London’s Hour of Reckoning

Re:ozerkhalid#93

Whether you like it or not, there is a global war going on between muslims and non-muslims. You can call it jihad or ``war on terror``. That is just semantics. In reality, what we have is a religious war of global proportions spanning multiple continents.

This religious war was started by the muslims in the early nineties. People like Romair can scream about Iraq all they want, but the reality is that Osama attacked the World Trade Center in 1993, the embassies in Africa and USS Cole in the nineties, well before there was any Iraq or Afghanistan war. The Israeli-Palestinian issue was NOT a valid excuse for this war because the Palestinian fighters like Hamas and Hezbollah did not target the west, but only Israel. Also, there was a middle-east peace process that had made fairly good progress in the nineties. So all in all, it was an UNPROVOKED declaration of war on the west. This took alarming proportion in 9/11 and then in Madrid and London. Of course, the west has responded in kind with Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan (via Musharraf).

The key issue is how this war unfolds. With every attack and counter-attack the lines between ``war on terror`` and ``war on islam`` are getting blurred. People still mouth politically correct lines like Islam is peaceful but it is a small minority etc. However, in their hearts most non-muslims know that the real enemy is Islam, not Al-Quaeda. It is just a matter of time when this distinction is not going to be made anymore and every muslim will be viewed as an enemy. Just as the world fought back and neutered communism, we will fight and neuter Islam as it is practiced today.

Re: # 108

Ozer, it is nice to know what the Muslims did in the past, but what have they done in the last 100 years or even in the last 50 or 25 years, which they can boast about?

If the only accomplishments, which the Muslims can claim were 700 years ago, then that is a very sad and pathetic comment upon the Muslims themselves.

Ciao

Re: # 106

Ranjit asks ``Show me one example where Islam has led to a better state for its followers``.

Malaysia is a perfect example. Ethnic minorities such as the Malays and Orangs are well-respected. Democracy has driven into viable inroads. Human Rights organisations monitor Malaysia without let nor hindrance.

Ranjit assumes ``Most muslim countries do not have democracy, pluralism, secularism``.

You are mistaken yet again. Turkey, where I come from, established out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire in 1923 has a Muslim majority yet is a secular state.

International election commissions monitored ``free and fair`` elections in Afghanistan and Iraq. Senegal in West Africa is predominantly Muslim and President Abdalaye Wade was democratically elected. And the examples proliferate to no end..........................

Ranjit assumes ``The women and minorities are oppressed to the extreme``.

In most Muslim jurisdictions, women have the right to own their businesses (Saudi Arabia, and Turkey`s Sabanci empire) inherit property (Morocco, Tunisia) take part in politics (Pakistan, Bangladesh) gain custody of children and claim maintenance after divorce (Talaq).

See also the Pakistan Muslim Family Law Ordinance of 1960`s.

``There is no interest in science and technology. There is little interest in the pursuit of knowledge, education or culture``.

OK Ranjit here goes. Islam, since time immemorial has rendered weighty contributions to science and knowledge. In maths algebra was founded by Al-Gibrah. Navigation and circumference theories by Ibn Batuta. Ibn Khaldun rendered a multitude of discoveries. Modern Medicine has been blessed thanks to Muslims.

Muslim chemists, physicians astronomers, mathematicians, geographers and others not only kept alive the disciplines of Greek science, but extended their range, laying and strengthening the foundation on which much of modern science is built .

Islamic scientists have prosperously galvanized the practice and principles of medicine which left modern medicine on the esteemed platform upon which it stands today.
Penetrating analysis dwells in the mind of many a Muslim scientist.

Haridth ibn-Kaladah and Iraq`s Hunayn ibn-Ishaq wove medicine into the texture of everyday life that Arab Muslims gradually became drawn to this perpetual subject. A famous Persian medical school in Jundishapur influenced world medicine. Hunayn produced a large number of medical works of his own, among them momentous discoveries on ophthalmology.

Very capable Muslim scientists at MIT and Imperial College today lay the groundwork of modern science, particularly in the field of particle physics, logic metaphysics, the chaos theory and even music and poetry.

One of the most celebrated of these is Egyptian al-Razi, who is often compared to Hippocrates for his originality in describing a disease. Razi also lead to momentous discoveries in alchemy and astronomy.

Treatise on small pox was discovered by al-Razi who differentiates a specific disease from among many eruptive fevers that assailed man. By giving the clinical symptoms of small pox, he enabled doctors to diagnose the disease correctly and to predict the course of the disease.

The Quran in many Surahs emphasizes purity and therefore has an intuitive sense of the hygienic principles far ahead of modern standards. Al-Majusi was dominating the field of internal medicine in the East. Al-Fahrawi was the greatest of the Muslim surgeons and his Kitab al-Tarif (The Book of Concessions), which is a medical encyclopaedia, is a definitive guide for surgeons the world over. Ali ibn Isa was the first person to propose the use of anaesthesia for surgery.

