The Last Moments of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto

#27 That is all very well. But you are the one who wrote that I should ``shut up``, and I explained in #25 that this rude remark was uncalled for by anything I had written. And you are the one who accused me of ``rumor mongering``, and I explained in #25 that I had provided the exact basis for I heard and as such this could not be called rumor mongering. You have totally ignored this, and simply tell me that I have changed for the worse in the years I have been on chowk.

And to the best of my knowledge, no one ever accused me of being a saint anyway - one who would respond to uncalled for rudeness with gentle reminders to be nice. I would either end the discussion by wishing the poster a nice day; or have a bit of fun at his expense. Always have. Always will. :-)

#25

Tahmed,

After the last fiasco of exchanges we had (I forget the board) I went back and read some of your recent and old interacts (I could not read all since they go back almost 3 years) – and I can not but notice the following:

(1) You used to have fewer but longer interacts, with more patient explanations and never used words like “stupid”.

(2) Your views appear to have been more moderate.

Let me randomly pick a couple of examples to illustrate:

TAhmed32: September 27, 2002: (Board: The Kal Aaj Aur Kal of Secularism ) “…That is, I must have written scores of posts on chowk by now that emphasize respect for all religions and beliefs, and indeed made it clear that it is no big deal whether you are a muslim or a hindu as long as you are good human being who respects all life….”

Also, since you accused BeeJay of being against Pakistanis, let me also present the following sample

(Board: The Politics of Rape on October 5, 2002)
TAhmed32 (To nikhat #78) …. The fact, my friend, is that the 3 out of 4 ``educated`` Pakistanis are incapable of using their minds. They have been brought up in a culture that rejects the right of the individual to think for himself, and in an education system that suppresses creative thinking while promoting rote learning. They respect wealth and power, have no understanding of the rule of law, and have no respect for the individual who happens to be poor and illiterate. ….

TAhmed, I NEVER said anything against the Pakistanis as strong as YOU already seem to have done!

Therefore, based on the above, there are two questions for you –

(1) What happened, and do you like yourself better the way you are NOW than the way you used to be?

(2) Do you think that your late dad (described so touchingly in a couple of your interacts from September 2002) would have liked you better the way you were then, or now?

And by the way, the answers are not needed by me, but perhaps owed to yourself! Thanks.

Uthh jaag ghurare maar naaheen
Aye soon terey darkar naaheen
Moat na jhadee Pir Peghamber
Kithey hai Dara Sultan Sikandar

Beejay: I made clear the exact source of what I heard. If you are incapable of differentiating between this and spreading rumors, then you have to be a pretty stupid man.

As for your uncalled for rudeness, telling me to shut up when I am not arguing about anything - that simply is another indication of your stupidity.

Go back to writing long essays on why Pakistanis are so bad and Indians are so good. Duh!!

#19 tahmed

Although I wish the Col. Rafi had not published this account, one must admit that he has presented a very meticulously detailed account (down to the minutes) of this sad episode from Pakistan`s history.

Let’s do the decent thing by not contributing to the rumor mill (hearsay of a hearsay) regarding a long-dead civilian leader!

Therefore, in the name of everything decent, please SHUT UP!!!

Mr Bhuto was`a flawed genius,having unbridled ambition.He was extremely hostile towards
India and masterminded the failed adventure of 1965 and the purge in Bangladesh.He had
the intellect to outwit a wily leader like Indira Gandhi during shimla talks and could manage the unconditional release of all the 93,000 pakistani pows.Pakistan owns its nuclear deterrence capabilities to the single minded pursuit of Mr Bhutto.It is a pity that he had to die such a tragic and horrific death.

Whether you like Bhutto or not, whether you think Pakiland is better or worse for his actions, the execution of this politician is a shame for all Pakis. Bhutto was murdered for personal vendetta and no amount of excuses can change that. Pakiland suffers from many ills and one of them is a total disregard for humanity, compassion, and common sense. It`s so sad.

This military man should have not defiled dead Bhutto by giving details of his genital exam is sureal to read. If he was gentleman he should have gone to grave without defiled dead hanged man..............


I definitely agree!!.It is a shame, especially since the deceased was the PM.Even our Indira was given her dignity due in death, a state funeral, even though there were many in the land who didn`t agree with her, were victimized by her and even after her death were victimized in her name.Yet she was accorded the dignity due her on the day of her last rites.

Four thing are on the balance sheet of Mr Bhutto..

1- East Pakistan He was one of the Main Characters , responsible or Not... ??

2- Degradation of the Society When he nationalized Educational Insitutes.....he
threw the whole socieity at least 90 point on a scale of 100 for civility if there ever is such a quanitifiable scaling of Civility ...!!

