Political Sustainability, Media Freedom and Women
Saad Anis August 11, 2005
#1 Posted by theedge on August 11, 2005 1:37:34 am
All said and done, but dont we wonder what the General has done about things like the Zina Ordinence? Backed out in haste and fear. But yes, I do agree with you in saying that the awareness levels of the issues you have talked about have somewhat risen.
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#2 Posted by Inquirer on August 11, 2005 11:04:39 am
The upshot of all the discussion is this:
Pakistani women cannot get justice from Pakistani men till they are released from the sranglehold of antiquated priciples of Islam. Not all principles of Islam are antquated but enough are. This is exacerbated by the insecurities of Pakistani men and their desire to hide behind the Mullah mirage. Period.
Pakistani women cannot get justice from Pakistani men till they are released from the sranglehold of antiquated priciples of Islam. Not all principles of Islam are antquated but enough are. This is exacerbated by the insecurities of Pakistani men and their desire to hide behind the Mullah mirage. Period.
#3 Posted by arjun_m on August 11, 2005 11:42:42 am
Last year, Sarwar Mujahid from a local Urdu newspaper was picked up from his home at night in a commando operation, for reporting on the Okara Military Farms. Amir Mir of the Herald suffered similar harassment last year, while Shaheen Sehbai was driven abroad.
And yet pakis dispute their not-free press rating.....
#4 Posted by shankar on August 11, 2005 1:18:06 pm
{{However, it has been observed that the current regime has little patience with media coverage of specific issues that, in its view, threaten its image. Instances abound, of journalists being beaten up, harassed and even thrown in jail for reporting on sensitive issues. Last year, Sarwar Mujahid from a local Urdu newspaper was picked up from his home at night in a commando operation, for reporting on the Okara Military Farms. Amir Mir of the Herald suffered similar harassment last year, while Shaheen Sehbai was driven abroad. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) recorded over 50 attacks on journalists between 2002-04 with at least three killed, along with dozens harassed, arrested, tortured or threatened. Further, the recently proposed bill to grant sweeping powers to the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (PEMRA) does not augur well for the freedom of electronic media in times to come.}}
Every single dukkar military ruler who has usurped power in The Land of the Pure....claim(ed)
- I have done so with the utmost SINCEREITY, HUMILITY & sense of PATRIOTISM..
-If I had not done so...my beloved Pakistan would have gone down the tubes..
-Look how good I am--I will bring ``halwah``; whenever I go to Washington..
Then you Paki BUGGERS have the NERVE to judge Hindians about abusing human rights of ``enslaved`` Kashmiris?!
Nations that have shown FECKLESS/SHAMELESS morality towards their OWN citizens have NO leg to stand on...
when they judge others...
#5 Posted by Zakkk on August 11, 2005 2:24:11 pm
Civil society is the main protector of a societies rights and defines its responsibilities, that along with a system which ensures political stability. Musharrafs being a Military leader is not neccessarily a bad thing, however his failure to destablish a proper system is the real flaw. While I support democracy, if Musharraf had radically transformed the country for the better, I think the mood would not have soured as much.
#6 Posted by teshah on August 11, 2005 7:20:35 pm
Saad Anis
What a pity such a good article ended in the story of Mukhtaran Mai`s alleged rape. You are not to blame. Allama Iqbal had said years ago:
Hind keshaairo suratgaro afsaana nawis
Aah! bechaaron ke ehsab pih aurat he sawaar
I am sorry to say that our writers in general and even most intellectuals fail to differentiate between fact and fiction. It is so evident in Mai`s case as explained by me hereunder:-
I wonder how a low-cast woman of Mirwala, named Mukhtaran, became so famous, ‘honored’ and rich only because she was ‘dishonored ‘ by allegedly having been raped in compliance with a verdict of the village Panchayat, manifestly to avenge the dishonor of another woman of Mastoi tribe by Mai’s brother.
It was, as the story goes, first a village mullah, then the NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. No wonder the media also stepped in and made the best use of the sex story adding fuel to the fire. The western media gave extra-ordinary importance to the story not because there is dearth of rape stories in their own countries but because of their ulterior motive of vilifying Islam and the Muslim culture, which the Mai and her ‘fecking honor’ amply presented.
As I stated above it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman, which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the alleged misconduct of Mai’s brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. Mai’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many tongues. But as the facts of the case go the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. In the circumstances it is sheer injustice if any body sits in judgment over a case when one knows nothing even about the bare facts of the case. As it is such peoples are actually dishonoring Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.
Now what a display of ‘fecking honor’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgment of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘sex-bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of ‘honor’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.
As a matter of fact, sex as such, is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eyewitnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to ‘Qazaf’ to be condemned as a liar and vilifier and penalized severely. As it is the accuser of `Zina` himself remains in the dock till the evidence produced by him/her is accepted by the court. It is perhaps why Mai avoided going to the Shariat Court to be judged by Quranic Hadood Laws. That court had recently given a verdict in a rape case that the evidence of the woman, victim of rape in a rape case, is of no consequence. God forbid, if this is allowed, any whore can blackmail any man.
As regards rape and its consequences in Sharia, the ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India is quite pertinent. According to the ‘Fatwa’ it was held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this appears to be the adoption of an old Judaistic law that makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour.
It would perhaps be quite pertinent to quote here what the wise man of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He says, “ If you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy”. One envies Mukhtaran Mai as she is lucky to have the best of the two, nay, rather three worlds and is so happy having been made so rich and honored because of her alleged rape setting new values for the sex culture in our society.
What prompted me to write this post was the award of Maadare Millat Gold Medal to Mai, the raped by Ms Nilofar Bakhtiar, as it seemed to me a blatant perfidy and insult to the name of Maadare Millat to associate her name with a shameless raped woman so as to present her as a role model for our women.
What a pity such a good article ended in the story of Mukhtaran Mai`s alleged rape. You are not to blame. Allama Iqbal had said years ago:
Hind keshaairo suratgaro afsaana nawis
Aah! bechaaron ke ehsab pih aurat he sawaar
I am sorry to say that our writers in general and even most intellectuals fail to differentiate between fact and fiction. It is so evident in Mai`s case as explained by me hereunder:-
I wonder how a low-cast woman of Mirwala, named Mukhtaran, became so famous, ‘honored’ and rich only because she was ‘dishonored ‘ by allegedly having been raped in compliance with a verdict of the village Panchayat, manifestly to avenge the dishonor of another woman of Mastoi tribe by Mai’s brother.
It was, as the story goes, first a village mullah, then the NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. No wonder the media also stepped in and made the best use of the sex story adding fuel to the fire. The western media gave extra-ordinary importance to the story not because there is dearth of rape stories in their own countries but because of their ulterior motive of vilifying Islam and the Muslim culture, which the Mai and her ‘fecking honor’ amply presented.
As I stated above it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman, which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the alleged misconduct of Mai’s brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. Mai’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many tongues. But as the facts of the case go the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. In the circumstances it is sheer injustice if any body sits in judgment over a case when one knows nothing even about the bare facts of the case. As it is such peoples are actually dishonoring Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.
Now what a display of ‘fecking honor’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgment of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘sex-bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of ‘honor’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.
As a matter of fact, sex as such, is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eyewitnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to ‘Qazaf’ to be condemned as a liar and vilifier and penalized severely. As it is the accuser of `Zina` himself remains in the dock till the evidence produced by him/her is accepted by the court. It is perhaps why Mai avoided going to the Shariat Court to be judged by Quranic Hadood Laws. That court had recently given a verdict in a rape case that the evidence of the woman, victim of rape in a rape case, is of no consequence. God forbid, if this is allowed, any whore can blackmail any man.
As regards rape and its consequences in Sharia, the ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India is quite pertinent. According to the ‘Fatwa’ it was held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this appears to be the adoption of an old Judaistic law that makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour.
It would perhaps be quite pertinent to quote here what the wise man of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He says, “ If you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy”. One envies Mukhtaran Mai as she is lucky to have the best of the two, nay, rather three worlds and is so happy having been made so rich and honored because of her alleged rape setting new values for the sex culture in our society.
What prompted me to write this post was the award of Maadare Millat Gold Medal to Mai, the raped by Ms Nilofar Bakhtiar, as it seemed to me a blatant perfidy and insult to the name of Maadare Millat to associate her name with a shameless raped woman so as to present her as a role model for our women.
#7 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 12, 2005 4:19:43 am
arjun r u really this dumb or do you actually think there india has no problems of its own -- well in case you did think that here`s something to remind you to better first look in your own backyard -- jai ram jee kee
Raw deal for women journalists
The recently released `Status of Women Journalists in India` report, commissioned by the National Commission for Women presents a disturbing picture of women journalists. Malvika Kaul reports.
July 2004 (WFS) - ``When I joined the Times of India in the early 1980s, women did not figure in any organisational concerns. The chairs were too high, there were no rest rooms and the general attitude was - why is she here and not in Femina?`` says one of India`s best-known women journalists, Mrinal Pande. Almost 20 years later, although several Indian women have made a mark in hard news reporting, and there has been a phenomenal increase in the number of women journalists in the country, many women in the profession continue to get a raw deal.
The recently released `Status of Women Journalists in India` report, commissioned by the National Commission for Women (NCW), presents a disturbing picture of women journalists. Prepared by the Press Institute of India (PII), this report is the first such attempt in the country to look at the harsh reality - for women - in this often glamourised profession. PII`s National Study Group (NSG), consisting of media representatives from across the country, approached 3,500 women journalists working for 141 newspapers and publications (including several regional language dailies and magazines) for the preparation of this report. However, only 410 women responded.
The report says many women journalists (even from established newspapers) work as daily wage labour, without an appointment letter, signing a muster roll at the end of the month to get Rs 1,500-3000. ``In Madhya Pradesh (MP) and Chhattisgarh (where media giants like Dainik Bhaskar and Nai Duniya flourish), there is no woman journalist who has a permanent job. The `lucky` ones are those on contract for two-three years,`` says Sushmita Malaviya, who is part of the NSG. ``If a journalist has to be axed, it is most often a woman,`` she says. In fact, Malaviya noticed a pattern in MP, Chhattisgarh, Bihar and Jharkhand: 30+ women were the first to lose their jobs. Tactics for sacking women ranged from ``can you justify what you have been doing for the last six months?`` to ``the edition is not doing well and we need to downsize``.
