London’s Hour of Reckoning

Crocodile tears, Lip service sympathies, Reaction worries, Coup chalkings, .........a LOT of Blah blah this; blah blah that.

Two snakes fighting. One has crooked teeth; the other crooked soul, heart, and mind.

One sowed seeds of hatred in ALL of their former colonies. The other seeps hatred through every pore. Karma has caught up with both of them.

Lets see how much restraint these now `victim` state shows. They urged Israel and India to show restraint after thousands died due to terrorism. Hypocrites!

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction - No matter how hard you pray to Allah.

Re: # 2

Ana

You might be cognizant of Jehad but many Chowkies have a flawed understanding of this spiritual precept. TERROR-MONGERS and mischief-makers always distort the `essence` of jehad, irrespective of their political ethnic or religious spectra.

The most arduously attained is `Jehad of the Nafs` (soul cleansing). The concept of Dharma in Hinduism `an application of good conscience` can be equated to Jehad of the nafs.

Blinkered eyes conveniently neglect the blood-splattering history of other calamitous trouble-makers. True justice should always be race, colour and religion-blind.

what is the purpose of this article?

and i very well know what ``jehad`` is. and if jehad is indeed a struggle and an act of internal spiritual cleansing, such cleansing isn`t done the way ``islamist`` groups have been working it in london, in new york, in africa, in india, in iraq, in pakistan and elsewhere i have neglected to mention.

you might want to emphasize what ``jehad`` is not just to the ``evil west`` but to your ``saintly co-religionists`` as well. . . brother. you certainly aren`t doing that here.

meanwhile, there are more of us within the west and without who with conscience remind ``the west`` that they cannot continue to repeat their blood-splattering history in this world. unfortunately that gets forgotten much too often when people want to tar the west, and talk about london`s ``day of reckoning``. . . poor choice.

Re: # 3

Ana how about `centuries` of reckoning ?

apologies. . ``hour of reckoning``

Re: # 4

``About the fallout, does anyone think that the average `gora` can really tell the difference between Ali, Ashish, or Amandeep? ``

Recently there has been a drive among people from Indian sub-continent in U.K. to distance themselves from others. British Hindus/Indians and sikhs want a different identity which will distance themselves from Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims. They don`t want all of them to be clubbed together as ``Asians``.

Re: # 4

Nice try!!.If you live in the Uk, sell the family silver , pack your bags and get outta there.If you don`t, then help someone do it by communicating.We Americans talk tough , but are softies.The British are dangerous bastards.Now that the shit has hit the fan in their own backyard, watch what is gonna happen to muslims in Britain.Don`t tell me i didn`t warn you.

Re: # 4

Ally

The average `gora` is microscopically more discerning. Hence they ruled us all for centuries.....

Kaura,

Remember when Indira Gandhi was assisinated! What Karm had the poor Sikhs of Dehli done to be murdered in cold blood by the angry Hindu mobs? No matter how many times they did mattha Thek in front of Granth Sahib, What in the karmah `caught up` with them?
Granted, these two snakes are very evil, but its going to be innocent ppl who are going to get hurt in the crossfire!!!

---

About the fallout, does anyone think that the average `gora` can really tell the difference between Ali, Ashish, or Amandeep?

I agree with Ana on this one....unless this is a satire on Echoboom`s florid prose, its in really bad taste.

check out www.democracynow.org for today`s interviews with George Galloway...a fitting antidote to straw man arguments.

#4, ally,


My interaction was incomplete. i tried to sum up what I wrote yesterday on the UP. I am not talking about innocent folks/individuals.........I was talking about British as in state/nation/empire. same for muslims.......those who support the policies are equally guilty.

``this World is a Trajedy. Life IS cruel. Modernism has woven an illusionary and unrealistic concept of reality for most. Thus, the WHY???

I sympathize for innocent individual human loss and suffering only - who become non participant victims.``


there are other posts on the topic I couldn`t find. if you read em all, you will get the complete picture I am trying to portray.



Regarding 84 riots and the sikh victims.....I blame the sikhs (as a nation, not individuals) for their misery .

#4 by ally on July 8, 2005 9:27am PT


About the fallout, does anyone think that the average `gora` can really tell the difference between Ali, Ashish, or Amandeep?


Maybe brit-pakis should wear t-shirts with Indian flags...

Re: # 8

Pmishra

Any form of terror, as hideous as such acts of Holocaust are, always have an underlying root-cause. Denial and massacre in Palestine is the root-cause of spineless terror. So are you saying that we should negate any attempt toward a peaceful resolution in the Gaza and West Bank ?

Can you not see the inter-relatedness of global issues in the 21st century mishra ? Or are you trapped in a time machine of some archaic century ?

Heh, heh, what can one say to such a loser?

[quote]
Yearnings of harmony will be ill-gratified until a resolutely genuine peace process graces the Middle East.
[end-quote]

So let me understand this: it is OK to kill innocent civilians everywhere because there is a territorial dispute in the middle-east? Boy, what an ugly human being you are, loser Khalid.

Re: # 11
The `good purpose` here is to advice and warn of the inevitable.My good friend , a pak, was picked up from his workplace and put on a plane and sent back to pakland in 2002.I will not say more out of consideration for my friend.When pak`s went to register themsleves prior to the Apr 13 deadline in the US, many were deported.This WILL happen in the UK too.The Brits have done it throughout their history.What`s new now?.Inalienable rights?.Phooey!.Everything is a scam, some are legal and some aren`t.So, also , laws.They can be changed overnight.Why ask me about `good purpose`?.Ask your fellow countrymen first.

cayenne is used for good purposes as well, not for being so strongly (and maliciously) mirchi all the time.

where`s the good purpose here?

Re: # 12

Beejay:

how do you know im not already engaging in the below mentioned ?

1) Get your rear out of here and get involved in relief operations.

(2) Get involved in inter-community networking efforts.

(3) Snitch, snitch, and snitch! If that guy looks suspicious to you from your vantage point, maybe he can be as hurtful to you as to the rest of the crowds.

Ozer:

All these dire predictions! Relax, your fanny is safe. None of this stuff is going to happen, you are lucky enough to be located in a civilized country where the law and order system is still functional.

The main question from individuals like you is as follows:

WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT?

(And no, sitting in that cushy chair and typing away to fellow chowkies ain’t the correct answer!)

Here are a few suggestions:

(1) Get your rear out of here and get involved in relief operations.

(2) Get involved in inter-community networking efforts.

(3) Snitch, snitch, and snitch! If that guy looks suspicious to you from your vantage point, maybe he can be as hurtful to you as to the rest of the crowds.

(4) Tone down on this “Us Muslims vs. the Big Bad Wolf” stuff you guys (and gals) are so fond of doing, and think of yourselves as citizens of wherever you live – fully functioning citizens, none of this ghetto mentality!

In other words, less words, more action! They always speak louder. (I know it’s an alien concept for some in this crowd.)

(Oh well, I got to return to the broom now.)

