Reforms! What Reforms?
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 8, 2005
#13 Posted by Romair on July 8, 2005 7:45:41 pm
Netizen/Anil/jang # thanks for the info..........
``Do you see paucity of profs in some institute or is it prevalent throughout the country? are these people going to the private sector or leaving the country? ``
I don`t know about the sectors. I think medicine is very well staffed. A lot of good doctors want to teach at the top medical colleges. The engineering side seems shaky. Specifically CS. In CS, everyone goes abroad. This has become furthur shaky now that a lot of students have switched to telecom, due to the massive growth in this sector in Pakistan. Pakistan is going through a huge telecom revolution. But it has not had a software revolution........
Somehow or the other Pakistan will have to attract and keep CS professors. You would be surprised to hear the salaries of LUMS professors. Most other universities cannot pay nearly, as much.
The best solution would be to bring in professors from India............I cannot really think of any other solution. Or try to mass import all Pakistani Ph.Ds who are abroad, somehow........
``Do you see paucity of profs in some institute or is it prevalent throughout the country? are these people going to the private sector or leaving the country? ``
I don`t know about the sectors. I think medicine is very well staffed. A lot of good doctors want to teach at the top medical colleges. The engineering side seems shaky. Specifically CS. In CS, everyone goes abroad. This has become furthur shaky now that a lot of students have switched to telecom, due to the massive growth in this sector in Pakistan. Pakistan is going through a huge telecom revolution. But it has not had a software revolution........
Somehow or the other Pakistan will have to attract and keep CS professors. You would be surprised to hear the salaries of LUMS professors. Most other universities cannot pay nearly, as much.
The best solution would be to bring in professors from India............I cannot really think of any other solution. Or try to mass import all Pakistani Ph.Ds who are abroad, somehow........
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#14 Posted by Mathematiker on July 8, 2005 9:49:56 pm
Professor Hoodbhoy your artical was an eyeopener. My dad wants me to do my grad school in mathematics in Pakistan. I will make him read your artical. I must share with you that your university disqualifies me for the masters program since I have a four year degree, and they only require a two year degree. This is funny. I was educated by mathematicians from all over the world at Arizona State University.
Even in USA a lot of bogus Phd.s are produced. Specially in computer science and engineering. I have seen many masters thesis being prepared. Basically you download them from the internet. Then you use powerpoint. Thats all. Pakistani, Indian, and chinese are more prone to do such things because they are using education as a flying carpet for social mobility. They pursue the grand theme and dream of the Indian subcontinent, ``Rajoo ban giya gentleman``.
Once upon a time universities were places of reverence and endeavor. Every reasonable scientist was half philosopher. Even high school students read literary unabridged works in two or three languages. The more academically inclined would read Homer.
Now a seventh grader start preparing for enterance exams. Someone wants to get in IIT, someone has to get in GIK, and others to Harvard or Oxford. Students take up hobbies since they look good in the admission application.
We are producing Seabiscuits not academics.
Even in USA a lot of bogus Phd.s are produced. Specially in computer science and engineering. I have seen many masters thesis being prepared. Basically you download them from the internet. Then you use powerpoint. Thats all. Pakistani, Indian, and chinese are more prone to do such things because they are using education as a flying carpet for social mobility. They pursue the grand theme and dream of the Indian subcontinent, ``Rajoo ban giya gentleman``.
Once upon a time universities were places of reverence and endeavor. Every reasonable scientist was half philosopher. Even high school students read literary unabridged works in two or three languages. The more academically inclined would read Homer.
Now a seventh grader start preparing for enterance exams. Someone wants to get in IIT, someone has to get in GIK, and others to Harvard or Oxford. Students take up hobbies since they look good in the admission application.
We are producing Seabiscuits not academics.