In the conflict-ridden northeastern part of the country, only 35 women work as print journalists in the seven states. Only 35 per cent of these are full-time employees; 40 per cent say they have never been promoted. The `secret` contract system, in which none of the journalists know what the others are getting, is often used to play one journalist against the other.
Chayamuni Bhuyan talks about her experience with an established Assamese daily. In 2002, when Bhuyan returned to Guwahati from her US tour (she was chosen along with nine others in the country to cover the 9/11 anniversary functions), she was told she didn`t have a job. The newspaper fired her because she was ``absent`` from work. The management refused to consider all her US stories printed in the very newspaper and did not reimburse her fax bills. Bhuyan could do little: she had worked for three years in the newspaper without an appointment letter!
Women journalists across the country are rarely promoted; some go without a promotion for decades. Where women have been promoted, they have faced trouble and rebellion from male colleagues. A Trivandrum-based journalist says promotions don`t come to them because there`s no ``bar-room bonding`` for them as there is for their male colleagues. Another said: ``Women journalists are conscientious, diligent and people relate more easily to us. However, male bosses do not give credit for professionalism, instead they speak of women exploiting their gender.``
Child care facilities and maternity leave are still not a right in most media organisations. A senior woman journalist from Bihar said that when she returned from her maternity leave she was demoted. Another from MP said she was fired when she left to have a baby. Lekha, who works in a reputed national English magazine, says before her baby arrived, she was considered very ``responsible``. But after she became a mother, an impression was created that she was not ``reliable`` anymore.
While a majority of the women respondents said that having children did not affect their professional abilities, they were forced to slow down because of their organisations` bias against working mothers. This bias forces bright women into less paying, less prestigious and often less exciting jobs. Sadly, as Pande comments: ``Women`s productive years are also their reproductive years.``
Despite such odds, the report says, some women have survived and won.
R Poornima, editor of Udayavani, a Kannada daily from Bangalore, is the first woman editor in Kannada mainstream journalism. ``No one took us lightly because we were not merely assertive but exceptional in our work and efficient on the desk,`` she recalls. Loganayiki, editor of Kumudam Snehidhi, a Tamil periodical for women, started her career as a reporter 16 years ago. But even today, her male colleagues are reluctant to accept her as their boss. ``Now they know me better, but still the male ego is hurt; men always believe women are inferior.``
The report also dwells extensively on the divide between the English and regional language press: women journalists working for dailies in English get a better deal in terms of salaries, job security, facilities and choice of assignments. ``This differential treatment is apparent even when the same management brings out both the English and local language daily.``
However, something that is rampant in both the regional language and English press is sexual harassment. About 22 per cent of the 410 respondents said they had been sexually harassed at some point of time, but only 15 per cent made a formal complaint. A significant 40 per cent said they did not complain because the issue is not taken up seriously in their organisation or that they would be seen as over-reacting to a situation.
Dr Poornima Advani, Chairperson of NCW, said that despite a Supreme Court order, several media organisations have still not set up the committee required to look into cases of sexual harassment. The report claims that some women have learnt to ``manage`` sexual harassment instead of seeking redressal. Advani added that despite the small sample size, the report clearly spells out the challenges women journalists in India face, even today. The NCW says another report, on women in the electronic media, will soon follow. ⊕
Malvika Kaul
July 2004
Raw deal for women journalists
The recently released `Status of Women Journalists in India` report, commissioned by the National Commission for Women presents a disturbing picture of women journalists. Malvika Kaul reports.
July 2004 (WFS) - ``When I joined the Times of India in the early 1980s, women did not figure in any organisational concerns. The chairs were too high, there were no rest rooms and the general attitude was - why is she here and not in Femina?`` says one of India`s best-known women journalists, Mrinal Pande. Almost 20 years later, although several Indian women have made a mark in hard news reporting, and there has been a phenomenal increase in the number of women journalists in the country, many women in the profession continue to get a raw deal.
The recently released `Status of Women Journalists in India` report, commissioned by the National Commission for Women (NCW), presents a disturbing picture of women journalists. Prepared by the Press Institute of India (PII), this report is the first such attempt in the country to look at the harsh reality - for women - in this often glamourised profession. PII`s National Study Group (NSG), consisting of media representatives from across the country, approached 3,500 women journalists working for 141 newspapers and publications (including several regional language dailies and magazines) for the preparation of this report. However, only 410 women responded.
The report says many women journalists (even from established newspapers) work as daily wage labour, without an appointment letter, signing a muster roll at the end of the month to get Rs 1,500-3000. ``In Madhya Pradesh (MP) and Chhattisgarh (where media giants like Dainik Bhaskar and Nai Duniya flourish), there is no woman journalist who has a permanent job. The `lucky` ones are those on contract for two-three years,`` says Sushmita Malaviya, who is part of the NSG. ``If a journalist has to be axed, it is most often a woman,`` she says. In fact, Malaviya noticed a pattern in MP, Chhattisgarh, Bihar and Jharkhand: 30+ women were the first to lose their jobs. Tactics for sacking women ranged from ``can you justify what you have been doing for the last six months?`` to ``the edition is not doing well and we need to downsize``.
In the conflict-ridden northeastern part of the country, only 35 women work as print journalists in the seven states. Only 35 per cent of these are full-time employees; 40 per cent say they have never been promoted. The `secret` contract system, in which none of the journalists know what the others are getting, is often used to play one journalist against the other.
Chayamuni Bhuyan talks about her experience with an established Assamese daily. In 2002, when Bhuyan returned to Guwahati from her US tour (she was chosen along with nine others in the country to cover the 9/11 anniversary functions), she was told she didn`t have a job. The newspaper fired her because she was ``absent`` from work. The management refused to consider all her US stories printed in the very newspaper and did not reimburse her fax bills. Bhuyan could do little: she had worked for three years in the newspaper without an appointment letter!
Women journalists across the country are rarely promoted; some go without a promotion for decades. Where women have been promoted, they have faced trouble and rebellion from male colleagues. A Trivandrum-based journalist says promotions don`t come to them because there`s no ``bar-room bonding`` for them as there is for their male colleagues. Another said: ``Women journalists are conscientious, diligent and people relate more easily to us. However, male bosses do not give credit for professionalism, instead they speak of women exploiting their gender.``
Child care facilities and maternity leave are still not a right in most media organisations. A senior woman journalist from Bihar said that when she returned from her maternity leave she was demoted. Another from MP said she was fired when she left to have a baby. Lekha, who works in a reputed national English magazine, says before her baby arrived, she was considered very ``responsible``. But after she became a mother, an impression was created that she was not ``reliable`` anymore.
While a majority of the women respondents said that having children did not affect their professional abilities, they were forced to slow down because of their organisations` bias against working mothers. This bias forces bright women into less paying, less prestigious and often less exciting jobs. Sadly, as Pande comments: ``Women`s productive years are also their reproductive years.``
Despite such odds, the report says, some women have survived and won.
R Poornima, editor of Udayavani, a Kannada daily from Bangalore, is the first woman editor in Kannada mainstream journalism. ``No one took us lightly because we were not merely assertive but exceptional in our work and efficient on the desk,`` she recalls. Loganayiki, editor of Kumudam Snehidhi, a Tamil periodical for women, started her career as a reporter 16 years ago. But even today, her male colleagues are reluctant to accept her as their boss. ``Now they know me better, but still the male ego is hurt; men always believe women are inferior.``
The report also dwells extensively on the divide between the English and regional language press: women journalists working for dailies in English get a better deal in terms of salaries, job security, facilities and choice of assignments. ``This differential treatment is apparent even when the same management brings out both the English and local language daily.``
However, something that is rampant in both the regional language and English press is sexual harassment. About 22 per cent of the 410 respondents said they had been sexually harassed at some point of time, but only 15 per cent made a formal complaint. A significant 40 per cent said they did not complain because the issue is not taken up seriously in their organisation or that they would be seen as over-reacting to a situation.
Dr Poornima Advani, Chairperson of NCW, said that despite a Supreme Court order, several media organisations have still not set up the committee required to look into cases of sexual harassment. The report claims that some women have learnt to ``manage`` sexual harassment instead of seeking redressal. Advani added that despite the small sample size, the report clearly spells out the challenges women journalists in India face, even today. The NCW says another report, on women in the electronic media, will soon follow. ⊕
Malvika Kaul
July 2004
#8 Posted by harish_hyd on August 12, 2005 6:08:03 am
#7 by omar_r_quraishi
[well in case you did think that here`s something to remind you to better first look in your own backyard]
Sheesh!!!! If this is the level of understanding of the ``ass``istant editor (supposedly eductaed in..of all places..the US of A) of a newspaper founded by the Quaid-e-Azam, Allah save the land of the pure!!
The article you duly cut and pasted talks about the problems faced by women journalists at (mostly) their workplaces, not their freedom to operate. It DOES NOT say they are prevented/ harassed by government agencies (like the ISI had you running...Veeresh is going to taunt you for this for the rest of your life) for writing about whatever they choose to.
Does that make it clear Mullah Omar?
[well in case you did think that here`s something to remind you to better first look in your own backyard]
Sheesh!!!! If this is the level of understanding of the ``ass``istant editor (supposedly eductaed in..of all places..the US of A) of a newspaper founded by the Quaid-e-Azam, Allah save the land of the pure!!
The article you duly cut and pasted talks about the problems faced by women journalists at (mostly) their workplaces, not their freedom to operate. It DOES NOT say they are prevented/ harassed by government agencies (like the ISI had you running...Veeresh is going to taunt you for this for the rest of your life) for writing about whatever they choose to.
Does that make it clear Mullah Omar?
