London’s Hour of Reckoning

#27 by malik99 on July 8, 2005 5:01pm PT


So now the westerners are paying the price of misadventures of their rulers.


jihadis like you can only get away with so much.....there will come a point when even democracies will do what they would rather not...the backlash, when it comes, will be so not fun for you...increased deportations, profiling, gitmo etc etc..

Re: # 110

hamidm,

Thanks.. Religions have been used by smart people from time immemorial to derive power/money/etc/etc.. I started learning about Quran and life-history of Muhammad just a couple of years back and was amazed by how easily he could have all the fun while preaching some BS to others..

Re: # 110

hamidm,

Thanks.. Religions have been used by smart people from time immemorial to derive power/money/etc/etc.. I started learning about Quran and life-history of Muhammad just a couple of years back and was amazed by how easily he could have all the fun while preaching some BS to others..

Re: # 109

masanmuthu,

.... if it is any consolation, i agree with you ............ islam, like all other organized religions, is simply horrible ............

Re: # 102

ozerkhalid:

``You are spreading hatred against Islam. Why have you been so selective in ignoring the rest of the verses in the Holy Quran ?..``

I was just quoting from the ``Holy Quran``.. Good that you recognized hatred in it. That is what I wanted to point out.. thanks..

---

Also,

``(Surah Al-maida-Verse 32) - If a person is murdering another one, without any bonafide reason, i.e. either he has indulged in violent activities or has also murdered someone, it amounts to the murder of entire mankind and if he saved a person, it amounts to the saving of entire mankind``

Actually the right verse is

005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

See this link and read the whole chapter..
Holy Quran

It`s addressed to the Children of Israel (Jews, I suspect) and was quoted as a part of the story of the two sons of Adam.. So Muslims (the true believers, Al-qaeda folks) are excused.. :-))

My purpose is to show that you guys are unnecessarily blaming Al-qaeda folks for mis-interpretation. They are following Quran to the T.. And that`s why you see the reluctance of the imams /dar-ul-ulooms/ deobandi schools/madressahs/and mosques to issue a fatwa against Bin-laden.. Atleast those folks are honest, not like the ones we see here in chowk.. :-))

Re: # 106

Ranjit asks ``Show me one example where Islam has led to a better state for its followers``.

Malaysia is a perfect example. Ethnic minorities such as the Malays and Orangs are well-respected. Democracy has driven into viable inroads. Human Rights organisations monitor Malaysia without let nor hindrance.

Ranjit assumes ``Most muslim countries do not have democracy, pluralism, secularism``.

You are mistaken yet again. Turkey, where I come from, established out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire in 1923 has a Muslim majority yet is a secular state.

International election commissions monitored ``free and fair`` elections in Afghanistan and Iraq. Senegal in West Africa is predominantly Muslim and President Abdalaye Wade was democratically elected. And the examples proliferate to no end..........................

Ranjit assumes ``The women and minorities are oppressed to the extreme``.

In most Muslim jurisdictions, women have the right to own their businesses (Saudi Arabia, and Turkey`s Sabanci empire) inherit property (Morocco, Tunisia) take part in politics (Pakistan, Bangladesh) gain custody of children and claim maintenance after divorce (Talaq).

See also the Pakistan Muslim Family Law Ordinance of 1960`s.

``There is no interest in science and technology. There is little interest in the pursuit of knowledge, education or culture``.

OK Ranjit here goes. Islam, since time immemorial has rendered weighty contributions to science and knowledge. In maths algebra was founded by Al-Gibrah. Navigation and circumference theories by Ibn Batuta. Ibn Khaldun rendered a multitude of discoveries. Modern Medicine has been blessed thanks to Muslims.

Muslim chemists, physicians astronomers, mathematicians, geographers and others not only kept alive the disciplines of Greek science, but extended their range, laying and strengthening the foundation on which much of modern science is built .

Islamic scientists have prosperously galvanized the practice and principles of medicine which left modern medicine on the esteemed platform upon which it stands today.
Penetrating analysis dwells in the mind of many a Muslim scientist.

Haridth ibn-Kaladah and Iraq`s Hunayn ibn-Ishaq wove medicine into the texture of everyday life that Arab Muslims gradually became drawn to this perpetual subject. A famous Persian medical school in Jundishapur influenced world medicine. Hunayn produced a large number of medical works of his own, among them momentous discoveries on ophthalmology.

