London’s Hour of Reckoning

MALIK 99

I wholeheartedly concur with you when you state that `` Western decision-makers cut taxes for the rich, put ordinary bank robbers behind bars yet multi-million dollar corporate fraudsters walk free, and who sqaunder their national wealth on foreign wars while their populations suffer without health insurances``

The crises of Equitable Life and an ensuing under-funded NHS problematique is but one example I can give to add water to your theoreum.

Re: # 70

SR, even though I am Churchillian, I will be the first one to admit that Winston had a very strong racist outlook on life and his believe in the supremacy of the Victorian way of life was unquestioned.

As to his opinions, if taken as a first hand account of Muslims in Sudan, it would be pretty accurate.

I would also add that after nearly a hundred years and more, his observations have stood the test of time and there is nothing in them, which can be denied factually given the conduct of the Muslims in the present times.

Ciao

Re: # 76

SR types ``The ruling elite consists of the power structure, the big business lobby and their thugs the governmental bureaucracy``

SR it is precisely this ``military-industrial-complex`` (Pentagon, Wall Street, Capitol Hill) and its vile dictatorial style trying to dabble into every nation`s business. These ``go-betweens`` and their Don Corleone cigar-room secrecy, opaque decision-making structures and purported ``separation of powers``are all an easily palatable myth for cogs in Uncle Sam`s mill.

Re: # 57

Ajeya

Your ``demonisation`` of the Islamic template is a route which many tread because it is de rigeur to do so. Why don`t you see all the amelioration which Islamic finance, its jurists, its scientists, its engineers have undertaken before rendering a slap-dash verdict on Islam.

Islam, much like other religions, condones improvement and the unfettered pursuit of knowledge. The Holy Quran states:

``Say-go through the earth and see how God hath brought forth all creation: hereafter will He give it another birth`` (29:20)

This verse exhorts all Muslims to discover, explore and improve what the earth has to offer.

What mother nature has dispensed.

So any claims that Islam is static is a cozy under-researched sweeping generalisation.
Circumstantial statements as opposed to evidence-based ones are perilous for they stand on shaky ground and mislead assumptions.

Ajeya you talk about ``cults`` why not obectively speaketh of the cult of ``baseless generalisation`` ?

ferozk#79:

Good points and they sound much more credible when they come from within than without.

I have a suggestion to make for the reform process on the subcontinent. It should start by petitioning the Indian government to ban the Alma Mater of Taliban, Maulana Fazal-ul-Rahman, Maulana Maudoodi, namely, the Dar-ul-Islam of Deoband, within two hours drive from secular India`s Capital. The only problem is that it also happens to be the soulmate of India`s ruling Congress Party.

Ferozek #79: The points you have mentioned are all points related to the general society, its politics etc. These are points that apply to any society, if it wants to progress.

I am trying to get you to highlight how the Al-Qaedas of the world can be changed. You have not mentioned anything related to that. Do you think, the above will automatically get rid of the Al-Qaedas of the world? I don` think it will.

In the 30 years between 1971 to 2001, the IRA set off 116 bombs in London alone. That is 116 times the bombs set off by Al-Qaeda. I am quite sure you would agree that IRA and Al-Qaeda are not similar.

The list you have provided will make the Muslim country (or any country - be it Hindu, Christian etc.) advance. But I think the stoppage of the current violence is a separate ball game. It is not a violence between countries. It is a violence between leaderships. It is not a religious battle. It is a political battle.

Al-Qaeda has killed many times more Muslims since 9/11 than it has killed Christians. Just the Muslims killed in Pakistan is over 10 times the Christians killed in the UK. And the Muslims killed in Iraq, by suicide bombers is orders of magnitude higher. Around 25 are killed everyday. There have been 420 suicide bomberss in Iraq, since the US invasion. Nearly all targeting miltiary recruits........This would indicate that it is not a religious entity. Since terrorist religious entities tend not to kill Mulsims of their own sect....However, Al-Qaeda kills them reguarly.......in Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia and anywhere else.....

I tend to agree more with SR on this.

