Reforms! What Reforms?

Re: # 20

It is the general trend in modern academics that is disturbing. Many individuals do produce original work. But you must agree that the vast majority of people in sub-continent do not give scientific work the respect that it deserves. It is not just a matter of ``grands`` that one makes and the ``millions`` in funding that one wins.

Since WWII universities all over the wolrd have gone through a process of democratization. Anyone with a high school diploma and a credit card can land in a university. IIT is atleast fair in this sense.

I remember that there were seven huge libraries in my university. And students did not have time or motivation even to open the text books. Then there were grades for class attendence and so on. Forced intellectual labor. What`s the point.

Only by raising the intellectual bar can we maintain the prestige of higher learning. Everyone should have access to university. The sophistication of the course work should make the cruisers run away.

Entrance exams do prepare people in some way as they have to study for them. But a computer can be programmed to do them as well. The power of characterization is the true merit for university. We cannot capture it in GRE or SAT.

There should be no watered down course work. The first year of university should be like a grad course. If people need preparation, then they should spend more time studying by themselves or in high school. Universities cannot offord to bend down to serve the high school role.

Hoodbhoy

You are an idealist. Let us say 50% is being eaten up by education wallas. Every one else is eating as well. Even if the remaining 50% gets spent, that is a big improvement from the past.

But the most scary aspect is:
(This is a research project worth an astonishing rupees 5,581,000 (Rs 5.6 million) and is titled as ``Quranization of Science Courses At The M.Sc Level``)

Are we now officially into Talibanization? It is 21st Century. Leave the holy scripture sacred and for spiritual needs only; and not drag it into Laboritories for political purposes. It was never intended to be a book of science.

nhk

This article sort of makes you laugh. I know Dr. Ata`s got a task on his hands. But it seems the basics are out of his reach and have not been set right yet.

Metrics, standards, gauges...you have to set those right before pushing through all this money. That would be a better way.

Re: # 16

Yes, Idea of exchanging knowledge is good. But looking at the low standards of research in both countries, I doubt it is going to benefit both of us in terms of research output. It will help us coming nearer to each other, understanding each other and having peace. But it doesn`t seem to result in very good research. I was just looking at some data about standard of research in various countries. With respect to research paper`s ouput India and China both make ino top 20 but when it comes to citations/paper (research standards); it is 2.5/paper and 3.0/paper respectively as compared to about 11 for US and 9 or 10 for european countries. That means, there is a lot of garbage coming out of socalled developing countries in the name of research. I rather support the idea of increasing links with international universities and multinationals by sending the messages that research in our countries is cheaper.


Panini Said: So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).

Agreed to an extent. But look, Dr Hoodbhoy trying to correct the system is sending wrong signals to outside world. With his article, he is unknowingly creating stereotyped image of Paistani students. Most of HEC scholar coming abroad are Engineering Graduates. Dr Sahib is a physics professor. How he is generalizing the situation so easily. If situation is bad in Pakistan in theoratical physics, it doesn`t mean it is bad in all other fields. One thing is very clear, Top of the students either join medecine or engineering in Pakistan. Physics doesn`t earn them enough money and so the ones who don`t get admissions in any of the engineering university go to the physics departments. In such a situation, doctor sahib is dealing with weaker lot of students and then brutally generalizing the situation.

Re: # 22....ahmedmadani

This year Mc Kinsey has taken an IITM student on Rs 7.5 lakh remuneration. Similarly top IT companies like Infosys, Wipro, Samsung, Oracle have taken good numbers this year with average salary ranging between Rs 3.5 to Rs 4 lakh.``(350,000.00/400,000.00)


http://www.dqindia.com/content/industrymarket/schools/2004/104052507.asp

http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/jalote/GenArticles/StudentFacultyRatio.html

http://ibef.org/artdisplay.aspx?cat_id=433&art_id=6278

I`m just a graduate of the Louisiana state univ. system.Hopefully, an IIT grad( i doubt it) who trolls this site will respond.You can google a lot of info too.

Re: # 24

Oh So many typos. ``T`` key of my keyboard is not working well plus I didn`t read once again to press ``Submit``. I hope everything will be understandable.

Re: # 19

Shobig! I fear that we have serious differences of opinion here. Let`s start one by one.

