London’s Hour of Reckoning

Re: # 296 rs
//...How did these terrorists manage to get the bombs into the country? or was it produced locally and if so, by whom? ...//

Produced locally - brits have found a bomb factory. By who? well, take a guess.

aslam #297 That was an interesting quote from Tony Blair you posted. Blair, and the british public in general, have come through with shining colors after this bombing. They have reacted in a calm, professional manner - identifying the culprits at short notice (thanks in part to the excellent public camera system in London), and remaining calm and united. The British Character truly shines through during this difficult time for that nation.

kaalchakra #302 Thanks for speaking out on my behalf. You have accurately presented my views. It is indeed important for ordinary people like you and me to stand together against those who seek to divide and spread hatreds. You may be interested in this article by Hoagland in the Washington Post today where he calls for a similar approach:

The true war: Within and For Islam, by Jim Hoagland

His concluding part of the article, which echoes two of Tony Blair`s 4 point program announced in the UK parliament, is: ``The continuing patriotism and tolerant nature of American Muslims need to be spotlighted more by Bush and given a leading voice in the U.S. effort to overcoming Islamic extremism abroad. That one step would help immediately to transform the ``war`` into a more sustainable struggle for common human values.``

These are the ``common human values`` that people in the west talk about that we (hindus, muslims, indians, pakistanis) need to also stress. This is the antidote to the primitive mindsets that prevail among too many indians as well as pakistanis - as is apparent from this board.

re: Ajeya # 292

Tahmed is one person who has for some time now admitted that Prophet Muhammad could be wrong in what he did (you know, just as we believe that people could be divinely inspired - prophets in other words - but can still make mistakes).

He has also become increasingly self-analytic, even self-critical. You will not find him offering apologies today, if he ever did (which I frankly do not recall). In fact, he takes a lead role in doing what we wish more people did - in countering internal extremists.

There are always differences of opinion on important matters. That`s a natural outcome of intelligent people thinking for themselves. But there are so few good people that I always, humbly I may add, request my friends to acknowledge and respect them. It`s ok to be critical, but let`s not lump very different kinds of people together.

****PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT****


Latest on the `war on terror`.The british PM says `extremists will be deported`.What if they`re born in britain but of pak descent ?.If i were pak, and in the UK, i would start packing.Every pak can be deemed to be a terrorist.We indians can offer to help you out by buying your properties at 50 pence on the pound.Better than nothing!!!.I try.

Re:Ajeya #299

``Number of Hindus dead in Kashmir alone at the hands of $onofabitch terrorists to date : approx 40,000 (figure quoted by US Congresswoman who visited India after 9/11)``

Actually we should count all hindus that have suffered at the hands of $onofabitch muslims for the past 1000 years. Partition itself led to 2-3 million dead. Over the past 1000 years, I would say at least 10-20 million hindus have died at the hands of muslims. We have suffered genocide in our own home for the past 1000 years.

I dont know why we do not launch our nukes as a first strike and finish Pakistan off once and for all. They will not be able to retaliate once we take out Islamabad and Lahore. Also no one in the world will support them anyway.

#297 by aslam644


[Tahmed
Blair’s message to british muslims.

“We were proud of your contribution to Britain before last Thursday. We remain proud of it today,Fanaticism is not a state of religion, but a state of mind and we will work with you to make the moderate and true voice of Islam heard as it should be.Together we will ensure that, though terrorists can kill, they will never destroy the way of life we share and we value and which we would defend with such strength of belief and conviction.``

Compare this with some of the venom Modi spouts ]


Number of Hindus dead in Kashmir alone at the hands of $onofabitch terrorists to date : approx 40,000 (figure quoted by US Congresswoman who visited India after 9/11)

Number of British killed at the hands of $onofabitch terrorists on 7/7 : approx 52


If the number in Britain reaches 40,000, Blair`s language will be far worse than Advani`s, you bloody $onofabitch piece of Islamic filth.

