London’s Hour of Reckoning

#20

The obsession with justifying every act of barbarism and mass murder by connection to middle-east (aka: israel) betrays a deep hypocrisy and a mind that has been poisioned by propaganda. It demonstrates a colonized mindset where only the arab mastahs politicial concerns are of interest.

A million people died in the iran-iraq war. Today, a genocide is taking place in the sudan with muslims taking the lead. In south asia from where i originate (and I suspect you do too) muslim women are amongst the most ignorant and have barely 10% literacy. In india, the last cases of polio continue to fester in the muslim community due to illiteracy and hyper-ignorance.

But these things are irrelevant to you. You will never lead a march against them or make a demonstration against them. This is why you are a loser and a hypocrite.

Now, increasingly, the world has started talking about this very important topic – the muslim mindset. I knew someday the world will wake up.

Yesterday on CNN Aaron Brown interviewed the Shia Imam from Orange County, California. He raised questions that would have been considered shocking and unpermissible only a few months ago (unpermissible because of Gulf Oil, of course).

Some of the discussion threads (I’m paraphrasing here):

One thread:

Q: Why do Muslims show no PUBLIC condemnation and outrage over terrorist incidents like what happened in London.

Imam: Oh, they condemn these actions. We talk about this in our homes, mosques etc.

Q. But why do they not express their condemnation PUBLICLY and en masse.

Imam: (NO answer)

Another thread:

Q: Why don’t the Muslim Religious leaders all over the world condemn these actions?

Imam: Oh they do, they do.

Q: But we don’t see any of that condemnation.

Imam: They do, but they need to do more.


Another thread:

Q: Why do Muslim Religious leaders not issue Fatwas against Osama Bin Laden and other terrorists.

Imam: Oh, God has already issued fatwa against them, the clerics don’t need to.

Unasked Question: So why are they so quick to issue fatwas regarding OTHER people? Why not leave it to God then also?


Hypocrites!

Re: # 43

Romair, I agree with you. The BBC coverage was far better than CNN`s, which was pure emotional blackmail to tarry up the British to support the American GWOT.

Blair has made a few soundbytes, which suggest that he is slightly admitting to the mistake of Iraq, but has not yet come out openly in favor of diplomacy over military force. Also, unlike the United States, there will be a robust debate in the House of Commons over Britain`s role in Iraq and the consequences to Britain from supporting GWOT. The debates in the House of Commons are more bruising and more meaningful than all the rhetoric in the United States` Congress and in the debate on the London bombings, the Blair government will have to justify a lot of its actions in the past four years and particularly, in the last two years.

One only has to see the Question Hour to realize how transparent the functions of the government can be in the United Kingdom. The British members of parliament are known to brutalize a government by their questions and the government has to deal with the opposition face to face and it cannot hide behind the words of the spielmeisters as the American governments do. :)

Compared to the House of Commons, the United States` Congress is a ``Star Chamber``. :)

The attack, if anything, seems to have crystallized the British public opinion to consider what is necessary to defeat Islamic fundlementalism and given the British sagacity, there will be a more even handed and realistic response to the crisis. Romair, remember the IRA problem was solved politically and Britain has a long history of hammering out political compromises and from, what I heard on BBC; the there is consenus that this is a political problem, which needs to be solved politically. The British reponse will much more mature than the emotionalism of the American response and that is what, gives me hope that this problem will eventually be solved.

I only hope that the Americans do not get in the way of solving this problem. :)

Ciao

Ferozek #33:``the British opinion will be to defeat the defeat the ideology of terrorism not through a military defeat, but through a process of discrediting its politics. It will be an astute mixture of diplomacy, calculated force, political entreaties and above all, a resilent patience, based on a political consensus across the party lines in the House of Commons, to find the end of the problem.``

The British and the European population had already come around to this, a while back. They understand the problems of the world, far better, than the US population. The EU`s stance on international conflicts is far fairer and more realistic than that of the USA. This includes their stances on Palestine-Israel, and various other conflicts. Including Iraq.

