Idolizing the Koran
A Shiraz July 29, 2005
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#98 Posted by Emancipator on August 21, 2005 10:11:03 pm
I hope chowk staff will edit the final paper with the right spelling of the Quran (as understood by most Muslims today) I have none to blame but myself (the MS Word dictionary contains Koran so I carelessly used that spelling). Allah knows that I had no malicious intent and I hope he will forgive me.
Idolizing the Quran
Idolatry arises from an exaggerated respect translating into a misguided religious zeal. This adoration or zeal is directed towards an entity other than God. Muslims suspect Christians were guilty of this crime when they elevated a Prophet to the status of a God. The Hindus are accused of engaging in such idol worship to the promiscuous point that today they have innumerable Gods. Shiite Muslims are accused of idolatry when they elevate the status of Ali to an unusual degree. But there is an idolization common to most Muslims: idolizing the Quran.
Words printed on paper are elevated to such a height that they are folded into “Tawiz” and hung around the believers to protect them from disease and the ‘evil eye’. Such are the abnormal expectations attached to the printed Quran that believers often dissolve it in water and drink it as medicine. Unfortunately it is often the case that the wearer and the one who prepares this ‘holy paper’ or ‘medicine’ are quite often unaware of the meaning of the words.
Other examples of this exaggerated respect as demonstrated by some is kissing the Quran, pressing it against one’s eyes, avoiding pointing one’s feet towards it and sitting below the position of the book. Lastly an act I often found irrational is the elaborate measures taken to burn or discard all Arabic words that look even remotely ornate or Quran like.
It is not like the scholars of Islam have been ignorant of such idolatry. Many shake their heads over it, shrug their shoulders and exclaim with consternation and blame it in on the times. Others have waged righteous war against all idolatry. Illustration of such valiant acts is their prohibition of approaching the Prophet’s tomb. This was enacted to prohibit people from praying at the tomb, kissing the tomb and to prevent tying threads and prayer requests.
Another desperate action is the bulldozing of “Jannatul Baqi” (a graveyard holding the greatest martyrs and saints of Islam) to prevent people from kissing tombstones or stealing the sand for purposes of selling them as holy relics and remedies.
Men may say, ‘but what is the harm in such acts of devotion?’ Besides the fact that this is idolatry and therefore a sin, historically Muslims have suffered gravely because they have elevated their Holy Book to irrational heights.
Case in point is the day when a prototype of the Gutenberg press was presented to the Caliph of Turkey for purposes of printing the Quran. The Gutenberg press as we all know is responsible for the resurgence of Europe from the Dark Ages more than any other invention. When such an opportunity was presented to Muslims before it ever made an impression in Europe the scribes of the Quran rejected this machine and denounced it as an “instrument of the devil”.
The rationale of the scribes was that since the printing press did not perform ablution before ‘writing’ the Quran it was therefore unfit but moreover it was devilish for printing the Quran without performing an ablution.
One sees countless more side affects of such adoration with the riots and public unrest that erupts throughout the Islamic world. Most recently there was the incident of a village Doctor in Pakistan who was lynched because someone accused him of throwing a page of the Holy Book in the sewers. After the lynching the crowd went about destroying public infrastructure, looting shops and vandalizing taxpayer-sponsored property.
Remember idolatry arises not from hatred but an extreme of adoration and devotion. It is when you begin to love a human being more than you love God that you begin to commit idolatry. It is when you begin to love money more than God that you commit idolatry. It is when you begin to associate irrational zeal and passion to an aspect of religion or a religious icon is when you begin to commit a sin. It is when you misplace the source of your salvation be it money, the saints, books or the Prophet’s family when you begin to elevate something to the status of a God.
Besides it being a sin irrational zeal is a weakness that your foes will most certainly exploit. You have already seen evidence of self-destructive behavior amongst Muslims when a few socialists drew a picture of a pig and wrote “Mohammad” underneath. The resulting youth riots destroyed the fledgling and meager economy of that region. If you provide sensitive areas and “buttons” that are rooted in an unnecessary reverence your foes will most gladly press it and then watch with glee as you dance towards your destruction. Most importantly it is very easy for your foes to set you against your friends if you provide the world with simple interfaces into your psychology.
What then is the solution and what is the way forward?
As it is the Quran might as well be placed on an altar and worshipped or placed in a museum and admired from afar because few Muslims bother to understand it. I advocate reading the Quran and devouring it, use it like a Japanese citizen employs his English dictionary – let the pages get dog eared, let the cover become tattered, carry it everywhere and read it whenever you get the chance, be it at a bus stop or an airport terminal.
Currently Muslims bathe before touching the Quran, women undergoing their menses are not allowed to touch the book and if you accidentally break wind or have to rush to the bathroom then you must bathe all over again before touching the Quran. These are the symptoms of a reluctant student not the ways of a passionate seeker of revelation. Whoever has taught you these ways only wishes to formalize and ritualize your approach to a message that runs through your veins. Do not let them distance you from your salvation!