The most illustrious figure of this period and Islam`s most famous physician is Abu Ali ibn Sina, the `prince of physicians`, the Avicenna of Western scholastics and physicians, and one by whose name many people in the East call Islamic medicine to this day. His strides and contributions to anatomy, as well as poetry are second to none. Ibn Sina`s most renowned achievement was al-Qanvn fil-Tibb - The Cannon of Medicine, which was an encyclopaedia that dealt with virtually every phase of treatment of disease. This is perhaps the most influential single work in the whole history of medicine, even including the writings of Hippocrates and Galen.

Ibn Sina is now credited with such personal contributions as recognizing the contagious nature of tuberculosis, and describing certain skin diseases and psychological disorders. Western historians consider Ibn Sina to be a great thinker who was instrumental in passing the Greek heritage to the West.

In the late 1920`s Egyptian doctor, Muhyi al-Din al-Tatwi, discovered that centuries before Columbo and Servetus, Ibn Nafis had explained correctly the circulation of blood. This was once of the most important discoveries in the history of medicine, and made the name of Ibn Nafis celebrated in the West as the real predecessor of William Harvey rather than Columbo and Servetus, who had been credited until then with the discovery of minor circulation.

Ibn-Rushd`s (Latin - Averroes) contribution to the law is invaluable to jurists till today. He served as a judge in Seville and Cordobá. In addition, Ibn Rushd is known as one of the foremost interpreters of Aristotle. Ibn Maymum`s advances in medical law are legendary.

So to surmise, Western modern-day law, astrology, physics, poetry, music and medicine owes a great deal to the vision, intuitive skill and acumen of Muslims the world over. Nowadays, due to the advent of technology and sophisticated medical and surgical intervention in the clinical setting traditional medicine, and its practice and principles are easily forgotten. Yet Muslims are usually behind such avant-garde discoveries.

A lot of great things have been and gone before us by fellow Muslims. For us too, to strive in the cause of greatness we must learn from our predecessors so that we may one day be part of history.

Re:ozerkhalid#103

``Take time to read the Quran. Read all its passages. IMPARTIALLY. You will see all the verses on Compassion. And Mercy. ``

The theoretical concepts of Islam do not mean anything. What matters is how it is implemented and practiced by muslims across the globe. It is the results that matter, especially since Islam offers a complete way of life and wants to gain converts. As an analogy, communism sounded great in theory, until we saw how it was practiced in communist countries and the resulting state of these countries.

Show me one example where Islam has led to a better state for its followers. Most muslim countries do not have democracy, pluralism, secularism. The women and minorities are oppressed to the extreme. There is no interest in science and technology. There is little interest in the pursuit of knowledge, education or culture. Except for the petro-dollars in some gulf countries, the economic state of muslim nations is terrible.

On top of it, there is one common theme in all muslim societies, which is a fondness for mindless violence and brutality. Whether it is the sectrian violence, the violence against minorities and women, the culture of committing ghastly beheadings and suicide bombings, or just mindless terrorism, this is one area where Islam is flourishing. In fact the only contribution of Islam to the world is violence and terror. It has made life worse for literally everyone on this planet, including muslims themselces.

#27 by malik99 on July 8, 2005 5:01pm PT


So now the westerners are paying the price of misadventures of their rulers.


jihadis like you can only get away with so much.....there will come a point when even democracies will do what they would rather not...the backlash, when it comes, will be so not fun for you...increased deportations, profiling, gitmo etc etc..

#43 by Romair on July 9, 2005 9:23am PT


There is obviously a clear soluion to this. The UK should leave Iraq.


I`ll bet a majority of brit-pakis think like you...a little bit of phony condemnations, the standard dressing about islamc being a religion of peace...then the inevitable point in the islamist agenda...

I could care less what the brits do in Iraq...I hope the brits wise up and do something about the brit-paki problem in their midst...

#40 by Ajeya on July 9, 2005 8:50am PT



Yesterday on CNN Aaron Brown interviewed the Shia Imam from Orange County, California.

Q. But why do they not express their condemnation PUBLICLY and en masse.

Imam: (NO answer)


I`ll bet the imam brought up the linkage between Iraq(or something on the islamist agenda) and this terrorist attack, implying that the brits were asking for it...

#39 by pmishra2 on July 9, 2005 6:56am PT


betrays a deep hypocrisy and a mind that has been poisioned by propaganda.


You`ve hit it on the head...

how many suicide bomb attacks were carried out by saudi medical students against saddam`s secret police?

#78 by ozerkhalid on July 10, 2005 8:15am PT


I urge the UK government to sanctimoniously shield the people in this country from harms way, as the Spanish government acted to remove its people from harm, by ending the occupation of Iraq


I don`t know how muslims read what this dude just said....but to most people in the west who isn`t a muslim(even people who were against the was in iraq), this sounds like they`re condoning the attack...if you had given the nice innocent terrorists what they want, they wouldn`t have placed bombs in your subways....

What`s the next Islamist cause? Give Israel to the palis or bombs on BA planes?

So let`s play the game on Ozer khalid`s terms...

Mr Random brit: I condone the mosque burning, but if muslims hadn`t planted bombs in the subway, this wouldn`t have happened....

only difference is, the brits are civilized...the people who lit the fire will go to jail....

