London’s Hour of Reckoning

As usual, some brilliant comments from Ayaz Amir in Dawn (let me be the first to cut and paste):

``It is no use saying that Islam is a religion of peace or that there is a foul plot afoot to misrepresent Islam and blacken its name when from Bali to Madrid to London it is Muslims who are behind acts of terrorism. To outsiders a religion is known by the fruits it produces and if the present brand of terrorism has a Muslim substance to it, it becomes difficult to sell the ‘true meaning of Islam’.``

``...what we in the Muslim world excel in is internalized anger which, far from harming anyone else, turns us, collectively, into victims of impotent despair — despair falling eternally short of meaningful action, despair deriving a kind of masochistic pleasure from its own helplessness, despair now finding expression in mindless terrorism.``

``Lacking the power to correct our own weaknesses, we tend to blame outsiders for our misfortunes. Thus, even as Muslim rulers turn to the US for support and protection, at the popular level frustration boils over into strident anti-Americanism. Sure, there is much that America can be blamed for, not least its blind support of Israel. But we should not lose sight of the fact that America has not invented Muslim weakness; it merely exploits it, turning it to its advantage.``

``America has a vested interest in Muslim dictatorships because dictatorships are easier to handle. But then again, Muslim dictatorship is not an American invention; merely an American convenience.``

``Bin Ladenism, which is a peculiar distillation of Wahabi Islam, and the terrorism which has come to be its favourite tool, are no answers to American domination or Muslim weakness. In fact, Bin Ladenism, with its narrow interpretation of Islam, is itself a reflection of Muslim weakness because it shows a preoccupation with the very elements which constitute the core of Muslim backwardness: a romantic attachment to a glorified past, an emphasis on literalism, and a comprehensive failure to understand what makes the modern world tick.``

Are the London Bomb blasts related to British intervension in Iraq?


What rubbish!! The group which commited the act calls itself as the ``Secret Group of al Qaeda`s Jihad in Europe``. The groups` name is enough to tell us what it is all about - hatred towards all who do not follow their brand of sunnism. They could have cited any damn reason for comiting their hate crime against the modern world!!
Any one seriously believing in what they claim to the the ``root cause`` only shares the delusions of these misguided Jehadis.

Sad news for fellow Pakistanis

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4683733.stm

Pakistan confirms UK bomber trips

Officials in Pakistan have confirmed that one of the men who carried out last week`s bomb attacks in London had previously visited Pakistan. So far though they have not been able to pinpoint the movements of the bomber, Shehzad Tanweer, in the country or say who he met.

They say he visited Pakistan twice, spending a total of four months there.
On Wednesday Tanweer`s uncle said he had been to Pakistan and attended an Islamic school, or madrassa.

Longer period

According to knowledgeable sources, Pakistani intelligence and investigation agencies are working flat out to accommodate British demands for leads on any of the three London bombers of Pakistani descent.

The sources confirmed to the BBC that Shehzad Tanweer entered Pakistan on two occasions.

They say the first occasion was a brief visit, possibly at the end of 2003, then for a longer period later.

His entries were tracked by a system called Pisces in which everyone who comes into Pakistan legally, via any port of entry, is photographed.

The sources say agencies in Pakistan are still trying to discover Tanweer`s movements inside the country.

The sources say the other two bombers of Pakistani descent had not been picked up on the Pisces system. So if they did enter Pakistan after 2002, when the system was introduced, they did so illegally.

The sources said little was known about the bombers in Pakistan, but more may be known about the people they may have been in contact with.

That, and efforts to ascertain whether there was a Pakistan-based mastermind, will be the focus of investigations in the coming days and weeks.

The sources also said reports that British anti-terrorism, or intelligence investigators, were on their way to Pakistan were untrue.

Can someone explain why Pakistanis burned the US Embassy (or is it consulate) in 1979 on the rumours of the Holy mosque being attacked.. It turned out the attack was carried out by some nutcases who were thinking Saudi was NOT rigorous enuff in Islam.. LOL..