Such is the fear amongst Muslims of the Quran that they are afraid of attempting to understand it on their own lest they are misled. They feel that if they must understand the Quran they must only do so through the help of the oft-controlling scholars and oft corrupt Imams of the Islamic world. Because they fail to take the initiative and explore the wonders of the Quran on their own they have come to the point where all understanding trickles down from a few blind (or partially blind) men. If you are going to be misled by reading the Quran you will be misled whether you go through an Imam or the Shaikh of the Harimain Sharifain. Why wait then for an Imam to lead you to what is the most important thing in your life? Pick up and read the book. Then honor the message not the papyrus, not the binding, not the elaborate illustration but the message for it will be your understanding of the message which will save you not your elaborate displays of devotion.
Muslims need to understand that the meaning of the words in the Quran is more important than the words printed on paper. The understanding of the Quran is more important than reciting the Quran with elaborate ululations (recited often without understanding). The translation of the Quran is of greater importance than memorizing words one does not comprehend.
Perhaps of paramount importance is translating the Quran into the local dialects of the Islamic world because the message of the Quran should be transmitted and understood by everyone from the native Arabic speaker to the most pathetic farm boy in the Indus valley. This is precisely what Luther and William Tyndale envisioned for Europe and this is the secret to Europe’s resurgence. Christians, particularly the Protestant Christians read their Bible, understand it and discuss it with their fellow believers. They carry their Bibles as they carry their wallet, close to their hearts an ever-ready savior.
A hurdle to understanding the Quran is its arcane Arabic. Some may argue that it’s better for people to learn Arabic rather than corrupting the Quran by translating it into a native dialect. The truth is that there is no end to claiming that “translating the Quran will corrupt its meaning”. God has so sealed the hearts of Muslims that they refuse to understand the Quran, even in Arabic. For it is an oft-heard claim of Arab speakers that they don’t understand the Quran because the language is ancient and therefore beyond comprehension. If this is the case then the Islamic world has lost the message of the Quran even for the native Arab speaker.
But even if we were all one billion of us to learn ancient Arabic as spoken in the dialect of the tribe of Quraish, instituting Arabic as the language of the Islamic world also poses the threat of squashing all innovation and creativity and personal respect, identity and pride of all the nations under Islam from the Bengali to the Turk.
When the words of the Quran become alive for her people, nay when the words come alive for all people then Muslims may expect a revitalization of their fortunes and a return to the glory days of the Companions of the Prophet Mohammad. Moreover when Muslims dare to understand not just the Quran but the Torah and the Bible they will most certainly regain what they seem to have lost and cannot attain. May we all attain our heavens!
Idolizing the Quran
Idolatry arises from an exaggerated respect translating into a misguided religious zeal. This adoration or zeal is directed towards an entity other than God. Muslims suspect Christians were guilty of this crime when they elevated a Prophet to the status of a God. The Hindus are accused of engaging in such idol worship to the promiscuous point that today they have innumerable Gods. Shiite Muslims are accused of idolatry when they elevate the status of Ali to an unusual degree. But there is an idolization common to most Muslims: idolizing the Quran.
Words printed on paper are elevated to such a height that they are folded into “Tawiz” and hung around the believers to protect them from disease and the ‘evil eye’. Such are the abnormal expectations attached to the printed Quran that believers often dissolve it in water and drink it as medicine. Unfortunately it is often the case that the wearer and the one who prepares this ‘holy paper’ or ‘medicine’ are quite often unaware of the meaning of the words.
Other examples of this exaggerated respect as demonstrated by some is kissing the Quran, pressing it against one’s eyes, avoiding pointing one’s feet towards it and sitting below the position of the book. Lastly an act I often found irrational is the elaborate measures taken to burn or discard all Arabic words that look even remotely ornate or Quran like.
It is not like the scholars of Islam have been ignorant of such idolatry. Many shake their heads over it, shrug their shoulders and exclaim with consternation and blame it in on the times. Others have waged righteous war against all idolatry. Illustration of such valiant acts is their prohibition of approaching the Prophet’s tomb. This was enacted to prohibit people from praying at the tomb, kissing the tomb and to prevent tying threads and prayer requests.
Another desperate action is the bulldozing of “Jannatul Baqi” (a graveyard holding the greatest martyrs and saints of Islam) to prevent people from kissing tombstones or stealing the sand for purposes of selling them as holy relics and remedies.
Men may say, ‘but what is the harm in such acts of devotion?’ Besides the fact that this is idolatry and therefore a sin, historically Muslims have suffered gravely because they have elevated their Holy Book to irrational heights.
Case in point is the day when a prototype of the Gutenberg press was presented to the Caliph of Turkey for purposes of printing the Quran. The Gutenberg press as we all know is responsible for the resurgence of Europe from the Dark Ages more than any other invention. When such an opportunity was presented to Muslims before it ever made an impression in Europe the scribes of the Quran rejected this machine and denounced it as an “instrument of the devil”.
The rationale of the scribes was that since the printing press did not perform ablution before ‘writing’ the Quran it was therefore unfit but moreover it was devilish for printing the Quran without performing an ablution.