Note:

[Yet vitriol from the pulpits of the British Nationalist Party (BNP) and other fallow purveyors of hate will garner fanciful anti-Quranic fairytales.]
Vitriol is a fact of life. The antidote is not counter-vitriol or cowering, but reaching out in ways not done before – not to the vitriolic crowds, but to those who are (as yet) untouched!

if ``freedom is an inalienable right`` then perhaps you should be telling this to musharaff. or to the arab terrorists. brits dont need lessons on freedom from muslims.

also, the immediate reaction of too many pakistanis on chowk (including unplugged) has been this whining about their new-found ``inalienable rights`` in the west - and too little concern for the evil that was inflicted on peaceful office goers in London yesterday.

Re: # 15
Please take your pious , sanctimonious self.........

mirchi:

we all need to find the good purpose within ourselves. you, me, everyone.

enough said.

ozer,

``reckoning`` as you put it, is not just for the west to do. but i do not want to be accused of being pious and sanctimonious once again. you are in essence suggesting that the british people, an amalgam of ethnicities is to reckon for something they did not do. again, how many british said, ``not in our name``. does that even matter to you?

and ozer, quite a few people do have a concept of what ``jehad`` is here on chowk. they also are finding that cleansing out oneself spiritually apparently equates to a growing number of muslims cleansing the earth of some of its people.

if you feel this is wrong, then for goodness sakes, raise your voice just as high against what a growing number of cells and groups have hijacked - as you have it raised against the ``goras``. . . it is NOT just about the goras anymore. it is about ALL of us. and no flowery metaphorical language that emanates from your fingertips can cloak that.

if you truly believe that ``true`` justice is race and colour-blind and religion-blind, then act like it. ``true`` justice isn`t 40 people dead and 700 injured, ``true`` justice is not ``this is what they have to reckon with`` ``true`` justice is not what is happening in iraq, afghanistan, darfur or anywhere else where there has been senseless loss of lives. anywhere else. including the west, where many of us live.

your prose quite simply does not show what ``true`` justice is.

#21 Ozer:

[how do you know im not already engaging in the below mentioned…]

I don’t really know. That was just a guess – based on the fact that you use too many words. People who do so are usually lacking somewhere – usually on the action front!

Anyway, the advice was for people “like you”! Only when it happens on a lrger scale, can one bring about any significant changes in perceptions.

Now, the all-important question here is why did you leave out my no. (4) advice to “tone down this ‘Us Muslims vs. the Big Bad Wolf’ stuff”. Could it be, perish the thought, tacit admission through omission?

#20 by ozerkhalid

“Denial and massacre in Palestine is the root-cause of spineless terror.”

First, based on a statement on a web site everybody has accepted it as a fact that Islamic terrorists did it. I guess having no other choice; I will have to go with the horde too.

Second, I am getting tired of hearing this stale and oft repeated argument that Palestine is the “root-cause of this spineless terror”.

How many Palestinians have been accused or are arrested for terrorist bombing outside of Palestine? So far a majority is Saudi, Yemeni, Algerian, Moroccan, Jordanian may be even some Pakistanis but not more than one or two Palestinian. One Palestinian on Sep 11 attacks was not even raised in Palestine.
Now if this cause is Palestine related, then why we don’t see Palestinians anywhere in this “root-cause struggle?
You will not even find Palestinians linked to Hammas in this group of spineless terrorist.

Before we go anywhere near Palestine, we should remember that when the Palestinian struggle was at its peak in Lebanon and in Palestine, most of these root-cause specialists were sitting in Peshawar and fighting the godless kingdom of Afghanistan supported by the Godless monarchy of the Soviet Union.

If these root cause terrorist did not have support from the US they could have never gotten even close to Afghanistan. So they gained their arms and money from the US in Afghanistan, never raised a hand in the Palestine struggle, never left Peshawar and later Afghani caves and still are probably hiding in the Tora Bora caves and still they are the champions of the root cause Palestinian struggle. The poor Palestinian who spent all their lives in refugee camps or under the enemy fire never asked for help from these criminals and now these criminals pretend that they are the root cause champion.

The buggers are criminals and murderers and if there is any body, who justifies their dastardly acts because of the poor Palestinians, that person is either a blind mullah or an apologist for terrorist and should be treated like one.

Crime has no justification whatsoever. Iraqis are fighting their own war and the Palestinian wont let these champions of hate come near them.
These are Suadi extortionist and are waging the terrorism so they can’t ge control of Saudi Arabia and that is all there is to it. Root-cause Palestine…My foot…

#24
Please read last line instead of this:

``so they can’t ge control of Saudi Arabia and that is all there is to it. Root-cause Palestine…My foot… ``

As:
so they CAN get control of Saudi Arabia and that is all there is to it. Root-cause Palestine…My foot…

HP #25: Well said.

In a peculiar twist of events, common Muslims and Westerners find themselves on the same side: grieving for their loved ones. They BOTH share the grief that comes when your loved one suddenly lies dead amid the blood splattered rubble.

Westerners came out in the millions to stop the atrocities that Iraq war would bring. But their so called ``democratic`` governments did not listen to them. When a western ruler ignores the will of his people, he is praised for showing ``leadership`` and ``resolve``. So now the westerners are paying the price of misadventures of their rulers. They are paying the price for the terrorism that their governments commit in their name.

Westerners are increasingly realizing that the greatest danger to their population is not from outsiders, its from their own rulers. These are the rulers who cut taxes for the rich, put ordinary bank robber behind bars yet multi-million dollar corporate fraudsters walk free, and who sqaunder their national wealth on foreign wars while their populations suffer without health insurances.

So once again, Muslims and Europeans today grieve together: Europeans for their 50 dead, and Muslims for their 150,000 dead (from afghanistan and Iraq only).

the ``westerners`` are not just paying the price of their rulers. but if you want to continue being an apologist for those who would use the palestinians and dead iraqis and afghanis to further their ``inteqaam`` you go right ahead. if you want to go on continuing to be apologists for those who are killing muslims like ihab al-sherif, whose ``crime`` was being the envoy for egypt. you go right ahead. for the muslim people and the diplomats that these people have killed. you compare the 50 to the 150000 killed by ``the west``, but the operatives without a ``ruler`` are not killing their own. the west is.

thankfully, there are muslims out there who are saying they don`t want these atrocities to be carried out in their name. but who`s listening to them? no one. because the ``leaders`` are usurpers, they are no less fraudiyas than the western leaders. but hey, according to the logic of you and your ilk, they are not doing the murdering. our leaders are.

kya logic hai. kya pathetic logic.

````The day after more than 50 people died in attacks on rush-hour commuters, the city’s police chief said: “If London can survive the Blitz it can survive four miserable events like this.”```` (Telegraph)

````London’s Muslims fear backlash```` (Daily Times, Pakistan)

+++

What bravery!

And did you see the report on Al Jazeera, the one where the major whine is that poking and prodding at Heathrow will now increase?

+++

Go for it, issue another fatwa!!

veeresh #29 for once i agree with you. sad, but true.

Ozer

Your previous poetry was non-political and had more meaning. When you try to politicise your writings you get into trouble. You have dug yourself into a right old mess...Ozer you are increasingly losing the plot.

You have a way with words, but alas this time your words will take you to no yellow brick road. You are just a vile and stupid idiot trying to defend terrorists. I hope Chowk boycotts mullahs like you. You are disgusting !!!

