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London’s Hour of Reckoning

Ozer Khalid July 8, 2005

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#481 Posted by dost_mittar on July 20, 2005 7:04:37 am
ferozk:

I think that you can see the difference between the American and British approach. You wouldn`t hear any Briton talking about bombing Mecca. Britain, I think, is following the Singapore model where only approved khutbas can be used. Another report that I read/heard was that Britain wants mosques to use English as a language of communication. This would probably mean that English translations would have to be provided along with original verses. I am certain that ``discussion papers`` have outlined several options and it would be interesting to see how they unfold. One wonders how far they are willing to push. After all, they started their own church to assert their freedom from Pope. And then there is always the Chinese model. If the British succeed in breaking the linkage between Islam and Ummah, they would render great service to Islam as well as Muslims.

At the same time, the West has to realize that the linkages exist. Attack and occupation of Iraq may not have brought on Islamic militancy, but it would be foolish to claim that it did not exacerbate it.
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#480 Posted by ferozk on July 19, 2005 11:19:55 pm
Re: # 477

Dost, it seems this is the new policy. A few days back, there was a poll that showed a slight decline in the numbers and a lessening of support for Osama bin Ladin and the Muslim support for terrorism. The message on ending the glorification seems to be working and now, come the real reforms. Britain is already politically reforming the message of the imams in the mosques and then, you will see some institutional changes in the politics of Islam.

Dost, just follow your professional instincts, and given your background, this seems to be a textbook British civil service endeavor. :) Some is pulling all the right strings. :)

The recently released ``findings`` on linkages was the smoking gun, because it is a common bureaucratic practice to say such things to prevent follow up attacks or ``copy cat`` attacks - suggesting to them ``their message`` is heard, while the there is debate going on this issue, the real policies are passed as a subtext to the artificially created crisis in the government.

Look, where the focus is? Mosques. This seems to be an administrative approach to deal with the problem. :)

Ciao
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#479 Posted by rsridhar on July 19, 2005 6:51:11 pm
re:#472 by Ajeya
YOu say ``The point I was trying to make is that the west is FAR LESS tolerant than we Hindus have been over the hundreds of years. Just 52 people killed – happens in India every week. And see the media reaction in the West. And the reaction from the politicians. Contrast that with the reaction in India after 300 people got killed in Bombay, let alone the dozen or so people butchered in Kashmir every other day...``
India is a soft state and does not defend its interests as ably as the West does. Hundreds of poor innocent people get killed in India for one reason or the other, still India hardly reacts. It is as if it does not value human life, especially the lives of poor people. I know that GOI reacted with alacrity when extremists kidnapped some high profile govt officials or their relatives (eg daughter of Mufti Sayeed many years ago). Even in such situations, it gave in to the terrorist demands rather than react with force against the terrorists.
Sridhar
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#478 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 19, 2005 2:51:35 pm
Ajeya:
whatever the stuff you posted, if it is true that a US Senator has made the comment about radioactivating the grand mosque of Mecca then indeed there might be some truth to this kind of reasoning going on in the beltway.
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#477 Posted by dost_mittar on July 19, 2005 11:51:02 am
ferozk:

You are right on the money. Bush seems to have given an ultimatum to the moderates: Reform from within, if you don`t want it imposed from without.
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#476 Posted by arjun_m on July 19, 2005 11:09:07 am
#472 by Ajeya on July 19, 2005 8:45am PT


Look at the following WorldNetDaily poll:


A web poll isn`t scientific....Heck, a worldnutdaily scientific poll wouldn`t be scientific....
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#475 Posted by Mike_Hunt on July 19, 2005 10:33:15 am
By nature, Pakis and Muslims are a self-destructive lot in general. They tend to take extremist positions and then have to kill or die or both as a result of their absurd choices - partition, relations with Jews in Palestine, Kashmir issue, East Pak/BD fiasco, WWI (Turkish Jihad against British/French and Arab Jihad in support of British/French), permanent civil wars in Afghanistan, 9/11 attack, support of AlKayda by Tally Ban, destruction of Tally Ban, and the list goes on.
Salim
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#474 Posted by ferozk on July 19, 2005 10:00:39 am
Re: # 472

Ajeya, thanks for the reply.

