Reforms! What Reforms?

Great article. I couldn`t agree more with your sentiments. It`s no wonder that many of the young `brains` in our country are going abroad to places like America, Canada, Europe and even East Asia (e.g. Singapore) for a higher education which has value and potential. Many of them won`t return since intellectual integrity and creativity aren`t fostered in our country to the extent they are in other places.

// fahd

I agree with all the statements that he said and want to add that what will happen when we will be getting this much ``PhD`` every year. What they all be doing?
In computers a term GIGO is used means ``Garbege In Gargabe Out``. I think something like this is happening. A ``supervisor`` like this will produce ``future supervisors`` all have the same problems.
Moreover Pakistan does not have faculty in fields like Computer Science. So PhD in such fields from a local university is a complete waste of time and money.

Just a few days back, almost 100 PhD Students arrived here in France. They are all sponsored by HEC for a duration of four years on 1200 dollars/month.

That means: 1200 x 12x 4 = 57600 dollars per person + Charges for admission (consultants dealing with HEC for that) and lab facilities etc.

Next year, number of PhD scholarships are planned to be more than 150. All of these people have filled a bond that they will return to Pakistan and serve there for five years atleast. (Many of them are faculty members from Pakistani Universities).

In other countries also, HEC is managing similar programs.

Now Imagining that, 50 % of these people will return back after their studies. Morally, 100 % should return as a poor governmet is spending so much on them. And 50 % of returning PhDs learn something positive from the work going on in western world, I am optimist enough to see some positive changes in our universities in near future.

Dr Hoodbhoy has really described a bad situation in Pakistani universities. He is right to an extent. But reading through his article, one can easily judge that he is being an idealist. While being an idealist is a good thing, it is certainly not good to be a pessimistic person after realizing that things are not ideal. (I remember, he visited India sometime back, wrote an article over some negative aspects of Indian universities and Indians on the forum were angry how he dared to object the system there.)

In 98, when I entered the university, I never listened of MoST and HEC. None of my seniors knew about the scholarships for higher studies. Now, since Dr Atta`s times, it is very easy to arrange money for higher studies. I accept that so many Toms, Dicks and Harrys are getting chances for higher studies but I also know that there are many intelligent people also getting benefit of this money. Certainly, situation is much better than it was before 1999. Although, I accept that this money can be used more intellligently.

And I am shocked to see that South Asia Tribune is using Dr Sahib`s articles to prove that government is being corrupt in Education sector. As a matter of fact, HEC is not corrupt. It is less efficient (according to Dr Sahib`s Standards). But it is more efficient than any other government organization in Pakistan.

Good analysis.

there are a few things I wuld like to add though:

entrance tests for IIT`s known as Joint Entrance Exams(JEE) are really competitive and filter out students who do not have the capacity and understanding to do well further. But it is still at an undergraduate level. Many of them go abroad for higher education. Mostly students from other institutions go to IIT`s for advanced degress and eventually go abroad too.
Hence even though B.S. level education is good, M.S., Ph.D. level needs improvement.

Regarding GRE tests, having subject wise would be better. Many of the science disciplines admit students with a general test, which doesn`t relate tot he students knowledge about the specific subject but only Analytical, verbal and Quantitative skills. And there is no correlation b/t GRE scores (general) and a persons knowledge about the subject.

Excellent article, a real eye-openner.
Agreed, many so-called reforms are being introduced by the HEC, but the real dilemma remains, that it `s sheer emphasis is on quantity rather than quality. As Dr Hoodbhoy correctly pointed out, the Rs 5000 allowance being offered to the supervisors for every PhD student, only impells them into taking as many students into their supervision as they can, and thats only in balck and white. These supervisors at the same time, have to teach under-graduate classes (even if they bother to do that aptly), and that leaves them little or no time to focus on a couple of students, let alone dozens of them. The result is obvious, incompetent students, who are only intersted in the Rs 5,6, or 7 thousand stipend they get from the HEC, and have no real enthusiasm to gain knowledge. And those who do retain that, lose it in the long run owing to the lack of supervision and academic competition and competence.
The imbalance in the allocation of money to different sectors, is also rampant. HEc`s major focus for the last few years has been IT. So much so that there was such a huge lot of IT students in the very irst year of the program, that more than 80% of the graduates belonging to the very second lot remained un employed, so ultimately had to switch to some other descipline.
On the other hand, a barely noticeable attention is being payed to `promotion` of pure scinces, promotion as in advanced faculty, instead of advanced technology. The accelerators being installed or being planned in the coming years are useless if their are no technicians to work at them, and no proper physicists to extract any uselfull data from them. In this age of LHC, probing into the energy range of 14 TeV, a Van de graff accelerator of mere 5MeV, is pointless and an absolute wastage of money. Instead of giving away so many `indigeneous scholarships` in the field of IIt, resulting in the saturation of students yeilding degrees int hsi category, the emphasis should be on proper and proportionate allocation of money and advancement of reseach in pure sciences, which are at the verge of extinction in Pakistan.
The conditions are severely deplorable in the Pakistan education system, from the base to the top, no doubt.