#9 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on August 12, 2005 6:52:02 am
welcome welcome harry potter jee -- wondering where the hell you were -- acha jee -- i hope the following will be to your satisfaction -- jee -- jai ram jee kee
closely parh leyna harish iyer
ANNUAL REPORT-2001-2002
Chapter I | Chapter II | Chapter III | Chapter IV | Chapter V | Chapter VI | Annexures
CHAPTER-II
Adjudications in Complaints Regarding
Threats to Press Freedom
Section 13 of the Press Council Act, 1978 sets out the basic objects of the Press Council of India. The Council under the provisions of the Act is required not only to maintain and improve upon the high standards of journalistic ethics, but also to keep under review any development likely to impede the free functioning of the press. The Council thus makes such observations in the context of the functioning of the press as it may think fit, in any of its decisions or reports, covering the conduct of any authority, including government. It is in exercise of this power that the Council considers and pronounces on complaints filed against the authorities. The adjudications detailed in this chapter cover the observations of the Council in fulfillment of its objects.
During the period under review the Council received 390 complaints, charging the governmental or other authorities with attempts at abridging the free functioning of the print media. Besides162 matters were pending consideration from the previous year. Of the 552 matters requiring the Council`s attention 35 were disposed of by way of adjudication, while 333 were dismissed at the preliminary stage for lack of grounds for inquiry, the said matters being outside the Councils` charter or having gone to a court of law. 184 matters were under process at the end of the period under review.
Adjudications on complaints under this chapter have been analysed graphically while detailed adjudications have been carried in the Council`s quarterly journals, viz. `The Press Council of India Review` in English and `Press Parishad Samiksha` in Hindi.
Harassment of Newsmen
For bringing to the fore the unsavory conduct of the authorities by way of articles/news in discharge of their professional duties, the journalists have to often bear the brunt. Manhandling, implication in criminal cases, etc. are some of the methods adopted by the authorities to compel pressmen to toe their line. Similarly, threats to life, property and family of the pressmen are also tactics adopted by vindictive militant outfits and anti-social elements to thwart the journalists in their fearless reporting and when they highlight their misdemeanors. The escalating number of cases of harassment of journalists manifests the failure of endeavors to check such violations of human rights.
The Council adjudicated a total of 18 such matters in the present year. Of these, the charges were found to be substantiated in two matters, while five stood dismissed on merits. In three others, the Council dropped inquiry when the respondents concerned made or assured adequate amends. Eight complaints were disposed of for non-prosecution or for the matter having become sub-judice or when no action by the Council was found to be warranted after hearing the parties. The chart that follows makes the position more clear.
Facilities to the Press
The fourth estate i.e. the Press requires some facilities from the authorities for the efficient discharge of its functions and this is where the authorities come to play an important role. Though these facilities cannot be claimed as a right, yet, in granting or distributing the same the authorities as custodians of public funds, have to ensure equality of treatment and fairness amongst similarly situated claimants. The facilities cover a wide range of subjects such as release of advertisements, grant of accreditation, and concession in the purchase of machinery and of other paraphernalia. Misuse of power in granting these facilities or a malafide denial with a view to pressurize the journalists to compromise their independence, is to be viewed with concern.
Complaints to the Council regarding such motivated denial of facilities have been many. However, of the 17 adjudications that fall under this category only four were upheld, while three were rejected on merits. In ten matters the authorities concerned redressed the grievance of the complaining parties. Graphics below clarify the position further.
and by the way , trust me, veeresh wont taunt about anything for the rest of my life --
p.s. of course the cut and paste (or should i say cut and link) master of chowk is none other than your comrade in arms, shri arjun jee -- i think you should save your praise for him -- and while you`re at it -- read this as well, wont you jee
Indian government cracks down on journalists
By K. Nesan
31 July 2002
Back to screen version | Send this link by email | Email the author
A series of incidents over the last two months involving the harassment of journalists all point to the fact that the Indian government of Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee is attempting to intimidate and muzzle its critics in the media. In themselves, the cases appear to be quite different. Taken together, however, they reveal the determination of the Hindu chauvinists in the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) to stamp out criticism and to impose their own views on the press.
One of the most recent cases involves the arrest of Kumar Badal, a reporter for the Indian web site Tehelka, on July 3. He has been accused of leopard poaching. Eight days prior to Badal’s arrest police ransacked the editorial offices and private homes of the web site’s editors. Tehelka has explained that its reporters were investigating the involvement of forest officers in illicit poaching operations—but to no avail.
The police action against Badal and Tehelka has nothing to do with the poaching of leopards. The web site has been a target of the Vajpayee government ever since it exposed the readiness of top politicians and military officers to accept large bribes as part of arms deals. Tehelka journalists spent eight months gaining the confidence of top officials by posing as middlemen for completely fictitious arms deals.
The story immediately threw the government into a crisis when it broke in March last year. The web site presented some of the 100 hours of videotape that its journalists had filmed with hidden cameras. BJP President Bangaru Laxman was forced to resign after a video showed him accepting 100,000 rupees. Defence Minister George Fernandes, Railway Minister Mamata Banerjee and Minister of State for External Affairs Ajit Kumar Panja were compelled to leave cabinet after they were implicated.
The government reacted to the scandal by lashing out at Tehelka, declaring that the exposé was “a financially motivated exercise and not a journalistic one.” It accused the web site of operating for foreign intelligence agencies and of being financed by the Middle East—in other words, in the communal language of the Hindu chauvinist BJP, of working for the Islamic “enemy”.
Vajpayee set up a one-man Commission, consisting of a retired Supreme Court judge, not to investigate the rampant corruption revealed by Tehelka but to look into the “motives and means employed in the operation”. No charges have been laid against any politician or general but the web site has been compelled to hire a team of 14 lawyers assisted by seven journalists to counter the government arguments. The purpose is obvious: to drive Tehelka out of business so as to ensure that the government never faces a similar political embarrassment. Over the past year, the number of Tehelka employees has shrunk from 105 to just 15.
Badal’s arrest follows that of Kashmiri journalist Iftikhar Geelani who has been held in remand since June 9 after being accused of possessing classified military documents. He was charged under the Officials Secrets Act introduced under British colonial rule in 1923 as one means of detaining Indians involved in the independence movement.
On July 24, a New Delhi court rejected Geelani’s appeal for a second opinion on the classification of documents seized from him and extended his judicial custody until July 31. The “highly sensitive” documents in question are freely available on the Internet. One is a booklet entitled “Denial of Freedom and Human Rights” published in 1996 by a Pakistani thinktank, which has been widely distributed among human rights organisations internationally. Aware that the case was becoming a debacle, the New Delhi police added a second charge, claiming pornographic material had been recovered from Geelani’s confiscated computer.
Geelani’s detention is part of intensifying political oppression in Kashmir. He was targeted one day after the arrest of his father-in-law Sayed Ali Shah Geelani, former chairman of Hurriyat; a legal party advocating Kashmiri separatism. Sayed Ali Shah Geelani was accused of “indulging in directing the people to boycott elections, and carrying out activities designed to develop hatred and disaffection amongst the masses against the Union of India.” The journalist, who has always disavowed the politics of his father-in-law, believes he has been arrested because of his family connection.
US journalist questioned
A third case involves the threatened expulsion of Alex Perry, a journalist with Time magazine. Perry was called in to the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) for questioning after he wrote a comment entitled “Asleep at the Wheel” in the June 17 issue of the magazine. He was interrogated about his possession of two passports—he holds dual citizenship—and his press accreditation in India was placed in doubt.
The real reasons, however, were obviously political. Perry’s article had questioned Vajpayee’s ability to handle the country’s nuclear arsenal in the present tense standoff with Pakistan. Even though the article began with an unflattering reflection on Vajpayee’s age, health and drinking habits, its central focus was on the prime minister’s more aggressive stance towards Pakistan and the growing influence of Hindu extremists in the Indian cabinet. The article, written just weeks before a cabinet reshuffle and the appointment of Hindu hardliner L.K. Advani as deputy prime minister, dwells on the infighting within the BJP leadership.
The government reacted to Perry’s article with undisguised hostility, saying that a “foreign hand” was promoting stories to discredit the prime minister. The BJP organised a public burning of the issue of Time in New Delhi. A local newspaper published Perry’s private address and telephone number leading to a series of death threats. He was forced to leave his home and hire armed bodyguards for security.
Perry has been covering South Asia for 12 years and was recently appointed chief of the New Delhi office of Time. Last year he was the first journalist to enter the northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif after the fall of the Taliban and to break the news of the massacre of Taliban fighters at the Sultan Raziya school and later at the nearby prison at Qala-i-Jangi.
The Vajpayee government obviously wants Perry out of the county not so much because of the domestic impact of his more critical articles— Time magazine’s circulation in India is comparatively small—but because of their impact of its international image. Authorities had already expressed their reservation in extending the accreditation of Perry and his colleague Tessa Laughton in December accusing them of taking an “anti-Indian” stand in the coverage of Kashmir. Perry came under fire again for writing an article entitled “India’s Beirut” in May on the communal violence in Gujarat in which the BJP was deeply implicated. Last week India’s state minister for home affairs Vidyasagar Rao defended the government’s treatment of Perry, saying “the issue is under examination”—an indication that he may still be forced to leave the country.
On July 11, the government virtually deported Nasir Sahdid, a Palestinian-born correspondent for the Al Jazeera network, by refusing to extend his press accreditation. The decision was in reaction to the network’s extensive coverage of the Gujarat riots which was beamed to the Middle East and parts of Europe. Al Jazeera showed footage of the torching of a mosque, the burning of the Koran and interviewed Muslim women who had been gang-raped by Hindu extremist thugs. Without a great deal of publicity, Indian officials pressured the network to change its correspondent under threat of shutting its operations in India altogether.
The tough line against Sahdid reflected the recent appointment of members of the Rashtrya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a Hindu extremist organisation allied to the BJP, to the Central Press Accreditation Committee (CPAC)—the official body which vets international journalists. The new CPAC representatives are demanding that accreditation not be extended to journalists like Perry who “hurt the nation’s sentiment”.
The appointments have drawn sharp criticism from journalists. Praful Bidwai, a New Delhi based writer, compared the government’s actions to the anti-democratic measures used by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to silence opponents during the notorious State of Emergency declared in 1975. “This is pernicious. Even during the Emergency, the government didn’t mess around with accreditation or the CPAC. Today, by packing it, it is undermining its integrity. It seems undeterred by strong protests from the Press Association, Indian Journalists’ Union, Working News Cameramen’s Association and All-India Newspaper Editors’ Conference,” he wrote.