Europe saw the world`s biggest demonstrations agains the Iraq War. They were gigantic, by any historical account. Much larger than those, in even any Muslim country. This was right after the WTC were attacked. There is not a single country in Europe (including Eastern Europe) whose majority population was not against the war.

The people of London, themselves, were against the war. The Brits completely reduced an overwhelmingly majority of an otherwise very popular Labour govt. in the House. In Germany the elections were decided on this issue. In Spain a govt. was thrown out due to its participation in the war.

These are not small events. It indicates an understanding of world events and a realization that terrorism is not a one-way street. It is basically a recognition of the concept of State terrorism as a participant in this circle of violence..........

So I don`t think the Brits and Europeans needed this attack to have them tackle these issues. They are already tackling them, quite well. France is today, in a poll by the Economist (?) one of the three most popular non-Arab countries in the world, amongst Arabs. More popular than nearly all Muslim countries. Every Arab I meet in Canada (and I meet a lot) loves France. They love Canada also. They used to like UK, before Iraq War. And they have a lot of respect for Germany etc. But they hate the USA. Each and every one of them.

One of the reasons Europeans protested so heavily against this war was based on moral principle - a principle for which they have my admiration. Another was was because they knew that it would eventually reach their own streets. It was realism.......

What is needed now is sane thinking. Not emotional rhetoric and flag waving. Hopefully, the Brits will show the same sanity they have been showing all along, through this war, by opposing it. I think they have put two and two together. They know there would have been no bombings had the Brits not invaded Iraq. Infact, they, including their mayor, told Blair this, loudly and clearly, even before he invaded........

This is the difference between the Brits and Americans. In Britain, it was only a leader who invaded Iraq. In the USA, it was the whole population (60% of which has now realized its mistake).

There is obviously a clear soluion to this. The UK should leave Iraq. Anyone actually concerned about the lives of human beings - be they in London or Iraq - will suggest this. Usually such solutions are right in front of everyone, but leaders remain in denial, i.e. Blair should do what his population has been telling him even before he invaded. However, he is now, personally, too deeply stuck in this conflict. His political future is tied to it. And that is more important to him than anyone`s life........

So, while a majority of Londoners oppose the Iraq invasion, Blair has now started making the same soundbytes as Bush. ``They hate our freedoms. They hate our way of life. They will never crush us.`` etc. I have yet to hear him say, this is directly related to my (his) decision to invade Iraq. I hope he, at least, acknowledges that.........And then figures out what the best way to protect his citizens happens to be.......All he has to do is to listen to the common sense of his own people. And do what they have been asking him to do..................

This whole circle of violence is nothing but a few leaders, on both sides, like Bush and OBL etc. trying to push their own political agenda. In it, they are supported by communalists, neo-cons, terrorists, etc. And the victims are innocent civilians (and innocent soldiers) on both sides.........

Luckily the debates I see on BBC are more sane than the debates I see on CNN. The USA commentators, want to use this attack to get the Brits riled up in support of USA`s invasions. They want the majority of Brits to, now, support the invasion. Not oppose it. The Rush Limbaughs and Bill O`Reillys are hard at work, now..........

However, I think the Brits will make the sane decision. They will actually put two and two together. And realize that this, unlike various other attacks, could have been avoided. And will encourage Blair, even more, now to listen to their opinions.............

We have seen three years of flag waving and loud rhetoric by Americans, on how they will crush this and destroy that. Did it solve any problems? Is the world safer today? Obviously no. To the point that evern the hard-core Republican leader, who switched French Fries to Freedom fries, is now asking for a timetable for withdrawl from Iraq.............

It is thus time to sideline the flag-wavers. They are a part of the problem, and not a part of the solution.........It is time for some sane thiking, outside the boundaries of religion and nationalism.................

Re: # 45

Romair, I am suggesting that Muslims have to make a choice. Either they defeat the forces of evil working in the name of Islam or see Islam destroyed in the process. Right now, in the eyes of the world, Muslim silence on the atrocities in London signifies a tacit approval of the terrorist acts. Muslims have to either walk the walk or simply shut up with talking the talk, because they have been proven as hypocrites; practicing violence but claiming peace unto others.

