Project Mumbai Makeover: Casualties of Development

`Ahmedmadani` , you f**l.

`Chinese brothers` my tuckus!!.Where were the `chinese brothers` who kept silent when we indians went on a rampage in bangladesh and strayed deep into pakmullah land?.They were on our side, eh??.Chuckle.Are you this gullible???.........

#111 by ahmedmadani

[Pakistan rate of growth is second highest only exceeded by brother country of China.]

Here`s a quote from one of the lefty-type bleeding hearts about how China treats brother ahmedmadani`s siblings:

[…the Chinese government periodically engages in systematic crackdowns in Xinjiang in order to prevent any separatist movements from gaining steam. The aforementioned 1997 riots broke out largely as a response to the Strike Hard movement launched in 1996 as a national anti-crime campaign. In Xinjiang this morphed into a movement against separatists and their sympathizers, in which “thousands were arrested and detained, some for short periods as a warning, others for longer in labor camps.” As part of the Strike Hard campaign, unregistered mosques and madrassas, Islamic religious schools, were shut down as illegal and books and other media containing Islamic material not approved by the Chinese Islamic Association was seized. After the 1997 the pace of arrests, trials and executions increased. For the sake of comparison it is imperative to note that this campaign had intensified even before the September 11 terrorist attacks in 2001. The U.S. Department of State’s Annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2000 cites numerous incidents of human rights violations in Xinjiang, including demolitions of mosques and a lack of respect for religious freedom and inhumane treatment of and execution of political prisoners.

…Beijing claims that more than 1,000 Uigher separatists trained in camps under the direction of Osama bin Laden, creating the need for such extreme measures. Sources have suggested that more than three thousand Uighers have been detained since September 11. Other reports have indicated an unwillingness of the Chinese government to allow Ramadan fasting and the wearing of headscarves by Uigher women. Beijing has also requested that 8,000 imams in charge of the state-sanctioned mosques take steps to avoid “political and ideological confusion” by participating in a re-education campaign in which they will attend seminars on religious and political policies as well as the Chinese version of the history of Xinjiang. Perhaps the most serious accusation of human rights abuses deals with executions of political prisoners on the grounds of such crimes as “trying to split the country.”

At least 25 Uighers have been executed this year [2001] and scores more are waiting on death row, say people who track these executions in the local news media. They say the number is probably much higher because the government in August stopped publicizing most of the executions, which Uighers say are part of a larger effort to suppress legitimate dissent and accelerate the ethnic group’s assimilation into the country’s larger Han population.]


Now you can say many things about the Chinese government, but you have to admit that they know how to deal with these ahmedmadani types.

No wonder ahmedmadani types appreciate the Chinese ``brothers`` so much. The only thing they respect is a rod rammed up their rear end.

:-)

Ahmedmadani....you are obviously a nut case. And a semi-literate geriatric.

Over the last decade , India`s GDP growth rate p.a. has been second only to that of China`s. India has averaged an economic growth rate of 6% over the last 10 years , while Pakistan`s growth rate in this period was 4%. Last year India grew at 8.5% and this year at 7.5%.

Pakistan claims to have registered an 8.4% growth rate this year - which is doubtful , but even if true it remains to be seen whether this rate can be sustained for any longer.

Also , India has a much bigger economic base than Pakistan...almost 10 times larger....so its easier for a smaller country with a small economic base like Pakistan to register quick GDP growth rates once ot twice. For your information , the fastest growing economy this year is Iraq..whose GDP grew at 50% !!

with 2.5% landmass of earth and 16% world population means a big slum of india.
Pakistan has much better stastics in this matter. Also booming economy and stock markets , 600 million per year help from usa ( compared to 37 million dollars for india), great leadership of City banker the problems are arising of too fast growth rate. India has exactly opposite problems. I hope Pakistan can handle problems of too high growth rates and India can handle slow growth rates.Pakistan rate of growth is second highest only exceeded by brother country of China.

i have an anecdote on the sprawl issue. near my parents house, a sqautter colony of migrant workers who built the built the area around rose. it grew hap-hazardly, and was known den for hooch manufacture and safe-house for ``tadipar`` criminals (criminals who were on police hit-lists). over time everyone wondered when will the growth stop. eventually, the ``colony`` became more pucca and was normalized with water, electricity by the local shivsena guy and so rose yet onother Ambedkar Nagar. Interestingly, the spread halted immediately. Nomalized denizens simply would not allow any newcomers from settling and sharing their water and electricity. they now obey compund walls, and use ``sulabh`` latrines, and everyone around is comfortable with this equilibrium.

i dont know about the moral of the story.

Ajeya, satyamvada:

The NDA lost not only in AP and TN but also in Delhi, Haryana, Punjab, UP, Maharashtra and even in Gujarat.

tvarad:

That may be a solution for Maharashtra and India but not for Mumbai. Cities thrive on their dynamism - they either grow or stagnate, the way it happened in Kolkota.

What`s the point of this discussion anyway? As far as I know - the italian b!tch has already sabotaged the Mumbai makover plan - commies have already struck, it`s over. Once again - in the name of the poor - the commies have made sure that Indians continue to live in filth.

This debate is futile.

I meant to say ``..and even the poorer economic sections gained``.

Re: #105 by satyamvada

[NDA lost seats because it failed totally in AP and Tamilnadu.]

That is exactly right. Anyone who followed the vote counts knows that. And Vajpayee also said that several times on TV after the elections. BUt then everything got drowned in the propaganda.

The public will believe anything, if repeated enough number of times.

However, the above sentence is not directed against Dost-Mitter. He probably did not follow it closely, and just listened to the subsequent reports. It is to his credit that he mentioned the truth - that the economy did extermely well under the NDA, and even the poorer economic sections gained also.

Dost-Mitter wrote:
``While the lot of the poor people actually improved during the NDA rule, the lot of the middle and upper classes improved even more, so that the disparities increased.``

When a country becomes rich, disparities always increase !! If everyone got rich
the same amount - what is the incentive for entrepreneurship and innovation ?
The amount of disparity in the United States is huuuge....
Have you seen what percentage of citizens pays the most taxes ?
Disparity is a foolish and useless measure - but left wingers and commies use it as
a tool to create alarm.


