitulation to terrorism. I wonder if Nixon would have been forced to withdraw from Vietnam if communist gorillas had targetted New York subway.

This is what Indian PM Singh said of the Indian Constitution,while receiving a Doctor of Civil Law degree at Oxford, his alma mater, after attending the G-8 plus 5 summit in Gleneagles:

``The prime minister said the Indian Constitution, which emphasises on the principles of secularism, democracy, the rule of law and above all, equality of human beings irrespective of caste, community, language or ethnicity, has deep roots in the country`s civilisation``.

Why can`t middle eastern and pak muslims learn to respect their fellow human beings and get along?.Why can`t they learn from indian muslims?.Indian muslims did not have to register with the US authorities after 9/11, unlike the middle eastern and pak muslims.Indian muslims` citizenship was their passport to a new future.Not their religion.

All this stuff is so dreary, though!!.It is the weekend, and i have arrived in Chennai where i divide my time with Mumbai, due to the nature of my work.For all chennai-ites, a new dance club/bar named `Tek-Trek` has opened at the Trader`s hotel.I will divide my time between this club and ``Speed``, another great dance club/bar.India seems like an oasis of calm and serenity, Ayodhya notwithstanding, compared to the chaos in the world.Touch wood!!!.Let us keep it going on.Continuing with my links to pics of indian metros, two links to Chennai and Mumbai.........

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=232528

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981&page=7&pp=20

Have a good weekend, folks!!!.

Re: # 32 DM
//... But where do the people who blew up the trains in Madrid or Tube in London get their mandate?....//

65% pakis support Osama and Al qaeda, probably that many saudis support him too. Is that ``mandate`` good for you?

Come on, who are you kidding? These people are doing what they are doing because of the widespread support they enjoy from muslims world over. This is a war - this is war between west and islam/muslims.

Who do you bomb now? ... what about the GHQ in pakiland? Prince Bandar`s palace in Saudi? That will do. It ain`t that difficult really.

Re: # 32 DM
//... But where do the people who blew up the trains in Madrid or Tube in London get their mandate?....//

65% pakis support Osama and Al qaeda, probably that many saudis support him too. Is that ``mandate`` good for you?

Come on, who are you kidding? These people are doing what they are doing because of the widespread support they enjoy from muslims world over. This is a war - this is war between west and islam/muslims.

Who do you bomb now? ... what about the GHQ in pakiland? Prince Bandar`s palace in Saudi? That will do. It ain`t that difficult really.

Dost-mittar/Anil #: ``Once again people are talking about moral equivalence where there is none...........The US bombers do not set out to kill innocent men, women and children although this is the inevitable consequence of what they do and they know it.``

People are talking about a sane reasoning that ends violence. Not a rhetorical call to arms, which increases violence.

I discuss this subject with a lot of people. And there is something interesting I have noticed. Everyone makes their own moral equivalences. To you, the killings of the people ini Iraq are not intentional. Try telling that to the families of the people who are killed. I will not get into the details of how bombing is done, but you should study it. Those people would be alive had Iraq not been bombed. Targeting a whole country`s civilian population is as much of a crime as targeting a train. If not a bigger one. I have no idea how anyone can even attempt to not understand this.

Similarly, to many people the killings of those in London are counter-terrorism. They will provide, just as strong an argument as Anil has done, for their cause. And how they are not the guilty party. Who is right and who is wrong? Where does that leave the world?

In my opinion, both are wrong..........

If everyone keeps trying to prove that the killings they carry out are more moral than the killings that someone else carries out, then the world will be filled with violence. People have to set a standard for killings. A dead person is a dead person. It doesn`t matter if he was killed by a bomb from an F-16 or one in a train. Or if he was killed by State forces in Kashmir or an infiltrator`s bomb in Kashmir.........

