London’s Hour of Reckoning

re: Ferozk # 148

You have so well captured the basic issues whose unclear resolution led me, a couple of years ago, to a decisive disrespect for Islam. Both for Islam as a religious ideology and for Islam as a political force. It was a very hard decision, and even today if I could rationally reject this rejection of Islam as a respectable religion, I would.

My conclusions were the same as yours. The only generally agreed upon justification under Islam, for instance, for `tolerating` me was political expediency. ``Muslims will have to respect other religions and other believes`` because they live in a global village. Not because of anything more divine, fundamental, and moral.

That means that no matter how many Muslims might actually believe in respecting others, there will always be a very strong and religiously-empowered element that cannot be, and will never be, persuaded to move away from the seventh century ideas.

For every person who says `My Quran does not teach such and such`` one can expect another person who confidently asserts ``My Quran does.`` Try as one might, within the framework of Islam, there isn`t anyway to convince, or logically defeat, them. You will never persuade Romair, and you are unlikely to disempower what he represents.

Under such morally ambiguous circumstances, the fortunes and welfare of people like me under Islam becomes a game of little more than political fortunes and fetishes.

For all the obvious goodness of Islam, IMHO, there are some fatal flaws within its core that lie behind many of our troubles. These problems don`t arise just because `Muslims are bad/not good enough people` - a surprising statement that even the best of Muslims often cannot avoid making.

Dear Ana

You type ``this article was more about what the ramifications of 7th july 2005 were to the muslim community. to only ONE community, and not others who may have been affected by this and were``.

Believe it or not ANA I send my heart-felt condolences to all nationalities, colors, creeds, religions where people have lost loved ones. Read a previous poem I wrote entitled ``A Moment of Silence`` and it will become apparent. The morale of that poem is that Blood-spilling can NEVER be justified. Under any pretext.

Ana the reason why Muslims became a focal point in this article is because interactors rather than

a) Praising the emergency services
b) Commenting on the resilience of Londoners
c) Lamenting the dead

focused all their attention on baseless Islam-bashing. Was that really necessary ? After all it is the mainstream modern Muslim moderates who will bear the brunt of social inequity now thanks to a couple of zealots ! Why should the bearded brigade tarnish otherwise sensible minds into believing that Islam projects hatred Ana ? Is that fair ?

Islam is a religion of tolerance. This is not airy-fairy Cinderella-like assumption. What I stipulate is based on scripture. On fact. On empirical investigation.

All Abrahamic religions are peace-based but the ugly reality of dirty politics seeps through the pores of rational minds and spuriously filters through to distort common-sense and engender one-sidedness.

One sidedness is too facile an undertaking.

Ana no matter what anyone says after such a ghastly evil there is likely to be racism against Muslims. No matter how normal a part of civil society the Muslims may be. Finger-pointing is the easiest thing in life.

Believe it or not ANA IM NOT RELIGIOUS, yet I find myself defending my faith not because I feel Im any moral guardian or gatekeeper of virtue but because more than any time in historical juncture now is the time for justice to be fair towards THE PLIGHT OF innocent majority Muslims. They should not be tarred with the same brush as Bin Laden. Yet trigger-happy Chowkies gleefully and negligently harness hatred against Muslims. And relish what has happened. Like they relished finger-pointing after Ayodhya. Did they not ?

Ana states ``ozer khalid has been critical of the ``savage bearded folk`` but that seems to have gone awash in the talk of the west`s anti-islamism, and what the more right-wing conservative racist nationalists would do -- backlash, rather than what needs to be done by the community as a whole and yes, that includes muslims``.

Ana I coalesce with the above-mentioned in that there must be unadulterated co-alition building. Rapport and concensus-formation. Demonising an Islamic template hardly tantamounts to conducive community-based co-alition building ?

Ana types ``regardless of whether the writer wants to see it or not, it was not up to the attackers to pronounce a death sentence on these londoners``.

Ana as i mentioned nothing can justify spilt blood. NOW blood has been spilt in other corners of the world as well. Has it not ? Can you deny that ? Why amongst the media circles is some blood more precious than other blood ? What tilts this biased inequilibria ?

Ana you equate me with colonial apologists. You have every right to freedom of thought. Yet if you read the ``spirit`` of my message maybe you would alter your opinion.

Even so I maintain everything I said and if you want to equate me with despicable colonial apologist then do so.

Perhaps easy moral judgment is what you are used to ?

regards.

Ozer

ozerkhalid #160

{{But rather a structure of truths and events possessing the character of a continuous creative flow somewhat similar to Cantor`s theory of continuity.}}

Your sermon doesn’t become any more credible when you draw bogus analogies with stuff you plainly don’t understand.