The harassment and arrest of journalists is part of a broader attack on democratic rights in India. In a joint parliamentary session in March, the Vajpayee government pushed through the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), which provides for wide powers to detain suspects and ban organisations. Its stacking of the CPAC and the steps taken to intimidate media critics are a warning that it is out to undermine other basic democratic rights, including freedom of press and the right of free speech.
2 May 2005
IFJ expresses concern over harassment of senior journalist
The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ), the global organisation representing over 500,000 journalists worldwide, today condemned the harassment of senior journalist Anand Swaroop Verma by the Central Bureau of Investigation in India.
“Harassment of journalists for their truth telling represents a curtailment of press freedom that must be resisted,`` said IFJ President Christopher Warren.
According to information received by the IFJ, Anand Swaroop Verma, noted writer and editor of the magazine Samkaleen Teesari Dunia , is being harassed by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) in connection with the murder of Mahendra Singh, a Member of the Legislative Assembly from Jharkhand who was killed in broad daylight on 16 January 2005 while he was addressing a meeting in his constituency in Giridih.
The IFJ has expressed concern that the harassment of Mr Verma could be related to the fact that he is exceptionally active and vocal in India on questions of democracy in Nepal. Mr Verma has also been a member of the international team of observers that supervised the parliamentary elections in Nepal in 1994.
“Special investigating agencies have acquired a tendency to target and harass people known and associated with the victims in order to take away the focus from the ``crime`` and smoke- screen the real culprit,” said Warren, demanding the proper and impartial functioning of the prime investigating agencies.
In January, the CBI officials started visiting Verma, editor of the esteemed magazine Samkaleen Teesari Dunia , at his residence and enquiring about the phone-calls allegedly made to him from the mobile phone of the slain MLA after his murder. However, the CBI is refusing to disclose the duration and details of the said phone-calls.
Further, the investigating officers sent twice by the Superintendent of Police of CBI, Lucknow to Mr Verma’s residence told him that but for his journalistic status, they would have arrested him first and then carried out interrogation supposedly based on the ‘evidence’ against him in this case.
The IFJ has received information that the complaint filed by the widow of the slain MLA naming Deepak Verma the Superintendent of Police of Giridih and BJP MLA Ravindra Rai, for conspiring to kill her husband, is yet to be registered as a First Information Report.
The investigation process is disturbing, with a clear intention of implicating Mr Anand Swaroop Verma under the cover of investigation.
“We urge the CBI to refrain from harassing journalists, and carry out the investigation in a fair and impartial manner,” said Warren.
closely parh leyna harish iyer
ANNUAL REPORT-2001-2002
Chapter I | Chapter II | Chapter III | Chapter IV | Chapter V | Chapter VI | Annexures
CHAPTER-II
Adjudications in Complaints Regarding
Threats to Press Freedom
Section 13 of the Press Council Act, 1978 sets out the basic objects of the Press Council of India. The Council under the provisions of the Act is required not only to maintain and improve upon the high standards of journalistic ethics, but also to keep under review any development likely to impede the free functioning of the press. The Council thus makes such observations in the context of the functioning of the press as it may think fit, in any of its decisions or reports, covering the conduct of any authority, including government. It is in exercise of this power that the Council considers and pronounces on complaints filed against the authorities. The adjudications detailed in this chapter cover the observations of the Council in fulfillment of its objects.
During the period under review the Council received 390 complaints, charging the governmental or other authorities with attempts at abridging the free functioning of the print media. Besides162 matters were pending consideration from the previous year. Of the 552 matters requiring the Council`s attention 35 were disposed of by way of adjudication, while 333 were dismissed at the preliminary stage for lack of grounds for inquiry, the said matters being outside the Councils` charter or having gone to a court of law. 184 matters were under process at the end of the period under review.
Adjudications on complaints under this chapter have been analysed graphically while detailed adjudications have been carried in the Council`s quarterly journals, viz. `The Press Council of India Review` in English and `Press Parishad Samiksha` in Hindi.
Harassment of Newsmen
For bringing to the fore the unsavory conduct of the authorities by way of articles/news in discharge of their professional duties, the journalists have to often bear the brunt. Manhandling, implication in criminal cases, etc. are some of the methods adopted by the authorities to compel pressmen to toe their line. Similarly, threats to life, property and family of the pressmen are also tactics adopted by vindictive militant outfits and anti-social elements to thwart the journalists in their fearless reporting and when they highlight their misdemeanors. The escalating number of cases of harassment of journalists manifests the failure of endeavors to check such violations of human rights.
The Council adjudicated a total of 18 such matters in the present year. Of these, the charges were found to be substantiated in two matters, while five stood dismissed on merits. In three others, the Council dropped inquiry when the respondents concerned made or assured adequate amends. Eight complaints were disposed of for non-prosecution or for the matter having become sub-judice or when no action by the Council was found to be warranted after hearing the parties. The chart that follows makes the position more clear.
Facilities to the Press
The fourth estate i.e. the Press requires some facilities from the authorities for the efficient discharge of its functions and this is where the authorities come to play an important role. Though these facilities cannot be claimed as a right, yet, in granting or distributing the same the authorities as custodians of public funds, have to ensure equality of treatment and fairness amongst similarly situated claimants. The facilities cover a wide range of subjects such as release of advertisements, grant of accreditation, and concession in the purchase of machinery and of other paraphernalia. Misuse of power in granting these facilities or a malafide denial with a view to pressurize the journalists to compromise their independence, is to be viewed with concern.
Complaints to the Council regarding such motivated denial of facilities have been many. However, of the 17 adjudications that fall under this category only four were upheld, while three were rejected on merits. In ten matters the authorities concerned redressed the grievance of the complaining parties. Graphics below clarify the position further.
and by the way , trust me, veeresh wont taunt about anything for the rest of my life --
p.s. of course the cut and paste (or should i say cut and link) master of chowk is none other than your comrade in arms, shri arjun jee -- i think you should save your praise for him -- and while you`re at it -- read this as well, wont you jee
Indian government cracks down on journalists
By K. Nesan
31 July 2002
Back to screen version | Send this link by email | Email the author
A series of incidents over the last two months involving the harassment of journalists all point to the fact that the Indian government of Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee is attempting to intimidate and muzzle its critics in the media. In themselves, the cases appear to be quite different. Taken together, however, they reveal the determination of the Hindu chauvinists in the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) to stamp out criticism and to impose their own views on the press.
One of the most recent cases involves the arrest of Kumar Badal, a reporter for the Indian web site Tehelka, on July 3. He has been accused of leopard poaching. Eight days prior to Badal’s arrest police ransacked the editorial offices and private homes of the web site’s editors. Tehelka has explained that its reporters were investigating the involvement of forest officers in illicit poaching operations—but to no avail.
The police action against Badal and Tehelka has nothing to do with the poaching of leopards. The web site has been a target of the Vajpayee government ever since it exposed the readiness of top politicians and military officers to accept large bribes as part of arms deals. Tehelka journalists spent eight months gaining the confidence of top officials by posing as middlemen for completely fictitious arms deals.
The story immediately threw the government into a crisis when it broke in March last year. The web site presented some of the 100 hours of videotape that its journalists had filmed with hidden cameras. BJP President Bangaru Laxman was forced to resign after a video showed him accepting 100,000 rupees. Defence Minister George Fernandes, Railway Minister Mamata Banerjee and Minister of State for External Affairs Ajit Kumar Panja were compelled to leave cabinet after they were implicated.
The government reacted to the scandal by lashing out at Tehelka, declaring that the exposé was “a financially motivated exercise and not a journalistic one.” It accused the web site of operating for foreign intelligence agencies and of being financed by the Middle East—in other words, in the communal language of the Hindu chauvinist BJP, of working for the Islamic “enemy”.
Vajpayee set up a one-man Commission, consisting of a retired Supreme Court judge, not to investigate the rampant corruption revealed by Tehelka but to look into the “motives and means employed in the operation”. No charges have been laid against any politician or general but the web site has been compelled to hire a team of 14 lawyers assisted by seven journalists to counter the government arguments. The purpose is obvious: to drive Tehelka out of business so as to ensure that the government never faces a similar political embarrassment. Over the past year, the number of Tehelka employees has shrunk from 105 to just 15.
Badal’s arrest follows that of Kashmiri journalist Iftikhar Geelani who has been held in remand since June 9 after being accused of possessing classified military documents. He was charged under the Officials Secrets Act introduced under British colonial rule in 1923 as one means of detaining Indians involved in the independence movement.
On July 24, a New Delhi court rejected Geelani’s appeal for a second opinion on the classification of documents seized from him and extended his judicial custody until July 31. The “highly sensitive” documents in question are freely available on the Internet. One is a booklet entitled “Denial of Freedom and Human Rights” published in 1996 by a Pakistani thinktank, which has been widely distributed among human rights organisations internationally. Aware that the case was becoming a debacle, the New Delhi police added a second charge, claiming pornographic material had been recovered from Geelani’s confiscated computer.
Geelani’s detention is part of intensifying political oppression in Kashmir. He was targeted one day after the arrest of his father-in-law Sayed Ali Shah Geelani, former chairman of Hurriyat; a legal party advocating Kashmiri separatism. Sayed Ali Shah Geelani was accused of “indulging in directing the people to boycott elections, and carrying out activities designed to develop hatred and disaffection amongst the masses against the Union of India.” The journalist, who has always disavowed the politics of his father-in-law, believes he has been arrested because of his family connection.
US journalist questioned
A third case involves the threatened expulsion of Alex Perry, a journalist with Time magazine. Perry was called in to the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) for questioning after he wrote a comment entitled “Asleep at the Wheel” in the June 17 issue of the magazine. He was interrogated about his possession of two passports—he holds dual citizenship—and his press accreditation in India was placed in doubt.
The real reasons, however, were obviously political. Perry’s article had questioned Vajpayee’s ability to handle the country’s nuclear arsenal in the present tense standoff with Pakistan. Even though the article began with an unflattering reflection on Vajpayee’s age, health and drinking habits, its central focus was on the prime minister’s more aggressive stance towards Pakistan and the growing influence of Hindu extremists in the Indian cabinet. The article, written just weeks before a cabinet reshuffle and the appointment of Hindu hardliner L.K. Advani as deputy prime minister, dwells on the infighting within the BJP leadership.