Who thinks that this parasite should be banished from Chowk once and for all ?

re: ozer # 16

Please, in the name of all that is holy, let`s not go there :)

Re: # 70 sr
//.... After 24 years in the Land of the Free I`ve moved, with my family, to the UK based primarily on this outlook....//

SO where do you go from here? Now that islamic terrorism has arrived in UK. And it will be much worse, much much worse - because UK has been a sanctuary for islamic freaks for a long time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/international/europe/10qaeda.html?hp&ex=1121054400&en=63f4d035a1e68f74&ei=5094&partner=homepage

``........``The terrorists have come home,`` said a senior intelligence official based in Europe, who works often with British officials. ``It is payback time for a policy that was, in my opinion, an irresponsible policy of the British government to allow these networks to flourish inside Britain.``
``

Re: # 70

SR, even though I am Churchillian, I will be the first one to admit that Winston had a very strong racist outlook on life and his believe in the supremacy of the Victorian way of life was unquestioned.

As to his opinions, if taken as a first hand account of Muslims in Sudan, it would be pretty accurate.

I would also add that after nearly a hundred years and more, his observations have stood the test of time and there is nothing in them, which can be denied factually given the conduct of the Muslims in the present times.

Ciao

Re: # 67 Feroz

Your perspective is interesting and I hope you turn out to be correct in your optimistic prediction about the end of this war. I am quite willing to entertain your scenario as a distinct possibility.

You conclude: {``...if I had a choice, I would favor the British over the Americans any day of the century, because British have the stoic maturity to solve the problems and they never get emotionally unbalanced like the Americans...``}

I couldn`t agree more. As you know, I have voted with my feet. After 24 years in the Land of the Free I`ve moved, with my family, to the UK based primarily on this outlook.

Now, for another quote from Churchill... He seems to be someone you admire. Let me bring to your attention what he said about Islam and Muslims at one point, and seek your comment.

Churchill, W The River War 1899

``How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

``Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall [italics mine], as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.``

Best regards

...SR

Re: # 58

SR, nice to hear from you...

Yes, I am optimistic about turning the proverbial corner, because now the debate has become public and it involves the interests and the well being of the whole world and not just the United States. The United States can be a 800 pound gorilla or a whale or a grinning baboon and still will not make a difference, because now, for the first time in a long time, the issue has assumed an utilitarian scope, where the interests of the many will now outweigh the interests of the few or the one. Realism and common sense usually comes from a close proximity to danger and now, the world realizes that the time for rhetoric is over and the task at hand needs to be solved, because there is no other option.

Blair does not need to change the approach of the United States, but a more likely outcome will be that the United States will have to increasingly pay heed to the politics of multrilateralism and it will find it harder to play the ``cowboy`` on the world stage. SR, the point of the matter, and the fact is, that Islamic militancy and terrorism is no longer an American problem and that makes all the difference, because now we can hope to have a meaningful and a serious debate on the issue.

Also; please remember, that unlike the United States`, the real guardians of British interests are the British civil servants, who frame and craft policies, which all ministers follow. In Great Britain, the minsters may come and go, but the policies remain the same and I have complete faith in the British civil servants to ``get their views`` across the Atlantic and not today, but soon, you will notice a change in the American tune. :)

The possibility of the terrorists getting WMD is a very real possibility, but I can promise you that behind the curtains, strict controls would have been imposed and any nation, with such a capability, which might be considered as a risk, would have lost its sovereign control over such weapons. Just, because you do not see the smoke, does not mean there is no fire. ;)

I doubt it, if there will be a marked loss of civil liberities. Remember, we are talking about Britain and not the United States. The British ``way of life`` is very understated and calm under pressure and now, after a long time, you will see the discipline of the ``thin red line``. SR, I am hopeful, because in any crisis, if I had a choice, I would favor the British over the Americans any day of the century, because British have the stoic maturity to solve the problems and they never get emotionally unbalanced like the Americans.

Ciao

Feroz Re: # 33 {``...The turning point in the war on terrorism has been reached and passed. It was marked by the reponse of the Londoners, ...``}

I am both surprised and encouraged by your optimistic tone. I also admire the response of the British, yet I am not sure that they will make a hill of beans in the GWOT. It is the US that is the real 800 pound gorilla (or Bre`er Fox re the subsequent metaphor) and will keep punching the tar baby, no matter what. I see little possibility that Blair will be able to change Bush`s approach, nor that of any subsequent US president.

I sincerely doubt that we have reached the turning point. Just wait until the terrorists use their first WMD.

Perhaps the terrorists will go quiescent for a while, but the price will be a great loss of freedom in the West (at least in the US, where the Bill of Rights is fast becoming anachronistic) and I doubt that it will happen without considerable oppression of their Mid East origin citizens. At the US history is rife with examples.

The British civility, touching as it may be, is not visible beyond the white cliffs of Dover.

...SR

Now, the world will see the difference!

The ``spirit of 1940`` will revive itself, because the terrorist picked the wrong targets and in fact, these attacks will boomerang on the terrorists. The London Underground or the ``tube`` and the London Double Decker buses, were some of the most visble symbols of British defiance against evil of Nazism. During the height of the blitz on London, the buses worked on scheduled to signify a sense of normality and the London Underground was used as a shelter, where thousands of Londoners passed the nights during the Second World War.

By a quirk of fate, the attackers of London have helped in cementing in the minds of the British public the opinion that the evil of terrorism, just like the evil of Nazism, has to be defeated, ``no matter how hard the road or how heavy the burden``. I am, presently, remembering the words of a speech uttered in the House of Commons on May 10, 1940 and though the world may not remember the speech, it will never forget the speech, which only promised ``blood, toil, tears and sweat`` to the British people as they prepared to defend themselves against the greatest challenge to their freedoms in the modern times.

The turning point in the war on terrorism has been reached and passed. It was marked by the reponse of the Londoners, which was so markedly different than the American reaction after September 11, 2001. Whereas, the Americans were visibly panicked; the British are now determined to see this business through and that means, the British reaction will not be dicatated by notions of revenge, like the American response in Afghanistan was, but by the neccessities of cold blooded realism; seeking to shape the world, which will emerge after the war on terrorism is over.

If there was a silver lining to the bomb blasts in London, it was that now, with Great Britain in charge of the G8, there will be emphasis on practical diplomacy seeking to solve the problems of the world and in this, the British government will be supported by the British public. The British are not prone to emotionalism as the Americans are, but hard headed, when it comes to issues of diplomacy and the interests of Great Britain. The interests of Great Britain, in the Global War on Terrorism (GWOT) will now be different than the United States.

Unlike the Americans, who seem to think that winning the GWOT is measured in body counts of the terrorists killed, the British opinion will be to defeat the defeat the ideology of terrorism not through a military defeat, but through a process of discrediting its politics. It will be an astute mixture of diplomacy, calculated force, political entreaties and above all, a resilent patience, based on a political consensus across the party lines in the House of Commons, to find the end of the problem. It took the British nearly seventy years to tame the Irish Republican Army and it now seems to be quite likely that Al-Qaeda will also be tamed in due time.