Did the US invade any Muslim country at that time??.. Is it after the Iranian revolution??

Or the battle between the US and Al-qaeda is just a manifestation of the ``crusades`` when people were fighting who is greater the ``son of god`` or the ``prophet of god``??..

Tahmad #347: ``Fair enough.....I think you are putting the cart before the horse. The Iraq War did not give rise to muslim terrorism which was alive and well way before the Iraq War.......``

No one said that Iraq war started it. I tried to trace the birth of OBL and Al-Qaeda, which obviously pre-dated Iraq. I do think that Iraq has given Al-Qaeda, specifically, a big revival, though.

``It will be alive and well after the US has left Iraq``

My analyses is that, after Iraq, it will die down in Europe. But continue against the USA. This was the situation, in Europe, before Iraq. I looked through Pape`s figures, and could not find any suicide attack against Europe, before Iraq. This means, the new attacks are Iraq-related. However, there were attacks agianst USA, pre-Iraq. Indicating those were independent of Iraq.......

With respect to Iraq, I am specifically trying to discuss this particular attack in London. Which according to those who claimed the attack, was related to Iraq. Which makes it imperative to look at Iraq, as an angle......had they claimed it was related to something else, it would make sense to look at that angle.......

Dost-mittar #: ``If the Pakitani elite are panicky it is not reflected in the following letters to the Dawn editor in today`es Interntet edition. Romair seems to capture the sentiments of quite a few Pakistanis.``

I fail to understand your reply (again). So before jumping to conclusions, I would like to ask you, why you think the Pakistani elite should be panicky? And what exactly my sentiments are? My sentiments are nearly identical to those of Robert Pape`s, as far as terrorism is concerned......if that is what you were implying........

Romair: Fair enough. I re-read your complete post and you obviously did not mean to question hamidm`s mosque going habits.

However...in reading across the complete post, I came across this: ``With no, “buts.” However, they, like the British public, and the terrorists themselves, have linked it, correctly in my opinion, to the war in Iraq. Not to legitimize it. Instead to find a solution, for it. ``

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. The Iraq War did not give rise to muslim terrorism which was alive and well way before the Iraq War. It will be alive and well after the US has left Iraq. It will be alive and well as long as muslims dont get of their ``We are the Chosen People`` high horse and end their religio-ego-trip.

dm: who is this ``Pakistani elite`` and what were you expecting them to be panicky about?

If the Pakitani elite are panicky it is not reflected in the following letters to the Dawn editor in today`es Interntet edition. Romair seems to capture the sentiments of quite a few Pakistanis.

London blasts

IT was not love for Islam that triggered the devastating bombs paralyzing London’s enviable city transport services on July 7. It was pure and simple hatred for the sole superpower — the giant which not only enjoys possessing the power of a giant but enjoys, equally, the freedom to use it like a giant — and its supporters.

All those countries, as also individuals, irrespective of their religious identity, who have supported the US in the bloody game played by it in countries that, by chance, happen to be Muslim homelands, are the targets. Even the holiest land of Islam, Saudi Arabia, has not been spared. The Muslim ambassador of Egypt, the leading Arab country, was captured in Baghdad and put to the sword. His Pakistani counterpart, the Muslim envoy of an Islamic Republic, was lucky to have escaped an assassination bid. Pakistan itself has been the scene of numerous suicide bombings. Its head of state and head of government, both Muslims, have had a narrow escape.

Mr Blair should not have played Sancho Panza to the American Don Quixote. And, perhaps, the British electorate shouldn’t have re-elected him as prime minister.

JAFAR WAFA
Karachi


(II)


THE July 7 bombings in London have shocked and pained millions of peace-loving people around the world. These blasts in central London, the heart of liberalism, home to hundreds of thousands of non-conformists and dissidents hounded and persecuted in their own country, could not be the work of a sane mind.

It was a swinging city in the sixties and an abode for millions who loved fun and entertainment. Great thinkers, writers, poets and political activists from all over the world sought asylum and lived there peacefully.

