London’s Hour of Reckoning

ajeya #373 Please refer to my post #381. Same response to you. I am not interested in convincing muslim-haters like you on anything. My discussions on religion are directed to fellow muslims only.

pmishra: i see you mentioning my nick at the start of your post with some cynical comment. I havent interacted with you on this board, not read your posts. the reason is that i am well aware of your petty little minds. Een if there are another 400 million indians like you - no big deal. There will never be enough of you to make a dimes worth of difference to Pakistanis or muslims.

prashant #374 I am not going to spend time discussing the Quran with you. Those discussions are with people who claim to subscribe to the Quran (i.e. self-professed muslims). You are welcome to continue believing that it is the Quran that is evil. No skin off my back.

Re: # 381
Tahmed: Not withstanding that you are referring to me by through a handle that does not belong to me (i.e `prashant`), I feel that I am approaching the Quran with a spirit of neutrality, and am trying to find out from a believer in the Quran how certain passages can be interpreted in as plain a manner as is possible over the Internet. I am puzzled by your reluctance to do so, especially since you yourself quoted Tony Blair in #246 for the need to ``start discussions with Muslim leaders on combating ``the perverted and poisonous misinterpretation of Islam`` . Seems like after appearing to agree with Blair, you are now distancing yourself from the need to clear the air over aspects that might be ``the perverted and poisonous misinterpretation of Islam``. Disappointed.

#372 Ajeya

You will not get a straight answer from tahmed or anyone else about these murderous verses. I have presented them several times on Chowk. You wil only get denial and silly statements about how Pat Robertson is exactly like Bin Laden or maybe Togadia is even worse.

The reality is that at its core Islam has a feeling of supremacy and contempt towards other religions. This has been enhanced by the use of violence in early times by Mohammed and his direct followers. This is the aspect of islam that is emphasized in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

The solution is to state forcefully that some things that made sense to Mohammed and his historical period do not make sense in our time. We should not condemn people in previous times by current standards (e.g., George Washington owned slaves, Mohandas Gandhi did not call for a complete break from caste system) but we should definitely reject these ideas in the current time. I am happy to see that some enlightened individuals (ferozk) and others have started explicitly taking this position.

#376
surgeries are best done by the community itself. e.g. at least get bin-laden if jsut as a gesture of honesty..and then get rid of those camps in manshera

aquaris:

i don`t know which world you live in, but if timothy mcveigh was treated as an ``ordinary`` criminal, the fact is that he was no ``ordinary`` criminal.

it is not those who convicted him who glorified his cause by bringing attention to it, it is people of his ilk.

we don`t have to link these suicides to a cause. . . these suicides are already linked to a cause. the cause that they themselves glorify.

and these aspects have to be highlighted. if the murders that members of the ku klux klan, and the neo-nazis and their sympathizers in america commit were treated as ``ordinary crimes`` without highlighting the hateful racist nature of it, we would be living in denial about the fact that white supremacy is still very much a reality here in the US, and that there are still those who say ``segregation now, segregation forever.`` and talking about bringing deliverance to a ``white christian america``.

bringing attention to what is behind the crime is important. the more we live in denial, the more this continues. . . that is the reality that all of us including the deniers have to deal with.

Romair #343

`` Assuming you are willing to have a mature objective discussion on the subject, following are my points on Al-Qaeda: ``

`` - According to Eric Margolis, who is perhaps the most experienced Western journalist on Afghanistan, Al-Qaeda was originally just a small group of OBL`s bodygaurds. Eric participated in the first Afghan war, against the Soviet. So he knows the area well. ``

Eric Margolis is a demoagogue. I have plenty of his articles to back myself up. Let us ignore it for the moment.

`` OBL was brought into the Afghan War, to boost the moral of the fighters. It was an indication that a rich Saudi was willing to fight the Jihad in Afghanistan. That war was coordianted by Gen Hamid Gul, from the Pakistani side (and Gen Rahman), alongwith the CIA leadership and operatives, with Saudi money and American arms. Hamid Gul has given detailed interviews on how OBL was brought it. Zbengnew Brehzensky etc. were invovled also, in setting up this whole Mujahideen offensive. Please read his interviews......``

Zbengnew Brehzensky was Carter`s national security adviser. Reagan became President on January 1981. The Afghan civil war lasted until 1990. Most of the planning for the Afghan civil war was done by Reagan administration officials.

It was the decision of the Pakistani elite to support Islamic types over secular/nationalist types.