One sees countless more side affects of such adoration with the riots and public unrest that erupts throughout the Islamic world. Most recently there was the incident of a village Doctor in Pakistan who was lynched because someone accused him of throwing a page of the Holy Book in the sewers. After the lynching the crowd went about destroying public infrastructure, looting shops and vandalizing taxpayer-sponsored property.
Remember idolatry arises not from hatred but an extreme of adoration and devotion. It is when you begin to love a human being more than you love God that you begin to commit idolatry. It is when you begin to love money more than God that you commit idolatry. It is when you begin to associate irrational zeal and passion to an aspect of religion or a religious icon is when you begin to commit a sin. It is when you misplace the source of your salvation be it money, the saints, books or the Prophet’s family when you begin to elevate something to the status of a God.
Besides it being a sin irrational zeal is a weakness that your foes will most certainly exploit. You have already seen evidence of self-destructive behavior amongst Muslims when a few socialists drew a picture of a pig and wrote “Mohammad” underneath. The resulting youth riots destroyed the fledgling and meager economy of that region. If you provide sensitive areas and “buttons” that are rooted in an unnecessary reverence your foes will most gladly press it and then watch with glee as you dance towards your destruction. Most importantly it is very easy for your foes to set you against your friends if you provide the world with simple interfaces into your psychology.
What then is the solution and what is the way forward?
As it is the Quran might as well be placed on an altar and worshipped or placed in a museum and admired from afar because few Muslims bother to understand it. I advocate reading the Quran and devouring it, use it like a Japanese citizen employs his English dictionary – let the pages get dog eared, let the cover become tattered, carry it everywhere and read it whenever you get the chance, be it at a bus stop or an airport terminal.
Currently Muslims bathe before touching the Quran, women undergoing their menses are not allowed to touch the book and if you accidentally break wind or have to rush to the bathroom then you must bathe all over again before touching the Quran. These are the symptoms of a reluctant student not the ways of a passionate seeker of revelation. Whoever has taught you these ways only wishes to formalize and ritualize your approach to a message that runs through your veins. Do not let them distance you from your salvation!
Such is the fear amongst Muslims of the Quran that they are afraid of attempting to understand it on their own lest they are misled. They feel that if they must understand the Quran they must only do so through the help of the oft-controlling scholars and oft corrupt Imams of the Islamic world. Because they fail to take the initiative and explore the wonders of the Quran on their own they have come to the point where all understanding trickles down from a few blind (or partially blind) men. If you are going to be misled by reading the Quran you will be misled whether you go through an Imam or the Shaikh of the Harimain Sharifain. Why wait then for an Imam to lead you to what is the most important thing in your life? Pick up and read the book. Then honor the message not the papyrus, not the binding, not the elaborate illustration but the message for it will be your understanding of the message which will save you not your elaborate displays of devotion.
Muslims need to understand that the meaning of the words in the Quran is more important than the words printed on paper. The understanding of the Quran is more important than reciting the Quran with elaborate ululations (recited often without understanding). The translation of the Quran is of greater importance than memorizing words one does not comprehend.
Perhaps of paramount importance is translating the Quran into the local dialects of the Islamic world because the message of the Quran should be transmitted and understood by everyone from the native Arabic speaker to the most pathetic farm boy in the Indus valley. This is precisely what Luther and William Tyndale envisioned for Europe and this is the secret to Europe’s resurgence. Christians, particularly the Protestant Christians read their Bible, understand it and discuss it with their fellow believers. They carry their Bibles as they carry their wallet, close to their hearts an ever-ready savior.
A hurdle to understanding the Quran is its arcane Arabic. Some may argue that it’s better for people to learn Arabic rather than corrupting the Quran by translating it into a native dialect. The truth is that there is no end to claiming that “translating the Quran will corrupt its meaning”. God has so sealed the hearts of Muslims that they refuse to understand the Quran, even in Arabic. For it is an oft-heard claim of Arab speakers that they don’t understand the Quran because the language is ancient and therefore beyond comprehension. If this is the case then the Islamic world has lost the message of the Quran even for the native Arab speaker.
But even if we were all one billion of us to learn ancient Arabic as spoken in the dialect of the tribe of Quraish, instituting Arabic as the language of the Islamic world also poses the threat of squashing all innovation and creativity and personal respect, identity and pride of all the nations under Islam from the Bengali to the Turk.
When the words of the Quran become alive for her people, nay when the words come alive for all people then Muslims may expect a revitalization of their fortunes and a return to the glory days of the Companions of the Prophet Mohammad. Moreover when Muslims dare to understand not just the Quran but the Torah and the Bible they will most certainly regain what they seem to have lost and cannot attain. May we all attain our heavens!
#97 Posted by masanamuthu on August 6, 2005 6:48:21 pm
hamidm:
My comment in this board is to just let you know that I`m your fan.. Your ``Allah and Gabby`` series is too good.. A little bit of ridicule would go a long way in clearing up the current mess..
My comment in this board is to just let you know that I`m your fan.. Your ``Allah and Gabby`` series is too good.. A little bit of ridicule would go a long way in clearing up the current mess..