Ciao

zeemax Re: # 34 {...As for the ... deliberate killing of innocent civilians ... did America deliberately kill innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki... started the precedent that deliberate murder of civilians is OK if the objective is sufficiently compelling !!! ...``}

The nuking of innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, beyond question, reprehensible acts of barbarism. But is that a justification for reprehensible acts of barbarism now...? If you accept that the barbaric act of killing innocent civilian Jews in Nazi Germany cannot be used by Israel as a justification today to commit atrocities on innocent Palastininan civilians, then you must also not quote the example of America having obliterated the Red Indians, or the Japanese, nor Brigadier Dyer killing innocent civilians in Jallayan walla Bagh, nor the na-Pak Fauj murdering Bengalis, nor Isebella and Ferdinand killing (1492) thousands of Moorish civilians to somehow explain away today`s barbaric acts of murdering civilians in New York, London, Karachi and Madrid. This perverse logic that employs the sins of the father argument is extremely dubious. Karma some might call it, but it is apologism in poor taste.

...SR

Muslim terrorism is not a civilizational conflict between Islam and Christianity ... rather it is a POLITICAL conflict with the ultimate objective of control of Muslim lands by Muslim poulations rather than by proxies.

As for the means being used towards this objective, i.e. deliberate killing of innocent civilians ... wait a minute ... did America deliberately kill innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for a different purpose? Or Not? Give it a thought. The allies at that time started the precedent that deliberate murder of civilians is OK if the objective is sufficiently compelling !!!

zeemax: hiroshima/nagasaki bombings were undertaken to end the war with japan, thus saving far more lives than were lost in the bombings. So, try to find some other excuse for the murders of innocent people in london by your terrorist heroes.

Re: # 44

Thank you for your kind support.

Ciao

Re: # 41
//...One side will fight for what it believes and it will oppose another side, which also will fight for its believes; ... Muslims who claim the benelovence of Islam, will have to stand up and retake their religion from the ones, who have held it hostage to violence//

Yeah - let me tell you right now which side will loose: your side, the side which claims ``benelovence of Islam``. Your side is too small in number, you don`t have the ideological conviction or any historical precedent which drives the other side. You have no platform, no strength whatsover.

You can`t ``retake`` the religion - the religion firmly belongs to other side - the religion IS the other side....... Only way you can win is by discrediting the religion, taking it down hard - the way church was discredited, the way brahiminism and casteism was discredited.

Islam is an ideology - it`s an ideology of exclusivism and isolationism. That ideology has to be defeated.

Re: # 36

Greetings! Nice to hear from you, as always! How have you been?

T. Ahmed sahib, Muslims will never get their act together and they will continue to whine, as is their destiny in life. There seems to be a sadistic streak in the Muslim character, which loves to be whipped because it gives them a reason to play the victim. I have no hopes that anything worth while will come from the Muslims, as Muslims will once again play the osterich and hide their heads in the sands of their own ignorance.

The time for smelling the coffee is over!

A while back I predicted that there will be a battle for the the soul of Islam and now, it seems that hour of the battle has arrived. This battle will be fought between Muslims and each Muslim will have to decide, where they would stand, because the lines are already forming up as we speak. One side will fight for what it believes and it will oppose another side, which also will fight for its believes; it is the battle of good against evil. As far as the Muslims are concerned, Armageddon has arrived and accounting for past appeasements has started and in this battle, for each side, failure is not an option.

It is a time, when the Muslims who claim the benelovence of Islam, will have to stand up and retake their religion from the ones, who have held it hostage to violence, extermism, hate, anger, fear mongering, ignorance, intolerance, backwardness, reactionism and injustice. Right now, the time has arrived either the vast, and so called and self-proclaimed, silent majority of the Muslims fight for the salvation of their religion and for the sake of their own souls in the Hereafter or they capitulate to the forces of darkness, which seems to eating their religion from the inside like a cancer.

The world, and the Muslims who live in it and subsribe to a more enlightened view of Islam, do not have the luxury of ``getting their act together``. The time has come, when to the victor will belong the spoils, and in this case, a victory of a violent and extermist Islam is not an option. Islam has to be re-taken; with guile; with conviction; with force, and with blood, if necessary.

The `hinge of fate`` has turned. Now, it is not possible to sit on the fence. What this means for the Muslims is that they have to decide, where they will stand and where they will fall in this battle. Muslims are standing on the threshold of a critical choice and one fork in the road leads to progress and enlightenment and humanism and decency and other to leads to barbarism, darkness, moral myopia and spiritual bankruptcy.

Ciao

ferozk #33 I have no doubt that time will prove you to be quite correct. These fools timed their murderous attacks at the same time as the world`s leaders were gathered for G-8. These included leaders of Russia, India and China: all three nations that would be only too happy to join hands with the UK and US in the fight against these terrorists. So, unlike 1940, Britain no longer stands alone. All civilized people of the world are with them. Muslims can either keep whining about profiling and misrepresenting the facts in Iraq. Or they can smell the coffee and get their act together. Knowing the arrogance and stupidity of most islamist types, I suspect they will learn the hard way.

Re: # 37
//....Right its time for the silent LAMBs called the Silent Muslims.... start talking....
and start telling How much they do are against this pathetic......... ways of the terrorists.....//

``Silent Lambs``? Not really - It`s more like passive supporters and closet-admirers. That`s why there won`t be any ``talking``, there won`t be any actions, there won`t be commuity activism aginst terrorists. ...... Because Muslims at large identify with the ``causes`` these bombers are fighting for..... they consider these attacks necessity as a revenge and as a deterrent.

I wll go with Beejay # 12 on this....


Right its time for the silent LAMBs called the Silent Muslims.... start talking....
and start telling How much they do are against this pathetic......... ways of the terrorists.....

Not words but actions are now required by the Muslims .....

Ozer!.There`s always a silver lining to every cloud!.Figure this.When you get thrown outta the UK to Pak, you will be that closer to India.You can get a visa, visit our open society, dance all you want, drink all you want, eat all you want,pray all you want,watch any kind of movie,watch hundreds of tv channels, travel all you want(we`re the world`s 7th largest nation), meditate all you want, in other words, ANYTHING YOU WANNA DO, YOU CAN!!!.Visit the cities, towns,villages, rain forests, beaches, deserts, hill stations, mountains and valleys of India.Why stay in that dingy,damp, dank and dark little island when you can visit `Incredible India`?. I hope the indians issue you a visa.

#20

The obsession with justifying every act of barbarism and mass murder by connection to middle-east (aka: israel) betrays a deep hypocrisy and a mind that has been poisioned by propaganda. It demonstrates a colonized mindset where only the arab mastahs politicial concerns are of interest.

A million people died in the iran-iraq war. Today, a genocide is taking place in the sudan with muslims taking the lead. In south asia from where i originate (and I suspect you do too) muslim women are amongst the most ignorant and have barely 10% literacy. In india, the last cases of polio continue to fester in the muslim community due to illiteracy and hyper-ignorance.

But these things are irrelevant to you. You will never lead a march against them or make a demonstration against them. This is why you are a loser and a hypocrite.

Now, increasingly, the world has started talking about this very important topic – the muslim mindset. I knew someday the world will wake up.

Yesterday on CNN Aaron Brown interviewed the Shia Imam from Orange County, California. He raised questions that would have been considered shocking and unpermissible only a few months ago (unpermissible because of Gulf Oil, of course).