{{Einstein himself, much like Islam stated that the ``universe is boundless``.}}

Indeed, Einstein’s theories are fully Islamic – they are all in complete accordance with (and in fact are subsumed by) the Holy Quran. Ditto with a lot of other deep scientific truths.

Ozer

With sensitivity, and respect for each other as individuals, many of these things can be discussed. Such free discussion will let people reach their own conclusions, without being pushed in favor of or against any specific dogma.

You probabably have presented research papers. Notice how fiercely and how pitilessly people tear into each others` arguments. Of course, there are individual biases, and even some personal snide remarks. Yet the overall legitimating framework is that of critique of arguments, theories, models, ideologies, not of people.

Once you and I, and others, agree that we respect each other as people, then any discussion is possible, any argument can be questioned, and any understanding can be advanced.

More of the ``Brits were asking for it`` mentality on display...

link


Despite their rebuke of the bombers, many at the East London Mosque also said they believed Britain`s role in the war in Iraq may have encouraged an attack by extremists.

``If you`ve got a pressure cooker that keeps building and building, eventually it`s going to explode,`` said Sohael Haji, 22, whose family immigrated from India before he was born.


the pressure is now going to build on brit-muslims...eventually it`s going to explode...increased profiling, detentions and deportations will follow....

Re: # 151

PMISHRA

Some people only thrive on others` deprivations

Re: # 165

In the meantime Arjun M will delightfully pour chilled champagne unto his crystal glass. With a smirk on his face ? eh Arjun ? Alas the genie granted you a wish ? Or should I say conceded to your anti-Islamic-fetish ?

Re: # 163

Wow Aleph Null what a display of sheer wisdom ! Finally we agree on something ? Welcome to the partay....

Re: # 164

Kaalchakra

Thanks. If only the word ``respect`` featured in their lexicon like it does in yours. But perhaps that is too wide a vocab to expect from many a cyber-vulture ?

Ozer: Have you overlooked to respond to my post #137? Or merely conveniently ignored it??

Re: # 157

Mohar
//...Now I have deep-seated respect for HINDUISM ...//

Sure you do [wink, wink]......

Nod nod.......Mohar.....


``Actually we hear such solemn declarations a lot these days``

But were your ears not completely clogged with wax ?

``lately many muslims have been professing their ``deep-seated respect`` for a lot of kufr stuff``.

Lo and Behold ! Mohar is finally ebbing toward the virtuoso path.....

``During the good old pre-9/11 days - being called a hindu used to be the greatest insult you can throw at a paki, but apparently not anymore``.

Lo and behold ! Mohar is able to string together a basic sentence in English !

``Not that anybody really cares if muslims respect other faith or not`` .....

Mohar the correct English is ``other faiths``.....Yet again I over-estimated him....

Mohar does the ``11`` in your nick denote your age ? Clearly you are at too tender an age to join this playground. Go find another slide....

Re: # 170

T Ahmed here is the response:

``I have been on chowk for years, and have written countless posts referring to the postive message of the Quran, and as such am better qualified to speak on the above than you``.

OK your majesty I succumb to your sheer authority.....

``And I have not experienced any ``cyber-titans`` coming ``raging down to belittle it``.

But T Ahmed can you not read the Quran-bashing in these interacts or are your eyes too rose-tinted ?

``If you or your kind were faithful to the Quran, you would recognize the clear responsibility placed on you to use your common sense to distinguish between right and wrong, between good and evil``.

Surely you benevolent T Ahmed are capable of such wisdom. We merely follow in your wise footsteps....

``That is what you would then be held responsible for on the Judgement Day``.

Glad to see we both believe in Youmul-Kiyamah. Amen brother. Amen.

``And I have been longer on chowk on chowk, and have had far, far more exchanges on chowk when arjun or some other indian has written posts ridiculing muslims or pakistanis. And I am telling you - this time they are absolutely right``.

Riddiculing Pakistanis is right ?

``I can confidently say that no one has stronger credentials in standing up when I feel muslims or pakistanis are being unfairly targetted``.

I declare you T Ahmed hereby knighted as Sir T Ahmed, Your Excellency....

``And yet - I can also confidently say that the Indian posters whose posts I have read on this bard have been exactly right``.

Were the posters glued or stuck on the wall may I ask ?

``In fact, I complimented Ajeya further below on the very good advice he had for muslims``.

Ajeya ofcourse is a true paradigm par excellence................

``There is a time to stop blindly following the herd, and to start using your head and to act in a responsible manner. This time after the vicious bombing in London is that time. The time for reckoning is not that for Londoners (as the title of your article suggests) - it is for you and individuals like you in the muslim world``. Individuals who do not see the line between right and wrong.

Am I hereby knighted as the resident satan T Ahmed ?

That accolade has been bestowed upon me ever since I started interacting on this very friendly forum.....