Within this group, at least in my opinion, I and others like me are making the correct decision. We are describing all deaths of civilians, be they Muslim or Hindu or Christian or anyone else, regardless of the manner in which they are killed, to be terrorism. Too many poeple, including many on this site, unfortunately, see only throught the religious spectrum. And fail to accept the killings carried out by those of their own religion (this includes Hindus, Muslims, Christians)...........

This is not a moral equivlance. It is an consistent definition. As long as people keep trying to justify the bomb from an F-16 or the bomb in a subway, there will never be peace. Because violence begets violence. Someone has to stand up and say, both are terrorism.

And this is what I see lacking. And there is no argument that is ever going to convince me that only rich dead people or the deaths of citizens of rich nations, should be mourned, and those who are poor should just be statistics.

I am extremely glad that the leaders of ten nations have stood side by side, to condemn this. However, I would be really glad if they stood by side to condemn all such killings, including those their own forces carrying out. There has to be something more than ironic about Putin condemning killings of innocents, when he, himself, orders far higher killings by his own forces. Not to mention Bush himself, who has done the same.........

There need to be people who should have the courage to call the killiings in London, terrorism. And people who have the courage to call the killings in Iraq terrorism. In this case, at least according to the mayor of London and the organization that claimed it, they are connected. I call them both terrrorism. I hope both of you do, as well. If you don`t then I am afraid we have a completely different understanding of how the world operates and how to view it.

Anil #30: Perhaps you did not understand my reply. I, obviously, consider the killings in London to be terrorism. There is no justification for it. If you read my arguments, I tend to base my arguments on studies by human rights organizations.........

At the same time, I do think they are connected to Iraq. As does the Mayor of London. And the organization that claimed the attack. I don`t think those people would have been dead, had Blair not invaded Iraq. This is not a justification for the killing. Quite the contrary, it is an attempt to understand them........

Having said that, I have not found too many people acknowledge State terrorism. I thus cannot agree with your comment, about G-8 nations showing consolidarity against terrorism. I think they only show consolidarity against some terorrism. Not all. Some of them, have carried out much larger amount, themselves.........

I would, thus, be interested in your views about State terrorism. This includes State terrorism by Muslim countries also, as well as by those who are in the G-8. Are you willing to acknowledge State terrorism, as terrorism? Or do you feel that only Al-Qaeda`s terrorism is terrorism. And killing carried out by a State are mere statistics.......?

I am hoping to find, at least one other person on this site, who considers death of any innocent, be it by an F-16 or a car bomb, by a democractically elected President or an autocrat, by someone of their own religion or someone of another religion, all to be terrorism.........

Unfortunately I haven`t found anyone...........Everyone thinks their, ``people`` drop or place bombs that accidently kill others, or their, ``people`` are only carrying out revenge killings..........

There seems to be a very dangerous trend developing here (at least on this site). There can be nothing more dangerous than asking a whole religion to take blame for something carried out by one person.

The problem with such an approach is that there is no country in the world, which simply consists of people from one religion. Muslims are in a majority in one religion, but a minority in another. Hindus and Christians and Jews etc. are in the same positions.

Such a formula for placing blame is quite counter-productive. And attacks like the current one, are God-sent for people who want to promote such communalism. It gives them a perfect opportunity to isolate the minority communities in their localities and countries. Instead of giving in to such people, one should stand up to them.

What exaclty does Temporal sitting in Toronto, have to do with somebody killing someone in London? Why in the world should he be forced to march in the streets, to condemn the killings? What did he have to do with it? Other than the fact that he shares a religion with the person...........If he wants to march, he should. If he doesn`t want to, he shouldn`t........Now if he is the person who did the killing, that would be a different story........In such a case, he should face the music of the state..........