The idea is not to control moderation. It is to make it an acceptable part of mainstream Islam, which pushes the militancy to the fringes, where it can be defeated. The first step is to stop the political glorification, which is associated with Islamic militancy. Britain is already passing laws to this effect and in a few years, you will see the results. :)

Ciao
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#473 Posted by Mike_Hunt on July 19, 2005 8:50:00 am
#470, Ajeya {``Has U.S. threatened to vaporize Mecca?``}
Only if you include Riyadh as well. :)
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#472 Posted by ajeya on July 19, 2005 8:45:25 am
Re: #471 by ferozek

Feroze,

The point I was trying to make is that the west is FAR LESS tolerant than we Hindus have been over the hundreds of years. Just 52 people killed – happens in India every week. And see the media reaction in the West. And the reaction from the politicians. Contrast that with the reaction in India after 300 people got killed in Bombay, let alone the dozen or so people butchered in Kashmir every other day. My post is more targeted at despicable elements like tahmed32 who lose no time in ingratiating themeselves with the west, while trying to bash India at every other opportunity. They KNOW, that if the terrorists had been killing the British or the Americans regularly for about a month, let alone for 50 years as in India, they would be thrown out by the scruff of their neck, but they will keep trying to put India down any chance they get. They KNOW, that the rights accorded them by the Indian governement, like having their own Personal Law Board etc, would be impossible in any western country, but they derive a lot of satisfaction from showing India in a bad light to the west.

It would give me a tremendous amount of satisfaction to see tahmed32 types booted out from the countries where they have been licking “firangi” boots. Or thrown in jail. And then forced to return to Pakistan.

My problem with the whole changing Islam thing is that you cannot control moderation, and I don’t think this moderation thing is going to work. Like communism, it will always spawn its terrorists. There would be decent types like yourself, but there would always be the potential of a small fragment of orthodox Islamists like tahmed32 who would resist any changes to the original beautiful words of peace, let alone rewriting history books about the good Mohammed’s exploits – sexual or otherwise.

ALL talk shows on the radio in the USA are talking about only one thing, Islamic terrorists. A lot of people are calling in and talking about nuking this and nuking that. For example, in the following article, senator Tancredo talks about nuking Mecca. If a senator says it, you can imagine what the general population thinks.

Look at the following WorldNetDaily poll:

What would you think of threatening to nuke Mecca if terror attack made on U.S.?

The threat should include lacing the bomb with pig`s blood 43.79% (3670)
The Islamist mentality is so extreme, only a threat of this magnitude is likely to be effective 39.74% (3331)
It would be scary but perhaps necessary 4.15% (348)
The U.S. would never make such a threat 3.62% (303)
The U.S. might make such a threat, but it would never carry it out 2.10% (176)
It would be immoral 1.81% (152)
It would make the U.S. the worst terrorist nation in history 1.69% (142)
It would be an obscene over-reaction 1.42% (119)
Other 1.13% (95)
It would be overkill 0.54% (45)

TOTAL VOTES: 8381

Look at the following article:

Tom Tancredo`s gaffe on bombing Mecca.

Posted on 07/18/2005 8:15:32 PM PDT by Valin

Many people have been burning up the phone lines to the show today, and firing off e-mails, about a radio interview Tom Tancredo did yesterday with WFLA host Pat Campbell.
One of the main complaints made against Hugh today has been that Tancredo`s comments were not made in context. Here`s a link to WFLA`s site, where the audio from the original interview is posted. Listen for yourself.

Here`s the text of what Pat Campbell asked him, and what he said:

PC: Now here`s the other thing, too, with the possibility of an attack. I had Juval Aviv on the program last Friday. He`s a former Israeli counter terrorism expert. He`s claiming that an attack on U.S. soil is imminent, like the kind we saw in London, within the next 90 days. And he said it`s not just going to be one city like New York or just major areas, but probably six, seven, eight cities, some of them right in the heartland. Worse case scenario, if they do have these nukes inside the borders, and they were to use something like that, what would our response be?

TT: What would be the response...um...You know, there are things that you could threaten to do before something like that happens, and then you may have to do afterwards, that are quite draconian.

PC: Such as?

TT: Well, what if you said something like if this happens in the United States, and we determine it is the result of extremist, fundamentalist Muslims, you know, you could take out their Holy sites.

PC: You`re talking about bombing Mecca.