The people of London should not be frightened by these blasts. They must not give up their way of life. After all they had faced the wrath of Hitler when he rained bombs on London. Great traditions of freedom of expression must never be discarded come what may. Only London can boast of a Hyde Park where at any time during the day dozens of political activists from Asia and Africa can be seen speaking about conditions in their own countries.

HASIN AHMED
Karachi


(III)


EVERY time an act of terrorism is committed anywhere, a mysterious clandestine website claims responsibility, apparently aiming at diverting the world’s wrath towards the poor Muslims, who are faced with severe repercussions and punishments in various forms.

The planning of such acts is primarily aimed at harming the Muslims, because these are prohibited in the holy Quran. Therefore, in all fairness, investigators should also try to find the real culprits who harbour such highly devilish motives against the Muslims.

S.M.I.I RIZVI
Karachi


(IV)


LONDON also became a victim of the ill-conceived policy of George W. Bush and Tony Blair, who have assumed the role of arbitrators of freedom and morality while their actions and pronouncements negate both.

The London carnage may leave a deep scar on the face of Britain’s multi-cultural and multi-religious community. No sane person in the world can support such heinous attacks on innocent civilians, whether in London, Madrid, Istanbul, Gaza, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Associated Press correspondent Amy Teibel has reported that former prime minister and present finance minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu was about to use the London subway at the same time on July 7 to attend an economic conference at a hotel near the scene of one of the blasts. Scotland Yard informed the Israeli embassy on July 7 morning that some attack was imminent, which prompted Mr Netanyahu to stay back at his hotel. This may sound coincidental, but after the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers, it was rumoured that Jews working there had been forewarned. All this smacks of a hidden hand.

ALI ASHRAF KHAN
Karachi

#343 by Romair on July 14, 2005 6:05pm PT

Your pakis-as-equal-victims line gets blown out of the water when faced with facts
A majority of Pakistanis think Osama Bin Laden is doing the right thing in world affairs...




Perhaps more like Timothy McVeigh, who did have some kind of an agenda.


McVeigh was a racist..he was against race mixing and hated jews...so, according to the jihadi apologist logic, if the US wants to avoid more McVeigh like bombings, it should re-introduce segregation, ban race mixing and send the jews to the gas chambers....

bbabu #340: Assuming you are willing to have a mature objective discussion on the subject, following are my points on Al-Qaeda:

- According to Eric Margolis, who is perhaps the most experienced Western journalist on Afghanistan, Al-Qaeda was originally just a small group of OBL`s bodygaurds. Eric participated in the first Afghan war, against the Soviet. So he knows the area well.

OBL was brought into the Afghan War, to boost the moral of the fighters. It was an indication that a rich Saudi was willing to fight the Jihad in Afghanistan. That war was coordianted by Gen Hamid Gul, from the Pakistani side (and Gen Rahman), alongwith the CIA leadership and operatives, with Saudi money and American arms. Hamid Gul has given detailed interviews on how OBL was brought it. Zbengnew Brehzensky etc. were invovled also, in setting up this whole Mujahideen offensive. Please read his interviews......

Once the Soviets were gone, OBL and Co. became the Arab-Afghans. To make a long story short, they eventually turned against all their controllers, one by one. They turned against the USA. They turned against Saudi Arabia. And they turned against Pakistan, now.......

There agenda started out as follows: To get the USA out of Saudi Arabia. During this time, the started getting a huge amount of press. In my opinion, due to that press, they have now grown into an idea of sorts. More than the original group, i.e. they have become an organization with no one head. Anyone who wants to fight the USA etc. declares his organization one head of Al-Qaeda.

Otherwise, I don`t see how one guy sitting in Afghanistan, where one can barely send an email, could co-ordinate such a large operation, across the world, including bombings of WTC to UK etc. It has to be a consortium of various organizations......

The original Al-Qaeda was pretty much on the run in Afghanistan. Because they did not have a country available as a sanctuary. However, the Iraq war seems to have changed that. Now they have another country available, right next to Saudi Arabia. And some of their leadership seems to have settled there. Along with, perhaps, the leaderships of the various consortium parties.....