Very capable Muslim scientists at MIT and Imperial College today lay the groundwork of modern science, particularly in the field of particle physics, logic metaphysics, the chaos theory and even music and poetry.

One of the most celebrated of these is Egyptian al-Razi, who is often compared to Hippocrates for his originality in describing a disease. Razi also lead to momentous discoveries in alchemy and astronomy.

Treatise on small pox was discovered by al-Razi who differentiates a specific disease from among many eruptive fevers that assailed man. By giving the clinical symptoms of small pox, he enabled doctors to diagnose the disease correctly and to predict the course of the disease.

The Quran in many Surahs emphasizes purity and therefore has an intuitive sense of the hygienic principles far ahead of modern standards. Al-Majusi was dominating the field of internal medicine in the East. Al-Fahrawi was the greatest of the Muslim surgeons and his Kitab al-Tarif (The Book of Concessions), which is a medical encyclopaedia, is a definitive guide for surgeons the world over. Ali ibn Isa was the first person to propose the use of anaesthesia for surgery.

The most illustrious figure of this period and Islam`s most famous physician is Abu Ali ibn Sina, the `prince of physicians`, the Avicenna of Western scholastics and physicians, and one by whose name many people in the East call Islamic medicine to this day. His strides and contributions to anatomy, as well as poetry are second to none. Ibn Sina`s most renowned achievement was al-Qanvn fil-Tibb - The Cannon of Medicine, which was an encyclopaedia that dealt with virtually every phase of treatment of disease. This is perhaps the most influential single work in the whole history of medicine, even including the writings of Hippocrates and Galen.

Ibn Sina is now credited with such personal contributions as recognizing the contagious nature of tuberculosis, and describing certain skin diseases and psychological disorders. Western historians consider Ibn Sina to be a great thinker who was instrumental in passing the Greek heritage to the West.

In the late 1920`s Egyptian doctor, Muhyi al-Din al-Tatwi, discovered that centuries before Columbo and Servetus, Ibn Nafis had explained correctly the circulation of blood. This was once of the most important discoveries in the history of medicine, and made the name of Ibn Nafis celebrated in the West as the real predecessor of William Harvey rather than Columbo and Servetus, who had been credited until then with the discovery of minor circulation.

Ibn-Rushd`s (Latin - Averroes) contribution to the law is invaluable to jurists till today. He served as a judge in Seville and Cordobá. In addition, Ibn Rushd is known as one of the foremost interpreters of Aristotle. Ibn Maymum`s advances in medical law are legendary.

So to surmise, Western modern-day law, astrology, physics, poetry, music and medicine owes a great deal to the vision, intuitive skill and acumen of Muslims the world over. Nowadays, due to the advent of technology and sophisticated medical and surgical intervention in the clinical setting traditional medicine, and its practice and principles are easily forgotten. Yet Muslims are usually behind such avant-garde discoveries.

A lot of great things have been and gone before us by fellow Muslims. For us too, to strive in the cause of greatness we must learn from our predecessors so that we may one day be part of history.

Re: # 34

Zeemax

Healthy observations. History conveniently overlooks Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where the radiation is so dire that even today children are cancerously born with irreperable damage and deformed. Glossy American history books dwarf the issue for political conveniance.

Re:ozerkhalid#103

``Take time to read the Quran. Read all its passages. IMPARTIALLY. You will see all the verses on Compassion. And Mercy. ``

The theoretical concepts of Islam do not mean anything. What matters is how it is implemented and practiced by muslims across the globe. It is the results that matter, especially since Islam offers a complete way of life and wants to gain converts. As an analogy, communism sounded great in theory, until we saw how it was practiced in communist countries and the resulting state of these countries.

Show me one example where Islam has led to a better state for its followers. Most muslim countries do not have democracy, pluralism, secularism. The women and minorities are oppressed to the extreme. There is no interest in science and technology. There is little interest in the pursuit of knowledge, education or culture. Except for the petro-dollars in some gulf countries, the economic state of muslim nations is terrible.

On top of it, there is one common theme in all muslim societies, which is a fondness for mindless violence and brutality. Whether it is the sectrian violence, the violence against minorities and women, the culture of committing ghastly beheadings and suicide bombings, or just mindless terrorism, this is one area where Islam is flourishing. In fact the only contribution of Islam to the world is violence and terror. It has made life worse for literally everyone on this planet, including muslims themselces.

