Being Imrana

with all due respect, a few of the indians lumped into hating muslims or bashing muslims have never said a hateful word about islam or muslims from what i can read. they are virulently anti-pakistan for their own reasons which i cannot understand completely nor would i agree with. that the pakistanis happen to be muslim is important only so far as what pakistan`s involvement with ``religious`` extremists who sponsor attacks on their soil has been. and that extremism has gone much further than the boundaries of the ``sub-continent.``

when we can acknowledge that there is a difference between being anti-muslim, and anti-pakistan (how does one explain the anti-pakistan stance of certain indian muslims here?) then perhaps we can ask other questions and face some truths. the fact is that once again all you all`s have diverted the topic which was about being imrana, into something else and no one here knows what being imrana is all about.

Romair#206:

There are elements of truth -not the whole truth- in what you say and there is not one but several factors, in my opinion, that expalin this:

- If you notice most of the virulent attackers of Islam have declared themselves to be atheists or agnostics.

- Hindus do not take religion as seriously as Muslims or even Sikhs. Irreverance for religions seems to be in the Hindu genes. That includes their own religion. There is no concept of blasphemy. You are a self-confessed Hindi film fan and must have noticed that they routinely make jokes about Hanuman, Ganesh, Ram and Krishna. There seem to be no sacred cows (except the holy cow, of course :)). There have been films like Lajja which openly challenged the traditional icons of Ramayan and they were box office hits. At the peak of the Brahmin power in the South, some anti-brahmin leaders freely hurled insults and abuses at the Hindu religion. Far from hanging them, they were able to win elections and are now the rulers of Tamil Nadu.

- Debating and arguing about each other`s religious beliefs is also not prohibited in the Hindu tradition. In fact, ``shastr-arth``, or religious discussions is a hoary and time-honoured technique. My reading of the ancient Indian literature is that Buddha used this technique to convert several people to his panth/sect (the concept of religion being itself alien at that time on the subcontinent); similarly Shankaracharya used the same technique to reestablish brahminism. I have read that some early Jesuits also used the same technique in India.

- Hindus do not let religious arguments get in the way of personal relations. You can find an Arya Samaji ridiculing an idol worshipping Hindu one day and discussing marriage arrangement with him for his daughter the next day (presuming he is of the same caste, which the Arya Samaji does not believe in theory).

- Islam has become a free-for-all in the post 9/11 world. It has almost become cool to ridicule Islam.

- This is chowk where people derive pleasure out of seeing others squirm. And Hindian chowkies have discovered that the easiest way to rile Pakistanis is by needling them about their holy book and, especially, their prophet. Pakistanis have discovered, on the other hand, that the easiest way to provoke Hindians is to attack their country and its secular credentials.

You have already mentioned some others, such as the anonymity of chowk.

Tom Friedman writes in NYT >>


Islam has a long tradition of tolerating other religions, but only on the basis of the supremacy of Islam, not equality with Islam. Islam`s self-identity is that it is the authentic and ideal expression of monotheism. Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0.

Part of what seems to be going on with these young Muslim males is that they are, on the one hand, tempted by Western society, and ashamed of being tempted. On the other hand, they are humiliated by Western society because while Sunni Islamic civilization is supposed to be superior, its decision to ban the reform and reinterpretation of Islam since the 12th century has choked the spirit of innovation out of Muslim lands, and left the Islamic world less powerful, less economically developed, less technically advanced than God 2.0, 1.0 and 0.0.

Romair , why does it bother you so much that a couple of anonymous internet nicks with Indian sounding names are abusing your `religion` , when the entire populations of USA and Europe are doing the same...not just in internet chats...but in real life too....

Why are muslims so hated , Romair ? Or is it your opinion that only certain anonymous internet nicks with Indian sounding names hate muslims ? Think about it.

``your pedophile prophet (P be upon him)........``

Hey Romair..those words were mine. But why do you think those words were abusive ? Was it not a fact that your man Mohammad (P be upon him , of course) was 55 years old when he married a 6 year old child called Ayesha ? What does that make him ?

Also...it does not behove chutiyas like you to talk of `courage`...reflect on that.