There is no reason to believe Hamid Gul`s version of history. If Osama Bin Laden was so important why is so no references to him until the mid-1990s ?

`` Once the Soviets were gone, OBL and Co. became the Arab-Afghans. To make a long story short, they eventually turned against all their controllers, one by one. They turned against the USA. They turned against Saudi Arabia. And they turned against Pakistan, now....... ``

After the mid-1990s there were a maximum of 10,000 Arab Afghans in Afghanistan. They do not know the terrain, language etc. They have limited amount of money. It is bunch of bullshit to say that they can survive without help of a foreign state. Pakistan is the brain, money and muscle for the Taliban. Maybe their turning against Pakistan is just a show for the Yanks.

Majority of the Arab Afghans returned to their native countries. Most of them were disillusioned by the Taliban confrontations with their co-religionists.

`` There agenda started out as follows: To get the USA out of Saudi Arabia. During this time, the started getting a huge amount of press. In my opinion, due to that press, they have now grown into an idea of sorts. More than the original group, i.e. they have become an organization with no one head. Anyone who wants to fight the USA etc. declares his organization one head of Al-Qaeda. ``

How does someone drive out Saudi monarchy from power sitting in Afghanistan ? Why would the Saudi royal family support the Taliban if they sheltered someone who wants them dead ?

Nobody has claimed Al-Qaeda is a regimented monolithic organization like the Chinese Communist Party, LTTE or the Pakistani military. There is a core group with Bin Laden and his close associates.

`` Otherwise, I don`t see how one guy sitting in Afghanistan, where one can barely send an email, could co-ordinate such a large operation, across the world, including bombings of WTC to UK etc. It has to be a consortium of various organizations...... ``

It cost $500,000 to pull out 9-11. You need logistical help to pullout something like 9-11.
I agree with you. I just think some of the culprits of 9/11 are in the Pakistani military or Saudi establishment or connected to it.

`` The original Al-Qaeda was pretty much on the run in Afghanistan. Because they did not have a country available as a sanctuary. However, the Iraq war seems to have changed that. Now they have another country available, right next to Saudi Arabia. And some of their leadership seems to have settled there. Along with, perhaps, the leaderships of the various consortium parties.....``

If you are referring to Iraq it is a poor choice. Southern Iraq is Shite country. Basra and Nasiryah are quite supportive of the US coliation.

`` The number of recruits available seems to have increased dramatically also. Iraq, like Western Europe had also never had a suicide bombing in its history, till the Iraq War. Now it has had over 400 in two years, or so. Interestingly Saddam and OBL never saw eye to eye.``

Iraqi Sunnis are fighting USA not because of Al Qaeda. They are fighting for their privileges and rights.

`` - Get the USA/UK out of Iraq. This agenda is similar to the agenda of the nationalist parties of Iraq also (Al-Qaeda being a foreign group in Iraq). Over 90% of Iraqis, in a US survey, consider Iraq occupied....``

It is hard to accomplish that without reaching out to Shites and Kurds. I do not know of a single Shite supporter of Al Qaeda. Most Kurds back the nationalist parties.

`` - The second agenda seems to be to create a strong division between USA and as much of the Muslim world, as possible, i.e us vs. them. This will allow Al-Qaeda (or the consortium Al-Qaeda) the ability to move easily between Muslim countries.``

The assumption is that USA and Muslim countries are the only entities in the world. A flawed assumption I might add.

`` The best way for it to do so is to create a constant state of violence, i.e. bomb USA, after which USA bombs some country. After which Al-Qaeda bombs USA again. So on and so forth. It seems to be succeeding in this.......And I think much of its success has been due to the Iraq invasion.........``

Al Qaeda cannot hit USA and Europe on a sustained basis. One attack every 5 years does not count. All these attacks depend on Muslim immigrant population. Restricting the immigration will shut down the attacks.

USA has attacked Afghanistan. there was no choice after 9-11. The only country after that is Iraq. Iran is the only country that faces the likelihood of an American attack.

They can cause some mayhem in Saudi Arabia. Isn`t their original goal to topple the Saudi royal family ? BTW the US military has pulled out of Saudi Arabia.

Some where among the post arjun_m posted an co-ed , which discussed Timothey Macvieh, .....it contained a very Useful idea of negating and nullifiying all this Suicide Crap using One simple technique..

McVieh was not glorified for his Neo-nazi cause... He was treated as an ordinary crimnal,
and that I think was the right approach.

See when we link up all these Sucides... to a cause.... [which to some extent may be true.] we glorify it, creating incentive for future brainwashed probables.