#96 Posted by hamidm2 on August 2, 2005 8:29:43 pm
Re: # 94
stinger,
.... please make up your mind - do you want to kiss a holy object or not ?.......... it is okay either way, as long as you don`t hog the object and let other people give it a smooch too ....... it is also not a bad idea to avoid open mouth kissing to avoid all kinds of nasty communicable diseases ........... other than that i don`t think there is any harm in kissing stones, books, quadrupeds, the chaddar on a pir`s mazar, a holy man`s feet (as long as they are clean), etc. etc ......... kissing is not haram unless it leads to sex with the object of your desires .............
.... pucker up !
stinger,
.... please make up your mind - do you want to kiss a holy object or not ?.......... it is okay either way, as long as you don`t hog the object and let other people give it a smooch too ....... it is also not a bad idea to avoid open mouth kissing to avoid all kinds of nasty communicable diseases ........... other than that i don`t think there is any harm in kissing stones, books, quadrupeds, the chaddar on a pir`s mazar, a holy man`s feet (as long as they are clean), etc. etc ......... kissing is not haram unless it leads to sex with the object of your desires .............
.... pucker up !
#95 Posted by hamidm2 on August 2, 2005 6:54:56 pm
Re: # 92
khare,
...... sorry, i can`t help you with - blasphemy and all that, you know ...... besides, you kafirs are always trying to cause trouble for us true believers ...... astagfirullah !
khare,
...... sorry, i can`t help you with - blasphemy and all that, you know ...... besides, you kafirs are always trying to cause trouble for us true believers ...... astagfirullah !
#94 Posted by stinger_kh on August 2, 2005 5:42:59 pm
Re: # 89
hamidm ..... you can kiss anything and anyone your heart desires - just make sure the object of your desire is clean ...........then u can even kiss pus.. i don`t want to tangle this i am talking about holy objects. If u can kiss those objects as ur suggesting it to every one so can u plz refer me where it is written to kiss holy objects. There should be some respect for them, kissing an object can help its cause in doing so........
hamidm ..... you can kiss anything and anyone your heart desires - just make sure the object of your desire is clean ...........then u can even kiss pus.. i don`t want to tangle this i am talking about holy objects. If u can kiss those objects as ur suggesting it to every one so can u plz refer me where it is written to kiss holy objects. There should be some respect for them, kissing an object can help its cause in doing so........
#93 Posted by teshah on August 2, 2005 3:01:24 pm
Re: # 91
I wonder what gabby is trying to find now in the caves when the Mullah of the Pak Land have put an end to this `nabuwwat` business. They think there is no more any need of this gabby business as there is already enough second hand material for them to carry on the business themselves till the dooms day. So both of them can go to sleep while the mullah does a roaring business with the terrible sword of blasphemy in their hands.
I wonder what gabby is trying to find now in the caves when the Mullah of the Pak Land have put an end to this `nabuwwat` business. They think there is no more any need of this gabby business as there is already enough second hand material for them to carry on the business themselves till the dooms day. So both of them can go to sleep while the mullah does a roaring business with the terrible sword of blasphemy in their hands.
#92 Posted by khare on August 2, 2005 2:05:58 pm
Re: # 82 Hamidm:
.......first there was this matter of the goat eating six chapters and then there were those verses about zayd`s wife .........
I would greatly appreciate explanation of this. I kind of know that it was Aisha`s hadith which alludes to the fact that some verses have been lost ..because a goat ate it (really?). But, probably not completely. What were those verses? Also, I have no idea at all about what you referred to as ``verses about Zaid`s wife``. Are you referring to the ONE where Allah syas it is OK for Muhammad to marry adopted son`s wife? Or are there more? Appreciate a reply ...will help this non-muslim understand things... have been reading about Islam and Islamic history.
.......first there was this matter of the goat eating six chapters and then there were those verses about zayd`s wife .........
I would greatly appreciate explanation of this. I kind of know that it was Aisha`s hadith which alludes to the fact that some verses have been lost ..because a goat ate it (really?). But, probably not completely. What were those verses? Also, I have no idea at all about what you referred to as ``verses about Zaid`s wife``. Are you referring to the ONE where Allah syas it is OK for Muhammad to marry adopted son`s wife? Or are there more? Appreciate a reply ...will help this non-muslim understand things... have been reading about Islam and Islamic history.
#91 Posted by dullabhatti on August 2, 2005 1:48:38 pm
#90
not really..allah is a lay back kind of guy who has gone really lazy after making to the top of the food chain...he is also over confident..he has this illusion that once he said something it is done right away and right way...so he does things and forgets...and goes back to booze and women...there are hundreds of 72 sets of them waiting in line....gabby on the other hand is a practical guy...very resourceful..has to be for his job...don`t know when allah will ask him to find whom in which cave....it is a tough job..we know with all the hi-tech gadgetry bush could not find OBL in 5 mile square in tora bora...gabby does that every day with closed eyes...so gabby knows the ground realities and is trying to convey that information to allah mian..but allah mian like a typical arab sheikh is too busy with his leisure and don`t want to listen..and admit he might have been wrong in the past.
frankly he too old to fix his mistakes now..time has left him behind....humans might have to clean themselves the mess his stubborn decisions left behind.
not really..allah is a lay back kind of guy who has gone really lazy after making to the top of the food chain...he is also over confident..he has this illusion that once he said something it is done right away and right way...so he does things and forgets...and goes back to booze and women...there are hundreds of 72 sets of them waiting in line....gabby on the other hand is a practical guy...very resourceful..has to be for his job...don`t know when allah will ask him to find whom in which cave....it is a tough job..we know with all the hi-tech gadgetry bush could not find OBL in 5 mile square in tora bora...gabby does that every day with closed eyes...so gabby knows the ground realities and is trying to convey that information to allah mian..but allah mian like a typical arab sheikh is too busy with his leisure and don`t want to listen..and admit he might have been wrong in the past.
frankly he too old to fix his mistakes now..time has left him behind....humans might have to clean themselves the mess his stubborn decisions left behind.