TT: Yeah. I mean, what if you said, what if you said that this is the...we recognize that this is the ultimate threat to the United States. Therefore, this is the ultimate threat...this is the ultimate response. I mean, I don`t know. I`m just throwing out there some ideas, because it seems to me at this point in time, or at that point in time, you would be talking about taking the most draconian measures you could possibly imagine. And...because other than that, all you could do is, once again, tighten up internally.

I`m all for a swift and draconian response if an attack on our cities happens. But Mecca isn`t and shouldn`t be the target. It ought to be Damascas, or Riyadh, or somewhere else that`s a strategic target worthy of a response. But vaporizing the religious center of a billion people ain`t the way to win the war on terror.



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#471 Posted by ferozk on July 19, 2005 1:53:04 am
Re: # 470

Ajeya, there is another explanation also, which suggests that there is a difference of opinion between Osama bin Ladin and Al Zawari (sp). Bin Ladin wants to attack the west, but Al Zawari is against the idea. According to Al Zawari, emphasis should be placed on ``swing states`` like Pakistan, Iraq and Algeria, where the Islamists are in equal power and are competing to dominate those countries.

There is a struggle, inside Al-Qaeda, over its operational long term aims. This might be another reason for a lack of an attack in the United States. Given the mindsets of these people, the destruction of Mecca, would be an immense dose of instant legitimacy to their struggle and hence, it would seem improbable that the American threat to Mecca is holding Al-Qaeda from attacking the United States.

In the last year or so, the American approach towards the problem is shifting its focus. At first, the idea was to get a military win, but now the United States is gearing up for a long, drawn out struggle. A close analysis of the comments in the specialized American journals, would suggest that the United States is using the idea of containment; first contain the violence, but at the same time, probe deeper into the political and religious ideology behind such acts. It would seem that the war has mutated from a military confrontation into a political one, whereby the idea is now to discredit the political believes, which are sustaining such acts.

It would seem that after London, and the British government`s response to it, there is now a well orhrestrated attempt to influence the manner in, which Islam is preached. The idea seems to be remove the inflamed rhetoric at its source by picking the imams through a process of certification and qualification, whose acceptance will be an imam who preaches inclusion and not exclusion in the sermons.

Taken one step further, the idea seems to be to intiate a sense of reform in Islam, within the western Muslim communities, and then seek to establish this newly reformed and moderated Islam, as the mainstream Islamic opinion.

Ciao

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#470 Posted by ajeya on July 18, 2005 8:39:19 pm
Re: #463 by tahmed32

[you write ``I think India treats its minorities much better than most countries.`` I think you are being too smug here. In other countries national leaders almost invariably seek to promote harmony between different communities in the country. In India, you national leaders like Advani have stoked trouble between communities by LEADING attacks on mosques]


Bush is no Advani.

:-)


Has U.S. threatened to vaporize Mecca?

Intelligence expert says nuke option is reason bin Laden has been quiet



Posted: January 7, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
Why hasn`t Osama bin Laden`s terror network executed an attack on U.S. soil since 9-11?
Simple, says Dr. Jack Wheeler, creator of an acclaimed intelligence website dubbed ``the oasis for rational conservatives``: The U.S. has threatened to nuke the Muslim holy city of Mecca should the terror leader strike America again.

On his website, To the Point, Wheeler explains how the Bush administration has identified the potential of wiping Mecca off the map as bin Laden`s ultimate point of vulnerability – the Damoclean Sword hanging over his head.

``Israel … recognizes that the Aswan Dam is Egypt`s Damoclean Sword,`` writes Wheeler. ``There is no possibility whatever of Egypt`s winning a war with Israel, for if Aswan is blown, all of inhabited Egypt is under 20 feet of water. Once the Israelis made this clear to the Egyptians, the possibility of any future Egyptian attack on Israel like that of 1948, 1967, and 1972 is gone.``

Wheeler says talk of bin Laden`s Damoclean Sword has infiltrated the Beltway.
Writes Wheeler in his members-only column: ``There has been a rumor floating in the Washington ether for some time now that George Bush has figured out what Sword of Damocles is suspended over Osama bin Laden`s head. It`s whispered among Capitol Hill staffers on the intel and armed services committees; White House NSC (National Security Council) members clam up tight if you begin to hint at it; and State Department neo-cons love to give their liberal counterparts cardiac arrhythmia by elliptically conversing about it in their presence.