Such Crimes should be treated as a crime, and although there may be a link to some stupid cause , some glorified objectives, some promises of HOURs in the Paradise,
this aspect should not be highlighted, and it should be treated as an ordinary Hineous crime,.... treating it as a CRIME.....denying then the chance to glorify their cause.,
when the media links it to some cause I think it provides incentives to the Other would bees , that they too can create such a mass reaction and help draw the line between Them and Others.

The Objective at the moment of these hineious crimes is to draw Lines , between
Them and Others, clearly demarcate the stands, and force every One to take sides
One way of the Other.

so with carefull planning I do not think the time for surgical operation has elapsed.

arjuna (#371):

whaaat? you`re not attacking my standards are you? i mean i`m old compared to many (chronologically and mentally) here, but come on. . .!

and you mustn`t fail to deliver the ``package`` people expect of you, but you might throw them all for a loop one of these days. now that. . . that would be fun! :)

Tahmed 360.
``I would add that this culture of arrogance and contempt for other religions is not based on the Quran``

OK. Then explain this verse of the Quran:
``[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.``
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=267454

#360 by tahmed32

[I would add that this culture of arrogance and contempt for other religions is not based on the Quran, and I have been saying this for years on chowk. This culture is based on a history of kingships (from where we get the sharia and draconian punishments) and jehaliyat/superstitions (from where we get beliefs in the hajj being the ritual to wash away all sins and so forth). The only real antidote is first and foremost democracy.]

The following is not from the sharia. It’s from the Quran:

22: 19 As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.

9: 5 Slay the idolaters wherever you find them

9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior

3: 85 Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers.

5: 11 And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell``

9: 28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …


So you were saying that “this culture of arrogance and contempt for other religions is not based on the Quran”?

Taken out of context, eh?

Or wrong translation? Like in the case of the ``72 houris`` and the ``72 white raisins``?

#369 by ana on July 15, 2005 8:30am PT

Maybe by your standards...People expect more sarcasm and rubbing-it-in from me :)

re: Jehad and Islam
I am on a vacation to India. I do see more foreign cars on roads in Chennai, more flyovers, more people with more money but it is still chaos on the roads. I would like to think of India as ``organized chaos``. Pak would fit the bill for disorganized chaos.
Anyway, i am digressing.
I was watching BBC on TV at my parents` home in Chennai and learnt that one of the bombers underwent a religious transformation: from being a bubbly guy in love with life and the pleasures it has to offer to a guy who became intensely religious, started attending mosques regularly and shunning things that he once considered as ``fun``. The same guy then goes and blows himself up along with other innocent victims.
My question is:
how did a ``religious`` experience transform this guy into a ``suicide bomber``?
What is it in Islam or the scripture that makes him take this step. We know that it is not money as he was rich and driving Mercedez. Does Islam then applaud such men who are seen to be sacrificing their lives for ``jehad``? If so, then this is where the problem is. Muslims have to stop applauding such acts as ``jehad`` and stop considering suicide bombers as ``martyrs``. However, overwhelming muslim population would continue to applaud violent acts of such men. The battle lies in the minds of the people, not so much on the ground.
Sridhar

i think saying ``de-nial isn`t just a river in egypt`` should be enough, no? :)

i must be getting old...i can`t think of a good ``river in egypt`` crack....

British police chief calls for Muslims to end “denial”
(Reuters)

15 July 2005


LONDON - Britain’s most senior policeman called on the country’s Muslim community on Friday to end its ”denial” about extremists in its midst and to engage actively in the fight against terrorism.

Muslim leaders have expressed shock that four British-born Muslims were the perpetrators of last week’s attacks on London which left at least 54 dead.

But Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said Muslims could do more to help find those plotting further atrocities.

“We have a moment now in which we can engage with the Muslim community and move them from what could be described as a bit of denial into active engagement around counter-terrorism,” Blair told BBC TV.

“Who are the preachers of hate? Who are the people who are looking to groom bombers?” Blair asked, adding that a number of British Muslims had been to Iraq and training camps abroad.

“The Muslim community somewhere will know who these people are. We’ve now got to engage with them so that they give us the information,” Blair added.

Moderate Muslim groups already cooperate with police on security issues but acknowledge that many alienated young Muslims have drifted away and become vulnerable to indoctrination.

“There is a deep sense of alienation in parts of the community, from poverty, from unemployment, from poor education,” said Daud Abdullah, assistant secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), the country’s largest Islamic organisation.