#15 Posted by cayenne on July 9, 2005 1:37:14 am
#14 by Mathematiker on July 8, 2005 9:49pm PT
I will make him read your artical
HAHA.Yo, Arizona State U, check out his by one of your alums!!.Indian institutions of higher learning are recognized because of their lofty academic standards.Not as this `learned` gentleman alludes.The fact that our IIT`s, IIM`s and research institutes our funded by our babus(public exchequer) is a testament to India.Dont make `funny` comments about other countries , and then feel slighted when others respond.Put your own house in order first.
I will make him read your artical
HAHA.Yo, Arizona State U, check out his by one of your alums!!.Indian institutions of higher learning are recognized because of their lofty academic standards.Not as this `learned` gentleman alludes.The fact that our IIT`s, IIM`s and research institutes our funded by our babus(public exchequer) is a testament to India.Dont make `funny` comments about other countries , and then feel slighted when others respond.Put your own house in order first.
#17 Posted by cayenne on July 9, 2005 1:40:18 am
Re: # 16
Where do you teach?.At Grambling state U??.Phony indian crap.
Where do you teach?.At Grambling state U??.Phony indian crap.
#18 Posted by shobig_sifar on July 9, 2005 5:59:45 am
Re: # 16 Great post. We desperatley need exchange of knowledge across the borders.
best
best
#27 Posted by Charlie on July 9, 2005 4:12:32 pm
Re: # 16
Yes, Idea of exchanging knowledge is good. But looking at the low standards of research in both countries, I doubt it is going to benefit both of us in terms of research output. It will help us coming nearer to each other, understanding each other and having peace. But it doesn`t seem to result in very good research. I was just looking at some data about standard of research in various countries. With respect to research paper`s ouput India and China both make ino top 20 but when it comes to citations/paper (research standards); it is 2.5/paper and 3.0/paper respectively as compared to about 11 for US and 9 or 10 for european countries. That means, there is a lot of garbage coming out of socalled developing countries in the name of research. I rather support the idea of increasing links with international universities and multinationals by sending the messages that research in our countries is cheaper.
Panini Said: So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).
Agreed to an extent. But look, Dr Hoodbhoy trying to correct the system is sending wrong signals to outside world. With his article, he is unknowingly creating stereotyped image of Paistani students. Most of HEC scholar coming abroad are Engineering Graduates. Dr Sahib is a physics professor. How he is generalizing the situation so easily. If situation is bad in Pakistan in theoratical physics, it doesn`t mean it is bad in all other fields. One thing is very clear, Top of the students either join medecine or engineering in Pakistan. Physics doesn`t earn them enough money and so the ones who don`t get admissions in any of the engineering university go to the physics departments. In such a situation, doctor sahib is dealing with weaker lot of students and then brutally generalizing the situation.
Yes, Idea of exchanging knowledge is good. But looking at the low standards of research in both countries, I doubt it is going to benefit both of us in terms of research output. It will help us coming nearer to each other, understanding each other and having peace. But it doesn`t seem to result in very good research. I was just looking at some data about standard of research in various countries. With respect to research paper`s ouput India and China both make ino top 20 but when it comes to citations/paper (research standards); it is 2.5/paper and 3.0/paper respectively as compared to about 11 for US and 9 or 10 for european countries. That means, there is a lot of garbage coming out of socalled developing countries in the name of research. I rather support the idea of increasing links with international universities and multinationals by sending the messages that research in our countries is cheaper.
Panini Said: So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).
Agreed to an extent. But look, Dr Hoodbhoy trying to correct the system is sending wrong signals to outside world. With his article, he is unknowingly creating stereotyped image of Paistani students. Most of HEC scholar coming abroad are Engineering Graduates. Dr Sahib is a physics professor. How he is generalizing the situation so easily. If situation is bad in Pakistan in theoratical physics, it doesn`t mean it is bad in all other fields. One thing is very clear, Top of the students either join medecine or engineering in Pakistan. Physics doesn`t earn them enough money and so the ones who don`t get admissions in any of the engineering university go to the physics departments. In such a situation, doctor sahib is dealing with weaker lot of students and then brutally generalizing the situation.