Ajeya and dharma,

Given what has happened in Ayodhya and London, India must immediately halt the so called ``peace`` talks with Pakistan. If India tries to be friendly with Pakistan, we run three grave risks. The first risk is the nightmare scenario of having ``soft`` borders where jihadis will pour into India and Kashmir and cause havoc. That will mean further loss of life and limb for our soldiers and civilians. Thanks to the ``peace`` talks we fenced the LOC. Now it is time to close down all contact with Pakistan.

Secondly soft borders gives an opportunity to the Indian Muslims to visit Pakistan more often and get intensive jihadi indoctrination. The Pakis living in Britain got into jihad after visiting Pakistan. Can you imagine if our 100 million muslims in India get a chance to visit Pakistan via the soft border and travel policies? Can you imagine dealing with that level of jihad in India? We must quarantine the muslims in India from any contact with Pakistanis if we have any hope for a peaceful existence. The Ayodhya attack must wake us against the real threat of LeT tying up with Indian muslims.

Thirdly friendly relations with Pakistan will lead to a loss of our reputation and image in the rest of the world. The west is becoming increasingly anti-muslim and anti-Pakistan. If we are friends with them, people will think that we support their jihadi policies. Our image will get polluted by them. Pakistan, of course, wants the opposite. When it is in trouble, as per the current situation after London, it tries to blend into a ``South Asian`` identity. South Asian, my foot!! We must not let them pull India into their mess as far as possible.

Re: # 285
Tahmed
Blair’s message to british muslims.

“We were proud of your contribution to Britain before last Thursday. We remain proud of it today,Fanaticism is not a state of religion, but a state of mind and we will work with you to make the moderate and true voice of Islam heard as it should be.Together we will ensure that, though terrorists can kill, they will never destroy the way of life we share and we value and which we would defend with such strength of belief and conviction.``

Compare this with some of the venom Modi spouts

re: the article
It is clear now that Pakistan is a ``jehadi nation``. Its attempts to export IT (Information Technology)failed miserably recently when a undersea cable broke down, plunging the BPO offices in darkness. Not so with the other kind of IT that Pak excels in viz International Terrorism. It is now well established that the bombings were by suicide bombers and that 2 of the 5 recently visited Pak and possibly trained in a ``jehadi camp``.
All this begs the question:
1. What the fukc is Mushy boy upto? Is he doing anything to put a stop to the jehadi camps? From the recent bombings in London, not by a long shot.
2. How did these terrorists manage to get the bombs into the country? or was it produced locally and if so, by whom?

FerozK was right when he said that Islam needs major changes from within but time may be running short. We may now see major deportations from UK of people of Pak origin on flimpsy grounds but Pakis brought it upon them
selves and there is nobody else to blame.
The other big question is: Is Islam really a religion of peace? we can all talk therory here but events that are unfolding only make it painfully clear that it is not.
Sridhar

Pakistan wakes up to the hatred within
(Filed: 14/07/2005)

Ahmed Rashid reports on the link between Lahore and Leeds that has flourished over two generations but may now have been hijacked by militant Islamic fundamentalists

For the past few days at dinner parties, bazaars and newspaper offices in Lahore there has only been one topic of conversation, the fear and expectancy that the London bombers would turn out to be Pakistani.

Most were convinced that that would be the case and when the truth came out they were immediately on their mobiles, spreading the news repeating: ``What did I tell you, I told you so, this will really be the last straw.``

Many were depressed at the thought of being dubbed a nation that could export a handful of terrorists along with T-shirts, Sufi music and mangoes.

Until Tuesday the fear of a Right-wing backlash against Pakistanis living in Britain had also dominated the headlines. That is because Pakistanis are deeply sensitive about their own, even though after 58 years they still cannot agree on the nature of their nation - Islamic fundamentalist or democratic.

Those who have lived in Bradford and Leeds for two generations still come home to marry, party, holiday and celebrate religious festivals such as Eid, or Ramadan, the month of fasting.

Flights to and from London are packed in the summer.

Youngsters in sneakers, the latest jeans and speaking English in broad Yorkshire accents can be heard in Lahore`s shopping malls during any holiday period.

