Being Imrana

Mohar 11:

``Jawahara sort of agrees with that - she may still have some reservations .... Actaully I am not sure what her position is. But anyway - that`s where the matter stands.``

Jeeze, I don`t know how I can make my position clearer. I think the MPL is not good for Muslims in India, especially for women and I am for the UCC. However, we cannot make these changes without coming up with a coherent strategy for how to deal (internally, within the Muslim community) with the fact that we will end up on the same side as the RSS/BJP. Personally, I would sideline them from the discussion but be ready that they will try to stake this as a major win for the Hindu Rashtra. And what we will need to do is to not engage in their rhetoric at all and think of this as a victory of a secular state. Is that clear yet? Just because I am able to own up to my prejudices and because I hate/distrust the BJP/RSS *does not* mean that something cannot be done about the MPL.

#147 Khare
``What is the BJP/RSS`s ``hidden`` agenda in bringing about UCC? Can Jawahara explain it? BJP (which has also Muslim members in it) wants to work with all religions together to evolve the UCC. So what is wrong with it? It has never said that it will be worked out by only Hindus.``

Touting BJP`s Muslim members is as good as when the Republican party in the US trots out its token black members. Some time later, as the BJP realizes that its partisan politics are not working out as well as they thought they might morph into a truly inclusive party. Till that happens I intend to not fall for their token Muslims. The RSS I don`t think will ever come to that stage.

What is their hidden agenda? It`s not really that well hidden. They believe that Muslims are pampered in India (similar rhetoric is used by extremist white supremacists about every minority in the US) and destroying the MPL will help them gain an upper hand. It will be a win for them. Psychologically that`s a big win for them. I don`t want the end of MPL to be laid on the altar of a Hindu Rashtra. I want it to be a victory of a secular India. And yes, that makes a huge difference because in the former there will be resentments and a feeling of loss. In the latter, there will be no losers, only victors and that makes a huge difference in making the change actually work.

#144 by harimau

I read your post but I am not going to dignify your ridiculous question with a response. If you`ve read my postings you know where I stand. If you refuse to see that then you really didn`t want a response anyway, just wanted to score a point.

Re: # 140

``RSS hates Muslims and THAT IS why Muslims ( & Jawahara too!! My god even she does. I don`t think India has any future with IM`s in it)) is prejudiced against it and hates RSS`` ...In this case the hatred is justified! HAs anyone thought about why RSS is against Muslims? Could it be becasue Muslims since last 1400 yrs have explicitly expressed and have ``acted`` on that hatred against all non muslims. In addition, they say they will CONTINUE to do so (Upholding Quran ``as it is`` is nothing but that). Is retaliation by other communities after so many yrs sufferings is not justified? Can they not even speak against it and take steps to stop it?

What is the BJP/RSS`s ``hidden`` agenda in bringing about UCC? Can Jawahara explain it? BJP (which has also Muslim members in it) wants to work with all religions together to evolve the UCC. So what is wrong with it? It has never said that it will be worked out by only Hindus.

ana,

In the quest to appear humanist/rational/balanced/anthrocentic etc, persons like you make the mistake of not speaking in frank speech....when necessary.....which i did and was unwittingly dubbed as a hatemonger.

naive are exploited or taken advantage by the agenda pushers........i refuse to be that naive sheep.

instead of being microscopic and criticising my diction of using `them` `they` etc.

it will be better for the world if you use the same energy to confront the evil doers and their supporters (tacit or otherwise).

re: avkrishna # 142

Not to inpugn anybody`s sanity, but I suspect you are speaking of Zafar al Talib (do I have zafar bhai`s name right, anyone?).

Ref mohar11 #140

[....You should start asking yourself this question: ``Is Muslim Personal Law good for muslims``? If your answer is yes - then I have nothing to say to you.

If your answer is NO - then welcome to the club - My point was that - since MPL is bad for muslims, it should be abolished....]

Since Muslims are so hung up that Muslim Personal Law should govern their lives, let us give Indian Muslims that. We also suspend the Criminal Procedure Code for Indian Muslims and let them be punished according to the Sharia. Now, God-fearing Muslims (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi or for that matter Muslims of the Ummah) should have no complaints about the Law of Allah and Prophet Mohammad being applied to them.

Imrana either produces four witnesses to rape or else she gets stoned to death.

End of story.

As for petty thieves, etc., let us chop off their right hands. Murder? Off with their heads!

Come on guys! Let us GIVE the Muslims what they WANT and MORE!