#90 Posted by anil on August 2, 2005 10:22:04 am
Re: # 82
Hamidm: Your gabby character is smarter than Allah.
Anil
Hamidm: Your gabby character is smarter than Allah.
Anil
#89 Posted by hamidm2 on August 2, 2005 8:08:15 am
Re: # 86
stinger,
..... you can kiss anything and anyone your heart desires - just make sure the object of your desire is clean ...........
stinger,
..... you can kiss anything and anyone your heart desires - just make sure the object of your desire is clean ...........
#88 Posted by arstoo on August 1, 2005 10:26:13 pm
Dear Friends,
On every board whenever any confusion about anything arises peopele jump on that what prescribed and what is proscribed in Islam. etc etc. etc.
First test of the relegion is how it treats every human being. On this test Islam and Prohet fail miserably. Because they treat muslim woman diffrently than muslim man. And non muslim are treated worse than muslim woman.
Second test is how far the relegion or for that reason any group tolerates the critcal analysis. Islamist and Muslims are thw worst example of any tolrance.
Muslims seems to be suffering from paranoia and victim hood syndrome. In that mental frame their reasons and logic don`t have much rationality.
Before any body jumps on me I will quote Iqbal
Main khatkat hoon dil-e-yazdan main kantay ki tarah,
Toon faqat allha hoo, allah hoo, allah hoo
On every board whenever any confusion about anything arises peopele jump on that what prescribed and what is proscribed in Islam. etc etc. etc.
First test of the relegion is how it treats every human being. On this test Islam and Prohet fail miserably. Because they treat muslim woman diffrently than muslim man. And non muslim are treated worse than muslim woman.
Second test is how far the relegion or for that reason any group tolerates the critcal analysis. Islamist and Muslims are thw worst example of any tolrance.
Muslims seems to be suffering from paranoia and victim hood syndrome. In that mental frame their reasons and logic don`t have much rationality.
Before any body jumps on me I will quote Iqbal
Main khatkat hoon dil-e-yazdan main kantay ki tarah,
Toon faqat allha hoo, allah hoo, allah hoo
#87 Posted by dost_mittar on August 1, 2005 6:02:45 pm
teshah#84:
Hazoor, arz ye hai ke when one is a non-believer, like I am, one is not constrained by faith. To the faithful, the Qur`an is a word of God; to the unfaithful, it could seem to be HIM whispering in `his` ears whatever suited his purpose at a given time. For people like us, it is your favourite chacha`s couplet, Jaanata hooN teri janat ki haqeeqat lekin.....
As for the Canadian Immigration, they follow the practices of whatever society they are dealing with. Thus, from the subcontinent, they would require invitation cards, photographs, etc. for proof of wedding whereas people in other countries have to show only their marriage certificates for proof of marriage. Since Indian Muslim law presumably does not allow adoptions, any such adoption is suspiciously viewed as adoption of convenience solely for the purpose of obtaining immigration.
Hazoor, arz ye hai ke when one is a non-believer, like I am, one is not constrained by faith. To the faithful, the Qur`an is a word of God; to the unfaithful, it could seem to be HIM whispering in `his` ears whatever suited his purpose at a given time. For people like us, it is your favourite chacha`s couplet, Jaanata hooN teri janat ki haqeeqat lekin.....
As for the Canadian Immigration, they follow the practices of whatever society they are dealing with. Thus, from the subcontinent, they would require invitation cards, photographs, etc. for proof of wedding whereas people in other countries have to show only their marriage certificates for proof of marriage. Since Indian Muslim law presumably does not allow adoptions, any such adoption is suspiciously viewed as adoption of convenience solely for the purpose of obtaining immigration.
#86 Posted by stinger_kh on August 1, 2005 5:31:44 pm
We all started from worship and Quran now i don`t where we r going. Can any one enlighten the fact of worship and kissing of any object .
Re: # 43 referred on this issue
Re: # 43 referred on this issue
#85 Posted by hamidm2 on August 1, 2005 5:27:16 pm
t,
...... i honestly believe that the day i can publish my ``allah & gabby`` series in pakistan and monty python gets to make ``life of al-gindi`` without burining down half of karachi and cairo, we will be fine ......... nobody has hijacked your religion (and mine ) other than the dour demons that rule our minds .............
Life`s a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life`s a laugh and death`s a joke. It`s true.
You`ll see it`s all a show.
Keep `em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And...