However more conservative parents in Yorkshire take leave of absence for their teenage sons from their British schools and send them home to study for a couple of terms. They either join madrassas - Islamic schools - or secular schools, learning Urdu, the Koran and making friends.

Those boys who join madrassa boarding schools are often indoctrinated with fundamentalist views and return home to Yorkshire changed people - urging their sisters to cover their heads and their friends to pray regularly.

In the winter of 2002 Maulana Akram Awan, a fundamentalist religious leader and politician from Chakwal in central Punjab, set up camp outside Islamabad with thousands of followers. He threatened to march on the capital to force the military regime to enforce Islamic law.

Among those camping out in the fields with him were dozens of madrassa students from Yorkshire. The elite`s fear of a backlash against British Pakistanis is heightened by the fact that London is their second home, the favourite holiday destination to escape the summer heat, shop till they drop and still the best place to send their children to university. Now, during the summer sales, a visiting Pakistani can hardly walk down a street in Knightsbridge or Kensington without bumping into a Pakistani he knows from home.

On Tuesday night the first thought for many of them was how suspiciously they would be viewed when they showed their passports at Heathrow. But when they sit down to reflect as more emerges about the London bombers, they are likely to become even more depressed.

It is already clear that one or two of the bombers visited Pakistan recently, possibly to train with an extremist group.

For the past two decades a small number of militants have killed and maimed their fellow citizens in the name of Islam, various Islamic sects or self-created concepts of male honour. These killing fields in the name of Islam, abhorred by the majority of their fellow citizens, were then exported abroad where Pakistani militant groups supported fellow extremists in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia.

Pakistani extremists have been closely linked to the army which saw in them a cheap and non-attributable opportunity to keep India at bay, maintain the country`s Islamic influence abroad and undermine any chance of civilian democracy at home.

This ``military-mullah`` alliance is widely assumed to have been born in 1977 after the army coup that bought General Zia Ul Haq to power. However in a new book called Pakistan - between Mosque and Military, scholar-diplomat Hussain Haqqani shows how the alliance goes back as far as 1951.

Many Pakistanis hoped that September 11 2001 would give the army a chance to change its disastrous policies and end its alliance with the mullahs.

General Pervez Musharraf`s military regime could make peace with Afghanistan and India, crack down hard on militant groups and turn its back on extremism.

Gen Musharraf promised a policy of enlightened moderation but little has been done. Thousands of religious schools still spew out hate against non-Muslims and leaders of militant groups still wander the country giving sermons.

Gen Musharraf has squandered the lavish aid and support given to him by the US and Britain after September 11. Extremism continues to flourish and democracy is further away than ever.

This month the widely circulated magazine Herald reports that a dozen training camps for militants, which closed down after September 11, were revived in May with official blessing.

Last month several Pakistani-Americans arrested on terrorism charges in California, admitted to training in such camps. The London bombers were probably in touch with a local Pakistani group rather than al-Qa`eda.

Pakistanis are fed up with being in the eye of the storm and just want to lead a normal life. They want to see an end to violence at home and a bad image abroad. When that will happen is anybody`s guess.

Re: # 292
i know. for people like farzana, tahmed et al
gora=10 non indian muslims=100 indians
indians are scum of earth for them, their lives not worth living

Re: #65 by Ranjit

Ranjit,

Sorry, I overlooked your post.

And now it is too late to answer.

Re: #287 by dharma

I have not been visiting this site for long. So I had no idea what kind of reactions the Pakistanis/Muslims had during the Bombay bomb blasts.

So I decided to google this site. I found one article “Just Another Blow-Up?” by – yes, you guessed right – Frazana Varsey.

Predictably, the low-class idiot bent things around until at the end of the article it became crystal-clear that in reality, it is the Hindus to blame for 300 people dead in the bomb blasts. Other intellects like Urstruly also elaborated on that theme.

And I also noticed another thing – that tahmed32 DEFINITELY did not wax anywhere near as eloquently as he is doing now.