Some of the discussion threads (I’m paraphrasing here):

One thread:

Q: Why do Muslims show no PUBLIC condemnation and outrage over terrorist incidents like what happened in London.

Imam: Oh, they condemn these actions. We talk about this in our homes, mosques etc.

Q. But why do they not express their condemnation PUBLICLY and en masse.

Imam: (NO answer)

Another thread:

Q: Why don’t the Muslim Religious leaders all over the world condemn these actions?

Imam: Oh they do, they do.

Q: But we don’t see any of that condemnation.

Imam: They do, but they need to do more.


Another thread:

Q: Why do Muslim Religious leaders not issue Fatwas against Osama Bin Laden and other terrorists.

Imam: Oh, God has already issued fatwa against them, the clerics don’t need to.

Unasked Question: So why are they so quick to issue fatwas regarding OTHER people? Why not leave it to God then also?


Hypocrites!

Re: # 43

Romair, I agree with you. The BBC coverage was far better than CNN`s, which was pure emotional blackmail to tarry up the British to support the American GWOT.

Blair has made a few soundbytes, which suggest that he is slightly admitting to the mistake of Iraq, but has not yet come out openly in favor of diplomacy over military force. Also, unlike the United States, there will be a robust debate in the House of Commons over Britain`s role in Iraq and the consequences to Britain from supporting GWOT. The debates in the House of Commons are more bruising and more meaningful than all the rhetoric in the United States` Congress and in the debate on the London bombings, the Blair government will have to justify a lot of its actions in the past four years and particularly, in the last two years.

One only has to see the Question Hour to realize how transparent the functions of the government can be in the United Kingdom. The British members of parliament are known to brutalize a government by their questions and the government has to deal with the opposition face to face and it cannot hide behind the words of the spielmeisters as the American governments do. :)

Compared to the House of Commons, the United States` Congress is a ``Star Chamber``. :)

The attack, if anything, seems to have crystallized the British public opinion to consider what is necessary to defeat Islamic fundlementalism and given the British sagacity, there will be a more even handed and realistic response to the crisis. Romair, remember the IRA problem was solved politically and Britain has a long history of hammering out political compromises and from, what I heard on BBC; the there is consenus that this is a political problem, which needs to be solved politically. The British reponse will much more mature than the emotionalism of the American response and that is what, gives me hope that this problem will eventually be solved.

I only hope that the Americans do not get in the way of solving this problem. :)

Ciao

Ferozek #33:``the British opinion will be to defeat the defeat the ideology of terrorism not through a military defeat, but through a process of discrediting its politics. It will be an astute mixture of diplomacy, calculated force, political entreaties and above all, a resilent patience, based on a political consensus across the party lines in the House of Commons, to find the end of the problem.``

The British and the European population had already come around to this, a while back. They understand the problems of the world, far better, than the US population. The EU`s stance on international conflicts is far fairer and more realistic than that of the USA. This includes their stances on Palestine-Israel, and various other conflicts. Including Iraq.

Europe saw the world`s biggest demonstrations agains the Iraq War. They were gigantic, by any historical account. Much larger than those, in even any Muslim country. This was right after the WTC were attacked. There is not a single country in Europe (including Eastern Europe) whose majority population was not against the war.

The people of London, themselves, were against the war. The Brits completely reduced an overwhelmingly majority of an otherwise very popular Labour govt. in the House. In Germany the elections were decided on this issue. In Spain a govt. was thrown out due to its participation in the war.

These are not small events. It indicates an understanding of world events and a realization that terrorism is not a one-way street. It is basically a recognition of the concept of State terrorism as a participant in this circle of violence..........

So I don`t think the Brits and Europeans needed this attack to have them tackle these issues. They are already tackling them, quite well. France is today, in a poll by the Economist (?) one of the three most popular non-Arab countries in the world, amongst Arabs. More popular than nearly all Muslim countries. Every Arab I meet in Canada (and I meet a lot) loves France. They love Canada also. They used to like UK, before Iraq War. And they have a lot of respect for Germany etc. But they hate the USA. Each and every one of them.

One of the reasons Europeans protested so heavily against this war was based on moral principle - a principle for which they have my admiration. Another was was because they knew that it would eventually reach their own streets. It was realism.......

What is needed now is sane thinking. Not emotional rhetoric and flag waving. Hopefully, the Brits will show the same sanity they have been showing all along, through this war, by opposing it. I think they have put two and two together. They know there would have been no bombings had the Brits not invaded Iraq. Infact, they, including their mayor, told Blair this, loudly and clearly, even before he invaded........

This is the difference between the Brits and Americans. In Britain, it was only a leader who invaded Iraq. In the USA, it was the whole population (60% of which has now realized its mistake).

There is obviously a clear soluion to this. The UK should leave Iraq. Anyone actually concerned about the lives of human beings - be they in London or Iraq - will suggest this. Usually such solutions are right in front of everyone, but leaders remain in denial, i.e. Blair should do what his population has been telling him even before he invaded. However, he is now, personally, too deeply stuck in this conflict. His political future is tied to it. And that is more important to him than anyone`s life........

So, while a majority of Londoners oppose the Iraq invasion, Blair has now started making the same soundbytes as Bush. ``They hate our freedoms. They hate our way of life. They will never crush us.`` etc. I have yet to hear him say, this is directly related to my (his) decision to invade Iraq. I hope he, at least, acknowledges that.........And then figures out what the best way to protect his citizens happens to be.......All he has to do is to listen to the common sense of his own people. And do what they have been asking him to do..................

This whole circle of violence is nothing but a few leaders, on both sides, like Bush and OBL etc. trying to push their own political agenda. In it, they are supported by communalists, neo-cons, terrorists, etc. And the victims are innocent civilians (and innocent soldiers) on both sides.........

Luckily the debates I see on BBC are more sane than the debates I see on CNN. The USA commentators, want to use this attack to get the Brits riled up in support of USA`s invasions. They want the majority of Brits to, now, support the invasion. Not oppose it. The Rush Limbaughs and Bill O`Reillys are hard at work, now..........

However, I think the Brits will make the sane decision. They will actually put two and two together. And realize that this, unlike various other attacks, could have been avoided. And will encourage Blair, even more, now to listen to their opinions.............

We have seen three years of flag waving and loud rhetoric by Americans, on how they will crush this and destroy that. Did it solve any problems? Is the world safer today? Obviously no. To the point that evern the hard-core Republican leader, who switched French Fries to Freedom fries, is now asking for a timetable for withdrawl from Iraq.............

It is thus time to sideline the flag-wavers. They are a part of the problem, and not a part of the solution.........It is time for some sane thiking, outside the boundaries of religion and nationalism.................

Re: # 45

Romair, I am suggesting that Muslims have to make a choice. Either they defeat the forces of evil working in the name of Islam or see Islam destroyed in the process. Right now, in the eyes of the world, Muslim silence on the atrocities in London signifies a tacit approval of the terrorist acts. Muslims have to either walk the walk or simply shut up with talking the talk, because they have been proven as hypocrites; practicing violence but claiming peace unto others.

Muslims cannot have their cake and eat it too. Either the Muslims are against violence or they support violence; either the Muslims are for progress or they are for backwardness. Muslims now have a choice - swim with the rest of the world to a bright future or see the world cut them off as a dead weight and sink because they are not willing change with the time.