The number of recruits available seems to have increased dramatically also. Iraq, like Western Europe had also never had a suicide bombing in its history, till the Iraq War. Now it has had over 400 in two years, or so. Interestingly Saddam and OBL never saw eye to eye.

Now the Al-Qaeda agenda seems to be two-fold:

- Get the USA/UK out of Iraq. This agenda is similar to the agenda of the nationalist parties of Iraq also (Al-Qaeda being a foreign group in Iraq). Over 90% of Iraqis, in a US survey, consider Iraq occupied....

- The second agenda seems to be to create a strong division between USA and as much of the Muslim world, as possible, i.e us vs. them. This will allow Al-Qaeda (or the consortium Al-Qaeda) the ability to move easily between Muslim countries.

The best way for it to do so is to create a constant state of violence, i.e. bomb USA, after which USA bombs some country. After which Al-Qaeda bombs USA again. So on and so forth. It seems to be succeeding in this.......And I think much of its success has been due to the Iraq invasion.........

I am not sure where the original agenda of getting the USA out of Saudi Arabia etc. sits. I think since it has grown into a multi-headed organization, a lot of groups, wtih different agendas, may have joined in. For example, its no. 2 Zawahari has (had) an agenda of toppling the Egyptian govt. Zaraqawi is Jordanian, and may have something tied to Israel-Palestine. While the leadership of Al-Qaeda in Pakistan was Arab, it has local partners. And there agenda is to topple Musharraf by killing him. etc.

I think the USA should have kept the situation limited to Afghanistan. It would have been much easier to contain Al-Qaeda there. I think the USA made a strategic error, because policies, other than Al-Qaeda got entangled with GWOT..........

Robert Pape is right on the mark, however, when he says all these organizations have political agendas. They are different from, lets say, the Columbine killers, who had no agenda. Perhaps more like Timothy McVeigh, who did have some kind of an agenda. This is as true for IRA, Tamil Tigers and Mukti Bahani as it is for Al-Qaeda. The legitimacy or illegitimacy of the political agenda differs, in each case. For example, the Iraqi citizen resistance parties` nationalist agenda of getting UK/USA out of Iraq is legitimate, in my opinion. They are trying to get rid of an occupation. However, Al-Qaeda`s agenda of even being in Iraq, is illegtimate, in my opinion. Since they are trying to destabilize Iraq. As is their agenda of killing Musharraf...........

Would be interested in your comments, assuming you are willing to discuss the issue objectively, in a mature manner, without abuse etc.......If you are unable to discuss it in that manner, then kindly do not bother to answer.........

#338 by ana on July 14, 2005 11:45am PT


check your mail...

Tahmed Pasha Effendi #323,
Hosh Gildiniz!

Yes, the Chinese were in Rio celebrating the year of the mink long before the Samba dancers arrived. While reading about the Spanish ``explorers`` returning from the Americas you may want to read about Amirl Al Bahr Kapitan Barbarossa. This Ottoman admiral, of Albanian origin, used to wait for Spanish ships laden with Inca and Aztec gold and make their load lighter. I visited the Kapitan Pasha`s tomb near Taksim on the road to Dohlmabache. His tomb is right in the middle of a traffic island.
Great stuff.
Take care. Have a nice evening.
Salim

aquaris #336

`` FACT: Suicide terrorism is not primarily a product of Islamic fundamentalism.

FACT: The world’s leading practitioners of suicide terrorism are the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka–a secular, Marxist-Leninist group drawn from Hindu families.

FACT: Ninety-five percent of suicide terrorist attacks occur as part of coherent campaigns organized by large militant organizations with significant public support.

FACT: Every suicide terrorist campaign has had a clear goal that is secular and political: to compel a modern democracy to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland.

FACT: Al-Qaeda fits the above pattern. Although Saudi Arabia is not under American military occupation per se, one major objective of al-Qaeda is the expulsion of U.S. troops from the Persian Gulf region, and as a result there have been repeated attacks by terrorists loyal to Osama bin Laden against American troops in Saudi Arabia and the region as a whole.