...... i honestly believe that the day i can publish my ``allah & gabby`` series in pakistan and monty python gets to make ``life of al-gindi`` without burining down half of karachi and cairo, we will be fine ......... nobody has hijacked your religion (and mine ) other than the dour demons that rule our minds .............
Life`s a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life`s a laugh and death`s a joke. It`s true.
You`ll see it`s all a show.
Keep `em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And...
#84 Posted by teshah on August 1, 2005 5:23:52 pm
Re: # 49
dost-mittar
“And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.”
Mittar ji I appreciate your acumen and power of expression but excuse me here you stumbled a bit about facts of the case. As far as I know it was not the Prophet but Allah Himself who relaxed the rule prohibiting marriage with the adopted son’s wife quite manifestly in the Quran for enabling the Prophet to marry the wife of his adopted son, Zaid bin Haaris. You may say that the Prophet tried to cover his desire to marry that woman, but according to the Quran Allah clearly alludes to his desire to this effect when he was trying to patch up estrangement between Zaid and his wife. I quote here the relevant portion of the Quran:
“Surae Al-Ahzab
33:37 Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: ``Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.`` But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah`s command must be fulfilled.”
Allah seems to have come too close to the prophet in this case as He fulfilled what was hidden in the heart of the prophet and not what he actually displayed. In the process Allah also removed the difficulty assumed to be faced by the believers in this regard. But was it so? It can raise many questions in the hearts of the ‘disbelievers’ who continued to have adopted sons and not like to avail the facility of marrying their wives.
It is interesting to note from your post that Canada’s Immigration Office is using Islam against the Muslims by rejecting their applications for sponsorship of the adopted persons. Question arises that if the Canadian government is so serious about implementing Islam why don’t they ban the interest also which is more strictly prohibited in Islam. In any case why are they selective in application of Islam when the injunctions of the Quran are meant for all human beings and not for Indo-Canadian Muslims only who can hardly be called Muslims as no one can be called as such without submitting a declaration of ‘Khatme Nabuwat’ to the government of Pakistan. How have they made a mockery of religion ‘Enlightened moderation’ not withstanding! It reminds us again and again the great Ghalib who says:
Baazichae ittjfaal he dunia mere aage
Hota he shab-o-roz tamasha mere aage
Ik khel he aurange Suleman mere nazdik
Ik baat he ehjaaze Massiha mere aage
Juz naam nahin surat-e- aalam mujhe manzoor
Juz wehm nahin hastie ashia mere aage
May God save Islam and the Muslims from its practitioners, the mullah!
Excuse me if it makes your head all the more spinning.
dost-mittar
“And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.”
Mittar ji I appreciate your acumen and power of expression but excuse me here you stumbled a bit about facts of the case. As far as I know it was not the Prophet but Allah Himself who relaxed the rule prohibiting marriage with the adopted son’s wife quite manifestly in the Quran for enabling the Prophet to marry the wife of his adopted son, Zaid bin Haaris. You may say that the Prophet tried to cover his desire to marry that woman, but according to the Quran Allah clearly alludes to his desire to this effect when he was trying to patch up estrangement between Zaid and his wife. I quote here the relevant portion of the Quran:
“Surae Al-Ahzab
33:37 Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: ``Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.`` But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah`s command must be fulfilled.”
Allah seems to have come too close to the prophet in this case as He fulfilled what was hidden in the heart of the prophet and not what he actually displayed. In the process Allah also removed the difficulty assumed to be faced by the believers in this regard. But was it so? It can raise many questions in the hearts of the ‘disbelievers’ who continued to have adopted sons and not like to avail the facility of marrying their wives.
It is interesting to note from your post that Canada’s Immigration Office is using Islam against the Muslims by rejecting their applications for sponsorship of the adopted persons. Question arises that if the Canadian government is so serious about implementing Islam why don’t they ban the interest also which is more strictly prohibited in Islam. In any case why are they selective in application of Islam when the injunctions of the Quran are meant for all human beings and not for Indo-Canadian Muslims only who can hardly be called Muslims as no one can be called as such without submitting a declaration of ‘Khatme Nabuwat’ to the government of Pakistan. How have they made a mockery of religion ‘Enlightened moderation’ not withstanding! It reminds us again and again the great Ghalib who says:
Baazichae ittjfaal he dunia mere aage
Hota he shab-o-roz tamasha mere aage
Ik khel he aurange Suleman mere nazdik
Ik baat he ehjaaze Massiha mere aage
Juz naam nahin surat-e- aalam mujhe manzoor
Juz wehm nahin hastie ashia mere aage
May God save Islam and the Muslims from its practitioners, the mullah!
Excuse me if it makes your head all the more spinning.