Also , it is total bullshit to say that it was the India shining campaign that caused NDA
defeat. That is not true.
NDA lost seats because it failed totally in AP and Tamilnadu.
AP because of Telengana campaign and in Tamilnadu because the DMK and PMK
joined hands. Look up the seats that were lost. The percentage shift in votes is
small - but in a winner takes all election - it appears as if some large shift has
happened. Look up the election commission website.

Re: # 101

``Mumbai will lose its attraction for investors who are already migrating to more welcoming places like Chennai, Noida, Gurgaon and Pune. This will hurt the poor more than anyone else in Mumbai, and none more so than the slum dwellers``

The solution to Bombay`s problems is to create other job centres in the state and indeed the country. This will ease the pressure on the city and that can only be a good thing. Same goes for other metros and cities like Bangalore which are bursting at the seams with people coming in trying to seek their El Dorado.

How then would Mumbai lose? And how would it hurt the poor? They will migrate to greener pastures, that`s all.

Khamkhwa...India is a country of 1.1 billion people...if even a `minority` or 10% of the population is seen to be well-to-do ...thats 110 million...quite a number...

Re: # 98
gujju...
make up your mind...the other day you were saying india is the second or was it the third biggest economy about to become second and so on and so forth..and now this blasphemy...quote``Majority of the people of India will continue to be impoverished in varius degrees as long as this is the case.``... please don`t confuse a confused one...said confucious..;)

I was reading an interesting article by an economist this morning which said that removing poverty is not a rocket science...it is much harder!

How true! In developing a rocket you have to use some known principles and a number of limited vairables with predictable effects. Not so when you are dealing with human beings and the economic laws which work in mysterious ways. Sometimes back, I pointed out to a graph on poverty which showed that poverty in India went down in the same years when economic dispartities increased. This was perhpaps one of the reasons for the defeat of the NDA govt. While the lot of the poor people actually improved during the NDA rule, the lot of the middle and upper classes improved even more, so that the disparities increased. The India Shining campaign merely rubbed salt into the wounds of those who were feeling envious of those who were enjoying a style of life they could see everyday on their panchayati TVs but could not even dream of.

Take the case of Mumbai. If the bleeding hearts have their way and no curb is placed on people coming to the city while nothing is done to improve the creadking infrastructure, what will happen to the poor? Mumbai will lose its attraction for investors who are already migrating to more welcoming places like Chennai, Noida, Gurgaon and Pune. This will hurt the poor more than anyone else in Mumbai, and none more so than the slum dwellers. On the other hand, if they are relocated at a distance in govt. subsidised janata flats (25-30 feet, I believe) and there is good infrastructure to bring them to town for their jobs, they will be better off in the long run. Otherwise, it will be the same road to hell paved with noble intentions.

``What about the poor ? ``

Everybody takes care of himself or herself. Rich , poor , whatever. The `poor` can f#ck itself as far as I am concerned. Anybody shedding crocodile tears , talking about doing this and that for somebody is a total hypocrite. As long as I am not `poor` , I`m happy. Those who think its okay for the `poor` to encroach upon public property or properties of `rich` people , should first give away for free their houses, jewellery and vehicles to the `poor`.

Cayenne,

You are absolutely correct on the NGO crowd - they are a bunch of parasites.
The only reason for a ``do-gooder`` ngo to exist is if there are supposed `victims`.
So, every NGO has no incentive to help in reduction of victims for the long
term - they are only into perpetuating dependency so that they can justify their own
existence.

``Commie bashing is very easy. It is also an old game. I myself have indulged in it often on this very site. But it has been 15 years since India rejected socialism and accepted free market. Isn`t it about time we stopped using socialists and communists as scapegoats? ``

India has only rejected the extreme version of socialism. India is still pretty much a socialist state with a closed economy which is by and large controlled by the polity and the bureaucracy.. Majority of the people of India will continue to be impoverished in varius degrees as long as this is the case.

Addendum to #96

Most of the NGO crowd are from the educated and elite sections of society or scions of prominent politicians who obviously know/smell a good thing when they see it...


The above refers to the people who run these NGO`s and not the who work in them, namely , staff.The staff are the lucky ones.They get crumbs for every cheek they turn.or, they get fired.What are they gonna do?.

Re: # 94
Laudable, but not possible in India.The poor have been spoilt.They have become accustomed to handouts and craftily prefer to work for cash to support their extraneous needs and hobbies.They get rations from the govt. which they sell to petty traders in their locality.The govt. can construct tenements, but they prefer to sublet them and live on embankments and encroach free standing land.

There is a whole cadre of unscrupulous NGO`s who in cahouts with the local politicians of a particular area , have made a fine art of siphoning off funds meant for the poor for personal uses.Most of the NGO crowd are from the educated and elite sections of society or scions of prominent politicians who obviously know/smell a good thing when they see it.I know all this from one of my relatives who interred for a certain overseas entity during his college days, which disburses, even now, large sums of US dollars for HIV/AIDS work in India through NGO`s and other quasi-governmental agencies.

The `poor` are big business in India.That`s why they `stay` poor.Don`t blame the hapless indian bureaucrat.Blame him/her only if he/she is in cahoots with the elite/educated NGO crowd or the politicians.It is the middle class that always bears the brunt.

#87 by JagdeeshGodbole

``But it has been 15 years since India rejected socialism and accepted free market. Isn`t it about time we stopped using socialists and communists as scapegoats?``

socialism and communism is still a major factor in politics and governance. NDA itself had Samata party and UPA has commies/socialists supporting it.
Then there are Maoists/Naxalites.

I would like to make it clear that by liberalising its economy, india didn`t do a favor to anyone. We had reached a point that it was the only recourse available. opening up the economy and diving into free markets are not going to bring immediate prosperity to all. THere are various other factors you have to create so that the investors don`t feel threatened, the innovators don`t feel strangulated, the buyers don`t have to worry about delays, the red tape is minimised, kletocracy is replaced by functioning bureaucracy.....
In 1990`s south east asia along with some latin countries have already burnt their fingers thinking that all they need to do is open up the country for others to invest.
A country has to tread cautiously but thats the only path, unless you want to be left out of the process.