I have noticed from the beginning one thing about tahmed32. He seems to want peace between the Hindus and Muslims, and thinks all this trouble is the product of extremists on BOTH sides of the aisle – kind of like a 50-50 situation. And he thinks Muhammad was a swell guy and everything he did was exemplary, and therefore we should base our life on his wonderful message. And also that the Quran is a book of peace.

I think the redeeming feature about him is that he wants peace.

But it is for sure that he DEFINITELY did not condemn those bomb attacks like he is doing today.

And the same goes for all other Pakis/Muslims I saw there.


So I have to say that that was a good catch on your part.

Home thoughts
The trail of the bombers leads back to Pakistan

Europe will observe two minutes’ silence on the stroke of noon today, a gesture of sympathy and solidarity that recognises that grief and outrage are not confined within British borders. For Britons, this silence will be particularly poignant: a time to grieve with the families of victims, to give thanks for miraculous escapes and to reflect on the motives and ideology that persuaded four young British men, who were not as “ordinary” as some reports have suggested, to inflict such unspeakable violence.

For all the explanations put forward by psychologists, sociologists and criminologists, there are no answers that determine such an outcome or explain the warped logic of a suicide bomber. One factor, however, that has to be taken into account by Muslim communities horrified by the violence inflicted in the name of their religion is the pernicious shadow of fanaticism in the land from which the bombers’ families all came. Pakistan today is troubled by religious turmoil, a country now reaping a deadly harvest from years of military rule, repeated democratic failure, the indulgence of Islamic obscurantism and sectarian violence.

President Musharraf’s military Government has done much to confront this climate of fanaticism. It has turned its back on the Taleban, which it helped to create in Afghanistan. It has cracked down hard on religious terrorism, outlawing extremist parties, curbing cross-border infiltration in Kashmir, rounding up inflammatory preachers and providing information to British, American and other intelligence services that have helped to foil attacks overseas.

But it has been unable to tackle endemic corruption, savage tribal customs — especially in the treatment of women — and the narrow intolerance of the madrassas (Islamic schools). It has not halted the murderous vendettas between Sunnis and minority Shia communities which regularly leave dozens dead, the frequent use of blasphemy laws to persecute dissidents and the attempts by extremists to impose religious restrictions on society. The Bill put forward this week by the Islamist government of the North West Frontier Province to “Talebanise” society may not become law, as it will probably be vetoed by Islamabad, but it has strong majority support.

The problem for General Musharraf is that his authoritarian crackdown on extremism — for which he must be applauded — leaves no room for democratic dissent. No legitimate forum is left for secular parties or those wishing to oppose the Government by democratic means. This, in turn, has bolstered support for extremists and has brought wider political support for Islamists posing as champions of democracy. Moderates are left adrift and too many issues are now filtered through the prism of religious fanaticism.

Most Pakistanis who came to Britain two generations ago left behind the tortuous politics of their country. But neither they, nor the younger generations, can wholly escape the waves of religious extremism coming from their former homeland.

These virulent ideas are reinforced by alienation, forced marriages, the preachings of some imams, a generation gap and confusion among some young Muslims over their identity and loyalties. None of this explains the case of these four young bombers. But unless these problems are dealt with at source, we will not have seen the last suicide bomber in Britain.

Didn`t some paki write an article about the brit elections and how iraq was the #1 issue for brit-pakis....and I remember saying something about pakis caring more about Iraq when they`re at the bottom of the barrel...

EDITORIAL: London and Islamabad must cooperate

Reports from the United Kingdom were ominous on Tuesday: The first anti-terrorist breakthrough made after the July 7 bombings in London suggested that four British nationals of Pakistani origin may have been the suicide bombers. This followed raids by the police in Pakistani-dominated neighbourhoods in areas north of London. One area under suspicion was Luton, 50 kilometres from London, where there is a large community of Muslims of Pakistani-Kashmiri origin. These are now likely to come and remain under suspicion as potential terrorist-hatching areas, which raises the disquieting fear that they could suffer under stringent security regimes introduced by the British government to counter further attacks.