#16 Posted by panini on July 9, 2005 1:37:53 am
Unlike most readers of Chowk who have responded to Professor Hoodbhoy with pessimism and lack of hope, let me say that I am invigorated by his article. He has identified problems, and he has pointed to solutions. I do not believe that he claims his solutions are the best or that they will necessarily work. But he has proposed them nevertheless. This is a good starting point.
As a South Asian, I am particularly attracted to his idea of a mingling or a reciprocal movement of teachers and students across South Asian borders. What a wonderful idea! I think that the most important outcome of such exchanges will be the improvement of relations and the possibility of lasting peace. Of course, we will also exchange ideas, teach, and learn from one another. But that is long term, pie-in-the-sky, and dreaming.
So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).
I am afraid that is the way it is. For me, his word is enough. As an Indian, let me point out that there is no academic I know of in India who I respect more than Professor Hoodbhoy. In that sense, I believe India is going through a crisis about as bad as Pakistan. I have, with no exceptions, declined to hire Indian students who applied to my research program, simply because I believe they were poorly prepared and lacked english skills (the same problems identified by Professor Hoodbhoy with some students at QAU). Perhaps there are good students going elsewhere, but I am certainly not seeing them at my University. And never mind the IITs. I am from one of them, and I know what I am saying. Other than in commerce and business and finance, very few IIT graduates have made fundamental contributions to Engineering (Narendra Karmarkar being the only exception perhaps). So, for an institution that has produced nearly 100,000 graduates in the last fifty years or so, we have very little to show for the attention devoted to us.
In teaching and research, education is secondary to scholarship. Time and again people forget this. An education teaches people to read and write, and gives them a degree, and teaches them a trade at best. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not enough to bootstrap a society into producing more teachers and academics. Graduating Ph.Ds at a frantic pace is not a substitute for real scholarship. Scholarship is about thinking and analyzing. Scholarship is about making people think, and about creating thinkers. Professor Hoodbhoy is asking for scholars, and he is demanding scholarship. His demand is reasonable. Let us, Indians and Pakistanis alike, listen to the man. Do!
Panini
As a South Asian, I am particularly attracted to his idea of a mingling or a reciprocal movement of teachers and students across South Asian borders. What a wonderful idea! I think that the most important outcome of such exchanges will be the improvement of relations and the possibility of lasting peace. Of course, we will also exchange ideas, teach, and learn from one another. But that is long term, pie-in-the-sky, and dreaming.
So, onto the core of his article. Some readers point out that Professor Hoodbhoy is needlessly criticizing the idea of more funds and more students funded by the HEC. After all, the arguement goes, some good will come out of it even if most of the recipients are not deserving scholars. This is a terrible position to take. Let me state why. I am currently a faculty member in a University in the United States. When I read what Professor Hoodbhoy has written, you can be sure of one thing: I will not be inclined to admit or take in my laboratory a student from Pakistan (unless s/he is recommended by Professor Hoodbhoy).
I am afraid that is the way it is. For me, his word is enough. As an Indian, let me point out that there is no academic I know of in India who I respect more than Professor Hoodbhoy. In that sense, I believe India is going through a crisis about as bad as Pakistan. I have, with no exceptions, declined to hire Indian students who applied to my research program, simply because I believe they were poorly prepared and lacked english skills (the same problems identified by Professor Hoodbhoy with some students at QAU). Perhaps there are good students going elsewhere, but I am certainly not seeing them at my University. And never mind the IITs. I am from one of them, and I know what I am saying. Other than in commerce and business and finance, very few IIT graduates have made fundamental contributions to Engineering (Narendra Karmarkar being the only exception perhaps). So, for an institution that has produced nearly 100,000 graduates in the last fifty years or so, we have very little to show for the attention devoted to us.
In teaching and research, education is secondary to scholarship. Time and again people forget this. An education teaches people to read and write, and gives them a degree, and teaches them a trade at best. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not enough to bootstrap a society into producing more teachers and academics. Graduating Ph.Ds at a frantic pace is not a substitute for real scholarship. Scholarship is about thinking and analyzing. Scholarship is about making people think, and about creating thinkers. Professor Hoodbhoy is asking for scholars, and he is demanding scholarship. His demand is reasonable. Let us, Indians and Pakistanis alike, listen to the man. Do!