89-Kunal,

You dont ``help poor people`` - all people (including poor people) will help themselves
if given the opportunities. The problem is that the Govt by its very nature - *helps*
only those who have lobbying power. The really poor do not have the lobbying
power, so resources tend to be hoarded and abused by a few (like we see with
unions, rich farmers etc). The market system is much more equitable - because
even the poor are a market, they have consumption needs, and the private sector
will meet their needs more effectively than a corrupt govt.

The steps I have proposed - will release huge amounts of hidden/hoarded property
into the market. More houses will be available for renting, driving down prices.
Slum spaces which are now totally underutilized will be better utilized - and
will lead to more jobs, greater prosperity for everyone.
Developing a good transport system - will allow even the poorest of the poor to
travel to prime job places in mumbai from surrounding places where land is cheaper
and will not force them to stay in slums.

Re: # 92

Considering how many `learned` ones i come across here, including yerself, i take it as an honor!!.

Re: # 91

Cayenne:
//.I don`t wanna come across as cruel//

don`t you worry cayenne. you just ALWYAS come across as pure, unadulterated idiot!

President Kalam reveals his recipe for success
Wednesday, 13 July , 2005, 22:17

Kolkata: ``Sweat, sweat, sweat,`` President APJ Abdul Kalam said on Wednesday, spelling out his recipe for success.

The president was replying to a query from a student of the Scottish Church Collegiate school here, who wanted to know the secret of his success.

Taking part in his trademark interactive session with students of the school at the concluding function of its 175th anniversary celebrations, Kalam touched on a wide range of subjects, including astronomy, India`s achievements in science, the need for moral education as also the scourge of corruption.

``This nation is haunted by corruption, of power and money. Now, the time has come when only the youth can change the system,`` the president said, and dictated an oath to the students that exhorted them to strive to create a corruption-free society.

http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13895342

If a fisherman`s son from remote fishing village in an island off the eastern mainland gets it,why don`t our `poor`?.It`s easier delivering Coca-Cola bottles than working in a field under the hot sun.It`s easier to just spread one`s legs and get impregnated than taking the time or spending a buck for a rubber.And, they wonder why they have `less` and are at the mercy of the haves.I don`t wanna come across as cruel.All i`m saying is when will the poor in India take responsibility for themselves??.

Re: # 89

And, how would that be helpful to poor folks again?

Godbole wrote:
``Now how about focusing on how to provide these poor people with a housing solution they can afford?``

Here is a beginning:
- Get the Govt to stop interfering by removing all rent-control
- sell all mill land to the highest bidder - with freedom to do what they want with it
- privatize bus/transport service
- govt to focus on only establishing infrastructure - roads/rail/power to areas within
and outside of mumbai
- reduce property taxes and reduce paperwork - so that all property can be easily
sold and brought - thus increasing turnover of property
- standardized rent contracts and give owners the ability to throw out renters at the
end of the contract.

Re: # 87
On second thoughts, I take back my above post. To expect people to focus on actual solutions on chowk instead of whining and pointing fingers is useless. As a long time chowki, I should know ;)

Dear mohar,
Where the hell do you see me even implying that `` keep poor in filth and get ``services`` from them`` anywhere in my post? My reply was specifically to trans warrior who seems to think that poor people who live in the slum are ``burden`` and they should ``either pay for the loss or get out and help their own state, that will help their own state.``. I merely pointed out that they are already paying - in more ways than one.

I am in no way supporting encroachments on public land - by anyone. However, people like Trans Warrior fail to differentiate between slums and slum dwellers. Beautifying mumbai etc is all fine and dandy. Get rid of all the slums if you can. However, don`t equate slums with people who live in slums. They don`t live in filth and squalor because they enjoy it. And they are not free-loaders. They have to work as much hard to earn a living as you. They have as much right to live with dignity as any other citizens of Mumbai.

There is another angle of this issue. Where will these people go once you get rid of the slums? Does mumbai have any affordable housing options for poor (or even middle class people)? In the absence of such options, these people will simply move to another location and erect their shanties there. GOvt. will keep repeating this whole cycle every few years and it will not solve the basic issue of affordable urban housing. So let me restate. Slums are bad.. and filthy. Agreed. We should get rid of slums. Couldn`t agree more. Now how about focusing on how to provide these poor people with a housing solution they can afford?

Commie bashing is very easy. It is also an old game. I myself have indulged in it often on this very site. But it has been 15 years since India rejected socialism and accepted free market. Isn`t it about time we stopped using socialists and communists as scapegoats?

On this board everyone is whining (including the author) but no one is discussing the main issue or any solutions to it.

Re: # 75
The words socialist and secular were added to the consittution by Indira Gandhi in 1970s.

Re: # 63
Jang, you actually understood the point I am trying to make. A lot of middle class people think that the slum-dwellers in Bombay/Pune are leechers, criminals or free-loaders. The reality can`t be farther from this misconception.

This is from a BBC News article.....excerpt.......

``According to Professor John Kirton of the University of Toronto, the G8 is increasingly emerging as a ``shadow world government`` and developing countries are keen to have a seat at the table.

And, given the economic and political weight of countries like China, India, and Brazil, it is impossible for G8 leaders who want to get things done to ignore them.

Both India and Brazil hope to get permanent UN Security Council seats when the UN reform plans are discussed in September.``

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4675239.stm

And, this is inspite of the `poor` ,the irresponsible and worthless(read: socialists)....

Re: # 79
Kunal I am reproducing the part of 42nd amendment to the constituion of india. you can find it online at http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/amend/amend42.htm
As you see this particular amendment added ``SOCIALIST SECULAR`` to the preamble of our constitution.

---

THE CONSTITUTION (FORTY-SECOND AMENDMENT) ACT, 1976
[18th December, 1976.]
An Act further to amend the Constitution of India.
BE it enacted by Parliament in the Twenty-seventh Year of the Republic
of India as follows:-
1. Short title and commencement.- (1) This Act may be called the
Constitution (Forty-second Amendment) Act, 1976.
(2) It shall come into force on such date as the Central Government
may, by notification in the Official Gazette, appoint and different
dates may be appointed for different provisions of this Act.
2. Amendment of the Preamble.- In the Preamble to the Constitution,-
(a) for the words ``SOVEREIGN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC`` the words ``SOVEREIGN
SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC`` shall be substituted; and
(b) for the words ``unity of the Nation``, the words ``unity and
integrity of the Nation`` shall be substituted.