Netizen #4: There is something I have always wanted to find out. How are Indian universities able to keep their teaching faculty........?

I don`t know much about other depts in Pakistani universities, but I do know something about CS. And in CS, the problem in Pakistan is lack of faculty. The students are there, the building is there, the equipment is generally there, even the good jobs are there. But there is no faculty..........

The only institutions that have been able to keep faculty are in the military, due to strict laws and bonds. And universities like LUMS, which pay a phenomenally high salary to the faculty.

GIK was one of the fastest rising Engineering colleges in Asia. Within a few years of its formation, it was ranked 9th in Asia, ahead of some of the IITs. However, it has moved down now, because it started losing faculty. I as looking at the faculty salary of GIK and IIT, at the time when a lot of GIK professors started leaving, and it turns out they were getting paid more than IIT professors. And they were, at that time, in a young institution, which was ranked so high in Asia. Yet they still left, to the point that the GIK students even had a strike, complaining about the faculty leaving...........

Re: #3 Charlie

By looking at
http://chowk.com/show_interactor_page.cgi?membername=Charlie

it seems quite fair to infer ur bias towards HEC as a result of ur free ticket to the farangi land.

Anyway, enjoy ur stay !

Re: # 4

I never had a lot of exposure in higher learning in india. i left the country after B.S. In u.s. where the prof has to work hard/smart and receive grants to get tenure, in india i don`t think there is any tenure system. Once hired you stay in the college. Prof in my colleges got a decent salary, no job pressure, no research, just teaching and lab even though some of them had Ph.D`S with 10-15 yrs of teaching exp. In premier institutes like the iit, iim, iisc, may be the prestige of being a prof. also plays some role, with some research activity going on. the iits are autonomus and fought severly to maintian it. may be that it gives more control over policies and doesn`t frustate the profs/administrators.
Do you see paucity of profs in some institute or is it prevalent throughout the country? are these people going to the private sector or leaving the country? I think just having good salary is not the only motivating factor to keep a good prof. Some value the surroundng atmosphere like individual thinking, encouragement in research, career prospects. It could be a sum of all these.

Re: # 7

Well! I have the scholarship of government of France. I didn`t get a single penny of HEC. All I said was what I saw from the students coming abroad in recent years. And no doubt, HEC is working well.

While people like prof Hoodbhoy criicise the system very easily, they always fail to propose an alternative solution implementable practically. Being idealistic is fine, spreading pessimism is not.

Romair
its a pure numbers game. the number of graduates is high so number who want to hang around is high and they produce high number of students. this machine was primed once and its in motion.

getting a prof job in iits etc is very hard.. you need a good degree, not from that IIT, and post doc experience. getting eq. of tenure is also hard..incl a lot of peer pressure. iit professors have nice lifestyle (a nice house, campus facilities) and make good money with conmsulting and summer work with MNCs and/or foreign univs/lab (e.g. IBM s Watson Lab).

Third tier engg colleges faculty in india plain sucks. those who cannot find a real job, teach in these colleges.. most students join private classes to understand thermodynamics and maxwells equations.

IT is the easy one.. in india, except computer science, we think IT needs little education ;-)
many hydrabadis i know personally have ``faked`` it into IT and learned on the job...e.g. QA, or scripts etc.

HEC pays to study aborad? this sucks..indian govt never did it ... even to study in russia..i was always jelous of turkish grad students and harare foundation lebanese who had fat wallets while the indians were always PIGS (poor indian grad student).

Re: # 6
Romair:

Aah IITs... In my days, like me, there were at least 30 to 40 students in my batch EE and Mech Eng. out 180 students who had gotten into IITs but decided to join DCE (Delhi College of Engineering) instead. Something that would never happen today. Vinod Dham, of Intel/Pentium fame, was one year junior to me at DCE to give a perspective of the class of DCE. In 1965, IITs were still not the brand it is now. Although it has been made a brand by graduating classes of my generation. I have life long friendship with several of IIT graduates of my generation who have indeed made it in their fields. We often discuss key success factors of IITs. All agree that the creme-de-la-creme of student body due to strict meritocracy at IIT attracts and selects is unsurpassed and uncorrptible. It is possible at Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale to be from connected family, legacy family etc. to get admitted. But at IITs admission is based on pure and simple meritocracy. This student body is very bright, which can probably be taught by a Havaldar of Indian Army and still shine. It is the success of IIT student body that now attracts the faculty and make them stick there. Especially those Professors who can take intellectual challenge and brainiac lashings from the student / nerds in the class, reward for them is the prestige of teaching at IITs.