Muslims cannot have their cake and eat it too. Either the Muslims are against violence or they support violence; either the Muslims are for progress or they are for backwardness. Muslims now have a choice - swim with the rest of the world to a bright future or see the world cut them off as a dead weight and sink because they are not willing change with the time.

I understand that this a political problem, which not be solved with violence, but the Muslims who support such acts will not be convinced politically and thus, will have to be terminated, with exterme prejudice.

Romair, what I am suggesting is that time to sit on the fence is over. You have to decide where you stand on this issue. It is no longer about ideology; it is about decency and humanism.

Ciao

Ferozek #41: ``It is a time, when the Muslims who claim the benelovence of Islam, will have to stand up and retake their religion from the ones, who have held it hostage to violence, extermism, hate, anger, fear mongering, ignorance, intolerance, backwardness, reactionism and injustice.``

What exactly do you suggest?

I am quite wary of such emotional statements. These statements are quite similar to statements that one hears OBL make. He is also asking Muslims to stand up and retake their religion. The RSS is asking Hindus to stand up and retake their religion. The Israeli rabbis are doing the same. The Christian Evangelists are asking the Americans to stand up and retake their religion............

In such a scenario, with every group asking others, emotionally, to, ``retake`` religion, the only winner is violence. Religion is not a piece of furniture or a monetary loan that one can, ``take`` or, ``retake.`` Religion is not owned by anyone......

So, instead of encouraging people to take and retake, a better approach would be to discourage people to take and retake it. And to look at all these things outside the spectrum of religion. Do you really think that OBL has taken these actions due to some religious belief? Do you really think that Bush has taken his actions to liberate the Muslim world, or to make the Middle East safe for the second coming of Christ? Do you really think that RSS organized the Gujrat killings for religious purposes? etc.

All these are political phenomenons. Religion, in many of them, is just a vehicle that is being used. The easiest way to rile up a bunch of Christians is to tell them that it is the Muslims who are killing them. The easiest way to rile up a bunch of Muslims is to tell them it is a bunch of Christians killing them. Same for Hindus, Jews etc.

So perhaps a better approach and suggestion would be to ask the Muslims to retake their politics. And create a situation where neither their own leaders, nor the leaders of invading countries, can harm and occupy their citizens. And where no one can use their countries as a basis of harming other countries citizens, i.e they commit niether State terrorism, nor individual terrorism against anyone. Nor do they allow other countries to do so against them..........

So I doubt there is anything you can suggest that will stop OBL or anyone else from his agenda. Including retaking religion all one wants. However, I see OBL becoming more and more popular. He has turned into a cult figure of sorts. Everyone in Muslim countries he is a terrorist, yet their seems to be a certain support for him, since many Arabs see him as the only source trying to kill Americans, in the same proportion that the Arabs are getting killed. This, and not, religion is the source of its popularity.....I have a Christian Palestinian acquitance, who the other day, surprisingly declared OBL to be his hero. The guy is a Christian!!

So retaking religion is not the answer. This is a political problem. And it is politics that needs to be retaken. And the West could greatly assist in this, by not invading and bombing a Muslim country 24x7. It is actually in its own interest. Because every bomb it drops and every neo-con it elects and every communalist radio talk show host it generates, makes the live of OBL, that much easier.........And it make OBL`s word resonate far louder amongst the weaker amongst the Muslim society than the words of various other Muslims............

As I keep saying, all this flag-waving and this emotionalism is just going to make the circle of violence wider. The only victims will be the people who never wanted to be a part of this circle, and actually opposed it. Like the people of Iraq and London...........I think it is about time, some of the flag-wavers and gung-ho war enthusiats also started taking some responsibility for this violence.........

Re: # 49

``So the only hope maybe will be for people to quit following this religion on an individual basis as they become more educated/enlightened. Which, I`m afraid, sounds very far-fetched``

First of all, nothing is impossible and secondly; it might just come to this solution.

