Being Imrana

#49 by mohar11 : Opposing UCC just because RSS supports it would be like ``cutting your nose to spite the face``[or whatever that proverb is]

That might be true. However, I think the source of the change does need to be looked at. I also don`t want to play into the hands of Hindu fundamentalists and their own agenda because it gives them a perfect opportunity to piggyback other less savory items attached to this issue.. I acknowledgment I am torn about this but I think the desire for UCC needs to come from within the ranks not because of external pressure.

#48 by vagabond78

Just because a judge makes a ruling does not make it right. Of course, the judge was being patriarchal and insensitive. Just as another judge was so when he said a woman wearing a short skirt practically forced the rapist to rape her. Just as another one was when he said it was unnatural and therefore, obviously a lie that a father had raped his 8 year old daugher and that the mother must be *evil* and had made up lies. This was said without looking at the evidence. When a crime is committed, the perpetrator cannot start making deals outside the court. In the case you mention the perpetrator was (in my opinion) further victimizing the victim by a ridiculous proposal of marriage. The crime has to be prosecuted.This is not family court we are dealing with a crime against a citizen. It was not the judges decision to delay the judgment. If the rape victim had said `I do` then yes, his hands were tied but until that happened it was not his call to make. He was there to preside over a case not be a cog in a patriarchial system.

At one point in time slavery was legal in the United States. It did not make it right.

In a country like India where societal pressure is great and women (apart from some in the urban centers) are taught that they are inferior, that they should not be heard, that they should suffer in silence, a judiciary that does not takes this into account (and in fact is sometimes prey to these same ideas) is in effect victimizing them further. Rapists and other perpetrators depend on women being blamed for rapes. They depend on women being cowed into submission by the larger society. We don`t need judges who become part of this larger society. We need them to impartially preside over cases and decide them on the merit of the arguments and the evidence. That`s it.

From a well-known Islamist website, a blurb about someone who had confronted the Mullah who had issued the fatwa. What is it they say about power?

http://islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/04/article04.shtml

To quote:

A Noida-based Urdu newspaper, Rashtriya Sahara, asked the mufti in India`s premier Muslim seminary, Darul Uloom Deoband, to give his opinion.

The mufti, Maulana Habibur Rahman, without ascertaining the facts of the case or going to the area or sending someone there to find out the truth, issued a fatwa on June 25, saying Imrana ``is now haram (forbidden) for her husband and should leave him``.

``We have obtained a copy of this fatwa and asked Mufti Habibur Rahman certain questions. He was unable to counter our argument that the Qur`anic injunction (``And marry not women whom your fathers married…`` 4:22) does not apply here,`` says this correspondent.

``The mufti gave us some references to support his view but when we read them, they did not seem to support the mufti`s interpretation which is the opinion of some Hanafi fuqaha (scholars) who consider rape also as a cause for prohibiting such marriages.

``We confronted the mufti again. This time he referred us to another maulana who, he said, was present in the meeting when the decision was taken. We asked him, why should we go to someone else when he (Mufti Habibur Rahman) had signed the fatwa. Seemingly he was not pleased with our argument and asked us to write down whatever ``problems`` we had in mind. We did this promptly and are still waiting for his reply.``

Other schools of thought like Shafi`i, Maliki, Jaafari Shia and Ahl-e Hadees reject this interpretation, as they hold that only legitimate marriage is meant in the Qur`anic injunction and a crime does not change the rule.

Just one day after our interaction June 29, the mufti`s office announced Friday, July 1, that the previous fatwa was not about Imrana, which is factually incorrect. While the name ``Imrana`` is not mentioned in the question to which the fatwa was given, her village and district are mentioned. Moreover, the July 3 issue of Rashtriya Sahara Urdu newspaper carries an article by Mufti Habibur Rahman which explicitly mentions the name of Imrana and pronounces the same opinion he earlier expressed in his fatwa.

The All India Muslim Personal Law Board, too, has now distanced itself from that fatwa and will soon reconsider the issue, says IOL correspondent.

Re: # 48 vaga

I think harimau is right. Rape is also a crime against the state. If it is NOT so in India - then it should be made so. So should be the dowry offence.... No matter what the victim says - the state must prosecute the offender. Because otherwise, the rapist might go on to rape others. The dowry seeker will seek the same elsewhere.

Haven`t you seen ``Law and Order :)?

Re: # 45 jawahara
//....I, for one, am getting really tired of my fellow-Muslims not truly looking within, not understanding what it is that we might need to debate, discuss and perhaps change....//

You are not alone ..... we all are very tired of muslims not truly looking within. It`s frustrating and sometimes infuriating.