Let me put it in another way. There is a significantly higher number of Christians in Pakistan than there are Muslims in USA, Canada and UK combined. The current bombings of Iraq by USA and UK are two overwhelmingly Christian countries, with fully Christian leaderships (and in the case of the USA, the powerful influence of a Christian Right group), bombing a Muslim country. I doubt any of the pilots dropping the bombs are Muslims. I know of only Muslim fighter pilot in the USAF (a Pakistani who recently retired). They are nearly all Christians (with some Jews). While those being killed are Muslims...........This may not be portrayed as an attack of Christians on Muslims, in the West. But in the Arab world, it certainly seems to be viewed as such..........To quote an Arab commentator, ``I (he) doubt so many Iraqis would have been killed, had they been Jewish.``

The Christian community is Pakistan is quite vulnerable. Now, should I go to Pakistan, and force all the Pakistani Christians to march in the streets of Lahore condemning, what their co-religionist (Bush and Blair) have done in Iraq. After all killing 100,000 people is not merely, ``stupid.`` It is a massacre.

The last thing I would do is try to connect the Pakistani Christians with what I view as State terrorism, simply because they share a religion with those in another country. In fact, I would vehemently oppose such a connection. Such a connection would be nothing but an attempt to promote communalism.

A similar comparison can be made with the Gujrat killings. Should I demand of the Hindu community in Pakistan to march in Karachi condemning the killings by the Gujrat Govt. - someone they had nothing to do with..........

I certainly would not do that, either.........So people need to take it easy on the rhetoric. It is counterproductive. People should try to look at these things, outside the spectrum of religion. Or at least outside the spectrum of their own religion..........What is needed are people who stand outside all religions, and view all these issues through the spectrum of human rights and how each is linked with the other.............They should accept the fact that a dead person who is not of their religion or country is as dead as a dead person of their religion or their country.........

The other option, is to of course, start killing people wherever one is stronger than the other..........In which case, Vereesh could tell someone in Canada to try to kill Temporal, if the later does not march in the streets, and Temporal could tell someone in Pakistan to kill Patrick Masih if he does not march in the streets..........

Re: # 37

Romair:

You have asked me about my definition of State Terrorism. I already have a feeling you will not like my definition of the State Terrorism, and any discussion will delfect the attention away from my points and dilute them. Therefore, I would like to leave State Terrorism out for now. We can certainly discuss in another set up. I would only ask you to think if you would have considered bombing of Baluchistan by Pakistan and brutality of Pakistani Army in East Pakistan as State Terrorism. I give you my answer now so that there is no doubt where I stand. I would NOT consider them as State Terrorism, however brutal and however immoral they may be to invoke human rights trials of Nuremburg kind. In my student days, Vietnam war was its peak, and I used to be quite passionate and active like many others in anti war movements. Therefore, I realize there is always a struggle for or against the State, thus there are two sides. You can choose to call one Terrorism, and the other State Terrorism. I certainly would not.

The questions that I have asked you are serious and current. Something I ponder with very small knowledge of Islam that I have gathered thru talking and reading, and hence my questions to you. Please try and answer each separately you wish to answer, because I do not think any sane human of any shade or color would have wanted Islam to arrive as the 11th uninvited guest in this fashion. Why these acts be Islamic, and those calling as Islamic or in support of Islam be dealt sternly by people within the Islamic tent? Why these acts be not called Al Qaida-ism or Binladinism and perpetretors of these acts be called the followers of Al Qaida or Binladin, and not believers of Islam? Why?

Thank you.

Anil

Let it be, Romair.

You wouldn`t understand a few simple things.

However, I try. Try to say this like ``they`` would say it in the PG. ``As by Godh you are my Brudhter I try to tell you . . .``

a) Perception beats fact, always. So please don`t try to use both on the same plane. You can try to bury us with your ``facts``, right or wrong, they currently don`t matter. Eat your facts with your cornflakes,

b) Perception is that a particular breed of unwashed, hairy and cowardly (UHC) Muslims seems to be trying to hijack Islam. And that this lot is particularly active, lately, in some parts of the world. Many other non-UHC Muslims choose to keep quiet and ride along because it suits them.

c) Perception also is that this lot of ``quiet`` non-UHC Muslims has suddenly woken up to realise that all bets are now off, and that amongst other things they shall be poked as well as prodded even at Heathrow. This is the lot which is currently running around like cowards saying ``Enough, enough``.

d) World over, the trend is now for ``others`` to tell the UHC that payback is due.