Anil

Netizen/Anil/jang # thanks for the info..........

``Do you see paucity of profs in some institute or is it prevalent throughout the country? are these people going to the private sector or leaving the country? ``

I don`t know about the sectors. I think medicine is very well staffed. A lot of good doctors want to teach at the top medical colleges. The engineering side seems shaky. Specifically CS. In CS, everyone goes abroad. This has become furthur shaky now that a lot of students have switched to telecom, due to the massive growth in this sector in Pakistan. Pakistan is going through a huge telecom revolution. But it has not had a software revolution........

Somehow or the other Pakistan will have to attract and keep CS professors. You would be surprised to hear the salaries of LUMS professors. Most other universities cannot pay nearly, as much.

The best solution would be to bring in professors from India............I cannot really think of any other solution. Or try to mass import all Pakistani Ph.Ds who are abroad, somehow........

Professor Hoodbhoy your artical was an eyeopener. My dad wants me to do my grad school in mathematics in Pakistan. I will make him read your artical. I must share with you that your university disqualifies me for the masters program since I have a four year degree, and they only require a two year degree. This is funny. I was educated by mathematicians from all over the world at Arizona State University.

Even in USA a lot of bogus Phd.s are produced. Specially in computer science and engineering. I have seen many masters thesis being prepared. Basically you download them from the internet. Then you use powerpoint. Thats all. Pakistani, Indian, and chinese are more prone to do such things because they are using education as a flying carpet for social mobility. They pursue the grand theme and dream of the Indian subcontinent, ``Rajoo ban giya gentleman``.

Once upon a time universities were places of reverence and endeavor. Every reasonable scientist was half philosopher. Even high school students read literary unabridged works in two or three languages. The more academically inclined would read Homer.

Now a seventh grader start preparing for enterance exams. Someone wants to get in IIT, someone has to get in GIK, and others to Harvard or Oxford. Students take up hobbies since they look good in the admission application.

We are producing Seabiscuits not academics.

#14 by Mathematiker on July 8, 2005 9:49pm PT

I will make him read your artical

HAHA.Yo, Arizona State U, check out his by one of your alums!!.Indian institutions of higher learning are recognized because of their lofty academic standards.Not as this `learned` gentleman alludes.The fact that our IIT`s, IIM`s and research institutes our funded by our babus(public exchequer) is a testament to India.Dont make `funny` comments about other countries , and then feel slighted when others respond.Put your own house in order first.

Unlike most readers of Chowk who have responded to Professor Hoodbhoy with pessimism and lack of hope, let me say that I am invigorated by his article. He has identified problems, and he has pointed to solutions. I do not believe that he claims his solutions are the best or that they will necessarily work. But he has proposed them nevertheless. This is a good starting point.

As a South Asian, I am particularly attracted to his idea of a mingling or a reciprocal movement of teachers and students across South Asian borders. What a wonderful idea! I think that the most important outcome of such exchanges will be the improvement of relations and the possibility of lasting peace. Of course, we will also exchange ideas, teach, and learn from one another. But that is long term, pie-in-the-sky, and dreaming.

So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).

I am afraid that is the way it is. For me, his word is enough. As an Indian, let me point out that there is no academic I know of in India who I respect more than Professor Hoodbhoy. In that sense, I believe India is going through a crisis about as bad as Pakistan. I have, with no exceptions, declined to hire Indian students who applied to my research program, simply because I believe they were poorly prepared and lacked english skills (the same problems identified by Professor Hoodbhoy with some students at QAU). Perhaps there are good students going elsewhere, but I am certainly not seeing them at my University. And never mind the IITs. I am from one of them, and I know what I am saying. Other than in commerce and business and finance, very few IIT graduates have made fundamental contributions to Engineering (Narendra Karmarkar being the only exception perhaps). So, for an institution that has produced nearly 100,000 graduates in the last fifty years or so, we have very little to show for the attention devoted to us.

In teaching and research, education is secondary to scholarship. Time and again people forget this. An education teaches people to read and write, and gives them a degree, and teaches them a trade at best. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not enough to bootstrap a society into producing more teachers and academics. Graduating Ph.Ds at a frantic pace is not a substitute for real scholarship. Scholarship is about thinking and analyzing. Scholarship is about making people think, and about creating thinkers. Professor Hoodbhoy is asking for scholars, and he is demanding scholarship. His demand is reasonable. Let us, Indians and Pakistanis alike, listen to the man. Do!

Panini