Panini
#30 Posted by Mathematiker on July 10, 2005 9:16:28 pm
Re: # 20
It is the general trend in modern academics that is disturbing. Many individuals do produce original work. But you must agree that the vast majority of people in sub-continent do not give scientific work the respect that it deserves. It is not just a matter of ``grands`` that one makes and the ``millions`` in funding that one wins.
Since WWII universities all over the wolrd have gone through a process of democratization. Anyone with a high school diploma and a credit card can land in a university. IIT is atleast fair in this sense.
I remember that there were seven huge libraries in my university. And students did not have time or motivation even to open the text books. Then there were grades for class attendence and so on. Forced intellectual labor. What`s the point.
Only by raising the intellectual bar can we maintain the prestige of higher learning. Everyone should have access to university. The sophistication of the course work should make the cruisers run away.
Entrance exams do prepare people in some way as they have to study for them. But a computer can be programmed to do them as well. The power of characterization is the true merit for university. We cannot capture it in GRE or SAT.
There should be no watered down course work. The first year of university should be like a grad course. If people need preparation, then they should spend more time studying by themselves or in high school. Universities cannot offord to bend down to serve the high school role.
It is the general trend in modern academics that is disturbing. Many individuals do produce original work. But you must agree that the vast majority of people in sub-continent do not give scientific work the respect that it deserves. It is not just a matter of ``grands`` that one makes and the ``millions`` in funding that one wins.
Since WWII universities all over the wolrd have gone through a process of democratization. Anyone with a high school diploma and a credit card can land in a university. IIT is atleast fair in this sense.
I remember that there were seven huge libraries in my university. And students did not have time or motivation even to open the text books. Then there were grades for class attendence and so on. Forced intellectual labor. What`s the point.
Only by raising the intellectual bar can we maintain the prestige of higher learning. Everyone should have access to university. The sophistication of the course work should make the cruisers run away.
Entrance exams do prepare people in some way as they have to study for them. But a computer can be programmed to do them as well. The power of characterization is the true merit for university. We cannot capture it in GRE or SAT.
There should be no watered down course work. The first year of university should be like a grad course. If people need preparation, then they should spend more time studying by themselves or in high school. Universities cannot offord to bend down to serve the high school role.
#20 Posted by KaalChakra on July 9, 2005 7:57:49 am
re: # 14
Gee, now you are making me feel like a fool. Some of us spent a few years actually writing what were said to be quite original works. :(
And from ASU to Pakistan/India for grad work? Any ASU math alum may want to explain this decision.
Gee, now you are making me feel like a fool. Some of us spent a few years actually writing what were said to be quite original works. :(
And from ASU to Pakistan/India for grad work? Any ASU math alum may want to explain this decision.
#21 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 9, 2005 9:10:25 am
This is general comment.
PhD is fraud as most PhDs of India by their own data is dismil. Most are PhDs in social science or politics like caste, religion, islamic studies and hindu religion, journalism, dance, sait literature. Also its better to have proper bachelors degree studied than graduate. Atleast they should not be bankrolled by our pakistani govt monies/ as all graduate go to foreign countries. Its like pouring water in bucket which has hole. As only is done so to exist Lahore/karachi to go tograduate study and go to london and newyork.
I support all who want to go as its natural to seek good opportunities , being born in one country does not mean one should be loyal as romantic utopia.
PhD is fraud as most PhDs of India by their own data is dismil. Most are PhDs in social science or politics like caste, religion, islamic studies and hindu religion, journalism, dance, sait literature. Also its better to have proper bachelors degree studied than graduate. Atleast they should not be bankrolled by our pakistani govt monies/ as all graduate go to foreign countries. Its like pouring water in bucket which has hole. As only is done so to exist Lahore/karachi to go tograduate study and go to london and newyork.
I support all who want to go as its natural to seek good opportunities , being born in one country does not mean one should be loyal as romantic utopia.