``The whispers and hints and ellipses are getting louder now because the rumor explains the inexplicable: Why hasn`t there been a repeat of 9-11? How can it be that after this unimaginable tragedy and Osama`s constant threats of another, we have gone over three years without a single terrorist attack on American soil?``
Available only to subscribers of To the Point, Wheeler ends his column by explaining the effectiveness of the Mecca threat.

``Completely obliterating the terrorists` holiest of holies, rendering what is for them the world`s most sacred spot a radioactive hole in the ground is retribution of biblical proportions – and those are the only proportions that will do the job.

``Osama would have laughed off such a threat, given his view that Americans are wussies who cut and run after a few losses, such as Lebanon in 1983 and Somalia in 1993. Part of Bush`s rationale for invading Afghanistan and Iraq – obviously never expressed publicly – was to convince Osama that his threat to nuke Mecca was real. Osama hates America just as much as ever, but he is laughing no more.``

Wheeler says bin Laden is ``playing poker with a Texas cowboy holding the nuclear aces,`` so there`s nothing al-Qaida could do that could come remotely close to risking obliterating Mecca.

Writes Wheeler: ``So far, Osama has decided not to see if GW is bluffing. Smart move.``



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#469 Posted by ajeya on July 18, 2005 6:58:39 pm

It’s happening.

Just like I said it would. The world is slowly realizing what we Indians have been suffering from for a thousand years.

This cancer is already in their midst, and the westerners are slowly beginning to feel it.
And Westerners are not like Hindus. They’ll take quick action.

Just keep watching.

The following was the HEADLINE STORY of the Wall Street Journal, July 11th:

As Muslims call Europe home, isolation takes root

First in a series


Monday, July 11, 2005

By Ian Johnson and John Carreyrou, The Wall Street Journal


TORCY, France -- Mourad Amriou slowly warmed up the crowd inside a small mosque on the outskirts of Paris, giving the congregation a pep talk after the Friday evening prayer.
``Just nearby here are Fatimas and Mohammeds who are drinking,`` said the beefy 26-year-old former rapper, using generic names for Muslim women and men. ``Can you believe it? Just around the corner, going to nightclubs. Do you accept it?``

There were murmurs of disapproval as he continued. Life, he said, should center on mosques. Not just for prayer, but for everything from language classes for children to social life. Otherwise, he said, Muslims will become indistinguishable from their French neighbors. ``Society has to be based on Islam,`` he told the gathering.

In France and across Europe, messages like this are finding a broad audience. Compared to the deadly subway and bus bombings that rocked London last week, they may sound mild. There is no call for jihad or violence and the message is delivered by local citizens, not outside agitators. Yet the message is radical: People who are different are held in contempt. Mingling with mainstream society is frowned upon. Society should be founded on one religion: Islam. Magnified by the power of demographics, messages like Mr. Amriou`s are presenting a profound challenge to Europe`s secular democracies.

Europe is undergoing a massive population shift -- some say the largest in more than a millennium -- as Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa cross the Mediterranean in search of work and a better life. The Muslim population of Europe is increasing dramatically; in countries like France, it is already about six million, or 10 percent of the total, and could easily double in percentage terms in the coming 20 years.

Declining birthrates mean that Europe needs these immigrants to stay vibrant. And indeed, many of them have integrated successfully, gaining education, wealth and prestige. Yet across the continent, some of Europe`s Muslims are drifting off into separate troubled societies. In some European cities, nearly half of Muslim youths drop out of high school and unemployment rates are high. Racism is on the rise, helping to drive Muslims back into their communities. The situation was crystallized in a report last year by the French domestic intelligence agency, which surveyed 630 communities with a heavy concentration of Muslim migrants. Half of them, the report said, are ``ghettoized`` along religious lines.
In Paris, this parallel society is centered in a string of suburbs along the capital`s northern and eastern fringes. There, amid housing projects slapped up a generation ago to accommodate a booming immigrant population, the signs of fundamentalist Islam are on the rise. Women who don`t wear headscarves are harassed. People who consume food or beverages during the month of fasting, Ramadan, are publicly criticized. And some families refuse to let women be treated by male doctors or nurses.

This development is a paradox to many sociologists, who figured that such behavior was confined to newcomers who brought it with them. With time, the theory went, immigrants would moderate their views. Instead, it is Europe`s second- and third-generation Muslims who are the most radical.

``Often young Muslims in the West are unmoored from their traditional beliefs and ripe for recruitment by radicals,`` says Olivier Roy, a leading expert on political Islam and an adviser to the French government.

