London’s Hour of Reckoning

babbu #271 Did I say anyone ``deserves`` immigration??
Also, get your facts right on Palestinians. I am not going to waste time relieving you of your ignorance.

#271
``When was the last time a Palestinian launched a suicide attack in the West.``

this stuff is so screwed up. it seems like some paki youth in uk want to do a one-up as compared to WTC arabs..kinda show that they are more arab than arabs themselves and therefore get admiration. i mean if you grow up hearing admiration for the cause, it will happen.

tahmed32 #266

`` While I agree that the underlying problem that gives rise to muslim terrorism has to be addressed, I am afraid that the medicine is going to be as sweet as many pakistanis seem to take for granted will be the case. It will be be in the form of greater enforcement of immigration laws, and the tightening of immigration from muslim countries (pakistan in particular).

Those expatriate pakistanis who shed tears so easily for those poor little rich arabs and blame the west so easily for everything no doubt continue to do so, of course. The medicine will be swallowed by those pakistanis less fortunate than these irresponsible individuals. ``

In the first place tell me why Pakistanis deserve immigration into a society like UK. Ignore terrorism for a second.

When was the last time a Palestinian launched a suicide attack in the West. Most of Palestinan attacks in the 1980s involved one or two fatalaties. They had the sponsorship of Syria, Libya or Iran. Even today Hamas and Hezbollah confine their attacks to their native areas.

All these problems with Al Qaida have to do with American appeasement of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

#236, Ozer Kardesh Khalid,
Mynnettarlik.Tashekur effendi, Sayesinde. Tashih etm.

I really am so happy to see a vatandap to add much destek odemesi to my own efforts. Your writing style is a breath of fresh air when compared to all that stale, one-sided and totally opinionated drab from the so-called ``liberal`` Paki cut & paste machine. You have everyone confused because they can`t put you in a pigeon hole as they want to do with everyone and everything. Watch out for Temporal and others like him. The only ``liberal`` thing about them is the BS they splash on themselves, believing that only they have opinions and everybody else doesn`t matter.
Please keep up the good work. I may not always agree with you, but I will always support you in your right to express yourself the way you want to. You are very good at that. Please excuse my Turkish - I am learning, ever so slowly.

Allah ismarladik,

Senin edepli kardesh

Pakis worldwide are in denial....

Pakistanis react with disbelief about London bombers` identification

Many Pakistanis refuse to acknowledge that members of Britain`s Pakistani community could have been involved in the blasts, despite increasing evidence pointing to the men.
Pakistanis reacted with shock and disbelief on Wednesday to news that at least three of four suspected London bombers were of Pakistani ancestry, with some saying they were afraid a backlash might make it harder to get visas to travel to the West.

Many refused to acknowledge that members of Britain`s Pakistani community could have been involved, despite increasing evidence pointing to the men. ``How can they establish in three days that Pakistanis or Muslims were involved in it? It seems to be a fake story. It seems to be a drama,`` said Mohammed Turfail, a 45-year-old computer salesman in the eastern city of Lahore.

``I don`t think that any Pakistani or British citizen of Pakistani origin could have been involved.`` Abid Khan, 35, a marketing agent for a beverage company, said the news was ``a very sad day for all of us,`` and fretted that the attacks would make it harder for working families trying to get ahead by sending a relative to the West. ``We sold a piece of land to send my brother to get his education in England,`` Khan said. ``This kid of terrorist attacks will make it difficult for people from Pakistan to go and live there.``

Feel scared of a backlash

Business student Ali Kamran said he was due to travel to England to further his education, but that he was reconsidering in the wake of the bombings. ``After these attacks, I feel scared. I fear there would be a backlash and the British people won`t like to have Pakistanis among them,`` Kamran said from the southern port city of Karachi.

British police raided six homes in Leeds on Tuesday, searching for explosives and computer files that might shed more light on what were believed to be the first suicide bombings in Western Europe. They arrested a man, identified by the British news agency Press Association as a relative of one of the suspected bombers.

Many Pakistanis have relatives in Britain, and ties between the nation and its former colonial ruler are still strong. Many dual citizens split time between the two countries. Others send back money every month to help support family members here. ``The suspicion of involvement on people of Pakistani origins will effect their businesses and their social lives,`` said Malik Abdul Rauf, a Karachi convenience store owner. ``Traveling in Britain will be difficult. Pakistanis will be discouraged from going there.``

Home to the world`s largest nuclear black market

Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf has been a steadfast supporter of the U.S.-led war against al-Qaida, rounding up more than 700 suspects and turning many over to American custody. But the nation is struggling to overcome an image as the locale of choice for al-Qaida fugitives, and for being home to the world`s largest nuclear black market.

Many feel deep resentment at what they see as a Western attempt to use the actions of a few to paint their country and their religion with the same brush. ``They are trying to make every Pakistani out to be a terrorist,`` said Mohammed Ramzan, a fruit vendor in Lahore.

But Aslam Khan, a 53-year-old construction worker in the city, said the issue transcended national or religious pride. ``Those who do such things cannot be called Muslims, or even human beings,`` he said. ``My own son was killed in a bomb explosion in 1987 (in Pakistan) and I can feel the pain the relatives of those killed in London are going through.``

Analysis: how Pakistan became a hotbed for terrorists
Zahid Hussain, The Times`s correspondent in Pakistan, explains how religious zeal is used by extremists to lure credulous teenagers visiting from Britain

``A lot of Pakistani families living in Britain still have roots in Pakistan, particularly in the Punjab region, and visiting relatives are seen as an important part of maintaining those family links.