Ciao

Re: #41 by ferozk

Feroz, as I have said MANY times, it is only a small minority of muslims that have the jehadi mindset.

The rest 90% go along either due to fear of social ostracization, or becuase they see no alternative.

I can see that you belong to those who feel a reformation is required. And there are MANY like you that I have met.

Unfortunately, however, this is an impossible task, in my opinion.

You cannot reform Naziism, and still follow Mein Kampf and Hitler.

It`s simply not possible.

As long as the Quran is considered a Holy book, and Muhammad a holy man, there will be people reading what is written in that book, and following Muhammad`s personal example.

The ONLY way would be to tear whole chapters and verses out of the Quran, and radically rewrite MUhammad`s life history. And destroy ALL historical evidence.

And I think that would be impossible.

So the only hope maybe will be for people to quit following this religion on an individual basis as they become more educated/enlightened. Which, I`m afraid, sounds very far-fetched.

ajeya, mohar

Let`s give Ferozk and Romair an opportunity to discuss it out. If they reach a resolution that works for non Muslims, all of us will be better off!

re: Romair (various)

Romair, the point of my comments is that Muslims will, now, have to get involved in the fight. Muslims cannot let the western nations fight to save Islam, because then if the Muslims are not willing to fight to save Islam, then the cause of Islam is already lost. Either they fight politically or with armed force, the Muslims have to get involved and can no longer remain as idle spectators whining how the rest of the world misunderstands Islam.

Ciao

Re: #52 by ferozk

[First of all, nothing is impossible and secondly; it might just come to this solution]


I sincerely hope you are right. For the betterment of ALL of humanity and peace in the world.

Sorry for pasting duplicate info. from another board.. but found this relevant..

---

For those folks who are of the opinion the ``terrorists`` are misinterpreting Quran, the following verses from the Quran would clarify any doubts..

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ``I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.``

008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Reference:
Holy Quran

Re: #54 by masanamuthu

I sometimes wonder how it is that people like Romair rationalize these verses (let alone the good Prophet’s exploits). What do they tell themselves, I wonder. How much lying to yourself do you have to do to maintain “faith” in the Quran and the good Prophet. And how do they do it?

Ajeya: #55

I addressed that to ``Romair`` in one of the previous boards about the ``hate speech`` found in Quran, but he ignored it..

Re: # 57

Ajeya

Your ``demonisation`` of the Islamic template is a route which many tread because it is de rigeur to do so. Why don`t you see all the amelioration which Islamic finance, its jurists, its scientists, its engineers have undertaken before rendering a slap-dash verdict on Islam.

Islam, much like other religions, condones improvement and the unfettered pursuit of knowledge. The Holy Quran states:

``Say-go through the earth and see how God hath brought forth all creation: hereafter will He give it another birth`` (29:20)

This verse exhorts all Muslims to discover, explore and improve what the earth has to offer.

What mother nature has dispensed.

So any claims that Islam is static is a cozy under-researched sweeping generalisation.
Circumstantial statements as opposed to evidence-based ones are perilous for they stand on shaky ground and mislead assumptions.

Ajeya you talk about ``cults`` why not obectively speaketh of the cult of ``baseless generalisation`` ?

RE: #56 by masanamuthu

I have thought about this.

I think that because just like any cult, since Islam eats into the soul of any culture, and becomes its only theme, Muslims CANNOT accept that EVERYTHING that their culture is based on (like all the religious events, communal prayers, feasting, fasting etc.) is based on this monstrosity.

Also there is the family and society angle. They probably think, if Islam is so bad, then how come my father, who was a fervent believer, was SUCH a good man? And my mother? And my siblings? Who I KNOW are good people? And all my relatives?

It is difficult to accept it.

What they don`t realize is that good people often are, and historically often have been, misled by any number of cults. And also that people generally unquestioningly follow the religion handed down to them, in EVERY religion in every part of the world. And Muslims do the same.

And then there is the question of religion being a mental crutch. Most human beings need a crutch, and what better than something familiar and comfortable?

So Romair types would always try to ignore any evidence that makes them feel uncomfortable and on unstable footing.