Being Imrana

Romair,

I`ve noticed the same.

The Indians I know (most of whom are Hindu), though, have small-town roots. Really humble people, but they have a dignity about them and don`t display the sense of insecurity at wrongs, real or imagined, committed some hundreds of years ago.

I`ve noticed the trend on other forums as well. I don`t know what the root of this frustration is, but I do think their presence here on chowk vastly overstates their number. Unlike most sane minded Hindus, these type seem to seek out fora to vent their anger.

Then there`s the anonymous nature of the net, which seems to embolden people. But then, that leads us to the mode of thought that the Hindus we know are in fact much like the hate mongers here, but simply hide their hate in our presence...I`d rather not think that as it`s unfair and improper.

Also Romair , we dont need to be told what the consequences would be if we expressed our honest opinion about your religion in your homeland. Hell Daniel Pearl said nothing derogative about your pedophile prophet (P be upon him) , but still got cut into 2 parts because he was born a jew. A couple of British citizens of Pakistani origin go to Pakistan for a visit , and come back as suicide bombers....

Romair . Dunno if you have noticed , but we live in a post 9-11 world . So what do Americans think of muslims ? What do the Europeans think of muslims ? What do the Brits now think of muslims ?

And why ?

re: romair # 175

Come on, you HAVE asked the same question before, at least once, and probably more than once. Every time you give it the same spin, ``How do you feel as an Indian Muslim?,`` ``I don`t speak about Hinduism.`` etc. :)

I am frankly surprised that a man of intelligence continues to be so determinedly blind to Islam`s internal issues, and sees baleful conspiracies everwhere.

Jawahara/hindvi #: I have always wanted to ask someone this. And one of you (or both) may be the best person to ask. There is a very high amount of outright vulgar abuse against Islam and Muslims, by many of our Indian colleagues on this site. One can almost feel the oozing hatred, in the words.......

I meet so many Indians regularly. Our relations are very friendly. However, the moment I log onto this site, I see the religious abuse. I have to now, assume, some of the Indians I meet hold those feelings inside, but only display them here, where they can be anonymous.

I could understand if someone said that Pakistan practices State terrorism, and then tried to logically prove it, etc. But to say Muslims are fckers etc. is beyond my comprehension. Specifically, if so many of their own countryfolk are Muslims.......

Barring Dost-mittar, amrita and one or two other folks, I cannot find a single one of our Indian colleagues, who is not bent upon abuse of Muslims and/or Islam......And it seems like very genuine hatred.......

I don`t believe in getting into other people`s religions. Hence I never comment on Hinduism, netiher do I quote from Hinduism holy books, etc. Also, being from Pakistan, I can ignore the relgious abuse quite easily, knowing fully well that none of these guys would dare use such langauge if he/she ended up in Lahore or Karachi. He/she would be too afraid of getting a bloody nose. Usually such abuse is the resort of a coward.

However, how do you feel as an Indian Muslim? I can understand abuse against Pakistan (or India, in case of Pakistanis) which may not bother Indian Muslims or Pakistani Hindus, respectively. But abuse against Islam and Muslims is abuse against Indian Muslims.

In addition, there is another characteristic I have noticed. Even individuals who are otherwise, ``normal,`` and friendly indulge in it, in a subtle manner; perhaps without realizing it. In fact, they indulge in it almost nonchalantly. I don`t think they even know they are doing anything wrong. It is as if it is common practice. And Muslims are supposed to expect it. Kind of like calling a black guy, ``nigger`` during the early part of this century.....

Another thing I have noticed is that many individuals actually show genuine yet derogatory concern about Muslims, i.e. they assume they are better and want to help someone inferior: ``How can we help you Muslims get better?`` ``How can I get you out of your misery?`` ``Why don`t you let me improve you Muslims`` etc. It is a wierd combination of belittling someone, while simultaneoulsy showing concern for him.

In fact, I have met an individual on this site personally. And have been greatly disturbed by his comments, separating, ``my God,`` apparently from his. I was truly shocked to hear such comments, from someone I least expected it from.

I have also had the wierdest debates with, otherwise normal people, who are convinced that I am taught to be a rapist and killer, by my religion. They are totally convinced!! It would indicate that they think the Indian Muslims, amongst them in India, are taught the same.