The government reacted to Perry’s article with undisguised hostility, saying that a “foreign hand” was promoting stories to discredit the prime minister. The BJP organised a public burning of the issue of Time in New Delhi. A local newspaper published Perry’s private address and telephone number leading to a series of death threats. He was forced to leave his home and hire armed bodyguards for security.
Perry has been covering South Asia for 12 years and was recently appointed chief of the New Delhi office of Time. Last year he was the first journalist to enter the northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif after the fall of the Taliban and to break the news of the massacre of Taliban fighters at the Sultan Raziya school and later at the nearby prison at Qala-i-Jangi.
The Vajpayee government obviously wants Perry out of the county not so much because of the domestic impact of his more critical articles— Time magazine’s circulation in India is comparatively small—but because of their impact of its international image. Authorities had already expressed their reservation in extending the accreditation of Perry and his colleague Tessa Laughton in December accusing them of taking an “anti-Indian” stand in the coverage of Kashmir. Perry came under fire again for writing an article entitled “India’s Beirut” in May on the communal violence in Gujarat in which the BJP was deeply implicated. Last week India’s state minister for home affairs Vidyasagar Rao defended the government’s treatment of Perry, saying “the issue is under examination”—an indication that he may still be forced to leave the country.
On July 11, the government virtually deported Nasir Sahdid, a Palestinian-born correspondent for the Al Jazeera network, by refusing to extend his press accreditation. The decision was in reaction to the network’s extensive coverage of the Gujarat riots which was beamed to the Middle East and parts of Europe. Al Jazeera showed footage of the torching of a mosque, the burning of the Koran and interviewed Muslim women who had been gang-raped by Hindu extremist thugs. Without a great deal of publicity, Indian officials pressured the network to change its correspondent under threat of shutting its operations in India altogether.
The tough line against Sahdid reflected the recent appointment of members of the Rashtrya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a Hindu extremist organisation allied to the BJP, to the Central Press Accreditation Committee (CPAC)—the official body which vets international journalists. The new CPAC representatives are demanding that accreditation not be extended to journalists like Perry who “hurt the nation’s sentiment”.
The appointments have drawn sharp criticism from journalists. Praful Bidwai, a New Delhi based writer, compared the government’s actions to the anti-democratic measures used by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to silence opponents during the notorious State of Emergency declared in 1975. “This is pernicious. Even during the Emergency, the government didn’t mess around with accreditation or the CPAC. Today, by packing it, it is undermining its integrity. It seems undeterred by strong protests from the Press Association, Indian Journalists’ Union, Working News Cameramen’s Association and All-India Newspaper Editors’ Conference,” he wrote.
The harassment and arrest of journalists is part of a broader attack on democratic rights in India. In a joint parliamentary session in March, the Vajpayee government pushed through the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), which provides for wide powers to detain suspects and ban organisations. Its stacking of the CPAC and the steps taken to intimidate media critics are a warning that it is out to undermine other basic democratic rights, including freedom of press and the right of free speech.
2 May 2005
IFJ expresses concern over harassment of senior journalist
The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ), the global organisation representing over 500,000 journalists worldwide, today condemned the harassment of senior journalist Anand Swaroop Verma by the Central Bureau of Investigation in India.
“Harassment of journalists for their truth telling represents a curtailment of press freedom that must be resisted,`` said IFJ President Christopher Warren.
According to information received by the IFJ, Anand Swaroop Verma, noted writer and editor of the magazine Samkaleen Teesari Dunia , is being harassed by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) in connection with the murder of Mahendra Singh, a Member of the Legislative Assembly from Jharkhand who was killed in broad daylight on 16 January 2005 while he was addressing a meeting in his constituency in Giridih.
The IFJ has expressed concern that the harassment of Mr Verma could be related to the fact that he is exceptionally active and vocal in India on questions of democracy in Nepal. Mr Verma has also been a member of the international team of observers that supervised the parliamentary elections in Nepal in 1994.
“Special investigating agencies have acquired a tendency to target and harass people known and associated with the victims in order to take away the focus from the ``crime`` and smoke- screen the real culprit,” said Warren, demanding the proper and impartial functioning of the prime investigating agencies.
In January, the CBI officials started visiting Verma, editor of the esteemed magazine Samkaleen Teesari Dunia , at his residence and enquiring about the phone-calls allegedly made to him from the mobile phone of the slain MLA after his murder. However, the CBI is refusing to disclose the duration and details of the said phone-calls.
Further, the investigating officers sent twice by the Superintendent of Police of CBI, Lucknow to Mr Verma’s residence told him that but for his journalistic status, they would have arrested him first and then carried out interrogation supposedly based on the ‘evidence’ against him in this case.
The IFJ has received information that the complaint filed by the widow of the slain MLA naming Deepak Verma the Superintendent of Police of Giridih and BJP MLA Ravindra Rai, for conspiring to kill her husband, is yet to be registered as a First Information Report.
The investigation process is disturbing, with a clear intention of implicating Mr Anand Swaroop Verma under the cover of investigation.
“We urge the CBI to refrain from harassing journalists, and carry out the investigation in a fair and impartial manner,” said Warren.
#10 Posted by saadanis on August 12, 2005 7:23:51 am
Re: # 6
Dear Mr Teshah,
I would like to bring to your notice the fact that my article deals not with the dynamics of the Mukhtaran Mai episode, but merely the government`s decision to restrict her travel in the name of national interest.
However, since you have brought up the issue anyway, let me clear some misconceptions that you seem to have regarding the case.
1. The alleged `dishonour` of the girl of the Mastoi tribe by Mai`s brother was reportedly a mere tryst.
2. Regardless of the penchayat`s ruling and the numerous versions thereof, the simple fact is that the jirga system is not a legitimate judicial system in Pakistan, and has no authority whatsoever to play judge and executioner over the lives of the citizens of the State. This in itself is a blatant violation, and a slap in the face for jingoists who still view this case as ``blown out of proportion``.
3. In re your assertion about the fatwa on rape and the subsequent reference to the Imrana Illahi issue in Muzaffarnagar, India in June 2005; neither the Darul Uloom Deoband nor the All India Muslim Personal Law Board ever made any such official declarations. This verdict was handed down by a tribal penchayat (again a parallel, illegal judicial structure) comprising quasi-illiterates, and has no weight attached to it. It was merely a case of bad reporting on part of the Indian press.
While one must admit that the present is a difficult time for Muslims the world over, it is heartrending to see educated men turn a blind eye to injustice for the preservation of infantile illusions.
Dear Mr Teshah,
I would like to bring to your notice the fact that my article deals not with the dynamics of the Mukhtaran Mai episode, but merely the government`s decision to restrict her travel in the name of national interest.
However, since you have brought up the issue anyway, let me clear some misconceptions that you seem to have regarding the case.
1. The alleged `dishonour` of the girl of the Mastoi tribe by Mai`s brother was reportedly a mere tryst.
2. Regardless of the penchayat`s ruling and the numerous versions thereof, the simple fact is that the jirga system is not a legitimate judicial system in Pakistan, and has no authority whatsoever to play judge and executioner over the lives of the citizens of the State. This in itself is a blatant violation, and a slap in the face for jingoists who still view this case as ``blown out of proportion``.
3. In re your assertion about the fatwa on rape and the subsequent reference to the Imrana Illahi issue in Muzaffarnagar, India in June 2005; neither the Darul Uloom Deoband nor the All India Muslim Personal Law Board ever made any such official declarations. This verdict was handed down by a tribal penchayat (again a parallel, illegal judicial structure) comprising quasi-illiterates, and has no weight attached to it. It was merely a case of bad reporting on part of the Indian press.
While one must admit that the present is a difficult time for Muslims the world over, it is heartrending to see educated men turn a blind eye to injustice for the preservation of infantile illusions.
#11 Posted by BeeJay on August 12, 2005 8:35:27 am
The article makes the usual point that the General is a talker – not a doer (or is a doer of the wrong things), so what’s new! Most politicians are the same way – except this one can not be kicked out – except by means (force) that brought him in – means widely accepted in that country – for virtually all foul purposes – starting with the subjugation of women!
The author’s style can benefit if he sticks to facts and figures and not let the tone of bitterness distract the reader. Do such articles make a difference? Well, it`s catharsis of sorts!
[If the State is to make the progress that the current regime claims that it has made, its policies need to be rid of contradictions.]
Government Policy No. (1) – Stay in power, at all costs.
Government Policies No. (2) and plus – who cares!
#12 Posted by thorn_bird on August 12, 2005 3:02:46 pm
Is it only the General or people like him responsible for the conditions prevailing in Pakistan or India or any other country? arent we equally responsible for it? we comprise of the masses but do we bother to actually raise a voice of protest against the injustices committed? there are so many thigns we see and do that is wrong and ILLEGAL but since it supports our own selfish purposes we turn deaf, dumb and blind! is it not so? why blame the OTHER educated people, what are we the so called ``educated people``doing to change even 0.01% of da condition prevelant. All we do is juggling a few words hither and thither and display our writing skills.!!
@ saad anis z
``While one must admit that the present is a difficult time for Muslims the world over``
Well firstly it is a difficult time for everyone n not muslims alone..
Secondly, i would like to point out that IMRANA ILAHI n MUKHTARAN MAI r the victims of fellow muslim men. And we would just say `` XYZ isnt responsible SHE must have insited him`` isnt it?
@ Mr teshah
Moreover people like our dear MR. TESHAH would say its ok to get raped but protesting agaisnt it is a DISHONOURING ACT! Just because a higher clan woamn was ``dishonoured`` by her brother so one can rape her(muktaran mai). Well Mr teshah dont you think the brother should have been punished and not her firstly. Secondly, if you were her brother and she was brought before you and the entire society and insulted similarly and questioning the validity of the rape and how right was is on behalf of the society to accent to it would you have still said tha same thing? Mr. Teshah why is it that we have a different opinion for others and a different opinion for ourselves? before she being a LOW CASTE woman she is a human being. Just because she comes from the lower strata of the society does it empower anyone to say ``its ok for her being raped``! Even a prostitute has the right to say no! she is selling her body because her circumstances have forced her to do so but this doesnot mean that she can be raped! Tell me if we dont have witnesses does it mean dat the crime hasnt been committed? suppose your daughter or sister was raped(god forbid) when no one was around but she recognises the B******D so would you still accept the verdict? its very easy to comment on others but very difficult to stick to them when we are placed in those situations.