Those recruiters sometimes come in the form of jihadist preachers who encourage acts of terrorism like Thursday`s bombings in London, which killed at least 49 people and wounded 700. While police haven`t identified any suspects yet, their investigation is focusing on European-based Islamic extremists. A network of terrorists drawn from the fringes of Europe`s Muslims staged spectacular attacks in Madrid and the murder of a Dutch filmmaker last year. Four of the lead actors in the Sept. 11 attacks on the U.S. became drawn to terrorism in one of Germany`s radical Muslim communities.

Laying the groundwork for such radicalization is the seductive idea of political Islam, which preaches a Utopian view of society where all citizens are part of a just and fair ``umma,`` or community of Muslims. In this world, the separation of religion and politics is heretical, and Europe`s Muslims -- now representing between 5 percent and 10 percent of the continent`s population -- need to be walled off from Western culture.

Such views are popularized by the Muslim Brotherhood, a Cairo-based organization that is the progenitor of many major radical Islamic groups. In the 1950s and 1960s, the Brotherhood established a beachhead in Europe after it was banned in many Middle Eastern countries. Although its formal structures have weakened, its matrix of ideology has taken hold in Europe, strengthened by a network of Brotherhood-inspired organizations.
In France, the organization the Brotherhood loosely spawned is called the Union of French Islamic Organizations, or UOIF as it is known by its French acronym. Mr. Amriou is one of the UOIF`s thousands of unpaid activists. In recent years, the UOIF has become one of France`s most powerful Muslim organizations, but also its most controversial because of the views it spreads. The UOIF says it is a moderate group and denies any links to Islamist ideology.

But many observers remain unconvinced. Dounia Bouzar, a prominent French Muslim social scientist, initially supported groups like the UOIF. In a book she wrote in 2001, she argued that they are valuable mediators between mainstream society and Muslim migrants. Many perform social services, such as after-school tutoring, day care or women`s activities. With time, they would help Muslims integrate, she argued.

After watching the developments of the past few years, however, Ms. Bouzar has changed her view. Instead of integrating Muslims, this all-embracing form of Islam builds a cocoon in which people have little contact with mainstream society, she says. Education is often stunted and the chance of professional success limited, she says.

``It`s a vision of society that separates people into two camps, Islamic and non-Islamic,`` says Ms. Bouzar. ``They have a need to Islamicize everything.``
In many parts of the world, the word ``suburb`` conjures a vision of single-family homes with yards -- a mixture of country and city where the better-off live and commute to the city to work or shop. In France, the equivalent word ``banlieue`` is synonymous with poorly maintained housing projects filled with immigrants or the poor. To the north and east of Paris are a string of these banlieues, such as Aubervilliers, Saint-Denis, La Courneuve, Stains and Torcy. They lie just outside a vast ring road, the aptly named ``peripherique,`` which slices the prosperous capital off from its impoverished neighbors.

Mr. Amriou quips that he ``immigrated to France at the local maternity ward.`` He grew up in a housing complex in La Courneuve nicknamed ``the city of four thousand`` for the number of units in it. It was a slum upon completion. Now, 40 years later, it is being torn down. It was recently in the news after an 11-year-old boy was killed there by a stray bullet.
Mr. Amriou`s father was initially happy to get a flat in the complex. He had moved to France from Algeria in the 1960s to take a job in construction. He brought over his wife and soon had a large family to house. Mr. Amriou was born in 1977, the youngest of 10 children. The parents encouraged their children to go to school and to get jobs. But Mr. Amriou`s father was busy all day long, working at a job where he had little chance for promotion. Mr. Amriou says he became dismissive of his father`s efforts to fit in and boasts that he ``couldn`t control me anymore.``

Mr. Amriou felt that French society was against him. His father`s generation came to Europe to fill low-skilled jobs. There was no effort at integration -- for example, the immigrants didn`t receive language classes -- because the host governments expected them to return home one day. But work was plentiful and many migrants accomplished their main goal: saving money and sending it back home. Mr. Amriou wasn`t so lucky. By the time he came of age in the early 1990s, low-skilled jobs had migrated to the developing world. Unemployment in the banlieues skyrocketed and now in many regions is over 20 percent. Despite his high-school diploma, he couldn`t get a job. He says he went to prison twice for drug possession.