---

The have Nots and have sh!t still arguing ‘bout who is Socialist and who is secular.
Ran out of non existent money already… Slum Dwellers!

Gandhi na kiya Dia
In-Dia and slum-Dia

Mike,

Sri. Rajagopalachari and his Swatantra Party were for an open, free
enterprising and capitalistic India.
Unfortunately he did not succed - as to why, that is a different story.

Mike,

Indira Gandhi added the word `secular`.

Nehru and his acolytes were very enamoured by fabian socialism and also the
commies in Russia - so `socialism` was in the constitution from the beginning.

Also, there is no such thing as a `founding father` for India. Constitutional authors - yes,
but founding fathers - No.
One should stop copying Americans on every thing :)

Bharatavarsha is an ancient land - and does not need a founder :)

Mike.
Ignorance is hard to get rid of!!!
Okay, here`s a link of the constitution of India and preamble that was drafted in 1949--yeah, by
Dr. B.R. Ambedkar.
http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/coifiles/preamble.htm

AND, it does say ``socialist``

Its very difficult to argue with these leftist fools. They are absolutely blind to reason , facts or logic.

Kunal...do you have comprehension problem ? Read my post again.


``The founding fathers of the Indian constitution made `secularism` and `democracy` the fundamental pillars of our nationhood. Nowhere did they mention `socialism`. It was only Indira Gandhi , who during her bouts of crazy nationalisation , added the term `socialism` , making an amendment to the contitution.... ``

`Socialism` was never given a mention when Ambedkar and Co. wrote the constitution. It was Indira Gandhi who added `socialism` as an amendment to the constitution in the 1970s.

//..the welfare of workingclass poor has been increasingly in danger since liberalization in 1991...//

Yes - ``welfare`` of poor was so good before 1991 that they were 40% of the population - as opposed to 25%, after liberalization. That too when the base population itself has grown by so much.

That`s how the commie logic works. What moth@faking foolishness!!!

Mike,
//Nowhere did they mention `socialism`. It was only Indira Gandhi , who during her bouts of crazy nationalisation , added the term `socialism` , making an amendment to the contitution....

That is absolutely wrong. The constitution DOES say India is a socialist republic!!! and regardless of the word `socialist`, the welfare of workingclass poor has been increasingly in danger since liberalization in 1991.

“secular, socialist, democratic republic!``

The founding fathers of the Indian constitution made `secularism` and `democracy` the fundamental pillars of our nationhood. Nowhere did they mention `socialism`. It was only Indira Gandhi , who during her bouts of crazy nationalisation , added the term `socialism` , making an amendment to the contitution....

Nothing has done more damage to India than the adherence to the destructive principle of socialism. Progess stalted , people living in perpetual poverty , a largely backward agrarian economy , widespread corruption , loss making goverment controlled industries....all because of socialism. If India is a largely rotten country , its because of socialism.

So what Indians should demand is the repeal of the term `socialist` republic from the constitution.

Mr. Takdeo:

You have correctly highlighted the mafia-politician-developer nexus in Mumbai. They certainly have all prospered at the cost of Mumbai. But they are the minor problem. The major problem is that Mumbai simply has more -many more- people than it can afford. The city is already a large slum more or less with some oasis of ultra modernism. Building infrastructure in Mumbai is a must and this cannot happen without resettlement and relocation of slum dwellers, even though it may cause hardships to them.

The only other way is to accept your solution, which is to end all new developments in Mumbai and maybe even rollback some of the industry and development that comes its way. In other words, let it go the way Kolkotta did for several decades. No development, no job opportunities, and hence no one would want to come to Mumbai, except some Bangladeshi refugees. Problem solved. Is this what you really want?

Re: # 61
//...Only midle classes can think of the `gardners and dabbawallas`` as filth....//

Nobody here said that. What was said was -``gardners and dabbawallas are living in filth``.......

And YOUR idea is to keep them that way - keep them in filth and get ``services`` from them.... So Yes, I perfectly understood your and jagdish`s ``point``...... I have been hearing this lunatic arguments for a long time and we all know what such madness has caused to the country..... You should be ashamed of yourself - 57 years of failing the country and its` people, you still show up here and cry fake tears for the poor.

But mark my words - sooner or later, the poor will get better, poverty will come down further. Not because of your fake tears, but because of the hard work and productivity of the hated middle class, the entrepreneurship and resourceful-ness of the middle class. they will overcome your stupidity, they will generate money and employment.

They got half a chance in 1991 and the poverty came down from 40% to 25%. They know how to do it and they have proved it. All you have to do is stay out of the way and let the good people do the work.

Re: # 62 kunal


``And to care for poor people certainly does not mean you deprive them of their basic rights such as food and housing.``

no one is advocating to deny anyone food or housing. The question is about whether the day light robbery should be tolerated or not? and anyway housing is not a basic right.

``the life-style of the middle class and the elites is largely supported by the poor
who live in slums. Where else do you think your maids, gardners, dubbawalas etc come from?``

Dude Godbole....the maids, gardners, dabbawalas come because they want a job.
If there were no middle-class or elites - where would the jobs be ?
The dabbawala is not doing his job in order to be ``nice`` he is doing it because he is
getting paid for it.
The idea should be that there should be an ``opportunity`` for the dabbawala to educate
himself and his children so that they can become middle-class too, and not remain
a dabbawalla.
Making the middle-class and elites poorer will not help anyone.

To create high paying jobs, the Govt has to get out of running businesses, doling out
sops, protect individual freedom and enforce laws regarding property rights.
If you thought that the Govt can come
and seize your property or have squatters on your land - what will you do ?
You will try to flee to a better place. Imagine if a large number of people do that ....
the place becomes a dump

I notice this Shivali Tukdeo has fled from this site and refused to answer why she wants poor indians to stay poor forever.

Being ``pro-poor`` is no excuse for not using your brains. Living in kolkotta in the 70`s I have seen the viciousness, the mindlessness and the complete disinterest of the `liberal left`` in raising living standards for poor people.