Most of the Pakistani-origin British nationals are, of course, innocent people. They may live in an increasingly non-integrative style but they are not involved in the politics of religion. Because of their conservative lower-middle class origin back home, they are deeply embedded in their religion. Indeed, they may have acquired a defensive-hardline position because of the secular-materialist conditions of modern life in the UK. Still they pose no threat to the established British order. Only a few of them on the fringes of the community become involved in extremist activity. Such breakaway individuals exist in all Muslim communities in the UK. Not only are they alien to their own brethren in the host country they are also out of tune with the community back home. In the coming days, however, the entire expatriate community might suffer because of these individuals.

Disturbing news has been trickling in about the growing lack of integration among the Pakistanis in the UK. In particular, a 2001 study by Professor Muhammad Anwar of the University of Warwick reached conclusions that could only spell trouble in the days to follow. There are 700,000 Pakistanis living in the UK, a majority of them Kashmiris. They are concentrated in four regions: 30 percent in and around London, 22 percent (100,000) in Birmingham, 20 percent (65,000) in Bradford, 20,000 in Manchester and 15,000 in Glasgow. The figure of 700,000 has grown from 5,000 in 1951. Today, because of their high birth rate, fully 47 percent of them are under the age of 16, as compared to 17 percent for their white compatriots. They have the highest unemployment rate, five times more than the British average; and the crime rate is higher among them than in any other community. Two percent of the prisoners rotting in British jails are Pakistanis, the highest proportion for any community.

The good thing is that the Pakistani community has thrown up competent leaders who sit in parliament and look after the interests of their community. They speak up when there is racist discrimination against them and remind the government again and again of the pluralist pledge given to the minorities. But the sad fact is that Muslims in the UK have turned their face away from the obligation to integrate with British society at large. Integration is a defensive measure taken by expatriate communities to avoid being persecuted by the red-neck local extremists who simply hate anyone looking different. A trans-national feeling of being persecuted in the Middle East and events such as the Salman Rushdie affair have forced the Pakistanis into a kind of defensive isolation that is not natural. This is not the case, for example, of the one million strong Indian community.

Communication with extreme elements in other Muslim communities is made possible by a “zone of contact”. There is no such zone even in the volatile Middle East. British laxity has also contributed. For instance, successive British governments have paid scant attention to the takeover of Pakistani mosques by extremist imams and khateebs from Pakistan. Research shows that most of the Pakistani-funded mosques in the UK were originally Barelvi, but have now fallen to extreme Deobandi leaders imported from Pakistan. The traditionally moderate Barelvis complain of a similar “takeover” in Pakistan, but the British government was expected to be wiser than Islamabad. The most lethal British export to Pakistan and elsewhere in the region is Hizb al-Tahrir, an organisation banned in Pakistan for seeking to overthrow democracy and replace it with khilafat. Al Tahrir is an example of the “zone of contact” that exists in the UK between Pakistanis and the salafi Arab ideologues.

Unfortunately, most of the journalistic reaction in Pakistan has been unhelpful. Readers’ columns are full of diatribes against the Labour government. Such opinion is stubbornly in denial of the facts of July 7 (“The Jews did it!”), and defiant in the safety the letter-writers feel in Pakistan. Even though it may appear relevant, reminding the British prime minister that his “crime of going into Iraq with Mr Bush” is behind the London bombings is not a wise stance to adopt. Our concern should go beyond such rhetoric to focus on the plight of the Pakistanis living for generations in the UK who may now face discriminatory measures necessitated by what happened on July 7. Expatriate Pakistanis are “dual” nationals, not simply inhabitants of the UK. They are important to Pakistan economically and politically and they must get priority in our thinking. The practice of “reprimanding” Mr Blair must cease. Pakistan’s High Commission in London must undertake a campaign of “renewal of contact” with Pakistanis, speaking to them on the advisability of a less strident religious expression. London and Islamabad must cooperate, as they have indeed pledged, to act in concert against the terrorists who threaten their peace. *