One August night in 1999, he says he was hanging out with friends on a square, drinking beer and smoking marijuana. A man on a bike approached. He was a member of the Tabligh, a Muslim sect that originated in 1920s India and has spread around the world, preaching strict adherence to Islam but also a disengagement from politics or society. Mr. Amriou`s friends ran away from the missionary, but Mr. Amriou decided to stay put.
The older man sat down and made small talk. The stars were bright that night, Mr. Amriou says, and he mentioned that he liked astronomy. ``He said to me: `You like creation, but did you wonder about the creator?` I had to admit I hadn`t thought of that.``

The two men talked until dawn. They met day after day for a week. By the second week, Mr. Amriou was, as he puts it, ``re-Islamicized.`` He got rid of his jeans and T-shirts and started wearing the white gown and skullcap that he wears today. He cut his hair but let his beard grow thick and long. He quit smoking, drinking and started praying five times a day.
After his re-conversion, Mr. Amriou quickly gravitated to mosques run by the UOIF. There he shed the apolitical beliefs of the Tabligh and began to learn about current events and Islam`s role in them. The key message is that everything in life, including politics, has a religious dimension. The separation of church and state, Mr. Amriou says, is ``un-Islamic.``
Mr. Amriou`s rebirth was part of a religious awakening that started in the late 1980s and spread quickly among Europe`s Muslims. A turning point was 1989. The Berlin Wall fell, ending the Cold War -- an event that many Muslims saw as due in part to the actions of Islamic holy warriors, the mujahedeen, who through the 1980s had fought the Soviet Union to a standstill in Afghanistan. That was also the year Iran`s paramount leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, issued a religious opinion, or fatwa, calling for the death of the British writer Salman Rushdie, whose novel ``The Satanic Verses`` in part criticized and satirized Islam. Fatwas are traditionally only valid in the Islamic world, so Khomeini`s fatwa implied something profound: Europe was part of the Islamic world. It was a revolutionary change that now is accepted by many Islamic theologians and thinkers.

The trend accelerated in the 1990s with the advent of the Internet, allowing young people to plug into a growing pan-Islamic movement that was inspired by orthodox Muslim groups, such as the Muslim Brotherhood, and backed by wealthy donors in Saudi Arabia and other oil-rich states. Girls began to wear headscarves and boys collected audio and videotapes of preachers who advocated a stripped-down form of Islam that emphasized the culture`s past glories and a handful of simple religious regulations.

The effect on Paris`s banlieues was dramatic. People living and working there recount how personal freedoms were restricted as the new ideology took hold.

Nacera, a 27-year-old clerk living in Paris who asked that her last name not be used for fear of harassment, recalls that era. Like many Muslim children, she attended a mosque to study the Quran. She liked learning classical Arabic and counts the time there as one of the most memorable of her childhood.

By the time she was a teenager, however, things began to change in her banlieue of Stains. As the Muslim community became more established, mosques began to pop up. Many were normal places of prayer, but others offered an agenda on how to behave. Her family`s mosque, frequented by Mr. Amriou, fell into the latter category.
``It used to be that at weddings people would mix and dance,`` she says. ``Then we weren`t allowed to mingle. It was an accumulation of little things.``

The religious fervor hit her youngest sister, who started wearing a veil. She quickly gave up school and married. Her brothers began to collect religious videos and books by Middle Eastern religious authorities on how to be a good Muslim.

After repeated requests by stalwarts at the local mosque and pressure at home, Nacera started wearing a veil and was urged to marry and have children. But she was a few years older than her sisters and had already started to work. About two years ago, she realized she wanted a career. To do so, she says, she had to break with her family.
``I felt I needed my own territory,`` says Nacera. She left Stains for a new home in the south of Paris. ``I didn`t want everything decided for me by the mosque.``
Others notice similar changes. Jocelyne Clarke, a teacher at a high school in Aubervilliers, says it is becoming harder to organize field trips and cultural outings with her students because Muslim boys and girls refuse to mix with the other sex. Some Muslim students have walked out of class during readings of Voltaire because the 18th-century author was scornful of religion in his writings, she says.

Two years ago, the city council of Aubervilliers gave in to Muslim associations` demands that it close off the municipal pool to men at certain times of the week so that Muslim women could bathe in private, in keeping with the Quran`s admonition that women dress and behave modestly. The city council also agreed to put up curtains over the pool`s big bay windows, which give onto the street.