++++

//...I would rather be subject to a uniform civil code with the rights it promises than Muslim Personal Law. Of course, since I don`t trust the BJP/RSS, etc. who are the entities that push that agenda for their own reasons, I feel quite trapped as well...//

if you think UCC is good - then you should support it, no matter what RSS position is on that issue. Paradoxically, that will take the wind out of the RSS propaganda sails........ It will also show that muslims are finally taking charge of their destiny - they are finally breaking the shackle of the self-imposed orthodxy and backwardness. .... And that will work wonders in the inter-community relations.

Opposing UCC just because RSS supports it would be like ``cutting your nose to spite the face``[or whatever that proverb is]

+++

Overall, a good post.

Re: # 46

No sir I beg to disagree. If you remember, a few months back there was a rape trial in India wherein just before the final judgement the accused proposed marriage to the victim and the judge deferred the verdict and asked the prosecution to respond. The woman responded by requesting the bench to hang him and the indignant media and womens groups accused the judiciary for being partiarchal and insensitive towards the victim.

But the learned judge knew what he was doing and so must you. Same applies to Nisha Sharma`s case as well.

The prosecution may present whatever evidence but if Imrana says `My FIL didnt rape me` or Nisha Sharma (or the victim I mentioned above) says `I do`, the judge can do nothing but dismiss the case forthright.

Murder or homicide is a different case altogether. In Indian law even suicide is a crime.

Re: # 42

Most laughable is the suggestion that we learn from Turkey! This when Kofi Annan requests India to lease constitutional experts to help in writing constitutions for Iraq, Afghanistan and other African nations. No doubt an Indian presence will greatly enhance the moral authority of the panel because of the goodwill and respect India has in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it also reflects the quality of Indian constitutional gurus.

Ref vagabond78 #22

[My opinion is that it remains a domestic matter till they come out and seek redressal from societal law.]

And you would be wrong.

[And even after that if they go back and settle their dispute then arun jaitleys, deoband mullahs, law, police and the courts have no business to interfere.]

The prosecution has every right to conduct the case based on evidence. The victim might refuse to testify in court but today the oral testimony of the witness is no longer needed to prove rape. We have got something called DNA that would nail the rapist.

[Since the author mentioned Nisha Sharma: What if she had decided to go ahead with the marriage and withdrawn her statement? Do the courts and the police have locus standi then? So..]

The police might withdraw the case because they have other things to do but they do have a right to arrest the groom and his family under the Dowry Act. The evidence of a car, two refrigerators, air conditioners, etc., would all be admissible in court.

Just because in Arab societies you can get blood money in exchange for withdrawing a case of death by murder doesn`t mean in India you can withdraw a murder case. There is an overriding socital interest in punishing the guilty.

That is why in England and the US and Europe, they don`t condone honor killings but prosecute the family for murder. Unlike Pakistan.

This case has truly resonated with most people who have heard of it. I need to read Rushdie`s article more closely as well.

But if you can put the blame on the failure of the Indian state (a large, complex institution) why do you have a problem with him blaming other institutions like the Sharia law and the Deobandi sect? Why are they sacrosanct?

I, for one, am getting really tired of my fellow-Muslims not truly looking within, not understanding what it is that we might need to debate, discuss and perhaps change. Yes, she is a citizen of India and her victimization in this way is a failure of the state. But she is also part of the Ummah, part of her community and that too has failed her, pure and simple.

We have to face the fact that even if the Quran denounces rape it also makes it very difficult for a woman to prove rape and to get it prosecuted. Even if you disagree with that, for the common, poor Muslim living in a village a fatwa (justified or not) given by the local maulvi (who claims to interpret the Quran) holds more water than the actual text which s/he in most cases does not understand even if s/he can read it by rote.

So, what is the solution? I am equally confused as everyone else, though as an Indian Muslim woman myself I would rather be subject to a uniform civil code with the rights it promises than Muslim Personal Law. Of course, since I don`t trust the BJP/RSS, etc. who are the entities that push that agenda for their own reasons, I feel quite trapped as well.

The media`s only responsibility is to find good, and interesting stories and to keep the public informed. To blame them for Imrana`s plight is rather disingenuous. Of course they are in the business of selling more papers and time slots or whatever. But what about the responsibility of the framework within which most poorer Muslims live in India?

India is not perfect. There are tons of problems. But I also know of poorer Muslims that refuse to educate their children, especially their daughters, even if there are opportunities to do so. There were families for which my parents offered to pay for the girls to go to a good school who turned the offers down. They would rather have that money for dowries or for their sons. Whose fault is that? Not just the fault of poverty and ignorance because there was at least one family (from this same group) that did educate their daughter who is now an independent, educated young woman.

This is not to say that these problems do not exist in the larger Hindu society as well and this is not to negate the very real problems of communalism. But at some point, at some time we have to look within ourselves and brutally analyze ourselves and acknowledge that we too are part of the problem. That we cannot always blame others for all our problems.