So, whether it is T or Romair, you make your choices, and you stand up and be counted wherever you are.

+++

For the rest, your ``facts`` or ``non-facts``, what does it matter? Perception management is all that it is about, lately.

+++

And perception is that the UHC lot are the same as the lot running around crying into televisions about ``backlash``. I mean, have you seen the victims crying as yet, I haven`t.

+++

the imam of orange county told aaron brown on cnn tonight that ``muslims in america are alienated from the american people...the american govt should do more to reach out to the muslims...``

when asked why the prominent muslim religious leaders have not condemned/issued a fatwa on bin laden, the imam said ``it has already been done 1400 years ago...if you read the koran, verse 5:...and verse 7:.... condemn attacks against innocents, so there is no reason to condemn this any further....``

aaron brown closed the interview by saying ``well, doing so won`t hurt``

re: M # 31

Whether or not people take a clear stand, the kind of stand they take, and the circumstances under which they take different stands, tell a lot more about individuals than they would like to reveal. It is useless to complain that what is revealed may not be factual. For other people, facts about us exist only as they perceive them.

For the world beyond, it is rational to severely discount our words, and focus almost exclusively on the patterns of our actions and inactions, successes and failures, and finally, sympathies and apathies.

Once people accept that simple general truth, a great deal of misplaced bitterness will be removed, and a common understanding will be facilitated.

#38 by Romair on July 8, 2005 3:46pm PT
Let me put it in another way. There is a significantly higher number of Christians in Pakistan than there are Muslims in USA, Canada and UK combined

.........This is a bold faced lie.It would apply to India.Not to Pakistan.And, we all know the plight of christians in Pakistan.Roadkill is accorded better status.

actually what someone is doing in toronto does have quite a bit to do with what is going on in baghdad. or teheran. or london. or new york, whether it is violent, or non-

a thesaurus would list blame and responsibility as synonyms, as would most of us. but it is not that we should blame an entire community for the murder of a group of people. we do have a responsibility as citizens of a world community however, to speak up and against that which we feel is damaging to our community as a whole. murder, be it sponsored by a ``state`` or by a group of people is damaging to our communities and has everything to do with us, as do other things like the environment for example.

we are not all ``at fault`` for what is ongoing in iraq. or for what has happened in london. but when we are consumed by fear for our own communities in terms of ``backlash`` rather than realizing what our responsibilities are as citizens of a greater community. . . no matter what our creed is, there is a problem.

ana#44
Yes. Hundreds of thousands of Londoners came on the streets to protest against Blair`s policy of sending troops to Iraq; films were made against Bush in the U.S, politicians raised voices and an election was fought against such policies; effigies of Bush and Blair were burnt in several countries. Now, it is the turn of those in whose names the bombs were blasted in London to raise slogans and burn the effigies of those who sponsor such attacks. This is necessary to avoid guilt by association syndrom.

Romair:

``This is not a moral equivlance. It is an consistent definition. As long as people keep trying to justify the bomb from an F-16 or the bomb in a subway, there will never be peace.``

Nobody is justifying an F-16 bombing, at least not I. When those bombings take place, many of us do condemn them and even those who support them feel guilty enough to hide their guilt by coining euphemisms like collateral damage. We do not at that time try to justify or ``understand`` such bombings. Now is the time for similar outrage with protest marches, slogans, effigy burnings and declaring fatwas against those who sponsor such acts.

The objective is not to malign a whole religious community but the opposite. Only massive demonstations and unqualified condemnation of such acts would show that the whole community should not be tarred; otherwise, you would have politicians making politically correct statements while the security apparatus will conitnue their profiling of the community with greater vigour. And this includes Canada.

There is a difference between state sponsored acts and those by uncontrolled groups and you yourself had pointed out that difference in your earlier post. If a state had declared war against the US/UK, even a declaration of a jihad by a muslim country, one could negotiate or fight with them. But you can`t with these people. Even if you can negotiate with OBL, someone could declare a fatwa against that compromise and the fight will continue.