Without good schemes for making the poor rich, all of this bakwaas is really about maintaining large vote banks for politicians. Nonsense like ``the servant works as hard as a software engineer`` is completely irrelevant to the issue. The real question is how to make the servant and his/her children richer and more educated. But strangely, the ``pro-poor`` have no interest in this issue!!

Re: # 62 kunal

``Remember, a few people are rich because many are poor. ``

better set of words would been:

a few people are rich but there are middle class and poor too.

what is the problem with that. if nilenkeni, narayan murthy have made it big is that because of robbing poor? what you want, every one to become poor? simply because not all can become rich at the same time.
shouldn`t the effort be towards upward movement. Things are far better now than what it used to during the hey days of socialism.

what you are advocating is known as Kletocracy, where stealing/grabbing others/government/public property is the way business is done.

Re: #58 by kunal

[Thank you jagdeesh. If not for human rights and equality, the mindless middle class and upper class in Mumbai should realize that they are dependent on the services of poor. ]


The poor are also dependent on the employment that the rich provide them.



#62 by kunal

[Mohar 11,

I don`t think you got Jagdeesh`s point. And to care for poor people certainly does not mean you deprive them of their basic rights such as food and housing.]


Food and housing are NOT basic rights under the Indian Constitution. You cannot sue the Indian Government for not having housing or food.



[Remember, a few people are rich because many are poor.]

No.

A few people are rich.

And many are poor.

If a few people were not rich, then EVERYBODY would be poor.



[Only midle classes can think of the `gardners and dabbawallas`` as filth.]


Most of the middle-class have far more compunction for the poor than your goody-two-shoes type.




[They work as hard, or more than a software professional.]


Then they should teach their children to be software professionals.




[One shoudn`t be patronizing to them and think of uplifting these ``filthy`` (your term) people, but one needs to be aware and respect their labor and fight for their rights. ]


YOU are being patronizing to them. They are fully capable of fighting for their own rights.


They should also think twice before popping out children like rabbits, even after much urging not to do so.

#63 by jang on July 12, 2005 8:23am PT


e.g. a person in dharavi wants to be close to his/her work and hence wont go to mankhurd, where affordable housing is buit because the commute is slow. now, mankhurd should be no more than 10 minutes from dharavi on a good commuter system.


And the commute on the harbor line is slow because of the encroachments around the tracks...catch-22...

#57 by JagdeeshGodbole on July 12, 2005 7:42am PT


Let me tell you as a fellow maharashtrian and a sometimes Mumbaikar that the life-style of the middle class and the elites is largely supported by the poor who live in slums.


And that means what? The ``poor`` people should be allowed to set up a slum on occupied land near the airport?

Kunal wrote:
`` Remember, a few people are rich because many are poor. ``

This is absolute falsehood. Only a few people are rich, because the feel-good commies
will not allow others to get rich.
A neigborhood shopkeeper or a truck owner has to bribe cops to transport goods across
state lines so as to avoid high taxes. A person owning a small apt will not rent it out
because of rent-control. Mumbai govt wont allow sick mills to be shut down and land
sold to others. Some people may lose jobs - but many many more will gain jobs.

Govt doles out subsidies to entrenched labor and farmer interests (free water, electricity)
etc and takes out loans. All Govt revenue is tied up in paying interest rather than
investing in roads and infrastructure. All in the name ``helping poor`` ....
If there is a decent road and property rights, a poor man can atleast have ownership
to own a small beedi shop and hire one helping hand.

It is the self appointed, feel good, beleeding hearts - who have kept India poor.

Look at Gujarat - what a economically vibrant state it is - even though it is almost
a desert, look at how it is growing. Gujaratis are some of the most philanthropic as well.

Infact, Gujarat now needs to import labor from other states !!
Gujarat Govt, ran ads in the major newspapers - asking companies to shift from Mumbai
to Gujarat. If the Maharashtra govt remains incompetent - Industries and any decent
businessman will flee to states with better investment environment.

People become rich - by hardwork and initiative and taking risk as entrepeneurs.
(Some familites may have inheritance - but most business people who are well to do
are so because of their initiative and hard work ).
Let us see you put your own money on any project and see how risky it is ...then
talk.

JG true dat..all the fancy restaurants and bars are manned by bhaiyyas from slums (actually low-cost housing). given the fact that there is a large working class in slums who pays thru their nose for essentials to Dadas, there got to be a market-based solution rather than encroachment. these urban workers are willing to pay for water, electricity etc..so govt should focus on general development of infrastructure, fast commuting routes etc and not tolerate random sprawl which benefits only the dadas and political operators.

e.g. a person in dharavi wants to be close to his/her work and hence wont go to mankhurd, where affordable housing is buit because the commute is slow. now, mankhurd should be no more than 10 minutes from dharavi on a good commuter system.

mumbai municipality one of the richest in revenues, its just intellectual lazyness of the left which makes the place dirty and bad for its urban worker.

Mohar 11,

I don`t think you got Jagdeesh`s point. And to care for poor people certainly does not mean you deprive them of their basic rights such as food and housing. Remember, a few people are rich because many are poor. Only midle classes can think of the `gardners and dabbawallas`` as filth. They work as hard, or more than a software professional. One shoudn`t be patronizing to them and think of uplifting these ``filthy`` (your term) people, but one needs to be aware and respect their labor and fight for their rights.

What I have found, is that such left-right ideological debates are useless. Once you start talking about real issues the distance between the two sides is less than it seems.

For instance, Kunal can you tell you about what solution do you envisage for the expansion of Mumbai airport where 200 acres of airport land is occupied by slums.

Re: # 57 jag
//...Where else do you think your maids, gardners, dubbawalas etc come from?...//

And you want to keep them that way? Is that your plan for the poor - ``the poor are giving me ``services``, so let`s have all the slums and filth`` - is that how commie logic works these days?

Economic growth is what is necessary to lift quality of life for everybody - the growth will come from more business, more empolyment opportunities, more money. It can`t happen if Mumbai is choking with slums and filth. It can`t happen if the airport terminals are choked, roads are choked, infrastructure is crumbling. Airport, roads, infrastructure are not luxury items that the so called middle class wants - these are items that is needed for the growth, the growth for everybody 0 for poor, for rich, for middle class.