I understand that this a political problem, which not be solved with violence, but the Muslims who support such acts will not be convinced politically and thus, will have to be terminated, with exterme prejudice.

Romair, what I am suggesting is that time to sit on the fence is over. You have to decide where you stand on this issue. It is no longer about ideology; it is about decency and humanism.

Ciao

Ferozek #41: ``It is a time, when the Muslims who claim the benelovence of Islam, will have to stand up and retake their religion from the ones, who have held it hostage to violence, extermism, hate, anger, fear mongering, ignorance, intolerance, backwardness, reactionism and injustice.``

What exactly do you suggest?

I am quite wary of such emotional statements. These statements are quite similar to statements that one hears OBL make. He is also asking Muslims to stand up and retake their religion. The RSS is asking Hindus to stand up and retake their religion. The Israeli rabbis are doing the same. The Christian Evangelists are asking the Americans to stand up and retake their religion............

In such a scenario, with every group asking others, emotionally, to, ``retake`` religion, the only winner is violence. Religion is not a piece of furniture or a monetary loan that one can, ``take`` or, ``retake.`` Religion is not owned by anyone......

So, instead of encouraging people to take and retake, a better approach would be to discourage people to take and retake it. And to look at all these things outside the spectrum of religion. Do you really think that OBL has taken these actions due to some religious belief? Do you really think that Bush has taken his actions to liberate the Muslim world, or to make the Middle East safe for the second coming of Christ? Do you really think that RSS organized the Gujrat killings for religious purposes? etc.

All these are political phenomenons. Religion, in many of them, is just a vehicle that is being used. The easiest way to rile up a bunch of Christians is to tell them that it is the Muslims who are killing them. The easiest way to rile up a bunch of Muslims is to tell them it is a bunch of Christians killing them. Same for Hindus, Jews etc.

So perhaps a better approach and suggestion would be to ask the Muslims to retake their politics. And create a situation where neither their own leaders, nor the leaders of invading countries, can harm and occupy their citizens. And where no one can use their countries as a basis of harming other countries citizens, i.e they commit niether State terrorism, nor individual terrorism against anyone. Nor do they allow other countries to do so against them..........

So I doubt there is anything you can suggest that will stop OBL or anyone else from his agenda. Including retaking religion all one wants. However, I see OBL becoming more and more popular. He has turned into a cult figure of sorts. Everyone in Muslim countries he is a terrorist, yet their seems to be a certain support for him, since many Arabs see him as the only source trying to kill Americans, in the same proportion that the Arabs are getting killed. This, and not, religion is the source of its popularity.....I have a Christian Palestinian acquitance, who the other day, surprisingly declared OBL to be his hero. The guy is a Christian!!

So retaking religion is not the answer. This is a political problem. And it is politics that needs to be retaken. And the West could greatly assist in this, by not invading and bombing a Muslim country 24x7. It is actually in its own interest. Because every bomb it drops and every neo-con it elects and every communalist radio talk show host it generates, makes the live of OBL, that much easier.........And it make OBL`s word resonate far louder amongst the weaker amongst the Muslim society than the words of various other Muslims............

As I keep saying, all this flag-waving and this emotionalism is just going to make the circle of violence wider. The only victims will be the people who never wanted to be a part of this circle, and actually opposed it. Like the people of Iraq and London...........I think it is about time, some of the flag-wavers and gung-ho war enthusiats also started taking some responsibility for this violence.........

Re: # 49

``So the only hope maybe will be for people to quit following this religion on an individual basis as they become more educated/enlightened. Which, I`m afraid, sounds very far-fetched``

First of all, nothing is impossible and secondly; it might just come to this solution.

Ciao

Re: #41 by ferozk

Feroz, as I have said MANY times, it is only a small minority of muslims that have the jehadi mindset.

The rest 90% go along either due to fear of social ostracization, or becuase they see no alternative.

I can see that you belong to those who feel a reformation is required. And there are MANY like you that I have met.

Unfortunately, however, this is an impossible task, in my opinion.

You cannot reform Naziism, and still follow Mein Kampf and Hitler.

It`s simply not possible.

As long as the Quran is considered a Holy book, and Muhammad a holy man, there will be people reading what is written in that book, and following Muhammad`s personal example.

The ONLY way would be to tear whole chapters and verses out of the Quran, and radically rewrite MUhammad`s life history. And destroy ALL historical evidence.

And I think that would be impossible.

So the only hope maybe will be for people to quit following this religion on an individual basis as they become more educated/enlightened. Which, I`m afraid, sounds very far-fetched.

ajeya, mohar

Let`s give Ferozk and Romair an opportunity to discuss it out. If they reach a resolution that works for non Muslims, all of us will be better off!

re: Romair (various)

Romair, the point of my comments is that Muslims will, now, have to get involved in the fight. Muslims cannot let the western nations fight to save Islam, because then if the Muslims are not willing to fight to save Islam, then the cause of Islam is already lost. Either they fight politically or with armed force, the Muslims have to get involved and can no longer remain as idle spectators whining how the rest of the world misunderstands Islam.

Ciao

Re: #52 by ferozk

[First of all, nothing is impossible and secondly; it might just come to this solution]


I sincerely hope you are right. For the betterment of ALL of humanity and peace in the world.

Sorry for pasting duplicate info. from another board.. but found this relevant..

---

For those folks who are of the opinion the ``terrorists`` are misinterpreting Quran, the following verses from the Quran would clarify any doubts..

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): ``I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.``

008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Reference:
Holy Quran

Re: #54 by masanamuthu

I sometimes wonder how it is that people like Romair rationalize these verses (let alone the good Prophet’s exploits). What do they tell themselves, I wonder. How much lying to yourself do you have to do to maintain “faith” in the Quran and the good Prophet. And how do they do it?

Ajeya: #55

I addressed that to ``Romair`` in one of the previous boards about the ``hate speech`` found in Quran, but he ignored it..

Re: # 57

Ajeya

Your ``demonisation`` of the Islamic template is a route which many tread because it is de rigeur to do so. Why don`t you see all the amelioration which Islamic finance, its jurists, its scientists, its engineers have undertaken before rendering a slap-dash verdict on Islam.

Islam, much like other religions, condones improvement and the unfettered pursuit of knowledge. The Holy Quran states:

``Say-go through the earth and see how God hath brought forth all creation: hereafter will He give it another birth`` (29:20)

This verse exhorts all Muslims to discover, explore and improve what the earth has to offer.

What mother nature has dispensed.

So any claims that Islam is static is a cozy under-researched sweeping generalisation.
Circumstantial statements as opposed to evidence-based ones are perilous for they stand on shaky ground and mislead assumptions.

Ajeya you talk about ``cults`` why not obectively speaketh of the cult of ``baseless generalisation`` ?

RE: #56 by masanamuthu

I have thought about this.

I think that because just like any cult, since Islam eats into the soul of any culture, and becomes its only theme, Muslims CANNOT accept that EVERYTHING that their culture is based on (like all the religious events, communal prayers, feasting, fasting etc.) is based on this monstrosity.

Also there is the family and society angle. They probably think, if Islam is so bad, then how come my father, who was a fervent believer, was SUCH a good man? And my mother? And my siblings? Who I KNOW are good people? And all my relatives?