#206 by Romair on July 15, 2005 3:33pm PT


I (a retired Pakistani Captain!)


luckily I wasn`t reading this over a cup of coffee...paid a lot of money for this laptop..don`t want coffee sprayed all over it.... and coffee out the nostrils can be nasty....

Jawahara #181: ``They are our family friends, sometimes even members of our family, our best friends at school, our bosses and our servants, our neighbors........Hope that answered your question.``

Thanks for the honest answer......

This is what I am trying to figure: I probably hang around with more Indian Hindus than most Indian expatriates do. It is impossible not to, while being in the CS industry. In fact, I hang around with ten times as many Indians as I do with Pakistanis, at work. Since that is the ratio in the CS industry of Indians and Pakistanis..........

For the past 11 years, they have been my classmates, my business partners, my professors, my students, my colleauges. And family friends. My advisor, who literally dragged me through graduate studies, by hook or by crook, was an Indian Hindu. My accountant, who has all my business`s money is an Indian Hindu. I am in touch with Indian Hindu VCs. The guy who is paying my salary, on my current project is an Indian. My wife`s next door neighbor, while she was in college, was an Indian Hindu family. Her three best friends, today, at work are Indian Hindus and/or Sikhs.

My wife and I are, now, perhaps the most popular personalities at our local Hindu/Sikh friends` parties. They invite us before they invite their other Hindu/Sikh friends. Three weeks ago, a retired Indian Captain Sardarji and I (a retired Pakistani Captain!) stole the show, dancing, at a Sikh party. Him and I even exchange war stories, now. We are going to another one of our Hindu friends party tomorrow. In fact, we have to refuse invitations now, since we get so many from our Indian friends..........We have even been a part of arranging a marraige between two Sikh friends!!

Not to mention the fact, that for a decade, almost every other day, I have been eating lunch with Indians. Not an exageration........One would think, one would know someone, after all this. During this whole experience, I have never once (not an exageration) had a negative experience. They have all been extremely nice.

But the statistics do not fit, which I have just started noticing. I have to assume that my relations with them are too formal, and I am not getting the real picture. Why do I say that?

I could understand if 75% of the Indians on sites like this, showed hatred towards Pakistanis. That is part of the game. And Pakistanis would do the same. But I just cannot understand how 75% or more could show outright hatred for a religion. Any religion. And 100% more importantly, if it is the religion of their own countryfolk!! It is not an argumentative hatred. It is blantant oozing hatred that one sees here.

That is just unacceptable. In fact, I have deliberately pushed the buttons of some of the very moderate Indians on this site, to see how far they go. And lo and behold!! push them far enough on a political issue, and they will be talking about my God and their God. My Book and their Book. I don`t even think they realize what they are doing, since they are, otherwise, too nice to hurt someon. I think it is just something that they seem to think, to be normal........

Even though, I have been a magnet for abuse on this site, but have never once, gone after anyone`s religion. I couldn`t type the words, even if I wanted to.........And I cannot imagine 75% of Pakistanis, at least on this site, go after Chritian or Hindu Pakistanis, with such oozing religious hatred..............About 30% or so go after Ahmeids, which would describe the worst case of such hatred.......But another 25% or so try to stop them, as well.......

So, something is missing in my Math. Either this site just gets a disproportionately high number of individuals who will go after, even their own countryfolk`s religion. Or my vast personal experiences with Indian Hindus, are actually too superficial. And I don`t know them, well enough............Slowly, but, unfortunately, surely, I am tilting towards the later......

#203 by arjun_m on July 15, 2005 2:47pm PT

”This ain`t pakiland where you passport has your religion on it....”

… it is on the forehead instead….hehehehe

Mike/Kaalchakra/Cayenne/arjun/etc.:

Not a single one of you has addressed the issue, that I highlighted. Not one. In fact, some have actually added to the hatred. Here are the additions:

``Typical pak-muslim reaction.........your pedophile prophet (P be upon him)........

You are all trying to spin it, one way or the other. Or blame me. I am not talking about Muslim Peronal Law in India. Have any view on it that you want. It`s your country. But why does that need to be expressed with the outright hatred of your co-citizens` religion, or anyone`s religion. Let`s assume I am the biggest evil in the world. How does that change the comments you make, abusing religions; that too the religion of your own countrymen?