In Saint-Denis, El Mostafa Ramsi says junior high-school students brought to tour the neighborhood`s famous basilica, where most of France`s kings are buried, have refused to enter the church on the grounds that it is ``an impure place.`` Mr. Ramsi, 46, who emigrated to France from Morocco when he was 20 and now serves as the local representative of a center-left political party, says parents of children who attend the local elementary school have asked for translations of parent-teacher meetings in Arabic. ``It shows that they couldn`t care less about integrating,`` he says. ``They don`t even make the effort of learning French.``

Nadia Amiri, a 45-year-old Algerian immigrant who works in the central office of France`s state-run hospital association, says the divisions go beyond schools. Hospitals are under pressure not to allow men and women into the same wards -- even as visitors. If carried out, that would require separate Muslim hospitals, she says. Doctors are also increasingly asked by fathers to issue their daughters virginity certificates.

The UOIF is an amalgamation of several Islamist groups with roots in the Muslim Brotherhood`s initial European toeholds of Munich and Switzerland. The group came to prominence in 1989 when a major event took place in France: Two girls were ejected from school for wearing a headscarf. The UOIF began to organize protests and quickly established itself as the force to be reckoned with in the banlieues. Until then, France`s Muslim organizations were divided along national lines. The Grande Mosque of Paris, for example, is still openly financed by the Algerian government and its head is an Algerian civil servant.

The UOIF instead advocated an ``Islam de France`` that was also part of the growing pan-national Islam. The group receives extensive funding from Arab countries. Even today, UOIF officials say, one-quarter of its annual budget of 2.75 million euros, or $3.3 million, comes from donors abroad, especially Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait. But the UOIF projects a modern, global image, inviting speakers from around the world to its annual congress.

The UOIF joined other French Muslim groups in denouncing the London bombings last week. It said it wrote a letter to the British ambassador to France expressing ``its firmest condemnation of these odious and inhuman acts.``

Lhaj Thami Breze, the UOIF`s president, says the UOIF supports democratic society. If there is a conflict between Islamic law and French law, Mr. Breze says French law takes precedence. However, the UOIF encouraged Muslim schoolgirls to wear bandanas instead of headscarves last year to circumvent a new law banning overt signs of religious affiliation at public high schools. The UOIF opposes the law, arguing that it violates Muslim girls` freedom of choice.

``We`ve made a huge effort to adapt our Islam to France,`` says Mr. Breze. ``The people who still call us fundamentalist ... haven`t bothered to come see us in a while and don`t know how much we`ve changed. We`ve matured and come of age. We`ve reached respectability.``
Mr. Breze says the UOIF has made a formal break with the Muslim Brotherhood. He acknowledges that one of his predecessors in the 1980s was a member of the brotherhood but says the UOIF has had no links to the group since the 1990s. Yet, UOIF preachers and activists often cite Tariq Ramadan, the grandson of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna and son of Said Ramadan, the man who brought the brotherhood to Europe, as their theological role model. Though based in Geneva, the influential Mr. Ramadan has a home and office in Saint-Denis, not far from the UOIF`s headquarters in La Courneuve. Mr. Ramadan`s prolific writings are ubiquitous at the UOIF`s annual congress.

Two years ago, government officials drew up plans for an elected body called the French Council of the Muslim Faith to represent the country`s estimated six million Muslims. But they ran into a problem: who should vote? French citizens don`t register their religious affiliation, so there were no official lists of Muslims.

The solution: Mosques would elect the representatives, with bigger mosques given more votes. That helped the UOIF, which boasts many large mosques thanks to generous sponsors in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states. The result: the UOIF won control of 12 of the 25 regional councils that represent the central council across France, thrusting it into a position of power. That forced the French government to recognize the UOIF as one of its main points of contact in the Muslim community. In new elections last month, the UOIF didn`t fare as well as in 2003, mainly because other French Muslim groups copied its strategies to organize and mobilize their followers. The UOIF lost control of six of the 12 regional councils it had presided over. But it continues to wield significant influence and obtained the vice presidency of the central council.