#83 Posted by temporal on August 1, 2005 5:09:04 pm
hamidm:
you are in fine form with gabby...keep them coming!
as for claims of `religion of peace`...arey bhai in history more mayhem and destruction has been cause in the name of god and religion...
why single out islam?...on second thoughts forget i asked;)
like most folks not `enlightened` enough to select or create their religion i was born into one and am trying to learn and live with it from within...
otoh i did try to lure you to purchase an area franchise of the one i was toying with...daGooders...the offer is still open...(it has no prophets, books, rituals, dogmas...just a basic creed to `do good` ... and the arbiter of that criterion is that individual`s conscience...this will work well with 99.9 % of us... am non-plussed about extending this invite to serial killers, rapists and such....their idea of good maybe a tad too violent for me)
#82 Posted by hamidm2 on August 1, 2005 3:29:05 pm
the hijacking .......
gabby : allah mian, do you know that last religion you sent down to man on earth .....
allah: you mean, the one i sent down to joe smith in utah .......
gabby: ha, ha, very funny !......no, no, you know perfectly well that that idiocy was a farce perpetuated by a bunch of oversexed farmers who wanted to have as many wives as they had cows ........ i am talking about islam, the last and perfect religion we sent down to muhammad of mecca ........
allah: i know .... just kidding ...... so what happened to islam
gabby: it is being hijacked ! ........ i warned you about this when you were going about this business of sending me down with all kinds of conflicting messages without keeping track of the chronological order, and what preceeded what, and what was symbolic and what was for real .......... i told you that man was not smart enough to keep all that stuff straight without messing it up ............
allah: stop talking in riddles !.......you sound like that poet from toronto ......... just tell me what happend .........
gabby: well, first there was this matter of the goat eating six chapters and then there were those verses about zayd`s wife .........
allah: five chapters, not six ........ and we set that zayd thing straight by having imam abu hanifa and his cousin hambal explain it to the bedouin fools .....
gabby: jeez !...... okay, five ... and, just for the record, hambal was not imam hanifa`s cousin and , no, they did not clear up the mess because the muslims ended up with seventy sects ..........as a matter of fact, that guy hambal is responsible for creating the mess that the ummah finds itself in now - he was the original wahabi and is now the patron saint of osama bin ladin .............
allah: osama who? ......is he a mutazilite ? ....... i thought we destroyed them all and had their silly books burned and even had some of them beaten till they were blind ........ i thought the ummah was back on the straight and narrow .......
gabby: (shaking his wings in exasperation): allah mian, no, he is not a mutazilite, he is a wahabi who has hijacked your religion and is leading the people astray - he is making young men blow themselves up even though you have specifically forbidden suicide ...........
allah: ...... i have ? .........gabby, i am confused; i thought the mutazilites were leading the people astray and that is why we sent down imam ghazali .......... where did this osama guy come from .......and please stop calling me `mian` - you know it is a derogatory term that the horrible hindoos use for the true believers, don`t you?
gabby: for your sake, stop sweating the small stuff !.......... i tell you, this man osama and his followers have hijacked the religion and everyone is hopping mad at the muslims .........
allah: who ? ... the jews? .... i don`t care - they are a bunch of trouble makers themselves and i have half a mind to send them back to wander in the desert ......
gabby: but they have atv`s and gps now ....... see, what you made me do !....... this is serious and you think it is some kind of a joke ....... allah mian, i tell you, we have to do something to prevent this hijacking ..........
allah: so what do you want me to do ?....... you know i cannot send down another prophet because we said that muhammad was the last prophet and we can`t go back on our word ..... now, can we?
gabby: but can`t you send down someone - anyone, not a prophet - to find osama and put an end to this nonsense ....... you know that he is hiding in a cave near landi kotal and gets hot meals delivered every day from hamid gul`s kitchen ..........
allah: (with a smile and a wink) he does ?............ come here gabby, give me a hug ......... you worry too much ....... i have already taken care of this - i have karl rove on the case and he will stop this dastardly hijacking with a little help from that lovable munchkin, rummy ........ nobody can hijack anything .........
gabby: but then why are you distracting carl rove when he has to take care of this mess ..........
allah: i work in wonderous ways ................
#81 Posted by hamidm2 on August 1, 2005 1:47:54 pm
temporal,
`` am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…``
....... i hear you and everyone else who is now proclaiming that islam is a religion of peace and the greatest thing since seedless medina dates ............ but have you ever considered the possibility that the people might have been hijacked by the religion ? ....... if we accept that possibility it might lead to meaningful reform instead of trite platitudes ........ just a thought ........
`` am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…``
....... i hear you and everyone else who is now proclaiming that islam is a religion of peace and the greatest thing since seedless medina dates ............ but have you ever considered the possibility that the people might have been hijacked by the religion ? ....... if we accept that possibility it might lead to meaningful reform instead of trite platitudes ........ just a thought ........
#80 Posted by dost_mittar on August 1, 2005 1:46:37 pm
kaalchakra:
I am amazed at your interactions with temporal. As a long-time chowkie, you must know that he has never claimed his religion to be superior to others` and that he is a complete believer in tolerance -I don`t know if he would approve the word `acceptance` - of all faiths.
satyamvada:
To me there are several difference between Hinduism and Abrahmic religions, not jsut the concept of God.
When people say that all relgions are basically the same or similar, this can be true only wrt Abrahmic religions on the one side and the Indic faiths on the other; as far as the two systems, I see more contrast than similarities.