FACT: Despite their rhetoric, democracies–including the United States–have routinely made concessions to suicide terrorists. Suicide terrorism is on the rise because terrorists have learned that it’s effective. ``

There is a huge difference between Al Qaida and Hamas/Hezbollah/LTTE.

The LTTE confines it attacks to Sri Lanka. The killing of Rajiv Gandhi was an exception to the rule. There was a suicide attack on Colombo airport in which dozens of Sri lankans died. There were more than 1000 European tourists at the airport. Not one was hurt. The LTTE has a military wing that wages guerrila war against the Sri Lankan army. They have a political wing that talks to the Sri Lankan politicians.

Apart from firing a few rockets into Israel Hezbollah confines their actions to Lebanonese soil. The bomb attack on the Jewish cultural center in Argentina might be an exception, They have a paramilitary force that controls territorry. They have a political wing that participates in Lebanonese politics.

Hamas is somewhere in between LTTE/Hezbollah and Al Qaida. They have an irrational goal which is destruction of Israel.

Al Qaida is completely irrational entity. It beats me how sitting in Afghanistan one can overthrow the Saudi monarchy. They want to expel Americans from Saudi Arabia in particular and Arab world in general. But they have no trouble hiding in Pakistan which has an elite that would sell their mothers to the Americans for a few dollars. What makes the Al Qaida think that USA cannot seize the Saudi oilfields in the event the Saudi monarchy is overthrown. The entire world economy might be dependent on an American move.

`` In this wide-ranging analysis, Professor Pape offers the essential tools to forecast when some groups are likely to resort to suicide terrorism and when they are not. He also provides the first comprehensive demographic profile of modern suicide terrorist attackers. With data from more than 460 such attackers–including the names of 333–we now know that these individuals are not mainly poor, desperate criminals or uneducated religious fanatics but are often well-educated, middle-class political activists. ``

I knew that from the profiles of the Sep-11 hijackers.

`` Professor Pape answers these questions with analysis grounded in fact, not politics, and recommends concrete ways for today’s states to fight and prevent terrorist attacks. Military options may disrupt terrorist operations in the short term, but a lasting solution to suicide terrorism will require a comprehensive, long-term approach–one that abandons visions of empire and relies on a combined strategy of vigorous homeland security, nation building in troubled states, and greater energy independence.``

I do not disagree here

Aquaris #336: Robert Pape`s research is very thorough. I have used his research and similar material to provide much of my analyses and solutions to this problem, on this site. Unfortunately, without too much success.

Though I assume and hope that Tony Blair must be looking at such research.....

Such research and ideas have little traction here, on this site. I think there is too much of a desire, here, to prove political points - international, domestic, and personal - rather than carrying out a research-based discussion on the subject, i.e. Hindus and bad, Pakistanis are bad, Muslims are bad or great, Americans are bad or great, maulvis are the problem, brits are the problem etc. Rather than figuring out a solution to the problem.

I wish more people would, at least, look at research. For anyone who is interested, this paper is on the Cornell University website, and was presented by University of Chicago.

http://www.comm.cornell.edu/als481/readings/the%20logic%20of%20suicide%20terrorism.pdf

``The world’s leading practitioners of suicide terrorism are the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka–a secular, Marxist-Leninist group drawn from Hindu families.``

This paper covers the suicide attacks uptil and including Sep 11. Up til then, 187 such attacks had been carried out. Out of which Tamil Tigers had the largest number. However, in the Iraq war 420+ suicide attacks have been carried out. So one of the many organizations, in Iraq, carrying out these attacks has the highest number now.

arjuna:

this comes as a not so odd request, but could you email me at azadkaTputli@gmail.com? will understand if you don`t. . .

thanks! :)

#336 by aquaris on July 14, 2005 11:22am PT

Ok so you read Pat buchanan....

FACT: Nobody gives a pakis rear...

The bombers are still terrorists....Brits of Pakistani origin, some of whom became terrorists after a trip to Pakistan....