Re: # 45 DM
//...it is the turn of those in whose names the bombs were blasted in London to raise slogans and burn the effigies of those who sponsor such attacks....//

But that not going to happen - never has, never will. We all know that.

The reality is that - muslims at large identify the ``causes`` these terrorists claim to be fighting for. The violence is deemed necessary as a revenge for perceived sins committed by the West against muslims. And increasingly, it`s also considered a deterrent - that such violence is necessary to deter western gov`ts from commtting the ``sins``.

........ So ``official`` condemnations from Imams and other community ``leaders`` are perfunctory - done more out of fear of possible backlash rather than any heartfelt fellow-feeling. And the latest report is that the london attack was done by local muslims, not foreigners.

Even if it`s politically incorrect to say so - in many ways, entire muslim communities are responsible for this terrorism. There is widespread community support for these activities and activists - in terms of money, shelter, ideology and acquiescence. This is a fact and proved again and again by the fact there is no community action whatsover to stop or discredit these so called ``small minority`` of muslims who do terrorism.

Tempo Bhai;

Sorry to get here a bit late! A poem like this would (and did) generate the type of extensive political discussion that we see here – I’m not sure whether that was your intent. I personally see this more as an expression of sadness at what happened while making a plea for breaking out of the “spiral”. Certainly noble intentions! Who is the intended target, though, and is it even here?

I don’t buy this stuff about AIDS that you make. That problem has been around long enough and well-understood enough that people know what to do to avoid catching it, and it certainly does not need the same focus as terrorism at this time.

Leaving aside the sentiment and good intentions contained in the poem, I must state that as a reader I find its flow to be a little awkward – some words flow smoothly but still feel like sand particles whereas others tend to get stuck in my mouth like concrete chips. Also, putting in astrixes and footnotes in a poem kind of gives it the look and feel of an article – at least the way I feel!

Also, I believe the term is “Slam, Bam, Thank you, Ma’m”. and what about the following counterparts.

slam...
...andy
bang...
...brian
thank...
...charlie
you...
...david
ma`m...
...edward
slam bang thank...
...and franky, georgey, harry...

#4
[Wild men
Who kill
Have Karmas
Of ill]

But those who will
Must pay the bill

#6 temporal
[laikin yara who listens to you or me?... ]
Me and you, of course! :)

#various Veeresh
It’s unfair to beat up on the poets, simply because of their religion! A lot of things that you ask him to do, you can do too!

#14 by cayenne
Why do you needle the Britishers so?

#16 by hamidm2
[...... i honestly believe that man was pre-programmed to self destruct - it is simply a matter of time ...........]
Hopefully, a LONG time! Good point, though!

[...... nothing a few stiff martinis cannot fix ........]
Ah, the solution to ALL of the world’s problems! If only it could work for teetotalers like me!

#20 by miriamk
[…we are the wilderness.]
Or just the wild bunch!

#30 by anil
[You can see the result of what happened to Soviet Union when the ante was being upped in the game of circle of violence through cold war.]
The Soviets were a definable entity, not an elusive one! They also had a desire to LIVE on!

[The rest of the humanity is trying to say ``own the violence and fight`` or ``disown the violence of OBL / Al Qaida and join``. ]
I believe Tempo bhai is saying the same in his own way! After all, he did not INVENT Islam and certainly not these fundamentalist elements! A fatwa is only of symbolic value, unless someone decides to go about enforcing it. Accordingly, a fatwa by Tempo bhai against OBL won’t get us any further.

#31 by miriamk
[This is a call to ALL muslims to take a stand because the terrorists have made it so.]
With you leading the pack, willing to take the first bullet, of course!