The Al-Qaeda war machine and the US war machine and any other war machine requires a militant environment, in which it can germinate and grow. This is why I keep mentioning the, ``Circle of violence.`` This has to be reduced. The more people get bombed, the stronger this circle gets. This is why I keep saying, and have been saying for so long that the USA should get out of Iraq. And it should get rid of George Bush and Co. If not for anyone else`s benefit, then its own benefit.

However, if the USA is hell-bent on making a mess of it, at least the UK, which has a much better understanding of the area, should get out. Which luckily it is now planning........This will shrink the environment in which such organizations can operate........

As for your suggestions, they should be carried out, as a method of progress of Muslim countries. I doubt they will reduce Al-Qaeda recruitement though. Al-Qaeda, like the IRA etc., is a political party and movement. It is not a religious party or movement.......It is merely using religion, as a vehicle, to achieve its political ends. ........

Imagine how powerful and popular the IRA would be if the UK had carpet-bombed Ireland. Or killed 100,000 people in Dublin. I am sure it would have set off far more than 116 bombs in London.........The UK should take the same approach here that it took to handle the 116 IRA bombings:

- It should surgicially go after the individual targets in Al-Qaeda (like Pakistan is doing)
- It should not carpet bomb any country, or city, for any reason
- It should simultaneously look for political solutions, with concerned entitites, that could neutralize the political popularity of Al-Qaeda

The one country that has had massive success against Al-Qaeda, now, is Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan is the only country that is having success against Al-Qaeda. Far more than the USA. Why? Becuase it has wisely followed the above steps.

- It has surgically targeted Al-Qaeda leaders, and has caught and handed over to the USA, over 500 of them
- It has not carpet bombed the Tribal Areas, despite the bombs set off in Pakistani cities. And despite, even its own President being targeted, twice
- It has not send soldiers into Iraq, but has placed 170,000 on the Afghan border, i.e. concetrating on the area where there is (was) an Al-Qaeda problem. And not creating a new one in Iraq
- And it is trying to politically neutralize Al-Qaeda`s in Pakistan. Though more needs to be done here........

Perhaps the goras can learn a thing or two from the above............

Re: # 79

feroze,

.....excellent post, but you are preaching to the deaf and blind as is evident from romair`s reponse ......... the problem with the ummah is that they are convinced that they are on the right path and nothing you, or i, or anyone else says can deter them from the ``right`` path (sirat-ul-mistaqeem), even though it obviously leads to nowhere ............ like romair they will continue to obfuscate the issues with ingenious sophistry instead of admitting their faults ......... the problem lies in the fundamental teachings of the ideology which is based on divine absolutes and does not tolerate any introspection ..............