Shobg Said: I am not against that, but I am sure, if you are impartial, you can count on fingers the number of students amongst these 150 who really deserved that.

Reply: Trying to be fully impartial, I tell you that there are so many good studens among HEC scholarship holders. Looking at the performance o last year HEC scholars, I can tell you many of them topped their universities. I am always happy to see performance of those guys. Some of them are coming from even very lowly ranked universities in Pakistan. In some courses having less amoun of mahematics, they don`t feel any difficulty adjusting themselves. In the mathematics based courses, they face difficult times but with 3/4 months, they come on the right track. One of my batch mate who topped at an MS program in Imperial College, his proessor told him that Souh Asians are very bad at mathematics. and he gave an example of an IIT topper how he struggled for good grades in mathematics based subjects.

HEC Doesn`t have any magical stick with which can they put more talent in Pakisanis. For faculty training programs, they select faculty members. In open schemes, there is a nationwide competiton. Who wins, ges the scholarship. Out of the studens coming on HEC scholarship, most of hem belong to middle class/lower middle class proving that HEC programs are quie fair. Now i there is any person who considers himself more talented, he should come up and compete with others.

HEC is not the only scholarship left in the country. If you are good enough, you have good grades, goid GRE scors, ask some reputed professor for good recomendation. Voila! You get admission in any good university in the world. Nobody can stop the real talent from being recognised. Losers alwaysz complain, talk of unfair play.

Shobig Said : Majority of such students are there coz of HEC`s bias and favour towards them or their supervisors, or their institute.

Reply : Nops. Open tests are held for HEC schlarship open scheme. SUPARCO, NDC, KRL etc send their employees on their own expenses. If HEJ has more students studying abroad, it might be because of good standard o the institutre. Atta Ur Rehman is one of the best scientists in chemistry in the world. Being editor of almost dozen internaional journals, publishing 600 papers, getting so many awrads for his scientific contributions, the guys recommendations work. Let`s suppose i he recommends top 5 students from HEJ, do you think there are any chances for those students being rejected.


Shobig Said: we all know, at least we two after 14-16 years of education there, how the system works in Pakistani borads of education and Universities, rather it`s more a matter of intelligence, competence and intellectual approach...which is not even considered in any of the local `selection procedures`. Also, do you think a Masters degree holder from PU or QAU can compete with a graduate from a European country, in terms of knowledge?...not even by 10%! Reforms need to brought about at the lower level first...then we can perceive of any advancement at the higher level.

Reply: Graduate programs in our universities are weak because best of the students from undergrduate courses opt for studies abroad. In an MS program at UET, I saw so many students being enrolled. Before the start of second semester, session was reduced to half students because rest of them found admissions in western universities and quit MS program in Pakistan. Everybody knows Brand Names work well in Pakistan. A very good graduate student from Pakistani universiy and a bad graduate from western university, people prefer bad graduate from farangi world because of the brand name. In this situation, who is silly enough to take admission in a grad program in Pakistan.

In my honest opinion, excellent MS level program can be managed in Pakistan. In so many fields, we don`t need a lot of money for sudies and research. Many fields in the research need good brains, and a cheap computer, access to research material o research journals/socities, facility to print as many articles as one wants, a pencil and few pages, a few simulation softwares (and industry is always willing to give their tools to researchers at very cheap prices if assured that serious research work is being done). In Pakistan, it is not really difficult to have all these. Only thing that the grad students need more is the assurance that if they are technically good, their abilities will be recognized properly. but it will not hapen easily. Pakistanis have some complexes with them. Some of them deliberately want to keep the status quo working, others are impressed with Mc Donald universitiues. Nobody will be willing to accept that students from a local university can study well.

I am soirry, I am toitally offtopic. I have a lot to say about the original topic being discussed. I will write on it laters.