#37 by Romair
[Having said that, I have not found too many people acknowledges State terrorism.]
You don’t seem to get the obvious part – if the state is legitimate (i.e., a democracy – with checks and balances) then its policies reflect the will of its population, so “state terrorism” is an oxymoron for those countries! A LOT of individuals on this site use that artificial fig-leaf to apologize for the terrorists!

For those folks who are of the opinion the ``terrorists`` are misinterpreting Quran, the following verses from the Quran would clarify any doubts..

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ``I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.``

008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Reference:
Holy Quran

Dost-mittar #46: ``Nobody is justifying an F-16 bombing, at least not I.``

Frist of all, around 75% of the population of the USA did, ``justify`` those attacks. As did about 35% or so, of the European population. So one has to take your, ``no one`` with a grain of salt.

The second part is that this is a question is not of merely, ``not justifying.`` It is a question of accepting the acts as acts of State terrorism. I am not only not justifying the acts of OBL. I accept them as terrorism. However, I am not sure whether you accept the acts of George Bush as State-sponsored terrorism.

``There is a difference between state sponsored acts and those by uncontrolled groups and you yourself had pointed out that difference in your earlier post.``

Yes. But in a different way. State-sponsored acts are much worse, because they are, generally, done with the support of the majority of the people in the country. Not by some random citizen. A country has to and should take the responsibilty for them. And the leaders of the country should be sent to justice for it.

Dost-mittar #45: ``Now, it is the turn of those in whose names the bombs were blasted in London to raise slogans and burn the effigies of those who sponsor such attacks. This is necessary to avoid guilt by association syndrom.``

This is extremely dangerous line of thinking. And I am quite sad that you hold such views. It is such views that are the basis of communalism. No one should ever, ``have`` to do anything, under threat to avoid, ``guilt by association.`` Guilt by association is something that should be avoided by by person making the association. Not by the individaul(s) being associated........

I am also quite surprised (not to mentioned confused) that you hold such views, since you normally push secularism and not relgion. And you are usually on the forefront of assocaiting with one`s cultural civilization and not one`s religious civilization.

Using my previous example, should I expect all Christians to line up in Lahore to avoid guilt by association with the Christian Evangelist-supported killings of George Bush against Muslims. I would never do that. In fact, I would oppose others who did it.

Do keep in mind that there were millions of Brits who supported Blair`s attacks also. What category do you put them in? Are you willing to put them in the same category as those Arabs (or Muslims) who supported these attacks on London? I am sure you will find a lot of Arabs, who had similar views on the London attacks, i.e while the are sad for the invidual deaths, they are more than willing to write them off as, ``collateral damage,`` for a bigger cause.......

People in London should march against the attacks on Iraq, because it was their government and their country that was carrying them out. They should do so irrespective of their religion. However, Christians in Lahore should not be forced to march in the streets of Lahore, for the same attacks, to avoid, ``guilt by assocaition`` just because it was Western Christians terrorising Mulsim Arabs.........

Similarly I should march in the streets if my country (Pakistan, or even Canada now) attacks London or my govt. carries out terrorism in London. I should also march in the streets if a fellow Pakistani kills Daniel Pearl, while he is in my country of birth. A Pakistani Christian should also march in the street of Lahore, with me, if his country (Pakistan) carries out an unprovoked attack on London. Or for Daniel Pearl........

However, neither I, nor any Christian in Pakistan, nor Muslim in India, nor Hindu in Pakistan, nor Jew in Turkey etc. should ever be forced, expected, threatened or even encouraged to march in any street, just to avoid, ``guilt by association`` based on something they or their country had nothing to do with, just because the perpetrator had the same religion as them.......

If your view became the rule, then every religious minority in any country - be it Pakistan or India or Canada or UK etc. - will live in constant fear of becoming a target of the religious majority, through, ``guilt by association``..........

Romair, please try to understand this simple ``thing``:-

A beats up B in the school yard, so B goes outside and beats him up in return.

A bombs B, so B blows his trains apart.

A steals oil from B, so some part of B starts sharing the loot with A.

Now other part of B doesn`t like A & mini-B stealing oil, so big-B starts blowing up stuff all around.