``When children complete their formal education in Britain there is also an inclination among Pakistani families to send them to complete their schooling at a religious institution.

``They send them to the mosques, often in Britain but also sometimes away from home, and as well as receiving religious instruction they will inevitably come into contact with more hardline elements.

``For quite some time, there has been a network of contacts between British extremists and the Jihadi organisations based in Pakistan. Once contact has been made with these young people, they become influenced by them and are encouraged to visit the training camps.

``For the last two decades, sections of Pakistan have been under the influence of guerillas who were involved in the war against the Soviet forces in Afghanistan - with, it`s important to say, American support.

``They had offices in all of the neighbourhoods and were recruiting people to fight in that war. A culture of jihad developed which has continued to this day. Many are still involved in the fighting in Kashmir and through this they have become battle-hardened fighters while others have gone over to Iraq.

``Since September 11, the Government has attempted to curtail these militias, but they have close links with the Taleban and have now become tremendously powerful. The militia organisations have become a state within a state.

``There has been an attempt to restrict their activities but more often than not the Government is turning a blind eye. They have created a monster, and it has come back to haunt them.``

I should add to #266 that the west can only do so much to solve the underlying problem. You can take a horse to water, you cant make it drink. Thus, Tony Blair can no doubt include education of muslims on the peaceful message of islam in his four point program - he cant force the ``muslims`` to get it.

The underlying problem is the rot that has set into muslim culture itself. Only musims can clear their minds of this rot - and they cant do it because to do that they need to have a clear mind to begin with. A catch 22 situation, if ever there was any. It will take generations of bitter medicine before muslims wake up and face reality and see themselves in the mirror.

ferozk #259 While I agree that the underlying problem that gives rise to muslim terrorism has to be addressed, I am afraid that the medicine is going to be as sweet as many pakistanis seem to take for granted will be the case. It will be be in the form of greater enforcement of immigration laws, and the tightening of immigration from muslim countries (pakistan in particular).

Those expatriate pakistanis who shed tears so easily for those poor little rich arabs and blame the west so easily for everything no doubt continue to do so, of course. The medicine will be swallowed by those pakistanis less fortunate than these irresponsible individuals.

re #255 … I think their buddies forgot to warn them … not to jerk off while having a suicide-belt on … the explosions could be of a totally different kind … [sorry for the explicit content … couldn’t resist …]

ferozk:

You are on the money. I heard on CBC radio that Blair wants to do something about teaching hatred in mosques. I hope he adds Madrassas to it, too, presuming that there are islamic schools in Britain.

BTW, is it possible for any government to ban teachings that getting killed in jehad -no ifs and buts- would guarantee instant access to Paradise?

While Pakistan remains bogged in religious BS, here is some great news about India -

http://us.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/13gdp.htm

India is now the world`s 10th largest economy. Way to go!! Mera Bharat Mahan!!

no reform will happen, or can be forced, unless it happens in heart.
1. are these bombings are still felt justified in private talks?
2. are the bombers admired and considered shahids for advancing a goal of stopping ``neo-colonist`` a-la-dawood ibrahim?
3. are these shahids perceived to improve the image of pureland in arab world and the larger ummah?

i am afraid the answers are yes to all three for a large majority. in presense of such overwhelming support, add to that selected koranic passages, its a piece of cake for any operator to get more shahids in future.

I’m late in coming to this board.
What the extremist did in London was criminal and doesn’t further any of the “ muslim causes”, in fact the opposite. The racist thugs of BNP will capitalise on this incident, because in northern cities there is always tension beneath the surface, in several cities mosques have been fire-bombed, a Pakistani murdered.

Surprisingly no incident in Bradford may be the panjabi actress of yesteryears Anjuman is guarding them with ‘ GANDASA’ she has moved there recently.

Prophet zarathustra could u spake What will this Reform be?

Re: # 246

The reason, why I stated in the early interacts that the corner in the war on terrorism has been turned, was because there is now an accepted realization that this problem cannot be solved, without dealing with its underlying causes. The world has now realized that after 9-11, they were simply reacting to its outward symptoms and not the real diease itself. If the horrible events of September 11, 2001 were the high water mark of the terror, the events of July 7, 2005 will mark its remission and eventual end. The Muslims and the Islamic world, after 9-11, still had a chance to institute reforms and pull themselves away from the edge of the abyss. Between the events in New York and London, was a period when the Muslim world was given a grace period to solve the issue of terrorism and after London, the Muslim world has moved beyond the ``fail-safe`` point and now, there is no turning back, and it has no choice but to see the issue to its final culmination.

What I had stated in my interact # 186 as ``...given the wide and encompassing nature of Islam and its over-arching influence in the lives of Muslims, any form of reform in the Islamic world has to include Islam, to be successful and any reform, which does not include Islam in its final calculations runs the risk of being a failure`` now seems to be becoming a policy of the world in order to deal, with Islamic militancy and terrorism. Two of out of four of Blair`s points on how to solve the problem deals with this issue; namly a more focused western attention on the nature of Islam itself. It seems the final Rubicon in this war has been crossed.

I believe, the day of the recokoning for the Muslim world has arrived and ``with us or against us`` does not matter any more, because that option ceased to exist on July 7, 2005.

Ciao

#255 & #257

they`re lurking. perhaps if you rub your magic lamp a little more vigorously, they`ll appear.