Mosque set on fire in UK

LONDON: A mosque was set on fire by some unidentified people in northwest England last evening. No loss of life or injuries was reported, though the mosque was partially damaged.

The ill-fated Shahjalal Mosque is a part of an Islamic centre in Birkenhead.

The local police suspect ``two white men in their early 20s`` behind the arson. They say the two men, who are yet to be identified, were seen in the area just before the incident.

The incident assumes significance as it occurred just two days after the Thursday`s serial bomb blasts in underground buses and trains killing around 150 people killed and injuring hundreds.

#104 by ozerkhalid

[Ajeya asserts ``Islam is based on monstrosity``.
Now if this is not racism and demonisation what is ? ]

You misunderstood me COMPLETELY.

I said the following:

“I think that because just like any cult, since Islam eats into the soul of any culture, and becomes its only theme, Muslims CANNOT accept that EVERYTHING that their culture is based on (like all the religious events, communal prayers, feasting, fasting etc.) is based on this monstrosity.”

In other words, I did not say that Islam is based on a monstosity. I said Islam IS the monstrosity. And Muslim culture is based on it.

I’m glad we avoided this misunderstanding.


[``Islam eats into the soul of any culture``
Ajeya your hatred spews venomously once again !! ]

I know.

Anytime I say Islam is bad, it’s not because my logic is right. In reality it’s because I hate Muslims.

Therefore what my logic is or isn’t, is irrelevant. And doesn’t need to be debated.

Problem solved!


[``People generally unquestioningly follow the religion handed down to them``
This is a glaringly simplistic generalisation. ]

No, it is what happens 99.99% of the time. If parents are of a particular religion, the children adopt that religion, without much thought or debate. It’s been that way for thousands of years.

And “glaringly simplistic”? Hmmm…

Well I AM a simple guy.



[``Religion is a mental crutch``.
All you focus on is the mental, what about the spiritual dimension ?]

Well, what about it?

Re: #100 by tahmed32

[Ajeya #98 While you and I have our difference of views on other things, I think what you say here is in fact very good advice for all muslims.]

I’m glad you think so.

#88 by veeresh

Thank You !

#105 by ozerkhalid

Ozer as usual opines in bad gustatory sensation :

“HP you are nothing but a Fascist anti-Islamist. Slander the religion all you like for it is your prejudices that lay bare for all to read. Trying to belittle Islam to gain popularity amongst your fellow interactors are you?” And many other pearls of

La Boca Grande,
Yeah! That makes my nick popular! Btw, my nick is already known to about 30 interactors and their multiple nicks on this site. Oh! The Hydra-headed one.

I enjoyed your distortion of my post. I am still laughing, you are funny. Keep the factory of clownish articles and posts going, it is fun…

Re: # 126

You`re really doin` a disservice to yourself, your faith and your countrymen by ranting like this.Calm down, take a deep breath and chill out, bro`.There are many disciplines of hinduism and many schools of thought and worship.There is no monotheistic establishment that can encompass all hindus.The RSS/VHP try to unite hindus as a political force.They try and in an open society must be accorded the same rights as the Muslim League (India) has.But, they don`t speak for all hindus or all indians.Once you realize that , you`ll realize why india is a candidate for a permanent UNSC seat, why indian muslims are not subject to the same censures that muslims of other nationalities are in present circumstances. Peace out.

TO ALL CHOWK READERS AND EDITORS

What Im about to say is the truth. I know it will be unpopular amongst most readers, but frankly I could not give two hoots. Everyone knows there resides truism in what Im about to type.

Why is it that when someone praises Islam even by a mere modicum the cyber-titans at Chowk come raging down to belittle it. Now one reason is surely to gain a ``COOL`` STATUS amongst fellow Chowkies. A spineless act of virtual friendship in the cyber-world for real friendships that are lacking in the real world ?

Now I have deep-seated respect for HINDUISM but not for the racist Hindutva agenda spurred by interactors like Arjun M. Can you imagine the outrage if someone slurred the Hindutva agenda ?

Has chowk merely become a forum for communal hatred ?

Why are the majority of ``moderate`` Muslims putting up with all the venom ? Do you not have an ounce of respect for your roots ? HP, Hamid M, Ajeya in all their interacts spit fire against Islam. What about their Hindutva agenda ? Where is the freedom of true speech ? Where is the neutral balance in their tone ?

Cloaked so deeply under veils of toxic racism hatred and nationalism ?

One knows too well the inner politics at Chowk. The sabotage of this site by a racist Hindutva undercurrent. Those who agree with me should come out ? But they probably wont for fear of losing status amongst their fellow peers. Stay hidden ? For how long ?

When reading this article could readers not have adressed the geo-political strategies in international relations, the strides in forensic evidence gathered in this case, the parallels of terror in other cultures, wider solutions (ok apart from Feroz K`s prescriptions) to alleviate global terror without making this an Islamic trash-fest ? why did ALL comments on this article tantamount to Islam bashing ?

How come Chowk has been hijacked by a Hindutva agenda ?