@ saad anis z
``While one must admit that the present is a difficult time for Muslims the world over``
Well firstly it is a difficult time for everyone n not muslims alone..
Secondly, i would like to point out that IMRANA ILAHI n MUKHTARAN MAI r the victims of fellow muslim men. And we would just say `` XYZ isnt responsible SHE must have insited him`` isnt it?
@ Mr teshah
Moreover people like our dear MR. TESHAH would say its ok to get raped but protesting agaisnt it is a DISHONOURING ACT! Just because a higher clan woamn was ``dishonoured`` by her brother so one can rape her(muktaran mai). Well Mr teshah dont you think the brother should have been punished and not her firstly. Secondly, if you were her brother and she was brought before you and the entire society and insulted similarly and questioning the validity of the rape and how right was is on behalf of the society to accent to it would you have still said tha same thing? Mr. Teshah why is it that we have a different opinion for others and a different opinion for ourselves? before she being a LOW CASTE woman she is a human being. Just because she comes from the lower strata of the society does it empower anyone to say ``its ok for her being raped``! Even a prostitute has the right to say no! she is selling her body because her circumstances have forced her to do so but this doesnot mean that she can be raped! Tell me if we dont have witnesses does it mean dat the crime hasnt been committed? suppose your daughter or sister was raped(god forbid) when no one was around but she recognises the B******D so would you still accept the verdict? its very easy to comment on others but very difficult to stick to them when we are placed in those situations.
#13 Posted by premwalla on August 13, 2005 3:47:27 pm
August 13, 2005
...and now to teach the eunuch a lesson in objectivity
Khamkhwa {``this is what started it all...please don`t be confused with hiro who is salim who is also premwala...who is also a thousand other nicks...;) ``}
Again you lie and are blatantly engaged in yellow journalism. This is NOT what started it all. What started this particularly cycle of profanity was your action in causing my friends` and my messages and threads to be arbitrarily deleted. Because you and your cohorts, almost all Paki liberals assisted by one gay Mahratti from Pune, cannot debate issues successfully, you resort to deleting responses and preseting one-sided explanations. I do not blame you, of course, because this is typically Paki behavior. Let me explain and also try to return to the topic in hand:
The British citizens of Paki descent who bombed the London transportation system were not at all influenced by Pakis.
Kashmir belongs to Pakis because a majority of its people are Moose Limbs.
India started all the wars against Pakiland and Pakis won every one of them.
The Bengalis were committing horrible massacres in East Pakistan and they are traitors.
The US is wrong in being concerned about Pakis` leading role in planning and executing terrorism throughout the world.
Pakis who don`t agree with the Paki majority need to be muzzled and eliminated as traitors.
Ahmedis, Shias, Christians, Jews, Hindus are all kafirs and want to do Moose Limbs in.
Salim is NOT a Rajput, NOT a Turk, NOT Irani, NOT Shia, NOT educated, and definitely NOT a Paki. He must be something, but he is defintely not a Moose Limb and a Paki, otherwise he would not be speaking his mind and pointing out the truth.
Khamkhwa, you may have the power to regulate what is posted in threads and messages, but you CANNOT control what I say or do in real life. I am very disappointed by the so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Paki hypocrisy and I plan to expose it whereever and whenever I have the opportunity.
You are not so bright, are you?
Salim
August 13, 2005
A far far more stupid person than we understood him to be.
Mr. Temporal,
Please do not resort to insulting me with your abuse via alternate means by addressing Mr. Hamidm2 and Mr. Tahmed as if you were educating them about the imminent amoral atmosphere on Chowk.
Sir, and I use the word hesitatingly, you are a fraud, a hypocrite, and a charlatan. You accuse me of using profanity and have not offered a single word about the vulgarity used by Saminasha, Scout, Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, and Atif. You have been an amused spectator when Scout has fantasized about ``penises rotting and falling off.`` You were peculiarly silent when Saminasha referred to my young, religious wife as a ``Turkish whore.`` You were definitely one-sided in your deafening silence about the abuse Atif has been hurling at me, Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Montag, Mr. Arjun, and Mr. Delhiwalla. You have even encouraged the feces-mouthed Succubus in her abusive rage against my female relatives. Very recently I offered proof of dirty, filthy, and intolerable language posted by several so-called ``females`` such as Succubus, Scout, Saminasha, and Mizz Nadia. ``Women,`` who want to be treated with the respect they demand as the ``fairer`` sex, need to refrain from using unlady-like language with which they are often caught with their pants down. And then ``men,`` such as Atif aka Dr. Israr Ahmed and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, have been using abusive, horrible, and dirty language against other men and their female relatives. But belonging to the Brahmin cast of Chowk, they and their ``she-male`` pom pom girls are immune from being muzzled and being banned.
So, Mr. Hypocrite, now do you understand why some of us have to resort to multiple nics? By banning people with whom you and your cohorts disagree, by deleting their polite and reasonable messages, and by erasing their threads, you yourselves are forcing us to resort to multiple nics and evasive measures.
Mr. Temporal, you have often complained about the draconian measures employed by the military dictators in Pakiland. I must say I am pleased to note your plight and your consternation at being muzzled, being banned, and being arbitrarily barred from decision making in your wretched country. The Lahore Marathon, the Mukhtar Mai tragedy, the Dr. Shazia injustice are all testatments to your utter failure in being credible. When you practice intolerance yourself, it is natural that others will do unto you what you are doing to others. You deserve every Yahya, every Zia, every Musharraf that is imposed on your miserable lives.
Mr. Temporal, YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER, and please don`t ever compare yourself to Mr. Tahmed. I know Mr. Tahmed and believe me, Mr. Temporal, Sir, you are no Mr. Tahmed. He is brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical, and most of all not at all a hypocrite like you.
By the way, I do not care what you think. Go ahead and label me as you wish. You are so perceptive that you have determined or negated my ethnic, religious, national, and residential identitiies, or lack of them. You know, you are even more stupid than I gave you credit for.
Salim
The rejected ``lover`` keeps coming back for more
Succubus,
I wanted to ignore you, but you insist on continuing your macabre act of playing a victim. You have insulted in very vivid and horrible profanity me and my family, including my mother and my sister-in-law. Even now you resort to using words such as ``jackass.`` I assure you that you do not have to interact with me for any reason. You started this series of insidious remarks against me and I just wanted to give you an ample response. The so-called ``40 thousand`` identities are due to the prevailing atmosphere of biased, one-sided, and definitely Paki-style of censorship found on Chowk, where they muzzle opinion they don`t like and ban interactor with whom they disagree. I would have been content with my own initial nic.
Please get over me. I am not interested in you and do not want to get into another slugfest with the likes of you. Get on with your life, I have.
Thanks,
Salim
Use of abusive language by Pakis - a she-male no doubt
Another example of ``polite`` interaction by Pakis, this time a ``female`` no doubt. Notice the use of expletives in almost every sentence. She can`t put together sixteen words without using fu ck, sh it, or ass:
{``#8 by Mizz_Nadia on August 12, 2005 4:55pm PT
Injuns getting proud of a industry that sucks money outta the public...Thats fucked up....and hilarious...
Wouldnt it b better if they gave half of what they earn to the Indian public and clean up the cow shitted streets ...and put sum clothes on those nasty ass women with sagging bodies....
Better put money towards having the ganges purified what with all that shit floatin in it....grosss.... :}
And these are the literate she-males of Pakiland, the Land of the Pure. Notice the free use of ``invented`` verbs and adjectives.
Salim
August 13, 2005
Circumventing the malicious deletion of my viewpoint by Khamkhwa and Chowk Staff
Now that Khamkhwa and his Chowk Staff cohorts are deleting my responses, I am compelled to repeat them here. Please read and accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this one-sided, biased, and repressive Paki website.
Mr. Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Hoshiyaar Hole, You Jhoot Bole.
******************************************************
Is this what you meant by polite interaction when you were pontificating about Salim and Mr. Tahmed in this forum earlier?
{``#5 by JagdeeshGodbole on August 13, 2005 6:29am PT
delhiwala why dont you take your history and shove it up your ass``}
You Jagdeesh are a hypocrite.
Salim
****************************************
Hypocrisy
Is this what Succubus, Atif, Scout, Saminasha, and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidble mean by polite interactin and refrain from abusive language?
#2 by atif2 on August 12, 2005 5:30am PT
arjun madarchod idiotic smelly injun - instead of gloating over these human rights abuses, you should be condemning them.
***********************************************
Advice to Ms Succubus
In the case of Ms. Succubus, I think it is simply a case of ``sour grapes.``
Succu,
I am happily married. Please find someone else and hopefully you will be able to get rid of some of your own personal rage. Who knows you could possibly channel all this negative energy into something, let`s say, productive and fun.
Sounds like a case of ``sour`` grapes to me.
Response to Nonsense from Succubus
Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that, just like your sense of humor, your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.
By the way, you said ``As you have done earlier, please do not take this personal.`` The correct word that you should have used here is ``personally`` and not ``personal.``
Please don`t take this advice personally. In my desire to enlighten Pakis and encourage them to use proper English, I invariably end up rectifying their use of this foreign language. I can`t believe that the standards of academic attainment have sunk to this low level in the UAE. And they are about to give you a degree?
Salim
******************************************
Thank you, my friends
Mr. Tahmed, Monty, and Jang,
Thank you for your kind words and attempt to respond to Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Atif, KK, and the other members of the Scout/Saminasha gang. While they constantly whine about my verbal ``abuse`` hurled at them, they conveniently neglect to confess to their own substantially vulgar attacks on me, my wife, my sister-in-law, and my mother. Just recently, Saminasha posted, right here on FP, a remark referring to my wife as a ``Turkish whore.``
Yes, I do respond and as I have often said with ten times the effect. I can`t help it, that`s the American way and I AM an American. Usually, I am quite a gentle, polite, and compassionate interactor, whose only desire is to laugh and bring laughter to others. But once this gang of Scout, Saminasha and their cohorts resorts to lewd and vulgar assaults on me and my family, I am entitled to teach them a lesson in ``French`` - and that is exactly what they receive.