It is difficult to accept it.

What they don`t realize is that good people often are, and historically often have been, misled by any number of cults. And also that people generally unquestioningly follow the religion handed down to them, in EVERY religion in every part of the world. And Muslims do the same.

And then there is the question of religion being a mental crutch. Most human beings need a crutch, and what better than something familiar and comfortable?

So Romair types would always try to ignore any evidence that makes them feel uncomfortable and on unstable footing.

SR:

``If you accept that the barbaric act of killing innocent civilian Jews in Nazi Germany cannot be used by Israel as a justification today to commit atrocities on innocent Palastininan civilians,...``

...Could you please tell when did Israel do that, namely, use the killing of jews by nazis to justify atrocities on innocent Palistinians? Having used to justify the existence of a jewish state is not the same thing.
(from someone who is accused of being anti-jew on another board)

..But I do agree with the following statement:
``I sincerely doubt that we have reached the turning point. Just wait until the terrorists use their first WMD.``

...until then those who think that there is no need to lead protest marches against the sponsors of London attacks can live in their delusionary world.

Ferozek #51: ``Romair, the point of my comments is that Muslims will, now, have to get involved in the fight. Muslims cannot let the western nations fight to save Islam, because then if the Muslims are not willing to fight to save Islam, then the cause of Islam is already lost. Either they fight politically or with armed force``

What exactly are you suggesting? Should Muslim countries send their forces into Iraq? Should they send their forces into Afghanistan? What should they do?

All I can see is that they should denounce this act as terrorism. I would expect this to be the minimum standard for any human being. Be they Muslim or any other religion.

Other than that, in this whole GWOT there have been order of magnitude more Muslims killed than people of any other faith. The total number of Christians killed is roughly 6000 - 4000 in WTC + 1700 in Iraq + 300 in Spain + 50 in London.

The total number of Muslims killed is well over 100,000 now. In fact, the country that has faced the most attacks is Pakistan. It faced attacks like the one in London, multiple times. It`s President was targeted twice. It lost 500 soldiers on the Afghan border, alone. And has 170,000 troops deployed on the Afghan border (that is more than the Americans and Brits combined in Iraq).

I don`t even think Muslims can solve this by themselves. There were people like myself, who were arguing, at the top of their lungs, that the USA and UK should not attack Iraq. Because it would lead to circumstances like this. Did anyone listen? I had also argued that the USA should give the proof that it had against OBL to the Taliban, after which they were willing to hand him over. Did anyone listen? I also stated that instead of spending $200 billion bombing Iraq, the USA should spend a fraction of that (perhaps $20 billion) on rebuilding Afghanistan. Did anyone listen?

And I am arguing right now that instead of waving flags, the solution is to reduce this circle of violence, by starting to vacate Iraq. Is anyone going to listen? I doubt it. And I can make a bet another bomb will thus explode somewhere...........After which we will hear the same flag-waving rhetoric........

This is why I cannot figure out the emotional logic behind Muslims need to do this and do that. You are making it sound like a one-way street. As if someone just came a blew up a bomb in London, just to get his jollies. While his act cannot be justified, if one wants to avoid future attacks, one has to at least analyze his reasonings.........if for no other reasons then to save the lives of Londoners, in the future........

The only thing I can see that the Muslims can do is to convince the USA and UK to get out of Iraq. Which many Muslims, like myself are trying to do. Because that is the catalyst of this current terrorism in Europe, at least. Unless, of course, you think this was a random act. Unfortunately, people like myself end up running into too many gung-ho war enthusiasts on the other end, who keep wanting to continue their side of the killings, and are somehow miraculously hoping that there will be no blowback from that............

I have no clue how to solve such a situation, where one party wants to keep fighting, but it wants the other party to stop.........If you have any ideas, I am all ears.........

ferozk #36 Good to see your posts here as well, my friend. I have been fine, and hope all is well with you and yours as well.

There is no doubt about this ``battle for the soul of Islam``, the hour for which you say has arrived in Pakistan. I would say that this war has essentially been underway ever since maududi first came to pakistan and made politicization of Islam his major goal. I have attempted below to analyze the ``War Situation`` by breaking it down into various ``battlefields`` below, as follows:

1. The Battle of the Ballot Box: This is where the initial battles took place - in the voting booth. Islamists failed to capture the imagination of the average voter, and so suffered humiliating defeats. They gained ``second wind`` when musharaff rendered the mainstream parties headless while tilting elections in favor of islamists.

Current status: Civilized Society - 0. Jahil Society - 1.
Mainstream parties have been put in disarray by musharraf`s opposition to them. Masses remain suspicious of maulvis and somewhat resentful of military rule.

2. The Battle for the Officers Corps: Winning this battle is vital to prevent a complete route of Civilized Society from the forces of Jehaliyat. However, winning this battle does not win the war for Civilized Society - it merely secures a fatal breach in the wall. This battle has been taking place quietly, largely away from the public eye. Zia fired the first shot by elevating maulvi officers to key positions, including ISI. The traditional officer`s corps struck back after Zia`s death, and quietly and without fanfare removed these officers.

Current status: Civilized Society - 1. Jahil Society - 0. However, as noted, winning this Battle by Civilized society merely prevents a complete route of Civilized Society. Winning it does not mean a decisive victory - which can only take place when the Officers Corps themselves are made subservient to elected officials.

3. The Battle for Abdul`s Mind: (Abdul being hamidm`s term for the Poor Man in Pakistan). Again, Zia opened this battle by channeling funds from his below-the-line zikat tax funds and from the vast sums (as much as a few hundred million dollars every year) of saudi money to enlist boys from poor families in his struggle. These boys were shifted to madrassahs with promises of ``free education, room and board`` to their poverty stricken parents, then many of them trained to be cannon fodder by giving them dreams of becoming Rambo-like ``commandos``. However, the elimination of Afghanistan after 9/11 as a breeding ground for terrorism, and the peace moves on Kashmir, has brought an end to the policy of ``proxy wars``. Civilized society is now on the counterattack - with massive funds for poverty alleviation and education programs, and improved economic prospectsof Pakistan lending strength to this counterattack.

Current status: Civilized Society - 1. Jehaliyat - 0.

These are some key battlegrounds. Just thought I would spell these out.

further to #62 whoops. While the battles listed are the critical ones in the Armageddon you mention within Pakistan, the battle most immediately relevent from point of view of london bombings is of course the Battle of the Foreign Legion.

The foreign legion being the 2-3 million expatriate Pakistani community, which is part of a much larger muslim community (perhaps 10 million in the US, and as much as 10 percent of the population in france and some other european nations I think) that has developed in europe and US. This is a newly emerging battlefield, and I dont think the outcome is in doubt: most expatriate muslims are in fact too busy eduating itself and seeking to build careers and businesses to be interested in killing their fellow citizens. And even if they were, there is no way they could win - the US and the UK which have in the past shown their mettle against far more better organized and far more powerful oppponents (nazi germans, japanese, communists). And, as I said earlier, the G-8 summit showed that the rest of the civilized world (including french, germans as well as russia, india, china) are fully with them. So, time for even the most delusional expatriate ``muslim`` extremist to wake up and smell the coffee.

re: tahmed32 # 62 & 63

I would agree, with your comments.