And, it seems to be almost expected that the Muslim, on the receiving end, will quitely accept the condescending remark, or the abuse. I am not used to such abuse and regularly challenge them. The commentators seem truly suprised when someone challenges them, or shows them a mirror, or answers back in the same language putting them on the defensive, or tells them to stop their patronizing and take a hike.

I am quoting some comments below, that are outright abuse, towards Muslims. My aim is not to comment on Indian Muslims, or anything. I just wanted to get my hands around, how someone can just throw such filth around on other religions, specifically those of their own countrymen. And whether you see it differently than me. I would be interested in finding out from you, whether:

- this is something that is normal and faced daily by Indian Muslims
- It is something kept inside by commentators and shown only on websites anonymously
- It is abnormal and unique to Chowk, i.e. Chowk attracts such individuals for some reason
- Does it affect Indian Muslims? Does it scare them? Are they defensive?
- Are Indian Muslims expected to casually expect it, and simply walk off

---

``why dont you leave the Indian state and go to the Land Of The Pure ? Surely you will be happier there. And please take everybody with you.............If the, er, `author` who wrote this above here work of fiction gets thrown outta Singapore, where would he be heading to??.Mecca??.Medina??.harhar.......while you are permitted by the hegemons to not attend school and to keep your women barefoot, pregnant and in purdah.....Cloaked lies, agendas, conclusion, intentions.........what else to expect from a muslim......blame others, Jews, India`s state system........It wasn your/religious narrow mindedness, archaic, dark, inhuman teachings.....they just want kufrs to be unsuspecting of their intentions......till the kufrs are helpless........and easy to be converted....till then blame others for their own kanjarpana......... filthy liars.....I don`t go around savagely killing.......Muslims all over the world have only one agenda - assimilate non-muslims into Islam. Muslims themselves never assimilate into any society........ This is true of India.....Come on guys! Let us GIVE the Muslims what they WANT and MORE!....Any takers? Jawahara? Ana? _digit? Umbertoeco? Urstruly? Khamkhwa.? Ozerkhalid? Zafar Anjum? Dost-Mittar?......Usually the Muslim responses are one of the following:1) Other Religions also do it.2) You are misinterpreting the Quran. Under the ``correct`` translation it means exactly the opposite - ``love thy enemy``. 3) You are Quoting out of context.4) You obviously hate Muslims, therefore you must be wrong...... they are scared shi t of reprisals........what do they expect sewian and firni?.......they should thank their lucky stars that they live in civilized countries.otherwise, they would be boarding ships for Karachi by now..........Is this not something you would be upset about, or worry what religion these idiots are learning?.......``

Re: # 175

SOUR GRAPES.Typical pak-muslim reaction.You love to dish it out, but when you are at the receiving end you become cry-babies.My disagreement with Zafar Anjum has nothing to do with his religion.His elitism makes me want to vomit.He is so typically indian and elite.His residence in Singapore is in large part due to the liberal regime between the two countries and his own nationality.Singapore other than Nepal is the only country that has a Hindu head of state.Even India, with more than 800 million hindus canot lay claim to the above.Our Commander-in-Chief and Head of govt. are from minority communities.

I have spirited debated with my indian muslim friends and at the end of the day we go home indians, whether it is in my homeland (USA) or my current domicile(India).In India we , meaning all indians, poke fun at each other`s culture, religion and ethnicity, which at some times can get out of hand, in most part is kept within limits by all concerned.There is a lot of divergence within each community even.For eg., the recent controversy over the Taj mahal has muslims in stitches , before the larger indian community can get worked up about it.

Thanks to Harish Nambar, i found out that Dawood Ibrahim is of konkan descent like myself.Indian muslims are as diverse as our nation is.The fact that not only the IMF, the World Bank and the G-8 have recognized us as one of the leading economies of the world is our testimony to the united purpose of the indian diaspora.If indians in india weren`t united this achievement would not have been possible.And, that`s something i know you and your kind cannot fathom.

Urstruly …

Fellow chowkies are interested in finding out more about Ahmadi conspiracies (re #168). Kindly enlighten us ... you’ve made comments along these lines in the past … and this is a good opportunity to air your grievances.

So what would it be? Are you full of hot air … or what??