Jeez - how many years more is going to take for fools like you to understand this very basic ideas? 57 years of filth, poverty and deprivation - people are still giving ``services of the gardner`` as an excuse to keep things the way they are.

Un-f***ing-believable!!!!

Cayenne says,

>>> I doubt it.No indian can stoop so low.

That`s not true. You are a good example of how low the Indians can stoop! :-) :-)

Thank you jagdeesh. If not for human rights and equality, the mindless middle class and upper class in Mumbai should realize that they are dependent on the services of poor.

Re: # 53
Let me tell you as a fellow maharashtrian and a sometimes Mumbaikar that the life-style of the middle class and the elites is largely supported by the poor who live in slums.

Where else do you think your maids, gardners, dubbawalas etc come from?

#46

the saying is by Churchill and it goes something like this:

``If you are 20 and not a liberal you have no heart
If you are 40 and not a conservative you have no brains``

Re: # 44

Stop this non sense.
Even the poor who live in slums of Mumbai have T.V. , V.C.D. Players and Refrigerators, even Free Light and Rationed food at discounted prices, they dont pay taxes and litter on the sreets and still complaint as being wronged...
As far as you are concered you must be from rich class with hollow sympathy for ``poor`` and if u feeelll for them then rather indulging in debates go and help those Poooorrrr

Ref Dalit $44

[...barely 10 per cent of all households have life insurance cover]

Why do you need life insurance in India if you are poor?

For every person who died in the tsunami, their families got Rs. 200,000 - Rs. 100,000 from the Prime Minister`s Relief Fund and another Rs. 100,000 from Puratchi Thalaivi Amma the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. Nobody paid insurance premia but they got death benefits! Why do you want to enrich the capitalist insurance companies by asking that people should buy insurance?

Are you an insurance salesman?

This is the height of foolishiness. The slums are mostly of those who are burden and have come from poor states like Bihar, U.P. and even Bangla desh.
Maharashtra gives country Rs. 50,000 crore annualy, the biigest and in retrun maharashtra gets is slums from other states.So remember if Maharashtra crumbles then whole country will be poor.
And this kind AirCondition class ``poor sympathy`` should be stopped (the biggest actor in this sense is Shabana Aaazmi Madam) ,
and should be replaced by giving those poor chance to live in your A.C. and velvett bed(haa ...haaa)
We want all those who are burden to either pay for the loss or get out and help their own state, that will help their own state.
And dear Shivali stop shedding Crocodile Tears.

Re: # 49

I doubt it.No indian can stoop so low.Paks are all sweetness and light in front of your face, but when they wanna be vicious they have it down to a fine art.And, the way pakland has been functioning lately, they must be all eaten up inside that they have to buy our produce to shore up prices and inflation, our diesel, depend on our cables as back up, need the US$800 million or so that we can pay them for the gas pipeline from Iran, take heed of our warnings about the recent starting up of terrorist camps(and having to take action on it)....i could go on and on.They are bitter and eaten up about all this.

#42 by kunal on July 11, 2005 4:54pm PT


And yeah, just check the achievements of Cuba


And what achievements would those be?

The visceral reactions to the author`s rather obvious left-leaning tendencies are only to be expected. There is enough of a case to be made that Nehruvian socialism destroyed whatever chances India had of making it as a great country in the first 50 years after independence. Whatever we do now is too little too late.

But all that`s been eloquently put forward by Gurucharan Das and others of his ilk and a few posters on chowk are not going to say anything earthshakingly new or different.

So, move on then to the actual article and what it talks about- how progress affects the poor. Answer- badly. Come to think of it, practically everything affects the poor negatively. So, at the end of the day, if a certain move is going to benefit more people than it harms, why not go ahead with it?

There are people- good people, people who work hard for a living and a better life for themselves and the generations to come- who live in Mumbai, and would like to be proud of Mumbai and have a stake in its development. They`d like to think that someday, not in their lifetime sure, but in the distant future, amchi Mumbai will be spoken of in the same breath as London, New York and Paris, instead of being the dirty, smelly, crimeridden hellhole it is widely perceived as today, not without good reason.

There is nothing elitist in hoping that someday soon Chatrapati Shivaji International Airport will be clean, efficient and well-connected, none of which it is today. Just because we are a poor country, does that mean we do not deserve the best? It`s precisely that kind of defeatist thinking that stops us subcontinentals from delivering up to our potential. Maybe we can choose to move out of that mindset.

Having said that, indulging in our favourite pastime of ``labeling`` is helping nobody. The author, whatever her motives may be, makes valid points about slum relocation and a neta-builder nexus that is eating away at available resources. It serves nobody`s interests to have a tonload of poor people, worse still that they`ve been recently deprived of the roofs over their heads, which will only make them more dangerous. ``Firm but humane`` seems to be the right way out. One hopes we can someday achieve that.

Dalit is from India definitely. An enlightened progressive intellectual leftist , no doubt. These people hate India more than even the Pakis. And lot of such people are making their presence felt in this particular thread.

Kunal...Kerala has 100% literacy , 90% sick industries and 80% unemployment. Most Keralites migrate out of Kerala to other parts of India or abroad to earn their livelihod for they will starve to death in their enlightened communist state. Jai Communism !!

Re: # 45

I think we indians should be magnanimous and allow the paks a little leeway in the `india bashing` game , as they have been at the receiving end lately, terrorism, sectarian violence, internicine quarrels, a failed economy(9.8 % inflation), false projections of growth rates and growth targets(KSI market correction of over 3000 points), failed telecom strategy, faulty infrastructure et alia notwithstanding.Let us turn the other cheek.Ofcourse, `dalit` is a Pak.No second thoughts.

#42 by kunal on July 11, 2005 4:54pm PT

[Satyamvada,

Your ridiculous reply doesn`t merit a response, but please check your facts before you ride on a frenzy of imaginary anti-communist, anti-socialist nonsense. For your information, Kerala has the best education(100%literacy), best health care system in the country. And yeah, just check the achievements of Cuba and their progress before enslaving yourself to this mainstream media fed diet of ``Jai Capitalism``. ]


There is a saying ``When you are young, it`s only natural to be a Communist, and when you grow up, it`s very natural not to be a Communist`` (paraphrasing)

What Communists don`t realize is that non-Communists are not necessarily bad or intellectually stunted. We all understand about the ``equal opportunity`` ideal. But it`s an unrealizable goal, and has to be always enforced by dictatorship. Wheras market Capitalism tempered with some enlightened humanism seems to work best. Because it can happily co-exist with human nature.