3- Nuclear Club He laid the foundations for Pakistan to join the Nuclear Club

4- Steel Mill could have been a vechile of progress for Pakistan... after all
another steel Mill owner ( Nawaz Sharif ) One day became the Prime Minister of Pakistan.


..... On the side Note.. His trial showed the repeated Failure of Justice System in Pakistan.

I think there is more to the last part (about Bhutto fainting) then colonel sahib is saying - A colonel and two non-coms were sent to escort Bhutto from his cell to the gallows. When they approached him, Bhutto started cursing them. One of the noncoms stepped forward and punched him, and that knocked Bhutto out cold (Bhutto was thin and emaciated by then). Colonel sahb called his general to report this and ask for instructions, and was told to take him to the gallows anyway (i.e. in his unconscious state) and get it done with.

(source: friend of mine who says he heard this from the colonel in question who lives in USA now).

The above is also consistent with something I heard from a completely different source - i.e. another person, who heard it from one of the jailers who was witness to the hanging: the jailer said Bhutto was literally lifted into the gallows, and did not seem to be conscious.

I hope someone gets the facts out before all those who witnessed the hanging themselves have passed away.

The pilot of the C-130, Fareed, a friend of mine, told me that he was on a StandBy duty. He was woken up at midnight for the flight. He was told that he was taking the Prime Minister.

He went and settled into the aircraft. There was the usual activity. Then he asked some one. Has the PM come? He was told `Yes`.

He was surprised. He asked `Where is he?`. The reply came `in the Box`.

He said, at that moment, he felt ground slipping below his feet.

nhk

What amazes me is not the fact that Bhutto was `stone-form` before he was informed about the execution and how his humanic side took over as he was told that he was admonished to death! Or even how the inhuman and corrupt the governing bodies were back then that they had nothing up their sleeves this time to save the poor soul from this disgrace. But the fact, as pointed out by someone earlier, that how mentally, physically and emotionally passive the nation that we call Pakistan is! From the high-ups to the grass-roots. No one really cared what was actually going on.

No, I should put it this way, no one actually has had the balls to stop the nepotism that goes on in the country. And those that do have them, are put to death by someone who is of no interest to the people! How sick can the nation that Jinnah dreamt of be?!?

May Zia and Bhutto R.I.P. Hardly imaginable what and where the souls of these poor deceased be right now, and in what condition. Astagfirullah!

bhutto`s phansi is one of thsoe things everyone rememebres when and how he found out about the news....

I also remember when and how I found out fo Zia`s plane crash first time...life has its own way of making things even.

Again I want to say the justice system failed.
Our downfall started with Justice Munir when he sanctified the take over by General Ayubkhan.
Same thing happened when present general took over, he was able to get okeyed by justices. Our judges have no character or morals and courage to say no to take over they are immoral cowards and beggers looking for leftovers all time like post of ambasidership etc..
Again this can be avoided if we have no judges who are pakistanis. We should have Judges from USA, UK etc. Only at Supreme courts. Rest can be natives. We will have our laws ie constitution but at such cases can be interpreated by American or British Judges appointed by UNO. This is recolonization to help us and approved by UNO. In our neighbourhood in KUfr India Judges at that level have integrity and laws and social ethical milleu provides sufficent background and personal integrity to Punish a general if takes over India to ``save`` India. Unless we have American judges to interpreat take overs lawfulness the coups will errupt at regular interval of 20 years.
We should not be ashamed to ask help as we have and over justices have no moral character. As one american prosecutor said in ``kansi`` trial in USA. He said ``pakistani will sell his mother for few dollars``. What learned prosecutor is belief around and such illusions has lots of truth. If we can take 600 million aid from usa may be out of that can be used say 6 million dollars to pay our american appointed judges who will interpreat our laws. One should take help and if we really want to save problems we need to go to source and we will have to go against current or it will be same again.
It is good some people like YLH are taking training in law school after IT business ventures as we need people of deep conviction at high courts. But I know most masses are asses and do not want to go against currents and we will be always ruled by gun not by law. Old dogs done learn tricks or can not straighten tail.
Its all pathetic.
This military man should have not defiled dead Bhutto by giving details of his genital exam is sureal to read. If he was gentleman he should have gone to grave without defiled dead hanged man. Some time it comes to mind famous people have to carry more pain and suffering. It just striked me all famous plays of shakespear are tragedies Hamlet, McBeth Othello,Kinglear, Julious Ceaser. All mighy people and what depth of sorrow they have.
Mighty suffer lot compared to us and we have hungry dog scavangers fasting on dead bodies.

...bhutto was a bastard in all respects...and so are the current and past leaders...all of them are selfish sons of bitches...infact i should not insult bitches...

I was knee high when the elders were shouting in the morning, ``Ziye nay bhutto nu phaansi laa ta....``

this was a moving narration. of how the mighty fall. who knew a few years later the executioner will also die in a plane explosion.

colorful world indeed.