Re: # 66, Zeemax:-

````Soon the gypsy queen, in a glaze of vaseline, she`ll perform on guillotine, what a scene what a scene ! ````

Actually, here are the full lyric anyways:-

Welcome back, my friends
to the show that never ends.
We`re so glad you could attend!
Come inside! Come inside!

There behind a glass
stands a real blade of grass
be careful as you pass.
Move along! Move along!

Come inside, the show`s about to start
guaranteed to blow your head apart
Rest assured you`ll get your money`s worth
The greatest show it happens a hell-of-alot.

(Chorus)
You`ve got to see the show, it`s a dynamo.
You`ve got to see the show, it`s rock and roll

Right before your eyes,
We`ll pull laughter from the skies
And he laughs until he cries,
then he dies, then he dies

(repeat Chorus)

(Extended instrumental, mostly keyboard)

Soon the Gypsy Queen
in a glaze of Vaseline
Will perform on guillotine
What a scene! What a scene!
Next upon the stand
will you please extend a hand
to Alexander`s Ragtime Band
Dixieland, Dixieland

Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!
See the show!

Performing on a stool
we`ve a sight to make you drool
Seven virgins and a mule
Keep it cool. Keep it cool.
We would like it to be known
the exhibits that were shown
were exclusively our own,
All our own. All our own.

Come and see the show!
Come and see the show!
Come and see the show!
See the show!

See the shoooowwwwwww!

(lyrics courtesy Emerson Lake & Palmer)

Re: #84 by ozerkhalid


[Your ``demonisation`` of the Islamic template is a route which many tread because it is de rigeur to do so. ]

Call it “demonisation” AFTER you have illustrated how what I say about Islam is wrong.


[Why don`t you see all the amelioration which Islamic finance, its jurists, its scientists, its engineers have undertaken before rendering a slap-dash verdict on Islam. ]

Amelioration of WHAT? What the heck are you talking about?


[Islam, much like other religions, condones improvement and the unfettered pursuit of knowledge. The Holy Quran states:

``Say-go through the earth and see how God hath brought forth all creation: hereafter will He give it another birth`` (29:20)

This verse exhorts all Muslims to discover, explore and improve what the earth has to offer.

What mother nature has dispensed. ]


I think the word you are looking for is “encourages”, not “condones”.

But anyway, if Naziism encouraged Germans to excel in science and technology (which it did in many ways), it does not make in any less of an evil.


[So any claims that Islam is static is a cozy under-researched sweeping generalisation. ]

This is the problem with “faithful” Muslims. You tell them point X, and they tell you that you are wrong because point Y is invalid.

I NEVER talked about Islam being static.

Whether it is or it is not is a different issue.



[Circumstantial statements as opposed to evidence-based ones are perilous for they stand on shaky ground and mislead assumptions. ]

So true, but irrelevant in the current context.



[Ajeya you talk about ``cults`` why not obectively speaketh of the cult of ``baseless generalisation`` ?]

Which point did I generalize into which other point?

re: Romair # 86

Romair, if you want to how Al-Qaeda can be reformed, I will give you a simple answer.

Al-Qaeda is the last cry of a dying Islam confronted with modernity and progress and it will be reformed, when Islam modernizes, progresses politically, socially and intellectually. Al-Qaeda cannot be reformed in the sense, which you seem to think; it has to defeated by the discrediting of its ideology, which would entail internal reforms, within Islam itself.

Al-Qaeda represents the dilemma in Islam, which is Islam`s inability to reconcile its believe structures, with the neccesities of its temporal existence. Al-Qaeda is the failure of Islam to articulate a distinction between religion and state. Al-Qaeda is an ideology and it can only be reformed by reforming the basic raison d` erte of its own ideology - Islam. There is no political solution to reforming Al-Qaeda and therefore, it has to be defeated ideologically by proving the hollowness of political-theocratic Islam as it is being practiced and condoned by the Muslims.

Al-Qaeda is not a reaction to a militant environment; it is a reaction to the internal weakness of Islam itself, examplified in, and by, Islam`s resistence to the idea of secularism, which is seen as a threat to the identity of Islam itself; not as a religion but as a political idea. Al-Qaeda is the last dying gasp of a political Islam, which is finding it increasingly difficult to accept the envitability of the secular political world, which Islam exists under and which is influencing Islam and forcing fissures within Islam. Al-Qaeda is Islam resistence to the idea of the seperation of politics from religion, because once it happens; Islam will no longer be able to use the moral legitimacy of religion to upsurp political power and rule despotically over its populations.

Hence, Al-Qaeda can only be reformed through a process, which discredits the notions of a theocratic power ideal in Islam. In other words, Islam will have to appease to the ideas of democratic plurality, political dissent, political acceptance of different opinions and more importantly, the denial of religion to influence to politics. Al-Qaeda can only be reformed by reforming the politics of Islam itself and that will only happen, when Islam and the Muslims have seperated politics from religion.