Grow up.

Re: #44 by Dalit

Well good, don`t ever set foot on Indian soil. Or watch Indian movies. Or listen to Indian music.

I always suspected this Dalit guy to be a Paki/Muslim hiding behind a ``Dalit`` tag.

Is it India or Slum-dia?

Seventy percent of all city dwellers live slums.
barely 10 per cent of all households have life insurance cover
Only 2 per cent of households have credit cards.
the refrigerator, exists in only a sixth of all households in the country
(just as it is completely abnormal to speak and write in English -- only about 6 per cent do that).
half of all the TV sets sold in the country are either black and white, or small (i.e. 14-inch)
According to a UN Habitat report, one in every three human beings could live in a slum by 2030. Many of them Indians.

Number of homes damaged by the tsunami in Nagapattinam: 30,300. Number of homes destroyed by the Congress-NCP Government in Mumbai: 84,000

The war between have-nots and have sh1t….

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/02ninan.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/sainath02052005.html

Enjoy…

“It is a shock to discover, for instance, that despite the evident emergence of a strong middle class, barely 10 per cent of all households have life insurance cover-- And medical insurance is available for barely 1 per cent of all households!
There is worse to come. Only 2 per cent of households have credit cards (so much, then, for the vaunted advent of plastic money). Even that basic item in a middle-class household, the refrigerator, exists in only a sixth of all households in the country (probably because only a third of rural households have a domestic electric connection!).
It might be as much of a surprise to know that half of all the TV sets sold in the country are either black and white, or small (i.e. 14-inch) colour sets.
The only items of truly mass consumption remain daily consumables like cooking oil and washing and toilet soaps (which should really be classified as necessities, not options), followed some way behind by shampoos.
Among consumer durables, the ones used most often are not the stuff of contemporary middle class legend, and are either table/ceiling fans or bicycles. The first category sells about 37 million each year, the second about 25 million.
In other words, what appears a normal lifestyle to the average city youngster working in an office is completely abnormal for the majority, in both towns and cities (just as it is completely abnormal to speak and write in English -- only about 6 per cent do that).”

Why do they hate poor in India? all are dirt poor anyway!
Poverty Republic of India!

Re: # 42
Kunal
Agreed that kerala has the best social indicators among all the states in India. But I doubt, if the commie rule can be given credit for that. There are other social factors like the huge christian presence and the remittances from gulf that helped the state. Look at the economy from industrial development point of view. It is a disaster. Same is the situation in WB.
As long as these two states keep sending commies to the parliament, the economic development of the country will be slow.

Satyamvada,

Your ridiculous reply doesn`t merit a response, but please check your facts before you ride on a frenzy of imaginary anti-communist, anti-socialist nonsense. For your information, Kerala has the best education(100%literacy), best health care system in the country. And yeah, just check the achievements of Cuba and their progress before enslaving yourself to this mainstream media fed diet of ``Jai Capitalism``.

jbhullar,

All the commie nonsense has been tried !! (look at that pit called West Bengal ,
look at that communal hell hole called Kerala - where every politicial action is
based on religion, and people fleeing to other states at the first chance)
Look at nationalization of banks, rent-control, production-control, subsidizing of
public sector.
Corruption is ``because of too much Govt`` and lack of competition.

Give people decent property rights and there will be enough supply of decent housing
for everyone. When Govt involves itself and tries to ``distribute`` - that is the recipe for
corruption.

People like yourself (bhullar and shivali) are the worst kind of hypocrites. You are
unwilling to give up your own property rights, but want `others` to give their own property
up. Let us see you give up your own sites for other squatters before you lecture
others.

BTW, do read up on what Hernando De Soto writes on property rights. Do not revel
in your ignorance.

Re: # 21
...abay tujhe tou raat ko khwaab mein bhi isi ke agents nazar aatay hongay...;)

Re: # 31

``Do you know of any politicians in India who don`t aspire to higher political posts? What`s your point? ``

given a set of circumstances, even mulayam can become p.m. He did become defence minister not so long back. We had other socialists like v.p.singh as prime minister too who let the country burn for social causes.

``so don’t worry about refreshing my memory. ``

i was refreshing your memories about mulayam (as a socialist) not commies.

Mike

What non-rotten country do you come from?

You sound like a mixed-breed mutt without a sense of self so you try to lift your self-esteem by smearing others.

A more precise assessment would be ,

Commie = brain-dead if not evil

#34 by kunal on July 11, 2005 2:02pm PT



Any attempt to be critical of the system in India is always discarded as ``commie or paki``.


the system in India is commie...Anyone who criticizes the system is anti-commie...The shivaji airport leading to the shivaji highway leading to the shivaji chowk at shivaji park are all dumps because of the prevailing commie system.....

Let`s face it, democracy without free markets is simply communism with elections..in that respect, India is communist....socialism is sooo 20th century..

Let me sum all this up for you in terms that even you will understand....

Commie = YOU
Anti-commie = person who is against the commie system i.e. ME

The system in India is commie...atleast was so for 45 years. Even today the commie stink remains. No wonder India is such a rotten country and so many Indians are poor. Everything the comminists do or say is blatantly anti-India.

And counterpunch is a silly leftist website.

Any attempt to be critical of the system in India is always discarded as ``commie or paki``. I encourage you to introspect a little on this. By branding someone commie, or attacking personally, you are just showing that you are not prepared to carry out a civil, logical and engaging dialogue.

For another marvellous piece of journalism on the same issue, check out P. Sainath`s article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/sainath02052005.html

Any attempt to be critical of the system in India is always discarded as ``commie or paki``. I encourage you to introspect a little on this. By branding someone commie, or attacking personally, you are just showing that you are not prepared to carry out a civil, logical and engaging dialogue.

For another marvellous piece of journalism on the same issue, check out P. Sainath`s article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/sainath02052005.html

I can only pity the ignorant fools who pine for such rubbish as socialism and communism. I used to get angry earlier. Now I realise these people can only be pitied. They are stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Enough said.