French officials concede they are taking a calculated risk in dealing with the UOIF but say it`s part of a strategy to co-opt and soften the organization. Even though it might not represent the views of most Muslims, the UOIF is by far the best-organized of France`s Islamic organizations and has the most reach in France`s troubled ethnic neighborhoods.
``I never said the UOIF was for integration,`` says a senior official in the French Interior Ministry. ``But they accept the rules and they want to play the game.``

Inside UOIF mosques, the talk isn`t of integration, but of how to protect oneself from harmful French society. Activists like Mr. Amriou help keep the message simple: The mosque is safe; the outside world is dangerous.
One Friday evening, he stopped by the new mosque in Torcy. The head of the mosque is a Senegalese convert named Ibrahim who had met Mr. Amriou at a UOIF conference. The group holds frequent religious revival meetings, which are chances to make contacts and buy books and videos by well-known Islamist preachers. Ibrahim had invited Mr. Amriou here to help set the tone in the community.

Mr. Amriou`s visit was part of his daily routine. His life, as he likes to put it in English, is ``speed, speed, speed`` -- hurrying to work, to prayer and to a UOIF mosque to help out with organizational work or to hold a lecture. Married, he has no children and holds odd jobs like repairing computers and selling phone cards at a store. That leaves plenty of time for religion. He orbits Paris in his small Fiat, living in one banlieue, working in another, praying in a third and spending free time at the UOIF headquarters.

``I`m tres speed today,`` Mr. Amriou said as he unzipped a thick wool jacket that he`d worn over his gown against the cold. The prayer room was about two-thirds full with 90 men sitting cross-legged or kneeling. The few women who had come were in an adjoining office listening through the door. After settling into a director`s chair and adjusting the microphone, he launched into his pep talk.

After telling about how he was saved, he moved on to a broader point: the need to enforce orthodox Islam on all French citizens of the Muslim faith. After half an hour, he took a few questions and then mingled with the crowd. Over tea and sweets, Mr. Amriou did some damage control for the UOIF. A UOIF preacher had been publicly accused of anti-Semitism and some of the members were worried and wondered what to think. ``He said nothing unusual,`` Mr. Amriou said with a shrug. He clicked on his cellphone, bringing up a picture of a Palestinian boy allegedly killed by Israeli troops. He showed it to the men and they nodded in agreement, anger crossing their faces. The preacher`s questionable remarks were forgotten.

A few moments later, Mr. Amriou`s busy schedule caught up with him. He made a quick getaway from the mosque and hopped into his car for a drive home along the rim of Paris. Mr. Amriou used to try his hand at rap music and even cut a single. As he drove, he listened to Zacharia, a young boy he is mentoring who has learned most of the Quran by heart. Mr. Amriou taped him singing the Quran at his home and popped in a cassette.
Mr. Amriou drove by one of the prisons where he had been held. It was now nearly 11 p.m. and the traffic was light. Paris glowed on one side of the highway, while prison floodlights blazed on the other. Mr. Amriou turned up the volume.

``Listen,`` Mr. Amriou said. ``His singing is beautiful, but it is even better when you know the meaning of the Arabic.``

``This is my path,`` sang Zacharia. ``With sure knowledge I call on you to have faith in Allah, I and all my followers. Glory be to Allah! I am not among the idolaters.``

On the Outside

In France, foreign youths from predominantly Muslim countries have a particularly high rate of unemployment. Rates for ages 15-29:

Foreigners from North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa and Turkey 40 percent Foreigners (all nationalities) 26 percent French by birth 16 percent French by naturalization 15 percent

Note: Data are from 2002

Source: Advance excerpts from ``Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Challenges in Contemporary France





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#468 Posted by tahmed32 on July 18, 2005 4:11:23 pm
rsridhar #466 I think now we are basically on the same page!! Enjoy the mangoes. :-)
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#466 Posted by rsridhar on July 18, 2005 11:48:16 am
re:#463 by tahmed32
Thanks. I am enjoying the much needed respite from work. Yes, mangoes are good though the peak season has passed.
I never said that religious fundamentalism does not exist in India. I only said India treats its minorities much better than many other countries. In Bangladesh, hindu population is slowly decreasing due to systematic pogram unleashed on that community. You may read the amnesty report to know the truth:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/bgd-summary-eng
Pak too has problems with minorities and so does India.
It is true that under BJP, minorities (especially muslims) were targetted at least in Gujarat. With BJP biting dust in General elections, secularism is the buzz word in India today. Even Advani (who u quoted) is changing his tunes. It has become very clear that for any political party to survive, it has to shun fundamentalism and get on to the bandwagon of secularism.
Sridhar
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#465 Posted by southasian on July 18, 2005 9:02:45 am
Where were we? London?
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