Jawahara:

You were absolutely correct that we all have our prejudices and the best way to deal with our prejudices is to recognize them. You could have added that sometimes they also lead us to illogical conclusions. This seems to be the case here with you. If liberal Muslims lead an agitation for a UCC, it would take the wind out of the sails of the RSS types instead of adding to it. However, if they lead this agitation and succeed despite opposition from enlightened muslims, that certainly would be a victory for them. BTW a UCC would imply a change not only in MPL but also in the Hindu Code and Chritian code although changes would be more severe in case of MPL.

This is regardless of this particular case which has degenerated into a media tamasha. There is little investigative reporting and a lot of hoopla. But then, responsibility has never been a hallmark of the media.

Re: # 169
If what you are saying is true then situation has not changed since the times of the Sikh Gurus i.e. last 500 yrs. But I do think that there is a reformed version of Islam around the corner waiting to pop open. As far as WW3 is concerned there is no power on this planet that can defeat the combined might of Western World led by Uncle Sam. Everybody knows it. It goes for not only Muslims but other countries as well. What would they fight with?

If what you are saying is true then Islam`s demise would happen due to economic disparity and civilizational gaps. I remember 20 yrs ago Pakistan used to be considered more prosperous than India and now India has reversed this in 20 yrs alone.

Also, another question for you. How could all of India not be Muslim in 1000 yrs of Muslim foreign rule?

kaalchakra, Mike,

Thanks for clarifying the identity of this guy.. Now I am not that surprised

- Avkrishna

I actually admire Imrana 1) for having the guts to report the rape 2) for seeking justice her way 3) for not falling prey to the NGO vultures who would have destroyed any chance of her uniting with her children and husband ,and 4) for being what she is ,an indian citizen , a muslim , a native of Uttar Pradesh and a mother.She has ruined the life of her father-in-law one way or another.That was her aim.All fancy talk by elites and others is just a waste of time.Mulayam got it.And, we deride our politicians!!!.

Re:delhiwala
``Why does these extremist Muslims even come to Western countries if they disagree with their Judeo-Christian culture and it`s values?``

Muslims all over the world have only one agenda - assimilate non-muslims into Islam. Muslims themselves never assimilate into any society. This is true of India, Europe, USA, you name it. Muslims can live for 1000 years in India, 60 years in UK or 30 years in USA. They will not change. Rather, they will slowly but surely change the society they are living in. In UK, muslim majority areas want to close down pubs. In France they want to wear hijab and live in their ghettos. Same goes in Holland. In India, partition helped in reducing this problem, but as time goes by, it is coming back again as the recent attack on Ayodhya indicates.

People like urstruly want third world war with non-muslims. I say, lets give it to them. If non-muslims all over the world can get together on this, we can get rid of this problem once and for all.

Muslims:
If India lets Muslims have shariat(Deobandi version) and Shariat delivers what it did to Imrana. It is India at fault. Bravo!

Hindus:
Islam is at fault because Shariat sounds so ridiculous, aren`t you scoring a point by rubbing salt here?


I think India should apply common law for all it`s citizens regardless of their religion. It sounds so stupid, Congress party in order to please Muslims lets them do whatever.

There are other Muslim countries that don`t have Shariat.
Why?

Urstruly (#157):

You’ve been dreaming up global ahmadi and jewish conspiracy theories much before any state of the union address ………. so why blame it on W. You are your own worst enemy ……

……. and whose mai baap asked you to get into senseless debates over who is and who is not a muslim ……... chasing others out of mosques ……… passing blasphemy laws ……… pushing for death for apostasy. These obsessions of yours blinded you ....... and your ullema misled you .......

Just revisit your own articles and responses on chowk ……. on defense of blasphemy laws .... on death for apostasy …….. on senseless jihad ideology .... What the hell were you thinking?? Did it ever cross your mind that such senseless violence will one day come full circle???? ........

Re: # 165
Sattar: I am just curious, did he really say ``Jewish and Ahmedi conspiracy theory``?

Man, this is so stupid. Like they said that 9-11 was caused by US. They are so stupid or just trying to cause confusion.

Why does these extremist Muslims even come to Western countries if they disagree with their Judeo-Christian culture and it`s values?

mohar11

I agree entirely, but the hurdle here is psychological, and of the issue of trust. Once those two devilish ingredients are thrown into the mix, people measure costs and benefits entirely differently. I don`t hold that against anyone. All of us are liable to do so.

This is where Hindu liberals need to step up to the plate. But the less said about Hindu liberals the better.