The only way Al-Qaeda can be reformed is through the introduction of secular politics in Islam, which itself means a reformed Islam. Without reforming Islam, there is no hope to reform Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is the public face of a dysfunctional political Islam, which is not willing to admit that it has no political legitimacy and is vainly struggling to linger on to a discredited political power ideal.

Ciao

#79 by ferozk
Feroz,

All your points from a moral pov may have some significance but from a political and social pov have no meaning. This pontification against a political reality that exists today appears little out of place or may be way before its time.
Last night I was in a party where one visiting Pakistani poet was asked to read his poems. One of the poems was titled “Bush” and it went on to depict Bush pretty much a monster. I was amazed by the response this poem got from about 150 well educated and well placed Pakistanis. About 70% of them were enthusiastic in praising it and pretty every verse got a huge Wah, Wah and encore requests.
If this is the kind of response you see from a crowd that we assume should be at least discerning and judicious about terrorism and legitimate political struggle and If these people are the representative of the people in Pakistan or may be the all Arab world, then I am afraid none of the ten items in your post will be heeded to by anybody in the so called Muslim world at least not now.

The position we must ponder is whether the conflict between the two forces has reached a point where talks of some truce are viable? Your ten action items could be the beginning of a truce where both parties are ready to review some of their actions before they come to the table.
In my opinion that point has NOT reached yet and the likelihood of both parties persevering with the conflict are promising.

When we peel thru the gibberish of Islam, Muslims, victimhood and the so-called root cause Palestine wild theories, what do we actually find is that the whole Jihadi effort is to gain political legitimacy either in the form of acceptance by the Muslim countries or share of some power in Saudi Arabia or the power itself in Saudi Arabia. The control of the Oil wells in the Arab world and political power especially in Saudi Arabia or may be Pakistan are the ultimate and stated goals of the Jihadi supporters and various organizations that support the Jihadi effort and provide a tacit legitimacy to the act of terrorism in the eyes of the general Muslim masses.
The obvious Jihadi goal of control of Oil, control of Muslim holy places, and the political power in the Arab world cannot sit well with the US and the west. So the conflict would continue and any talk of acceptance or denouncement of any thing by Muslims at this point appears mute and not plausible.

Muslims would probably be more inclined to consider your proposals when they see two things:

1. The West has found a way to counter the Jihadi ability to inflict a low- tech but high impact offensive such as the London bombing.
2. The political set up in the Saudi Arabia or the ME countries with oil has been sufficiently altered to reflect at least some of Jihadi political demands OR deprive them of the ability to control them.

The West so far has not been able to effectively deal with No.1 and as long as the Jihadi have this ability to rattle a few windows every now and then, I see no chance of any remorse showing up in the Jihadi supporters.

The US recognizes the importance of Number 2 above. The first US instinct was to secure oil supplies and the weakest link was Iraq. The US went in Iraq. The other two countries that Jihadi covet are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for obvious reasons. Both have strong US support and the US is also pushing them for some reforms in the system to increase participation of centrists in Pakistan. The lack of any moderate political group within the Saudi Arabia has been a thorn on the US side. The monarchy can go as far and removal of the monarchy may open the powder keg.

Since it will take a while for the West to find and implement solution for both 1 and 2 above, the likelihood of this conflict continuing for unforeseeable future are tremendously bright and your proposed actions are not viable options.

AFA Muslims in the West are concerned; they have to fend off for themselves as they too overwhelmingly oppose the West due to their victim mentality. There numbers are not large enough for the Jihadis to worry about them nor do they pose a huge problem for the West. The West can always put enough pressure on them to make them take pro-west stand eventually.

#80 by ozerkhalid
Ozer,
Don’t twist what I said in my post. Don’t try to out smart yourself.

Re: # 90

ferozek,

..... i must commend you on your clear-sighted and insightful post - i have tried to say the same thing, but a little bit less eloquently !

......... the problem is that a vast majority of the ummah ascribes to the idea of political islam and the disease seems to be spreading instead of abating ......... just look at the recent move to introduce the hasba bill in nwfp - do you call that progress ? ..... personally, i believe things will get a lot worse before they get better .............