Thanks for asking - I am fine as fine can be....


re: Romair # 61

Romair, I am not suggesting that the Muslim states send their armies into Iraq. If you would care to remember, I was and, am still, against the war in Iraq. Neither, am I, or was, suggesting that Muslims should invade Afghanistan. My comments were designed to impress the fact the Muslim will have to root out this evil, from within their societies, themselves. Muslims have to speak out against these groups and marginalize them and any failures on the part of the Muslims, to address this problem will have dire results.

The Muslims have a very simple choice. Either they root out the problem themselves or see the world root out the problem for them. I was suggesting that the Muslims do this job themselves, because if they delegate this chore to the world; I promise you that in the process of ending scourge of Islamic terrorism, the world will force a series of political reforms upon Islam, which no Muslim nation will be in a position to deny. Are you willing to accept that bargain?

The bottom line of my argument is: either the Muslims institute reforms in Islam or the world will reform Islam and neuter it. Muslims have to solve this by themselves and if they cannot; then they have no reason to gripe or whine or cry crocodile tears of being made an example, when world solves this problem. Right now, the Muslims have a choice, with wide reaching consequences - either they become a part of the solution or they will be seen as a part of the problem by the world; an impression, which is already gaining acceptance.

Secondly, Romair, what is wrong is wrong and cannot be hidden or explained or justified by the use of a common denominator of statistics indexed to a scale of comparative sufferings. It makes no difference, whether Pakistan has suffered more than London or more people died as result of the Anglo-American policies on Iraq and Afghanistan. The loss of linnocence life was terrible, but the idea of the future loss of innocence life is a more frightening prospect. There is not much, which can be done about the past, but the future can still be influneced. What is right is right regardless of the costs involved.

The point, Romair, which seems to escape your analysis, is a past wrong does not condone a future wrong. It is for this very reason that your oft quoted ``circle of violence`` will never shrink but will continue to expand if you play a mathematical game, which justifies violence on the basis of violence itself. In fact and in deed, the circle of violence will end only if the people, who engage in the acts of violence are removed from the equation and for that to happen, force might be required when diplomatic and political entreaties fail.

As to your arguments about ``analyzing his reasons...``, it still does not lessen the fact that Muslims and Muslim societies will have to still root out this evil. My reply to you is: let the west analyze his reasons and let the Muslim get on with the task of fighting their own battles in ending this problem.

I hope this post explains my reasons to you.

Ciao

Ajeya,

It is very difficult to persuade muslims to give up their religion voluntarily because they have to leave their way of life, family and friends. The only way to do it is to comprehensively and continuously defeat them all over the world, use overwhelming force to crush terrorism and use economic incentives to get them to convert to any non-muslim religion of their choice.

As a starter, here are some things that can be done:

a. Defeat muslims in Israel: Take everyone in Palestinian territories like Gaza and West Bank and shift them to Iraq. Iraq is relatively underpopulated and the Palestinians are Arabs who can fit in. This will lead to a clean solution in Israel, provide an all-arab homeland to Palestinians and eliminate the Palestinian issue forever.

b. Defeat muslims in Kashmir: The US along with India puts overwhelming pressure on Pakistan to unconditionally accept the status quo, make the LOC an international border and get rid of all Jihadi apparatus in Pakistan like LeT, JeM, Hizbul etc. If the US has to use threat of military force, so be it. India should then immediately open up J&K for internal migration and encourage people from other states to move there as China has done in Tibet, with the objective of changing the demographics.

c. Defeat muslims in Chechneya: The US should give free hand to the Russians to change the demographincs in Chechneya by scattering the muslims to other parts of Russia and move Russsians in to live there. If it needs to use extreme force for that, so be it.

d. Defeat muslims in Iraq: Here the US needs support from all nations including India. In fact India can help out US in Iraq in exchange for a favorable solution in Kashmir. The US needs to seal the borders of Iraq with Syria and Iran. That can be done with manpower from India and perhaps Turkey. Then it should carpet bomb the Sunni Triangle like it did in Dresden in WW2. Once the Sunni Triangle is finished, Iraq becomes stable.

e. Defeat muslims in the west: Here the US and other western nations need to seriously tighten immigration with strict border controls. Muslim immigrants in North America and Europe should be expelled to their home countries unless they convert to a non-muslim faith. Muslim citizens should be monitored closely, especially in mosques to make sure that they do not create trouble.

f. Defeat muslims in general: Here US should use religious organizations like the evangelists to join hands with other non-muslim faiths like hinduism and judaism to actively promote conversion among muslims. Special financial incentives can be offered to speed this up.

zeemax Re: # 66 {``...loss of any innocent life is sad. But these guys didn`t start it and once it is on, they won`t stop till they bring their perceived enemies to their knees,...``}

Okay, I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure what your stand really is... Are you speaking as a neutral observer who is making a comment on the situation as it exists, or are you saying that what is happening is justified because they did it first so they deserve it now?

If your stance is that of a neutral observer making an objective comment, I agree with you. If your stance is one of justification then I have nothing further to say except paraphrasing Ghandhi ji that an eye for an eye will eventually lead to a world full of blind people.

...SR

PS: Good to see you back from across the River Styx to the world of the living... :)

Re: # 66, Zeemax:-

````Soon the gypsy queen, in a glaze of vaseline, she`ll perform on guillotine, what a scene what a scene ! ````

Actually, here are the full lyric anyways:-

Welcome back, my friends
to the show that never ends.
We`re so glad you could attend!
Come inside! Come inside!

There behind a glass
stands a real blade of grass
be careful as you pass.
Move along! Move along!

Come inside, the show`s about to start
guaranteed to blow your head apart
Rest assured you`ll get your money`s worth
The greatest show it happens a hell-of-alot.

(Chorus)
You`ve got to see the show, it`s a dynamo.
You`ve got to see the show, it`s rock and roll

Right before your eyes,
We`ll pull laughter from the skies
And he laughs until he cries,
then he dies, then he dies

(repeat Chorus)

(Extended instrumental, mostly keyboard)

Soon the Gypsy Queen
in a glaze of Vaseline
Will perform on guillotine
What a scene! What a scene!
Next upon the stand
will you please extend a hand
to Alexander`s Ragtime Band
Dixieland, Dixieland

Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!
See the show!

Performing on a stool
we`ve a sight to make you drool
Seven virgins and a mule
Keep it cool. Keep it cool.
We would like it to be known
the exhibits that were shown
were exclusively our own,
All our own. All our own.

Come and see the show!
Come and see the show!
Come and see the show!
See the show!

See the shoooowwwwwww!

(lyrics courtesy Emerson Lake & Palmer)

#59 by SR

{This perverse logic that employs the sins of the father argument is extremely dubious. Karma some might call it, but it is apologism in poor taste.}

Point well taken. However it is neither perverse, nor dubious ... it is simply strategy to win a war (You ``do`` think it is a war, don`t you? Or do you think it is merely a law and order situation !).

In any war you chose targets with the most payoff and minimum input, be it hard or soft targets. Unfortunately, civilians have been established since long as routine targets as you point out the historical occasions, though you can add Attlila the Hun, Alexander and so forth to the list!

What was barbarism and butchery in Attila`s times was legitimized in