Once again, I challenge you to find any place where I may have made such comments about Hinduism, or any other religion..........Why don`t I do so? It has nothing to do with being friendly with India. I am, personally, least bothered by it, because I know I am secure. I know no one could make such a comment to me in person, or in any city I live in. Obviously, none of you would have the courage to come to Lahore and make these comments. But I am still looking for someone to seriously address the following. Either explain it or, at least, take some responsibility for it..........or accept it as something you solidly believe in..........

---

``why dont you leave the Indian state and go to the Land Of The Pure ? Surely you will be happier there. And please take everybody with you.............If the, er, `author` who wrote this above here work of fiction gets thrown outta Singapore, where would he be heading to??.Mecca??.Medina??.harhar.......while you are permitted by the hegemons to not attend school and to keep your women barefoot, pregnant and in purdah.....Cloaked lies, agendas, conclusion, intentions.........what else to expect from a muslim......blame others, Jews, India`s state system........It wasn your/religious narrow mindedness, archaic, dark, inhuman teachings.....they just want kufrs to be unsuspecting of their intentions......till the kufrs are helpless........and easy to be converted....till then blame others for their own kanjarpana......... filthy liars.....I don`t go around savagely killing.......Muslims all over the world have only one agenda - assimilate non-muslims into Islam. Muslims themselves never assimilate into any society........ This is true of India.....Come on guys! Let us GIVE the Muslims what they WANT and MORE!....Any takers? Jawahara? Ana? _digit? Umbertoeco? Urstruly? Khamkhwa.? Ozerkhalid? Zafar Anjum? Dost-Mittar?......Usually the Muslim responses are one of the following:1) Other Religions also do it.2) You are misinterpreting the Quran. Under the ``correct`` translation it means exactly the opposite - ``love thy enemy``. 3) You are Quoting out of context.4) You obviously hate Muslims, therefore you must be wrong...... they are scared shi t of reprisals........what do they expect sewian and firni?.......they should thank their lucky stars that they live in civilized countries.otherwise, they would be boarding ships for Karachi by now..........Is this not something you would be upset about, or worry what religion these idiots are learning?.......``

#202 by Dalit on July 15, 2005 2:11pm PT


Hehehe! Christians? ….Got ID?


This ain`t pakiland where you passport has your religion on it....

#193 by Mike

“Also..some of the people you stupid pakis mistake for horrible hindooos are not even hindus in the first place....Arjun , Alephnull , and that crazy Cayenne/Nikki are actually christians..Roman Catholics if my guess is correct...”

Hehehe! Christians? ….Got ID?

Dalit..wow man , I`m shocked !! Now what about the 100,000 Kashmiri muslim women raped by the Indian Army ? And the killing of 200,000 Kashmiri muslims ? Post some articles on that most important issue ...okay...expose the bloody Indian b@#$#% !!!

Are the webmasters of this site following their obligation as citizens/residents of western democracy to report IP`s of islamic extremist elements to the relevant authorities?

Nice try , again Dalit.Especially since your source (the web address) has a .UK.Guess who`s gonna git thrown outta the UK?.Time`s UP for this kind of bullshit you and your kind have been spreading about india.Time to reap what you and your kind have sown.

#175

In india they are also known as

``The hindus of monkey dal(party) and riot sangh (Sangh perivaar). ``

#175 Romair

More for you...

``All of them are attributable to Hindu politics of hate and revenge against Muslims and Islam for their supposed sins of 1000 year of Hindu-Muslim encounter in India including partition of the country. But the success of the politics of hate and revenge has depended entirely on the fragility and malfunctioning of the institutions of rule of law i.e. the administration, the police and the judiciary. Given the politics of hate and revenge, given the partisan role of the police and the administration as well as the communal prejudices and biases against Muslims in officers and personnel who man the law enforcement machinery, as noted by national and international human rights organisations and including official Commissions of inquiries and given the negligible representation of Muslims in the police and other wings of this machinery, and given the fact that the judiciary has failed to come to their rescue by delivering speedy justice, the lot of Muslims can very well be imagined. ``