I apologize to Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Dilliwalla, Mr. Jang, Ms Zeena, Mr. Montag, and other fine friends for any inconvenience that may have come their way because of their friendship with me.
Salim
******************************************************
Response to Nonsense from Succubus
#165, Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that just like your sense of humor your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.
Salim :)
...and now to teach the eunuch a lesson in objectivity
Khamkhwa {``this is what started it all...please don`t be confused with hiro who is salim who is also premwala...who is also a thousand other nicks...;) ``}
Again you lie and are blatantly engaged in yellow journalism. This is NOT what started it all. What started this particularly cycle of profanity was your action in causing my friends` and my messages and threads to be arbitrarily deleted. Because you and your cohorts, almost all Paki liberals assisted by one gay Mahratti from Pune, cannot debate issues successfully, you resort to deleting responses and preseting one-sided explanations. I do not blame you, of course, because this is typically Paki behavior. Let me explain and also try to return to the topic in hand:
The British citizens of Paki descent who bombed the London transportation system were not at all influenced by Pakis.
Kashmir belongs to Pakis because a majority of its people are Moose Limbs.
India started all the wars against Pakiland and Pakis won every one of them.
The Bengalis were committing horrible massacres in East Pakistan and they are traitors.
The US is wrong in being concerned about Pakis` leading role in planning and executing terrorism throughout the world.
Pakis who don`t agree with the Paki majority need to be muzzled and eliminated as traitors.
Ahmedis, Shias, Christians, Jews, Hindus are all kafirs and want to do Moose Limbs in.
Salim is NOT a Rajput, NOT a Turk, NOT Irani, NOT Shia, NOT educated, and definitely NOT a Paki. He must be something, but he is defintely not a Moose Limb and a Paki, otherwise he would not be speaking his mind and pointing out the truth.
Khamkhwa, you may have the power to regulate what is posted in threads and messages, but you CANNOT control what I say or do in real life. I am very disappointed by the so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Paki hypocrisy and I plan to expose it whereever and whenever I have the opportunity.
You are not so bright, are you?
Salim
August 13, 2005
A far far more stupid person than we understood him to be.
Mr. Temporal,
Please do not resort to insulting me with your abuse via alternate means by addressing Mr. Hamidm2 and Mr. Tahmed as if you were educating them about the imminent amoral atmosphere on Chowk.
Sir, and I use the word hesitatingly, you are a fraud, a hypocrite, and a charlatan. You accuse me of using profanity and have not offered a single word about the vulgarity used by Saminasha, Scout, Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, and Atif. You have been an amused spectator when Scout has fantasized about ``penises rotting and falling off.`` You were peculiarly silent when Saminasha referred to my young, religious wife as a ``Turkish whore.`` You were definitely one-sided in your deafening silence about the abuse Atif has been hurling at me, Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Montag, Mr. Arjun, and Mr. Delhiwalla. You have even encouraged the feces-mouthed Succubus in her abusive rage against my female relatives. Very recently I offered proof of dirty, filthy, and intolerable language posted by several so-called ``females`` such as Succubus, Scout, Saminasha, and Mizz Nadia. ``Women,`` who want to be treated with the respect they demand as the ``fairer`` sex, need to refrain from using unlady-like language with which they are often caught with their pants down. And then ``men,`` such as Atif aka Dr. Israr Ahmed and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godbole aka JohnGalt, have been using abusive, horrible, and dirty language against other men and their female relatives. But belonging to the Brahmin cast of Chowk, they and their ``she-male`` pom pom girls are immune from being muzzled and being banned.
So, Mr. Hypocrite, now do you understand why some of us have to resort to multiple nics? By banning people with whom you and your cohorts disagree, by deleting their polite and reasonable messages, and by erasing their threads, you yourselves are forcing us to resort to multiple nics and evasive measures.
Mr. Temporal, you have often complained about the draconian measures employed by the military dictators in Pakiland. I must say I am pleased to note your plight and your consternation at being muzzled, being banned, and being arbitrarily barred from decision making in your wretched country. The Lahore Marathon, the Mukhtar Mai tragedy, the Dr. Shazia injustice are all testatments to your utter failure in being credible. When you practice intolerance yourself, it is natural that others will do unto you what you are doing to others. You deserve every Yahya, every Zia, every Musharraf that is imposed on your miserable lives.
Mr. Temporal, YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER, and please don`t ever compare yourself to Mr. Tahmed. I know Mr. Tahmed and believe me, Mr. Temporal, Sir, you are no Mr. Tahmed. He is brilliant, honest, just, compassionate, friendly, logical, and most of all not at all a hypocrite like you.
By the way, I do not care what you think. Go ahead and label me as you wish. You are so perceptive that you have determined or negated my ethnic, religious, national, and residential identitiies, or lack of them. You know, you are even more stupid than I gave you credit for.
Salim
The rejected ``lover`` keeps coming back for more
Succubus,
I wanted to ignore you, but you insist on continuing your macabre act of playing a victim. You have insulted in very vivid and horrible profanity me and my family, including my mother and my sister-in-law. Even now you resort to using words such as ``jackass.`` I assure you that you do not have to interact with me for any reason. You started this series of insidious remarks against me and I just wanted to give you an ample response. The so-called ``40 thousand`` identities are due to the prevailing atmosphere of biased, one-sided, and definitely Paki-style of censorship found on Chowk, where they muzzle opinion they don`t like and ban interactor with whom they disagree. I would have been content with my own initial nic.
Please get over me. I am not interested in you and do not want to get into another slugfest with the likes of you. Get on with your life, I have.
Thanks,
Salim
Use of abusive language by Pakis - a she-male no doubt
Another example of ``polite`` interaction by Pakis, this time a ``female`` no doubt. Notice the use of expletives in almost every sentence. She can`t put together sixteen words without using fu ck, sh it, or ass:
{``#8 by Mizz_Nadia on August 12, 2005 4:55pm PT
Injuns getting proud of a industry that sucks money outta the public...Thats fucked up....and hilarious...
Wouldnt it b better if they gave half of what they earn to the Indian public and clean up the cow shitted streets ...and put sum clothes on those nasty ass women with sagging bodies....
Better put money towards having the ganges purified what with all that shit floatin in it....grosss.... :}
And these are the literate she-males of Pakiland, the Land of the Pure. Notice the free use of ``invented`` verbs and adjectives.
Salim
August 13, 2005
Circumventing the malicious deletion of my viewpoint by Khamkhwa and Chowk Staff
Now that Khamkhwa and his Chowk Staff cohorts are deleting my responses, I am compelled to repeat them here. Please read and accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused by this one-sided, biased, and repressive Paki website.
Mr. Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Hoshiyaar Hole, You Jhoot Bole.
******************************************************
Is this what you meant by polite interaction when you were pontificating about Salim and Mr. Tahmed in this forum earlier?
{``#5 by JagdeeshGodbole on August 13, 2005 6:29am PT
delhiwala why dont you take your history and shove it up your ass``}
You Jagdeesh are a hypocrite.
Salim
****************************************
Hypocrisy
Is this what Succubus, Atif, Scout, Saminasha, and Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidble mean by polite interactin and refrain from abusive language?
#2 by atif2 on August 12, 2005 5:30am PT
arjun madarchod idiotic smelly injun - instead of gloating over these human rights abuses, you should be condemning them.
***********************************************
Advice to Ms Succubus
In the case of Ms. Succubus, I think it is simply a case of ``sour grapes.``
Succu,
I am happily married. Please find someone else and hopefully you will be able to get rid of some of your own personal rage. Who knows you could possibly channel all this negative energy into something, let`s say, productive and fun.
Sounds like a case of ``sour`` grapes to me.
Response to Nonsense from Succubus
Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that, just like your sense of humor, your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.
By the way, you said ``As you have done earlier, please do not take this personal.`` The correct word that you should have used here is ``personally`` and not ``personal.``
Please don`t take this advice personally. In my desire to enlighten Pakis and encourage them to use proper English, I invariably end up rectifying their use of this foreign language. I can`t believe that the standards of academic attainment have sunk to this low level in the UAE. And they are about to give you a degree?
Salim
******************************************
Thank you, my friends
Mr. Tahmed, Monty, and Jang,
Thank you for your kind words and attempt to respond to Succubus, Jagdeesh (Tytler) Godforbidbole, Atif, KK, and the other members of the Scout/Saminasha gang. While they constantly whine about my verbal ``abuse`` hurled at them, they conveniently neglect to confess to their own substantially vulgar attacks on me, my wife, my sister-in-law, and my mother. Just recently, Saminasha posted, right here on FP, a remark referring to my wife as a ``Turkish whore.``
Yes, I do respond and as I have often said with ten times the effect. I can`t help it, that`s the American way and I AM an American. Usually, I am quite a gentle, polite, and compassionate interactor, whose only desire is to laugh and bring laughter to others. But once this gang of Scout, Saminasha and their cohorts resorts to lewd and vulgar assaults on me and my family, I am entitled to teach them a lesson in ``French`` - and that is exactly what they receive.
I apologize to Mr. Tahmed, Mr. Dilliwalla, Mr. Jang, Ms Zeena, Mr. Montag, and other fine friends for any inconvenience that may have come their way because of their friendship with me.
Salim
******************************************************
Response to Nonsense from Succubus
#165, Succubus,
I have been deliberately ignoring you and your ridiculous nonsense for several months now. I have not said a thing to you or about you, despite your several attempts to malign Mr. Tahmed and me. Suffice it to say that just like your sense of humor your sense of fairplay is also biased.
Please refrain from accusing me of profanity when you yourself have uttered your vulgarity at my female relatives in the worst possible language. I never thought that, with the exception of Scout and Saminasha, any Paki girl could use such colorful profanity. You are such a turn off.
If you and your cohorts cannot confront Mr. Tahmed with logic and polite discussion, then please don`t resort to using his friendship with me as ammunition to assail his well-established reputation as a polite, logical, and accurate interactor. Please move on and get a life.