Very ``few`` souls comprehend my rantings...

You are clearly one of them.

Warmest regards T Ahmed.

Thanks for your constructive insights.

They always cheer me up.

And provide for the much needed oxygen valve and moral boost that I need.

Selams.

Ozer

Re: # 139

Malik

``I am glad to see you growing up so quickly and asking such big questions``

Well Malik one does come of age. Even people like myself. Cause we learn from the very best. The cream of the crop. The bees knees. Hint hint.........

``Haven`t you realized by now that ``reforming`` islam is the chic thing these days``?

Very much a la mode Malik.....or should I say ``de rigeur`` ? Impressive no my sartorially savvy vocab....?

``Every single person on and off chowk has an opinion about making Islam a better religion. If you ask them how much time did they spent studying Islam in the last one month, most of them could not say more than 1 hour, if that``.

Malik sorry how many minutes would that be ?

``The number of people killed as a percentage of population is far higher in Kashmir than in Darfur, yet none of these self-styled enlightened hindus are calling for the reforms of hinduism``.

Wow finally someone has started asking the pertinent questions.......

``A whole population of Palestine is living under an aparthied system, yet no one calls for the reform of Judaism``.

Malik and these self-appointed moralists on Chowk what do they have to say about this ? Had they been OBJECTIVE they would have been asking this question eeeons ago....

``Its all about what sells. And what sells is ``reforming`` islam. Islam has become the perfect solution to all your personal shortcomings``.

My binge drinking...my lewd conduct.....glad to see someone endorses my shallowness..

``- Fallen on hard times?? Solution: Write a fiction/non-fiction about some aspect dealing with injustices of Islam. It will sell more copies than any other topic your mediocre intellect can undertake``.

Malik you are the key to my personal fortune.....You have fallen like an angel from the milk and honeyed rivers of heaven....

``- Are you a budding film maker and need a break into the market``?

Are you a soothsayer man ? Cinema is my fave past-time. I stayed glued to the box....I am a Woody Allen in the making. Oh sorry wrong religious analogy.....

``Become an overnight `terrorism expert``.

Now those credentials have been awarded to me here at Chowk. Heck Im up for the terror oscars along with Dr Lokraj......

When someone like Ferozk opines that ``leaving`` islam may be the only solution to current issues, you know that he has become a ``chic magnet``

Surely you meant a ``chick magnet`` oozing libido.........

Re: # 147

Miriam K

``I’m very surprised to see that you would take this view. I’ve usually seen you to be some one who encourages debate``.

Dear Miriam I always enjoy interacting with you because you encourage HEALTHY CONSTRUCTIVE AND ENRICHING debate unlike most of our fellow peers on Chowk. I would like to adress your thought-provoking interact point by point:

Myriam types ``It is essential that a society be allowed to critique its institutions whether they are social, political, or religious. Reverence for anything shouldn’t be so blinding that it makes us oblivious to wrongs``.

Myriam let me quote you a verse from the Holy Quran

``Seest thou not that God causeth the night to come in upon the day, and the day to come in upon the night: and that He hath subjected the sun and the moon to laws by which each speedeth along to an appointed goal (Surah 31 Verse 29)

Therefore the Holy Quran in its own admission of the unceasing flux of stages (day and night) encourages constant mobility. The Holy Quran fully concurs with your line of reasoning that Islam is not a static fact situated in an a-dynamic void.

But rather a structure of truths and events possessing the character of a continuous creative flow somewhat similar to Cantor`s theory of continuity. Einstein himself, much like Islam stated that the ``universe is boundless``.

While most of the interactors of Chowk are presenting a ``selective`` and ``exclusive`` view of layman`s reality of Islam being static Im trying to broaden their horizon by stating that Islam has adequate mechanisms to cope with the challenges and opportunities of the 21st century. Whilst most interactors see Islam as an archaic Divine Revelation I see it as an organic wholsesome subject-matter of inquiry.

Religion always has a place in any synthesis of all data of human experience. We are too quick to conveniently filter religion under the rug of our prejudices. Let us be

More mature

More scientific

More empirical in our examination and moral judgments.

Let me illustrate one example: States are ``institutions`` or vessels into which governments are poured. They are ALL corruption-ridden I completely agree with you Miriam. Yet a discerning distinction must be made between the theory-ISLAM and the practice-politicians with long purses and inflated egos. Many interactors meld fuse and interweave both refusing to acquiesce the dichotomy between ``pure theory`` and ``impure practice`` by political ogres.

People blend sweeping and simplistic judgments on Islam without due dilligence, dichotomy and discerning opinion. Surely people can criticize Miriam, but when they criticize with very little knowledge on the subject-matter they are merely rendering a disservice to the debate.