Re: # 17 Why do i smell something burning? :P

How much IIT professors make per month? What other additional benefits they get ?
What average IIT Bsc engg makes when he starts his job?
Figures can tell the real situation? Any indian has information

This is general comment.
PhD is fraud as most PhDs of India by their own data is dismil. Most are PhDs in social science or politics like caste, religion, islamic studies and hindu religion, journalism, dance, sait literature. Also its better to have proper bachelors degree studied than graduate. Atleast they should not be bankrolled by our pakistani govt monies/ as all graduate go to foreign countries. Its like pouring water in bucket which has hole. As only is done so to exist Lahore/karachi to go tograduate study and go to london and newyork.
I support all who want to go as its natural to seek good opportunities , being born in one country does not mean one should be loyal as romantic utopia.

re: # 14

Gee, now you are making me feel like a fool. Some of us spent a few years actually writing what were said to be quite original works. :(

And from ASU to Pakistan/India for grad work? Any ASU math alum may want to explain this decision.

Re: # 3 Charlie, OK, send more abroad, import as much uptodate knowledge as you can, that`s the order of the day in most developing countries... I am not against that, but I am sure, if you are impartial, you can count on fingers the number of students amongst these 150 who really deserved that. Majority of such students are there coz of HEC`s bias and favour towards them or their supervisors, or their institute. Within the last single year, I have seen dozen students arriving in Europe for PhDs in chemistry, on one of the scholarship programs of the HEC, most of them are from HEJ....and I think you can figure out well why they have to be in Chemistry or from HEJ!
And it`s not about academic excellence, we all know, at least we two after 14-16 years of education there, how the system works in Pakistani borads of education and Universities, rather it`s more a matter of intelligence, competence and intellectual approach...which is not even considered in any of the local `selection procedures`. Also, do you think a Masters degree holder from PU or QAU can compete with a graduate from a European country, in terms of knowledge?...not even by 10%! Reforms need to brought about at the lower level first...then we can perceive of any advancement at the higher level.

Re: # 16 Great post. We desperatley need exchange of knowledge across the borders.
best

Re: # 16

Where do you teach?.At Grambling state U??.Phony indian crap.

Unlike most readers of Chowk who have responded to Professor Hoodbhoy with pessimism and lack of hope, let me say that I am invigorated by his article. He has identified problems, and he has pointed to solutions. I do not believe that he claims his solutions are the best or that they will necessarily work. But he has proposed them nevertheless. This is a good starting point.

As a South Asian, I am particularly attracted to his idea of a mingling or a reciprocal movement of teachers and students across South Asian borders. What a wonderful idea! I think that the most important outcome of such exchanges will be the improvement of relations and the possibility of lasting peace. Of course, we will also exchange ideas, teach, and learn from one another. But that is long term, pie-in-the-sky, and dreaming.

So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).

I am afraid that is the way it is. For me, his word is enough. As an Indian, let me point out that there is no academic I know of in India who I respect more than Professor Hoodbhoy. In that sense, I believe India is going through a crisis about as bad as Pakistan. I have, with no exceptions, declined to hire Indian students who applied to my research program, simply because I believe they were poorly prepared and lacked english skills (the same problems identified by Professor Hoodbhoy with some students at QAU). Perhaps there are good students going elsewhere, but I am certainly not seeing them at my University. And never mind the IITs. I am from one of them, and I know what I am saying. Other than in commerce and business and finance, very few IIT graduates have made fundamental contributions to Engineering (Narendra Karmarkar being the only exception perhaps). So, for an institution that has produced nearly 100,000 graduates in the last fifty years or so, we have very little to show for the attention devoted to us.

In teaching and research, education is secondary to scholarship. Time and again people forget this. An education teaches people to read and write, and gives them a degree, and teaches them a trade at best. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not enough to bootstrap a society into producing more teachers and academics. Graduating Ph.Ds at a frantic pace is not a substitute for real scholarship. Scholarship is about thinking and analyzing. Scholarship is about making people think, and about creating thinkers. Professor Hoodbhoy is asking for scholars, and he is demanding scholarship. His demand is reasonable. Let us, Indians and Pakistanis alike, listen to the man. Do!

Panini

#14 by Mathematiker on July 8, 2005 9:49pm PT

I will make him read your artical

HAHA.Yo, Arizona State U, check out his by one of your alums!!.Indian institutions of higher learning are recognized because of their lofty academic standards.Not as this `learned` gentleman alludes.The fact that our IIT`s, IIM`s and research institutes our funded by our babus(public exchequer) is a testament to India.Dont make `funny` comments about other countries , and then feel slighted when others respond.Put your own house in order first.