Any takers? Jawahara? Ana? _digit? Umbertoeco? Urstruly? Khamkhwa.? Ozerkhalid? Zafar Anjum? Dost-Mittar?

Rape is an issue that has been at the forefront of Indian press for quite some time now giving rise to all kinds of silly conjectures - like more technology leads to more cases of rape and if you watch MTV you`re either going to be a rapist or become a rape victim. 24 hr news channels have also discovered rape in a big way and are all for ``exposing`` this threat by some truly insensitve and nauseating coverage.

But one good thing all this media attention has done is to focus attention on the law. Unfortunately, the emphasis is sometimes on the wrong things - like whether or not rapists should be executed... how about arresting them first and prosecuting them without clauses like the one that lets the rapist off scot free if he can prove his victim was not of pristine reputation (!!!!) or letting the cases drag on for years or the clause that refuses to recognize anything other than straight sex as rape or...?

Another thing that this new fascination has done is bring the dichotomy between urban and rural india to the forefront. The very idea that some group somewhere gets to decide how some exploited woman gets to spend the rest of her life according to their arbitrary rules is nauseating. Even more disgusting is the kind of reportage that seeks to discredit the victim`s account of her rape under the assumption that a cry of rape must be an easy method to gain revenge or manipulate some matter to her satisfation, etc.

The part of UP from which Imrana hails must be overflowing with this strange breed of women who like to cry rape for no good reason at all going by the reports of women who have been denied justice by their neighbors and peers on some technicality or other which eventually settles down to one point - her rapist couldnt possibly have done it, he`s such a nice fellow and she`s such a bitch, really.

As for the Indian state - you bet its a failure of the Indian state when the entire parliament is too busy playing footsie with itself and making money under the table to govern adequately or revise the laws that would take care of issues like this. Its true Imrana would do much better if she was educated, but even if the state had satisfied its educational norms, how much better would Imrana have done if she hadnt been married off at the age of 12 just in case she did something to impugn her family honor.

We dont only need a courageous political class that can gets its head out of its nether regions long enough to do something positive for the people who vote them in every term without thinking about political fallouts but we also need communities to act like communities of human beings rather than crabs and neanderthals.

Zafar,
I always found you to be a voice of sanity among IM. Sad to see that`s not the case in this issue.

``Imrana is more a proof of the failure of the state than a failure of Islam in India. ``

The state is failing poor/middle class Indians in many ways, But this statement is a cop out.

I thought this will be a galvanizing issue among the moderate muslims to reform their religious laws. It is extremely disappionting that educated guys like you are not focussing on the main issue.

Indian Muslims should realize that they have a serious problem with their religious laws. Reform yourselves and Don`t do it for us, Hindus. Do it for the sake of your children, your women...

Anyway, all the more reason why we need to have a Uniform Civil Code in our country..

Thanks,
Avkrishna

kaurasach:

go ahead with the maj and the been analogy. . . but here`s what i have to say.

people can put labels of leftist/liberal/apologist on those who choose to be critical without sounding like the very same demagogues and fanatics they are denouncing. it doesn`t make it true.

you seem to forget kaura, that my loved ones and the village they live in has been attacked by demagogues, and fanatics. . . and i make no bloody apologies for these people. and i never have.

ally talks about the ``backward`` thinking of folk. i have seen it myself in the educated pakistanis. yes, we have our apologists aplenty. . . way too many and that is a crying shame. all i am saying is when you just go on about ``them`` and ``they``, be specific about who you are referring to because even those pakistanis who are afraid of reprisals (and there have been reprisals not just for the pakistanis, but again for the sikhs as was here after 9/11) are not necessarily ALL apologists. and so no, i`m not going to talk about how they should be packed back off to karachi, or driven into the sea, or anything like that.

this doesn`t make me a gullible fool. i have been angry and sad. and i do believe in karma.

so go throw your ``gullible fool`` stuff elsewhere. you are attacking and preaching to the wrong person.

can everyone get back to talking about imrana again?

Re: # 137 digit

I didn`t get your point entirely...... I think you are confused - so let me help you: this is not about RSS per se. RSS`s agenda of hate and anti-muslim vitriol is legendary and well-known. There is nothing to debate there.

This is about what is good for muslim community. TO get the drift of the discussion - You should start asking yourself this question: ``Is Muslim Personal Law good for muslims``? If your answer is yes - then I have nothing to say to you.