Now comes the part you need to read carefully:-

Why, at this stage, do all parts of B go crying to A, who is, meanwhile, still getting away with the oil?

+++

Means, by all means fight to save your honour or property or whatever, but why then do the Arabs specialise in going crying to the people they are fighting with in the first case?

I have seen this all my life and can not understand.

+++

And you want to be like the Arabs?

+++

Even now there is time, Romair, admit it, you would make a good Indian. Talk to me, I can ensure they make you, at least, a Brahmin of some sort?

Romair#51:

By ``no one``, I was referring to this thread and chowk in general, some exceptions like tahmed and stuka notwithstanding.

But you did not respond to the crucial comment, namely, that now is the time for Muslims against such attacks to be counted and go on the streets and burn effigees as was done by those who did not agree with Bush and Blair.

You are living in a fool`s paradise if you think that this act will make the British put pressure on their govt. to withdraw from Iraq; indeed, the effect is likely to be quite the opposite. The difference from the US will be that you will hear less talk and more action.

numbers game should not have had an apostrophe in it.

unless it is a game of one particular number.

Romair

You are an imbecile of you think your boyfriends who slaughtered over fifty Londoners will make the British Government alter their course. The world is waking up to the nasty black hearted evil contained in the double-speak of your repulsive type, the death and congealed blood that leaks from your nostrils whenever you talk of peace yet become aroused at the thought of dead infidels.

Britain has steel in its soul and does not bend over like Pakistan to the Arabs and the Americans. Adolf Hitler bombed London for five years and the Nazis did not land a scratch on the British soul. Do you think four bombs by Nazis supported by you will alter a thing?

You pitiful, demented, clueless idiot.

Re: # 48

Beejay:

``#30 by anil
[You can see the result of what happened to Soviet Union when the ante was being upped in the game of circle of violence through cold war.]
The Soviets were a definable entity, not an elusive one! They also had a desire to LIVE on! ``

Cancer cells, much like the terrorism / sleeper cells, are not definable entity as other body parts are, and when cancerous cells are attacked and eradicated from the body to save the body, other healthy cells do it too. The treatment no doubt is radical. Some healthier bodies (like some healthier nations) handle the treatment while others cannot. The west certainly can handle the chemotherapy and radiation treatment that it will administer in its body politic to rid itself of the cancer. Pakistan is in a more delicate situation, and therefore, would need support. I am confident that the West and even India will provide that support to Pakistan if it commits to treating its body politic of the cancerous cells of treatment.

Anil Kapuria

dost-mittar #53: ``You are living in a fool`s paradise if you think that this act will make the British put pressure on their govt. to withdraw from Iraq; indeed, the effect is likely to be quite the opposite.``

I don`t agree. I think the British people (if not their leadership) are more sane and balanced than that.

I think there will be more pressure on Blair, to disassociate himself from the USA, in Iraq. Eurpeans were never in favor of this war. They got dragged into it by the USA. I am glad Canada did not get dragged into it. Otherwise, I am 100% convinced there would be bombs going off in Montreal and Toronto.

One saw the reaction in Spain, after it became a target. There was already a lot of pressure on Blair. This was shown in the election results. The majority of the British population was against this war. And I am pretty sure one of the reasons they were against it was becuase they knew that events like this would occur.

I am not sure what kind of resolute action you are refering to, which it already hasn`t taken. Every action Blair has taken seems to have put the UK under more risk and not less. I still fail to see what advantage Blair has gained by invading Iraq. There was no terrorism against the UK, from Iraq. Or related to Iraq. Now there is. I am truly suprised that you do not see the logic behind this relationship.

I suppose Britain could start bombing Iraq even more. Or bomb another country. Though the British military is too small to do that on its own. And it has far too many business deals with countries like Saudi Arabia etc. The only other thing they could do is to start attacking Arabs or Muslims in UK, through guilt by association. That, itself will destroy their own society, and will not be too easy, since 1 out of 8 Londeners are Muslims...........