......... but i do agree with you when you say. ``Al-Qaeda is an ideology and it can only be reformed by reforming the basic raison d` erte of its own ideology - Islam`` ......... but how many people can you find in lahore who will agree with you that islam is any need of reform - after all, don`t you know that the religion was perfected 1500 years ago ? ! .......... actually some might consider this blasphemy ...............

#65 by ranjit

``Then it should carpet bomb the Sunni Triangle like it did in Dresden in WW2``.

Ranjit tell me do you have a poster of Hitler stuck up on your wall ?

Were you a member of the 3rd Reich or the Gestapo ?

Your solutions tantamount to genocide.

For people of your ilk there exists an International War Crimes Tribunal.

apne haathoN meiN uthaay huay bhaari patthar
maarnay aaye haiN Eisa ko hawaari patthar

...the hawaaris here don`t even know who Eisa is...

Re: # 86

Romair

Stellar points. It is sanguine to distinguish, as you do, pure unfettered peaceful religion (Islam) and power-hungry hunters with a perilous political penchant (Al-Qaeda).

Sadly many interactors on this e-forum equate Al-Qaeda with Islam and blur the demarcation line. It is like in the 20`s people could not distinguish genuine socialism (Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx) from the totalitarian regime of Josef Stalin.

According to true socialism the state apparatus would ``wither away`` for veritable proletarian empowerment, whereas Stalin super-imposed statist ``totalitarian communism`` and the state apparati assumed centre-stage.

The way Stalin distorted socialism Al-Qaeda distorts Islam.

The times may have changed.

The pernicious tactics have not.

#79 by ferozk on July 10, 2005 8:24am PT

Feroz

I agreed with some of the points you made though your ``blueprint for modernity`` has its flaws. Let me dissect them one by one.

you assertively opine ``the foremost is to admit that Islam and its ideology has become dysfunctional and is in need of a reform``.

The Tanzimat period during Ottoman rule witnessed Islamic scholars using Islamic principles to modernise commerce and banking. Recently Swiss banks have adopted principles such as Mudaraba and Murabaha Riba-free concepts as low-risk financial instruments into their lending mortgaging and borrowing procedures. So what are you talking about? Reform has always been on the Islamic agenda.

``they need to seperate religion from politics and everything else in their lives``

Feroz the very concept of ``Hukuk-ul-Ibad`` (human rights) was derived from Islamic politics. The principle of elections and parliamentary assembly (Mejlis) emanates from Islam and the Middle Eastern peninsula, please consult history books. To separate human rights, assemblies and elections from politics is political suicide !!

``Third; they need to stop appeasing wrongs committed in the name of Islam and speak out against the wrongs done in the name of Islam.``

Now objectively this point I agree with.

``Fourth; they need to intergrate into the societies, where they live and they need to stop forcing their views upon the majority in non-Muslim nations``.

Feroz The Quran stipulates that ``there is no compulsion in religion``. Anybody who ``forces`` Islam down people`s throats is not following an Islamic mode of practice.

Fifth; ``Muslims have to adapt to the 21st century and stop trying to relive the 7th century``.

Feroz Reforms in Tunisian divorce laws under Bourgiba, Islamic maintenance rights for women (Shah Bano case in India) divorce law in Morocco bio-genetics in Bahrain, architecture and engineering in the UAE have all come about under the auspices of Islam.

The gates of Ijtehad have re-opened and many Muslims are undertaking praise-worthy measures. Please do not over-simplify an already distorted western media frenzy to an informed readership.

``Sixth; they need to renounce violence``.

Feroz are Muslims the only ones comitting violence ? Common go travel to Rwanda, Congo, Serbia, Colombia. Violence is committed by all races, castes, colours and creeds people should stop making inflammatory racist comments towards one religion alone. Im not saying you are, but many people here on Chowk go out of their way to bash Islam.

Surely an informed readership is more mature than that.

``Seventh; Muslims have to learn that world has many different interpretations and develop tolerance in deeds and not just in words``.

Feroz That is why Islam has diverse ``Madhabs`` such as Hanafis, Malikis, Shafis, Alevis, Ismailis, each with their own Islamic interpretations. PLurality, discourse and questioning is part and parcel of Islam.

``Eight; accept the prevailing paradigm of international relations and power equations and stop trying to resist the prevailing status quo``

In other words we should bask in the glory of complacency and unfettered capitalism ? Accept the non-effectiveness of the UN and public international law ? Allow Bretton Woods Institutions such as the IMF ride rough-shod over continents ? What kind of a ``reformist`` are you ?

``Nine; create an awareness, within their own societies about political plurality``.

Good point. It is already being done, with diverse levels of intensity in various polities.

``Ten; stop patronizing violence as a means of political tool and glorifying it under religious pretexts``.

A healthy point Feroz.