Whether or not the fatwa was issued for this case is irrelevant really. Because the very fact that it was issued at all shows us something. This is what these men (I was going to type people here but that would be wrong) think. This is how they would rule if a similar case came in front of them. It certainly makes me think of other women in similar circumstances who have never come forward.

Also, I too have a problem with someone *facilitating* their own rape. Someone can facilitate their having sex, that is a matter of personal choice. Rape, however, is defined by the fact that the perpetrator forces the victim. There is either a physical or psychological threat inherent in the act. It is not an act of sex, but rather an act of force and/or violence that is acted out through the sex act.

To avoid issues like this in the future individuals, the society (religious and secular), the community, the legal system and yes, the nation, all have to examine themselves equally.

Ref Succubus #9

[FYI

Imrana: The Rape That Never Was
Adil Salahi, Arab News

..... A local junior scholar, or maulavi, told the council that the woman was now forbidden for her husband as she was like his mother now, and that she should marry the rapist...]

If Imrana`s husband goes to the criminal courts to get his father punished for rape and continues to live with his wife, does that make him, gasp, a motherf@#%er?

Can he be declared a motherf@#%er ex post facto for having had sex with his wife BEFORE she was raped by his father, thus turning her into his mother?

Where does Islam stand on this?

Do I have to go to the Deoband Seminary for an answer on this? Do you know if fatwa-online.com would enlighten us?

harimou you are in a jovial mood today

Ref ozerkhalid #1

[...The up-keep of personal family laws in Bharat bears testimony to the pluralism and dynamism of the Indian legal system, harking toward a Uniform Civil Code through the auspices of Article 44 would tantamount to legal hegemonisation...a path India should not tread toward.... Uniform Civil Codes as has been proved in Turkey are no ``magic wands``....... ]

I suppose currently there is no de facto hegemonization of Muslims in India. Heck, you fcukers have to take Holi, Kali Puja, Diwali (with its firecrackers waking you up in the morning in the South), Buddha Poornima (with nuclear explosions no less), Mahaveer Jayanthi and Baisakhi while you are permitted by the hegemons to not attend school and to keep your women barefoot, pregnant and in purdah.

What we need to do in India is to catch all these Deoband mullahs and give them a free sex-change operation. We would then see a different type of fatwa coming from their vaginas.... it would be far better than what they are pulling out of their arses now!

My GOD..How come Muslims are dictated by antiquated laws and Fatwas ? that too by Mullahs?
Is it justice that a Rapist who raped her daughter in law should get a present as her marraige?
Is Allah looking on earth ?

Hi Zafar,

Nice to see you back on this forum. I follow your posts on sulekha with interest. Boy, are there a lot of nuts there !

The media has done a good job on this issue. There was also good coverage of the child weddings in MP and Rajasthan. Frontline (Hindu weekly magazine) had a special issue devoted to this topic.

As you point out, no amount of journalism can substitute for good jobs and general economic health. But will our politicians ever permit economic growth and better education? I really wonder about it.

Re: # 18
``The raped woman is a victim and cannot be punished, unless it is proven that she had encouraged, or tempted, or otherwise facilitated her own rape.``

``You are a sick man! A woman`s is outraged and all you think about is whether she abetted it in any way. If we were to follow this line of argument, there will be no woman who`ll be able to step out of her house without getting assualted by savages of your ilk. Even if the woman is wearing salwar, saree or ghaghra choli, there will surely be some people who`ll find their libido titillated and blood rushing to their groins because of her appearance. These people can then rape the woman and justify the criminal act by saying that the victim abetted it by wearing provocative clothes. What a perverted, asinine and skewed logic!

And for God`s sake don`t ever use the word facilitate in the same sentence as rape, decent people will throw up when they read such pathetic sentence formation.``

Can any Co-religionists or divinity students shed light on the matter of rape and religion. Does this subject get treated in any of the other Seminal Religious Texts?
PRK

Re: # 24
``If the muslim woman is not able to produce 4 adult muslim witnesses to her rape , she will be deemed to have , as Mian Anjum Saheb put it so eloquently , ``encouraged , or tempted , or facilitated her own rape`` ....and stoned to death instead. ``
I am told this is not the REAL islam. But then one is left askng WHAT IS?
Why are the Sunnis and Shias killling each other in their places of worship?
PRK

``What I am saying is that apart from all these things, Muslims need education and jobs to come out of their ghettoized lives. Give every Imrana a solid education and open a window of modern life in their courtyards, then you will see them cocking a snook at the so-called obscurantism of Islam.``

This is a very good suggestion ....,,but obviously there are well entrenched political powers who never want this to happen...Laloo never let poor Biharis get properly educated ....and that`s how he has been able to remain in power.................IM are similarly dragged down by these mullahs and other so called spokesperson of the faith...........I agree that the State has to intervene and come up with programmes exclusively for the secular education of muslim girl child.