So please highlight some solution that the British can use to make London safer. I can only think of one, i.e. Blair should listen to his own population and get out of Iraq. At which time, I have a feeling that London will become as safe as it was before...........

romair says it all for the the ummah ...........

........ as unbeliveable as it sounds, he does represents a significant majority of the ummites - primitive creatures who are either in denial or are too stupid to understand the difference between deliberately killing civilians and killing insurgents who would blow themselve up anyway ........... in the past couple of days i have met many ``educated professionals``, right here in the usa , who refuse to believe that muslims are responsible for the bombings in london : ``only the mossad can organize something like this`` or, better yet, `` it has to be the french - you know they hate the british !``...............

.......... and then they are those who, like captain clueless, are a little bit more reasonable, and who wring their hands and somberly declare, `` it is a horrible crime against humanity, but ......`` .......... but what ? you pieces of toilet flotsam ! ............``but, they are killing muslims in afghanistan and iraq``............. now, how the heck do you argue with fools like this who still think that mullah omar and osama are the prophet and abu bakr incarnate ! ........... they talk about killing muslims in afghanistan as if the afghans were smothering each other with love under the taliban - i guess they think hanging people from the goal post at half-time is part of the game of soccer and tumbling walls on adulterers is prime time entertainment ...........

............. until and unless the muslims get their heads out of the sands of arabia they are destined to be the pariahs of the world

Romair:
``One saw the reaction in Spain, after it became a target. ``

you are just as wrong like everyother commentator in the media - the difference is subtle but Important. Right after the bombings, Spanish PM went public and blamed Basque separatists ETA for the bombings - it turned out to be way too premature and what perceived to be a deliberate obfuscation claimed his head in the Election.

dost-mittar #53: ````But you did not respond to the crucial comment, namely, that now is the time for Muslims against such attacks to be counted and go on the streets and burn effigees as was done by those who did not agree with Bush and Blair.``

You and I will have to agree to disagree, on this...........

I answered your question in reply #51. Kindly go back and read it.

You are arguing with the wrong person on this. I don`t believe in your concept of pressurizing others, on the basis of, ``guilt by religious association.`` As I stated earlier, this is the basis of communalism. And I would try to stop anyone practicing this concept, in any capacity. Not encourage it......

This is a slippery slope. If I accept your comments today, tomorrow you will be asking me to march in the streets for what happened at Godhra...........I never attempted to associate you with the Gujrat killings, just because you are a Hindu........Did I? And I find it quite offensive that you are trying to associate me with what happened in London, just because I am a Muslim........

Frankly speaking, I am upto my ears with you first associating me with murderers and then with rapists, and now with terrorists, just because of my religion.........Do open your eyes and see what you are doing.......For a person who keeps arguing for religious tolerance and acceptance, you certainly have strange standards and beliefs..........

However, if you are truly concerned about what happened in London, and are not just trying to use it to score political or communal points, I would be more than happy to organize a march with you, on this issue, on the basis of humanity.........So you have my open invitation. If you would like to organize a march on this, as a fellow Canadian, I would be more than happy to pass on my email to you. And we can organize it together......I can come to Ottowa, if you prefer...Or you could come south......

What’s transpiring on this board (as well as ozer’s) really goes to the heart of the problem plaguing muslims. We’re unable to even agree amongst ourselves. So how can we possibly project a united front on any issue? There is no uniformity of practice, beliefs, or ideals. Heck, on most days we can’t even agree on what islam is.

No one is disputing that scores of muslims have died, but this can’t be about evening the score. Someone has to take the first step. We can’t get involved in an interminable battle of wits or a “you first, no you first” game. Too much is at stake here.

All I know is that taking a stand and being counted isn’t just about condemning the acts of terror. It’s also about muslims aligning themselves with the larger communities they inhabit, instead of scurrying into their homes. Separating ourselves from the communities we live in only perpetuates the “us” vs “them” divisions the terrorists want to enforce.