Myriam opines ``Indeed, it’s the reluctance of muslims to be critical of the organized component of their religion which has created a behemoth of dogma. As a muslim I want to know the outside perception of islam. An outsider’s view can at times lend much needed objectivity``.

Myriam if only the ``outsider`` comments were OBJECTIVE. They are very ABUSIVE and subjective. Surely people can critize in a civilized, mature, well-informed, rational, cohesive and intellectual manniere. There is nothing wrong with subjectivity but the ``abusive`` aspect is what I raise an intellectual objection to. When interactos compare Muslims to Nazis, as they have done in these interacts do you feel that is a fair comparison Miriam?

Where is the balance ? What basis has the discussion taken ? What intellect can it add to our boudoir of knowledge ? What healthy image can it conjure ?

Miriam Under Shariah the Madhabs have always encouraged CONSTRUCTIVE debate, discourse. That is why even though Surahs and Ayats of the Holy Quran cannot be altered, Usul-ul-Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) is always reforming, consciously changing, productively modifying, evolving organically.

Look at the strides which Qadis (jurists) have taken under the auspices of Islam in outlawing polygamy (Tunisia 1956 Morocco 1958 Pakistan 1964) through a healthy re-interpretation of Surah Al-Nisa and an exhaustive reform of family law.

Witness how Islamic financiers have re-interpreted the concept of ``Ribah`` and interest-free banking through the double-sale contract, a banking contract increasingly adopted in Western banking circles for collateralised lending and project finance.

Miriam are these not signs of a reforming and progressive religion ?

Miriam states ``Muslims should encourage self-critique and even invite it from the outside. The Islamic world is both in a crisis, and at a turning point``.

We are indeed at the cross-roads Miriam which is why we as the young Muslims, the torch-bearers for future generations to come must apply Ijtehad (personal good conscience) and make relevant choices in our lives.

Islam is not dogmatic since Usul-ul-Fiqh is always under a state of flux. Ill-informed net citizens who try to stamp an isolationist stance on Islam based on scant knowledge and the moral attrocities of certain Mullahs are not crystal-gazing deeper into the workings of young moderate liberal Muslim professionals, who are proud of their ancestry and are part of ahl-al-kalam (people of the pen) as opposed to ahl-al-kitab (people of rigid doctrine).

Miriam writes``And by critiquing I mean people should be able to voice their concerns and dissenting opinions even if they seem irreverent, without being afraid of ridicule or consequences``.

Miriam if they are allowed to slander then surely Im allowed to defend am I not ?

Miriam you state that ``Islam can’t forever carry itself on the coat tails of the golden era. We also have to define what positive contributions it can make in the future``.

This will materialize by re-opening the gates of intellectual ijtehad, striving, without let nor hindrance to comprehend traditional scriptures as well as modern forces and seek an ideational pragmatic cosmic inter-weaving of dual perceptions.

Not through hatred.

Not through blame.

But through coherence and relevant interpretation and re-interpretations.

I would like to know your thoughts Miriam.

DEAR READERS

TAKE A CHILL PILL

I LIKE PROVOKING ALL YOU GUYS ONCE IN A WHILE

JUST TO SEE HOW U REACT

AND HOW YOU ALL GOT STIRRED UP.........

YOU GUYS ARE TOO EASY TO PLAY WITH

IM AN ``ULTRA LIBERAL`` EVENTS MANAGER

WITH AN EMPATHY FOR ALL KINDRED SPIRITS

IRRESPECTIVE OF CASTE COLOUR AND CREED

WHO GOES ON A DRINKING BINGE EVERY NIGHT

IM NO RELIGIOUS GUY

IAM ASPIRING TO BE A WRITER AND A POET

I MAY ONE DAY BE BEATEN INTO SHAPE

IAM PASSIONATE ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS THOUGH

AND DO RESPECT ALL YOUR OPINIONS/RELIGIONS

TAKE MY COMMENTS WITH HUGE PINCHES OF SALT

I LIKE PLAYING DEVIL`S ADVOCATE

IT ROUSES YOU FROM YOUR SLUMBER

AND KEEPS ME ON MY TOES

HENCY MY ``MULTIPLE IDENTITY`` SCLEROSIS

BUT I DO RESPECT MIRIAM BEEJAY FERZANA AND SR

EVERY INTERACT TO THEM HAS BEEN FROM THE HEART

THIS I SWEAR

AND CAYENNE

THAT INVITATION TO MUMBAI SEEMS QUITE ALLURING

SUZI WONG HERE I COME.....

ozer khalid:

you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. i did not call you a colonial apologist. those who would be right here in your corner egging you on refer to some of us as colonial apologists.

and while you`re at it. . . try growing up. oh and some of us were just playin` withcha too, `cause when it comes to credibility, you fail. and some of us know it.

have fun playing your games!!! ta!