#26 Posted by cayenne on July 9, 2005 1:45:38 pm
Re: # 22....ahmedmadani
This year Mc Kinsey has taken an IITM student on Rs 7.5 lakh remuneration. Similarly top IT companies like Infosys, Wipro, Samsung, Oracle have taken good numbers this year with average salary ranging between Rs 3.5 to Rs 4 lakh.``(350,000.00/400,000.00)
http://www.dqindia.com/content/industrymarket/schools/2004/104052507.asp
http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/jalote/GenArticles/StudentFacultyRatio.html
http://ibef.org/artdisplay.aspx?cat_id=433&art_id=6278
I`m just a graduate of the Louisiana state univ. system.Hopefully, an IIT grad( i doubt it) who trolls this site will respond.You can google a lot of info too.
This year Mc Kinsey has taken an IITM student on Rs 7.5 lakh remuneration. Similarly top IT companies like Infosys, Wipro, Samsung, Oracle have taken good numbers this year with average salary ranging between Rs 3.5 to Rs 4 lakh.``(350,000.00/400,000.00)
http://www.dqindia.com/content/industrymarket/schools/2004/104052507.asp
http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/jalote/GenArticles/StudentFacultyRatio.html
http://ibef.org/artdisplay.aspx?cat_id=433&art_id=6278
I`m just a graduate of the Louisiana state univ. system.Hopefully, an IIT grad( i doubt it) who trolls this site will respond.You can google a lot of info too.
#22 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 9, 2005 9:49:54 am
How much IIT professors make per month? What other additional benefits they get ?
What average IIT Bsc engg makes when he starts his job?
Figures can tell the real situation? Any indian has information
What average IIT Bsc engg makes when he starts his job?
Figures can tell the real situation? Any indian has information
#28 Posted by rozaiba on July 9, 2005 4:23:02 pm
This article sort of makes you laugh. I know Dr. Ata`s got a task on his hands. But it seems the basics are out of his reach and have not been set right yet.
Metrics, standards, gauges...you have to set those right before pushing through all this money. That would be a better way.
Metrics, standards, gauges...you have to set those right before pushing through all this money. That would be a better way.
#29 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 10, 2005 6:47:17 pm
Hoodbhoy
You are an idealist. Let us say 50% is being eaten up by education wallas. Every one else is eating as well. Even if the remaining 50% gets spent, that is a big improvement from the past.
But the most scary aspect is:
(This is a research project worth an astonishing rupees 5,581,000 (Rs 5.6 million) and is titled as ``Quranization of Science Courses At The M.Sc Level``)
Are we now officially into Talibanization? It is 21st Century. Leave the holy scripture sacred and for spiritual needs only; and not drag it into Laboritories for political purposes. It was never intended to be a book of science.
nhk
You are an idealist. Let us say 50% is being eaten up by education wallas. Every one else is eating as well. Even if the remaining 50% gets spent, that is a big improvement from the past.
But the most scary aspect is:
(This is a research project worth an astonishing rupees 5,581,000 (Rs 5.6 million) and is titled as ``Quranization of Science Courses At The M.Sc Level``)
Are we now officially into Talibanization? It is 21st Century. Leave the holy scripture sacred and for spiritual needs only; and not drag it into Laboritories for political purposes. It was never intended to be a book of science.
nhk
#31 Posted by antihypochrist on July 10, 2005 9:52:29 pm
NHK #29,
Dr. Hoodbhoy is not an idealist. He is just being truthful. You will no doubt agree with me on the widely prevalent ``chalta hai`` attitude, in every effort that begins with a big-bang and ends in a whimper. People do not set high expectations, do not dare question the quality of a product, be it of the education being served, or of the student.
Dr. Hoodbhoy is not an idealist. He is just being truthful. You will no doubt agree with me on the widely prevalent ``chalta hai`` attitude, in every effort that begins with a big-bang and ends in a whimper. People do not set high expectations, do not dare question the quality of a product, be it of the education being served, or of the student.
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