Re: #30

Do you know of any politicians in India who don`t aspire to higher political posts? What`s your point?

“except the commies . . . . “
I’m not arguing the virtues of political systems here, especially ones that I don’t agree with myself, so don’t worry about refreshing my memory.

Re: # 24

``First, Mulayam is not in charge of the country (that’s M Singh or actually Sonia Gandhi). ``

that doesn`t mean that he doesn`t aspire to.
Fortunately he is supported only by u.p yadavs and muslims. Even laloo dreams of becoming a p.m. one day whith Rabri as a home minister :)


``Mulayam Singh might be a Socialist but that’s not why he’s a bad leader. He’s a poor leader because he’s corrupt and has a fixation with power, without the desire to help people this citizenry. ``

Well, you said you don`t know of any. hence i wanted to refresh your memory. Shouldn`t socialism have made him non-corrupt, responsible person rather than a casteist, regional war-lord. Its quite amazing that you can be a casteist, muslim-appeasing, male chavunist and still be called a Socialist. And have the likes of Surjeet claiming you to be ``ideologically`` closer than the ``capitalist`` congress.


``Most of them have no ideals; political affiliation has less to do with their beliefs and more to do with the most convenient arrangement to win an election. `

except the commies. who have very strong beliefs, which have been proved wrong all over the world but will still cling to it.

Re: # 22 kunal
//...The self-proclaimed pro-liberalization and anti-commie iditots, would anyone have guts to tear down these buildings??...//

Yes. Hiranandani or whoever - if they built illegally, it has to be broken down. There are no two ways about it. if you can clear the slums, you can clear these f0ckers too.

The point is - Mumbai has to be made over, just like Beijing has been, recently. Just like New York had been, long time ago. It`s vital and essential for progress and development of the country. Why is so difficult to understand this simple thing? I mean - for pete` sake - look at China!!!

Re: # 22

``The GOVT itself claims in a recent report on Mumbai that there are approximately 592 constructions that are built upon illegally after 2000 and owners of these buildings involve likes of Hirannandani, Rehani and bollywood stars. The self-proclaimed pro-liberalization and anti-commie iditots, would anyone have guts to tear down these buildings??``

I would ask Margaret Alva to ``force`` Vilasrao into demolishing these structures with the same enthusiam that she showed after dashing from Delhi. I read sometime back Begums Sonias ``son`` Govinda crying foul after BMC demolished his cow shed. His justification was ``others`` have so he should also have it.
In this case tomorrow I will squat on CM`s lawn. And by default it will belong to me.
You can talk about corruption, criminal-poliltician-BMC nexus in all this but cannot justify it simply because the people living there are poor.

same old nonsense from Shivali Tukeo. Politicians hiding behind poverty and doing their best to perpetuate poverty. Why? Because having a large mass of poor people is the best possible vote bank. Add to that large underperforming goverment entities (municipal, city, state) where patronage jobs can be doled out to politicial supporters. RESULT: the poverty loving politician will get re-elected every four years. It;s a wonderul world....

One of the most striking things about this article is its complete unconcern about how to make the poor rich. It does not include a single strategy, whether micro-loans for small business, training for new markets or better schools or building satellite cities outside bombay or anything. ZERO INTEREST IN REAL ECONOMIC PROGRESS.

But why should it? After all it is written by a great ``left-wing intellectual`` with love for the people. And this excuses Shivali from even the most elementary thought processes. What an airhead....

Cayenne,
your reply is not only filled with ignorance, but is sexist. Knowing these types well enough in India, I know you may take it as a compliment!! But, I certainly don`t mean to compliment you :-) :-)
ps: Are you from Bihar?

Re: # 15

Well, your reply is not only filled with ignorance, but is sexist. Knowing these types well enough in India, I know you may take it as a compliment!! But, I certainly don`t mean to compliment you :-) :-)
ps: Are you from Bihar?

Cayenne
Here’s a link to an article on Deshmukh`s visit.
http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jun/24deshmukh.htm

Here’s a link to the Amnesty International report
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa170452004

An article on Mumbai trying to be the next Shanghai
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC16Df02.html

Here’s something on the demolition of slums
http://www.sacw.net/Nation/SangvaiBhise28032005.html

Frankly, I don’t give a hoot about whether or not you retract your statement, but calling someone a ``bitch`` for no reason seems ridicules

Netizen
First, Mulayam is not in charge of the country (that’s M Singh or actually Sonia Gandhi). Second, I don’t think Mulayam is a good leader; although this has nothing to do with his political affiliation. Mulayam Singh might be a Socialist but that’s not why he’s a bad leader. He’s a poor leader because he’s corrupt and has a fixation with power, without the desire to help people this citizenry.

Most political leaders in India (regardless of whether they belong to Congress, BJP, or the Socialist parties) care more about their own pockets and less about the people who voted them into their respective posts. Most of them have no ideals; political affiliation has less to do with their beliefs and more to do with the most convenient arrangement to win an election.

Thanks for the comment. At least you seem concerned about progress or the lack thereof and are willing to say something, as apposed to a few sissies making childish remarks about the author of the article.

Okay, to prove my point and keep the records straight: The GOVT itself claims in a recent report on Mumbai that there are approximately 592 constructions that are built upon illegally after 2000 and owners of these buildings involve likes of Hirannandani, Rehani and bollywood stars. Now my question is this: The self-proclaimed pro-liberalization and anti-commie iditots, would anyone have guts to tear down these buildings??

Okay, to prove my point and keep the records straight: The GOVT itself claims in a recent report on Mumbai that there are approximately 592 constructions that are built upon illegally after 2000 and owners of these buildings involve likes of Hirannandani, Rehani and bollywood stars. Now my question is this: The self-proclaimed pro-liberalization and anti-commie iditots, would anyone have guts to tear down these buildings??

Guys, don`t waste your breath.This is another pak attempt to discredit india, and there are enough misguided elements in our midst to provide slanted information that fuels the above tripe and such.Why would the govt. give compensation to people who are illegally squatting on property?.The ownership of the property is immaterial.He/she could have thought of a better pseudonym though.

Re: # 13

``I don’t espouse to the socialist philosophy but don’t know of any socialists who have held back India/Pakistan’s progress