Salim :)
#14 Posted by teshah on August 13, 2005 5:49:29 pm
Re: # 10
# 10 by saadanis
Thank you dear Anis for reacting so forcefully to my post and trying to remove some of my “misconceptions’ about Mai’s honorable and rewarding alleged rape.
I am not sure about your sex but from the way you reacted you appear to belong to Mai’s gender irrespective of your sex. In fact your deep interest and intimate knowledge about Mai’s case, especially that about her brother’s tryst, clearly shows that you belong to Mai’s ‘Bharhua’ group. No wonder as flies do gather where there is ‘gurh’ (sweets). These are the inherent dynamics of the flies however they may hide it.
Now coming to your ‘clarfications’ ad-seriatim: -
1. A report also says that Mai’s brother was only 12 years old and another report says he was married only six months after Mai was raped and had become rich on that account. Do you rely on reports only or have some personal knowledge also?
2. This is your view but the Mai’s family did submit to the village Panchayat (not jirga, as I know) and did not go to the judicial system. It was only which suo moto action of the trial court, so to say, ‘coercive justice’ (jabri insaf) which drew them to their net.
You call the judicial system in Pakistan a legitimate system whereas the people of Pakistan consider it as the most corrupt and stupid system. It works like a pendulum. Just see Mai’s case. The trial court sentences six accused to death. The appellate Multan High court sets aside the death sentence of five of them and converts the death sentence of the sixth to life imprisonment as according to it there was no evidence of rape having been committed. The high court also recommended action against the trial court which had awarded death sentence without any evidence of rape. And then what about the Shariat Court which wanted to deliver justice under Allah’s Hadood Laws; and so on till the Supreme Court jumps into the foray only to throw the case into the limbo. It is, for your information, the same court which had been working under the PCO and has perhaps still not taken oath under the Constitution of Pakistan.
3. I am sorry to say that you are so judgmental and dogmatic that it seems useless to argue with you. You call Indian Panchayat people as ‘quasi-illiterate’ (you perhaps mean ‘quasi-literate’) but what is your Mukhtaran Mai. She is a low cast illiterate woman, verily ‘blown out of proportion’ by the alleged rape of Mastoies and her jingoistic ‘Bharhuas’. She reminds me of a couplet of a Punjabi sage-poet Mian Moammad Bakhsh who says:
“Niichaan di ashnaai kolon faiz kise nah paaya
kikar te angoor charhaya te har guchha zakhmaya”
She blackened the faces of all who supported her. First the trial court which got a stricture from the High Court. Then the high court which held that Mai was a chaste woman not raped by any body. Then the one accused, Mr. Abdul Khaliq, who claimed in the high court to be the husband of Mai and got life imprisonment on that count. Let us see what happens to his lawyer, Mr Ehtizaz Ehsan, the Supreme Court and last of all Ms Nilofar Bakhtiar who garlanded her with the Madare Millat Gold Medal. Oh! I forgot her true jingoists, the NGO’s, who are now to face a new law in Pakistan to regulate their activities. And above all put the government of Pakistan which wanted to help her to shame.
At the end, what do you mean by the ‘infantile illusions’ the attempt to preserve which is so ‘heart rending to you? As I said in my previous post, sex as such, in my view, is not a moral issue. Different people and different classes have different sex values. A low cast woman like Mai or her biradari would do nothing to prevent her rape but be ‘brave’ to be so happy to agitate it the world over and accept rewards for that afterwards. And there is a middle class, Dr. Shazia, who passed through the same trauma but not feeling honored but felt so upset and insulted that she left the country to weep in virtual exile. One can have sympathy for a noble woman who considers rape something to be ashamed of and not to feel happy ‘ever afterwards’ as it is a tragic fact that there can be no recompense or justice for a crime like rape except the Judaist Law of marrying the rapist with the victim as per `Fatwa, of Deoband ulema.
Rgds.
# 10 by saadanis
Thank you dear Anis for reacting so forcefully to my post and trying to remove some of my “misconceptions’ about Mai’s honorable and rewarding alleged rape.
I am not sure about your sex but from the way you reacted you appear to belong to Mai’s gender irrespective of your sex. In fact your deep interest and intimate knowledge about Mai’s case, especially that about her brother’s tryst, clearly shows that you belong to Mai’s ‘Bharhua’ group. No wonder as flies do gather where there is ‘gurh’ (sweets). These are the inherent dynamics of the flies however they may hide it.
Now coming to your ‘clarfications’ ad-seriatim: -
1. A report also says that Mai’s brother was only 12 years old and another report says he was married only six months after Mai was raped and had become rich on that account. Do you rely on reports only or have some personal knowledge also?
2. This is your view but the Mai’s family did submit to the village Panchayat (not jirga, as I know) and did not go to the judicial system. It was only which suo moto action of the trial court, so to say, ‘coercive justice’ (jabri insaf) which drew them to their net.
You call the judicial system in Pakistan a legitimate system whereas the people of Pakistan consider it as the most corrupt and stupid system. It works like a pendulum. Just see Mai’s case. The trial court sentences six accused to death. The appellate Multan High court sets aside the death sentence of five of them and converts the death sentence of the sixth to life imprisonment as according to it there was no evidence of rape having been committed. The high court also recommended action against the trial court which had awarded death sentence without any evidence of rape. And then what about the Shariat Court which wanted to deliver justice under Allah’s Hadood Laws; and so on till the Supreme Court jumps into the foray only to throw the case into the limbo. It is, for your information, the same court which had been working under the PCO and has perhaps still not taken oath under the Constitution of Pakistan.
3. I am sorry to say that you are so judgmental and dogmatic that it seems useless to argue with you. You call Indian Panchayat people as ‘quasi-illiterate’ (you perhaps mean ‘quasi-literate’) but what is your Mukhtaran Mai. She is a low cast illiterate woman, verily ‘blown out of proportion’ by the alleged rape of Mastoies and her jingoistic ‘Bharhuas’. She reminds me of a couplet of a Punjabi sage-poet Mian Moammad Bakhsh who says:
“Niichaan di ashnaai kolon faiz kise nah paaya
kikar te angoor charhaya te har guchha zakhmaya”
She blackened the faces of all who supported her. First the trial court which got a stricture from the High Court. Then the high court which held that Mai was a chaste woman not raped by any body. Then the one accused, Mr. Abdul Khaliq, who claimed in the high court to be the husband of Mai and got life imprisonment on that count. Let us see what happens to his lawyer, Mr Ehtizaz Ehsan, the Supreme Court and last of all Ms Nilofar Bakhtiar who garlanded her with the Madare Millat Gold Medal. Oh! I forgot her true jingoists, the NGO’s, who are now to face a new law in Pakistan to regulate their activities. And above all put the government of Pakistan which wanted to help her to shame.
At the end, what do you mean by the ‘infantile illusions’ the attempt to preserve which is so ‘heart rending to you? As I said in my previous post, sex as such, in my view, is not a moral issue. Different people and different classes have different sex values. A low cast woman like Mai or her biradari would do nothing to prevent her rape but be ‘brave’ to be so happy to agitate it the world over and accept rewards for that afterwards. And there is a middle class, Dr. Shazia, who passed through the same trauma but not feeling honored but felt so upset and insulted that she left the country to weep in virtual exile. One can have sympathy for a noble woman who considers rape something to be ashamed of and not to feel happy ‘ever afterwards’ as it is a tragic fact that there can be no recompense or justice for a crime like rape except the Judaist Law of marrying the rapist with the victim as per `Fatwa, of Deoband ulema.
Rgds.
#15 Posted by teshah on August 13, 2005 7:02:20 pm
Re: # 12
#12 by Thorn_bird
Thank you dear thorn_bird for replying to my post.
As I had said in my post under reply by you, `Sex`, as such, is not a moral or ethical issue. Different cultures and different classes have different sex values. There are classes in society like Hira Mandi where sex is just a commodity. No question of honour, just a business. Rape for a prostitute would mean sex without payment, a theft, so to say.
Now Mastoi`s reaction to dishonour of their woman was only to seek revenge which could have been the honour killing so prevalent in the village culture. It could not be raping the brother of Mai. The next best thing was to marry Mai with the brother of the dishonoured Mastoi woman (Do you notice even her name is not known to this day unlike Mai who has become famous world over by dint of her rape). This is reported to have been done to compromise the issue. But the court stepped in suo moto and then NGOs which spoiled the whole show.
You have raised a personal question as to what would I had done in a similar situation. I would certainly not behaved like Mai or her family who did not demur even when Mai was allegedly being dragged for rape. And neither would I have made a roaring business encashing the alleged rape. I however still can`t believe that Mai was raped. It is all a big lie which is exposing the stupidity of our sex culture, which on the one hand leads to honour killing and the other treats sex just a commodity, a cheque to be encashed.
#12 by Thorn_bird
Thank you dear thorn_bird for replying to my post.
As I had said in my post under reply by you, `Sex`, as such, is not a moral or ethical issue. Different cultures and different classes have different sex values. There are classes in society like Hira Mandi where sex is just a commodity. No question of honour, just a business. Rape for a prostitute would mean sex without payment, a theft, so to say.
Now Mastoi`s reaction to dishonour of their woman was only to seek revenge which could have been the honour killing so prevalent in the village culture. It could not be raping the brother of Mai. The next best thing was to marry Mai with the brother of the dishonoured Mastoi woman (Do you notice even her name is not known to this day unlike Mai who has become famous world over by dint of her rape). This is reported to have been done to compromise the issue. But the court stepped in suo moto and then NGOs which spoiled the whole show.
You have raised a personal question as to what would I had done in a similar situation. I would certainly not behaved like Mai or her family who did not demur even when Mai was allegedly being dragged for rape. And neither would I have made a roaring business encashing the alleged rape. I however still can`t believe that Mai was raped. It is all a big lie which is exposing the stupidity of our sex culture, which on the one hand leads to honour killing and the other treats sex just a commodity, a cheque to be encashed.
#16 Posted by articulating on October 8, 2005 3:14:43 pm
The article in its second last paragraph says ``the general should be smart enough.......``...the general cannot be smart enough, either he is a general or else smart...the two seemingly never go together in pakistan....action is the enemy of thought and generals are the enemies of vision......they can think up strategies not their implications ....like zia in his islamization and now musharraf in his moderation......thanx
ammara
ammara
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