If your answer is NO - then welcome to the club - My point was that - since MPL is bad for muslims, it should be abolished. Now the problem is - that happen to be the position of RSS. So now what do we do? I say - let`s go ahead and do what we think is good for muslims? ...... who cares what RSS says or does?

Jawahara sort of agrees with that - she may still have some reservations .... Actaully I am not sure what her position is. But anyway - that`s where the matter stands.

digit

My dear friend, you cannot defend every silliness and every injustice using the argument that R.S.S. opposes it.

digit

But the village idiots did suggest the lady marry her rapist, and that idiotic suggestion did carry the imprint of some religion on it.

Is this not something you would be upset about, or worry what religion these idiots are learning? Is it wise to label people as idiots and be done with the matter?

mohar11,

So when Muslims complain about the BJP&RSS, the latter inciting and participating in mass murder, it`s simply a a hang-up.

Yet when the Deoband allegedly issue a fatwa that Imrana must leave her husband, it`s cause enough to use her rape as ammunition against the concept of Muslim Personal Law? Especially by the BJP and their ilk who are not only agitating against MPL, but have a well known anti-Muslim agenda?

I think the politicization of this rape has gone too far. If anything is a hang-up, it`s over the alleged deoband fatwa.

If calling a spade-a-spade supports the RSS agenda, then it is those people who would actually rush into the arms of the RSS by simply stating truisms that should be cautioned, not those like Jawahara.

If people are mentally unstable enough to start pondering and validating what the RSS espouses, then really...it`s not the so-called ``prejudice`` against the RSS which is driving people into their arms. More like internalized hate finding a means of validated public expression.

There`s no getting in the way of people who WANT to hate. They`ll find their own reasons even if the targret of hate sits still and does nothing.

#128 by _digit

[burpinder,

Garbage? More like context. If I go off quoting blindly from the bible or the Gita or whatever without understanding the context of the text, I`m likely to look the fool. Trust me, the Quran (which is chalk full of implicit references to historical events) is no different. ]


I had said the following in a previous post:


[You may not realize, it, but this is very high on the list of typical Muslim responses to any accusation regarding their religion.

Usually the Muslim responses are one of the following:

1) Other Religions also do it.

2) You are misinterpreting the Quran. Under the ``correct`` translation it means exactly the opposite - ``love thy enemy``.

3) You are Quoting out of context.

4) You obviously hate Muslims, therefore you must be wrong.

etc.etc. ]



Why don`t you explain the context of the following:



9:123 Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.

9: 5 Slay the idolaters wherever you find them

9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior

3: 85 Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers.

5: 11 And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell``

9: 28 O you who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbeleivers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, …

2: 193 Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

22: 19“As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods. “




Maybe you`re right. Maybe we TRULY ARE ignorant of the context.

And you are not.

So please.

Now they are having mass diaareha in UK.........they are scared shi t of reprisals........what do they expect sewian and firni?

if a piece of paper with alleged quranic message gets burnt, they go berserk with killing frenzy.....here they killed 50+ persons, and expect no reprisals...........

they should thank their lucky stars that they live in civilized countries.otherwise, they would be boarding ships for Karachi by now.

Ana,

I am tired of playing `been` infront of a `maj`.........its futile. i stop playing the been.

#129 by kaurasach

Thanks to kaurasach for pointing this out...

Islam turns Muslims in to Namak Haramis. UK is a great example. Holland and Belgium are other great examples. Really think about this people.... these turds come to western countries and embassies practically begging for Asylum or Visas. The western governments not only give them Asylum but also feed them welfare or housing or whatever. And these turds are audacious enough to spout hatred on the hand that feeds them. These egyptian or pakistani turds don`t just come to western countries... they bring their egypt or Pakistan or Yemen with them. Very much like Mexicans in US.

kaurasach:

before you go off on another one of your tirades. . . where the hell have i defended any of the ``apologists of the fanatics``. you seriously need to check yourself when you refer to all of us as gullible fools. not buying into your rhetoric or theirs doesn`t make me a gullible fool. gall aayi samajh vich?

keep living in the world you do. it will catch up with you too. telling the truth is one thing. being a hatemongerer is something else, and you do come damn close to the latter more often than not.

--
My personal assumptions is that, as the time goes by, more and more Muslims are being convinced that either there is no need for dialogue or it is of no use. Battle lines for ``Third World War`` are being drawn shraper by the minute.

you mean we`ve been involved in ``dialogue`` all these years? i had no idea. bah`r haal, let`s now label chowk as a site for ``victimization`` too now shall we?