HP

HP as usual types ``When we peel thru ``the gibberish of Islam``

HP you are nothing but a Fascist anti-Islamist. Slander the religion all you like for it is your prejudices that lay bare for all to read. Trying to belittle Islam to gain popularity amongst your fellow interactors are you ?

Just for once in your pitiful existence come to Chowk without the heavy baggage of your prejudice and insecurities. You are so up the alley-way of racism that you make any hard-liners look benign.

HP TYPES ``Palestine wild theories``,

HP these theories would not be so bleedingly wild if your mother, brother, sister or father had died in Palestine would it ? You would not know the Palestinian reality if it smacked you straight in the face.

``The control of the Oil wells in the Arab world and political power especially in Saudi Arabia or may be Pakistan are the ultimate and stated goals of the Jihadi supporters``

That is what your beloved American brethren have achieved.

``talk of acceptance or denouncement of any thing by Muslims at this point appears mute and not plausible``.

Thank goodness you are not sitting on the negotiation table. For you are senselessly brain-washed.

HP you try to stir communal hatred on Chowk by rattling off every now and then, I see no chance of any remorse coming from ill-bred creatures like yourself.

HP sloganeers ``due to their victim mentality``.

Surely both India and Pakistan portray that ``victim mentality``. Where were you during Ayodhya ? Wake up. Smell the coffee !!!!

Ajeya

You wanted examples here are but a few:

Ajeya asserts ``Islam is based on monstrosity``.
Now if this is not racism and demonisation what is ?

``Islam eats into the soul of any culture``
Ajeya your hatred spews venomously once again !!

``People generally unquestioningly follow the religion handed down to them``
This is a glaringly simplistic generalisation.

``Religion is a mental crutch``.
All you focus on is the mental, what about the spiritual dimension ?

Re: # 101

Ranjit militantly argues ``People still mouth politically correct lines like Islam is peaceful but it is a small minority etc``.

A small minority ? The MAJORITY of moderate Muslims, such as myself, condemn acts of terror. You obviously have no Muslim friends otherwise your choice of words would have been more sagacious.

Ranjit rants on ``However, in their hearts most non-muslims know that the real enemy is Islam, not Al-Quaeda. It is just a matter of time when this distinction is not going to be made anymore and every muslim will be viewed as an enemy``

Ranjit I know your fingers are crossed in anticipation and your champagne bottle is ready to uncork itself on that day. Just in case your Nostra Damus like predictions do not materialise here is some precautionary advice:

You are so blinded by the media machine that your layers of thick skin are not porous and receptive to distinct and innovate ideas. Your prejudices are so innate that it would be Quixotic even trying to reason with you. Yet I shall.

Take time to read the Quran. Read all its passages. IMPARTIALLY. You will see all the verses on Compassion. And Mercy.

And then come and interact with some real ``ammunition``.

So Masanamuthu interact #54

You are spreading hatred against Islam. Why have you been so selective in ignoring the rest of the verses in the Holy Quran ? Surely it serves your pedantic purpose. Let me enlighten yourself by countering your negative examples with positive ones so that the readership at Chowk gets a balanced perspective on the Holy Quran and Islam which you so readily condemn.

As quoted in Hadith, the Prophet of Islam (SAW) defined the ``Mujahid`` as those who are doing Jihad with their Psyche/carnal life, a peaceful internal spiritual cleansing. Yet these purported ``Al-Qaeda`s`` are shifting to reverse gear. They indulge in ludicrous violence against others. If they do not get an opportunity to execute their nefarious design most of the times, the so-called Mujahideen prefer suicide bombing.

These Mujahideens and Muslims for the namesake are laying landmines on the roads of true Islam and you Masanamuthu are swallowing their nefarious acts as mainstay digestion. Feeding your appetite is the media frenzy.

Those involved in indiscriminate killing spree are TERRORISTS not MUSLIMS. Please make note of that distinction before waxing lyrical. Acts of senseless carnage occur in Gujarat, they are not committed not by HINDUS they are executed by TERRORISTS. , Ghastly acts, wherever they take place are pleasing the Satans.

NO ONE ELSE.

As per the preaching of Islam, war or violence has never been a solution and the same is not acceptable in any condition. No one is competent enough to draw an inference against a person or a group, and indulge in violence against the same, considering him or her as Simon-pure.

Under Shariah Law only if an enemy invades your land than their ``armed combatants`` should be attacked. NO ONE ELSE. To murder a person is a great sin in the eyes of Islam. Verses of the Quran are cited below pertaining to the murderers.

Masanamuthu these verses should help our readership objectively understand the compassion of Islam-without resorting to senseless rhetoric like you do.

(Surah Al-maida-Verse 32) - If a person is murdering another one, without any bonafide reason, i.e. either he has indulged in violent activities or has also murdered someone, it amounts to the murder of entire mankind and if he saved a person, it amounts to the saving of entire mankind.

The gist is that, Islam denigrates guerrilla war and terror antics.

Islam in totality is a religion of peace and compassion. Violence against any one is strictly prohibited. No one is allowed to launch an onslaught as per their whims and fancies.

Yet many interactors here engage in mindless Anti-Islamic rhetoric as per their whims and fancies.

Re:ozerkhalid#93

Whether you like it or not, there is a global war going on between muslims and non-muslims. You can call it jihad or ``war on terror``. That is just semantics. In reality, what we have is a religious war of global proportions spanning multiple continents.

This religious war was started by the muslims in the early nineties. People like Romair can scream about Iraq all they want, but the reality is that Osama attacked the World Trade Center in 1993, the embassies in Africa and USS Cole in the nineties, well before there was any Iraq or Afghanistan war. The Israeli-Palestinian issue was NOT a valid excuse for this war because the Palestinian fighters like Hamas and Hezbollah did not target the west, but only Israel. Also, there was a middle-east peace process that had made fairly good progress in the nineties. So all in all, it was an UNPROVOKED declaration of war on the west. This took alarming proportion in 9/11 and then in Madrid and London. Of course, the west has responded in kind with Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan (via Musharraf).

The key issue is how this war unfolds. With every attack and counter-attack the lines between ``war on terror`` and ``war on islam`` are getting blurred. People still mouth politically correct lines like Islam is peaceful but it is a small minority etc. However, in their hearts most non-muslims know that the real enemy is Islam, not Al-Quaeda. It is just a matter of time when this distinction is not going to be made anymore and every muslim will be viewed as an enemy. Just as the world fought back and neutered communism, we will fight and neuter Islam as it is practiced today.

Ajeya #98 While you and I have our difference of views on other things, I think what you say here is in fact very good advice for all muslims.

I meant to say ``muslim-majority area in South Myanmar``.

Re: #97 by Romair

I sometimes wonder what you would have done if there was no RSS party in India. How would you then have found the counterpoint for your arguments to balance Muslim communalism and atrocities for the past thousand years in India.

Now, the counter-answer for all the virulent Islamist/terrorist organizations in Pakistan is the sure-shot answer - RSS - that sends out Hindu terrorists everyday to blow up Muslims.

But with no RSS, I wonder what you would have said.

You may never admit it, but the world slowly is realizing about how evil this religion really is.

It`s always the non-Muslims who are bad. Hindus are bad, hence the problem in India. Zoroastrians are communal, hence they had to escape from their beloved homeland. Jews are bad, hence they cannot set foot in Medina, which was their homeland once. Christians are bad, hence Osama. Buddhists are bad, hence the fighting in Muslim majority Myanmar. But the perfect religion only REACTS to injustices inflicted upon it.

You can keep on thinking in this groove, but beware of the reaction of the rest of the world. Belgium and Holland refused to join the EU after the Theo Van Gogh incident has waken them up. They do NOT want Turkey in the EU. France already realizes the threat, and opted out of the EU agreement. Sweden is changing fast. I talk to Americans everyday. They are all waking up out of their insular dreams and starting to ask questions. The recent CNN Aaron Brown interview with the Imam from Orange County is a case in point.

In the end, it will be harmful for the Muslims thmselves, and a lot of innocent Muslims will be affected because of blind and obstinate Islamists like yourself. Not even Gulf Oil will save them. Recently when a Pakistani organization talked to some Saudi official about their ``concerns`` about the horrible plight of Muslims in Gujrat, his curt response was ``In Gujrat, Muslims can take care of themselves`` (paraphrasing here).

So beware.