Yesterday, I went to someone`s new house for a havan ceremony and another difference hit me for the first time, and I am surprised that I did not observe it earier. Hindus generally pray to their God/gods for health, happiness, prosperity and to show them the right path and for peace for themselves and the whole world. In Islam, it is as if the Hindus` prayers have been answered by God and he has provided them in the qur`an an instructions manual for health, happiness, peace and prosperity and for relationship among people and communities.
I am amazed at your interactions with temporal. As a long-time chowkie, you must know that he has never claimed his religion to be superior to others` and that he is a complete believer in tolerance -I don`t know if he would approve the word `acceptance` - of all faiths.
satyamvada:
To me there are several difference between Hinduism and Abrahmic religions, not jsut the concept of God.
When people say that all relgions are basically the same or similar, this can be true only wrt Abrahmic religions on the one side and the Indic faiths on the other; as far as the two systems, I see more contrast than similarities.
Yesterday, I went to someone`s new house for a havan ceremony and another difference hit me for the first time, and I am surprised that I did not observe it earier. Hindus generally pray to their God/gods for health, happiness, prosperity and to show them the right path and for peace for themselves and the whole world. In Islam, it is as if the Hindus` prayers have been answered by God and he has provided them in the qur`an an instructions manual for health, happiness, peace and prosperity and for relationship among people and communities.
#79 Posted by KaalChakra on August 1, 2005 1:45:40 pm
temporal ji,
I have been attending a gurdwara for the last couple of months. I like the atmosphere there, and I love the bani, although I am just learning to get a hang of the cermonies. It`s an amazingly peaceful place. Never thought I would be able to sit through three-hour long sessions of religious discussions without getting bored. Just bought locally produced Jap Ji Sahib CDs. Five bucks a set!
With a couple of friends I have been discussing the basics of East Asian Buddhism. It`s fascinating, and I don`t think I fully understand it. The mindset there appears to be a great mix of the Chinese and Indian approches to life. I did not know, for instance, that female Buddhas were so popular in some of these parts, or even that Angkor vaat has been cared for by Buddhist monks, or the belief that through good action and by following the right path one could turn into a Buddha! What a beautiful concept for those willing to open their hearts to wisdom and goodness flowing in from every direction.
I have been attending a gurdwara for the last couple of months. I like the atmosphere there, and I love the bani, although I am just learning to get a hang of the cermonies. It`s an amazingly peaceful place. Never thought I would be able to sit through three-hour long sessions of religious discussions without getting bored. Just bought locally produced Jap Ji Sahib CDs. Five bucks a set!
With a couple of friends I have been discussing the basics of East Asian Buddhism. It`s fascinating, and I don`t think I fully understand it. The mindset there appears to be a great mix of the Chinese and Indian approches to life. I did not know, for instance, that female Buddhas were so popular in some of these parts, or even that Angkor vaat has been cared for by Buddhist monks, or the belief that through good action and by following the right path one could turn into a Buddha! What a beautiful concept for those willing to open their hearts to wisdom and goodness flowing in from every direction.
#78 Posted by temporal on August 1, 2005 12:43:35 pm
kaalchakra sahib:
may i ask one question?
…what religion or lack of religion do you subscribe to? as Ralph i recall you were an indian christian…as kaalchakra i read somewhere you proclaiming yourself a hindu…if you are a hindu …kis qis’m kay hindu ho? batao gay nahin?
as for me, let me volunteer...
i am a small ‘m’ muslim…not a shia, sunni or any other sect
rgds
t
digression on religion
my outlook on major world religions is that they all show their followers the same path… and even those who do not follow any organized religion as such…atheists, agnostics etc. subscribe to humanitarian values to the best of their abilities… these followers may chose to walk, ride, drive…
take driving as a metaphor...to reach a destination one can drive left, or right, drive standard, semi automatic or automatic…drive with the hood down, window open…lots of options…
as i have acknowledged earlier that in major religion the followers all tend to have more similar goals than dissimilar ones…
and as followers they select their mode
as a muslim…my preoccupation these days is not other practitioners…i am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…and in my one man jehad other world citizens and religions do not figure as much…some day...hope to rectify that...
may i ask one question?
…what religion or lack of religion do you subscribe to? as Ralph i recall you were an indian christian…as kaalchakra i read somewhere you proclaiming yourself a hindu…if you are a hindu …kis qis’m kay hindu ho? batao gay nahin?
as for me, let me volunteer...
i am a small ‘m’ muslim…not a shia, sunni or any other sect
rgds
t
digression on religion
my outlook on major world religions is that they all show their followers the same path… and even those who do not follow any organized religion as such…atheists, agnostics etc. subscribe to humanitarian values to the best of their abilities… these followers may chose to walk, ride, drive…
take driving as a metaphor...to reach a destination one can drive left, or right, drive standard, semi automatic or automatic…drive with the hood down, window open…lots of options…
as i have acknowledged earlier that in major religion the followers all tend to have more similar goals than dissimilar ones…
and as followers they select their mode
as a muslim…my preoccupation these days is not other practitioners…i am disturbed and concerned with what happens in my religion…the hijacking of it by a vocal, vested, misinterpreting minority…and in my one man jehad other world citizens and religions do not figure as much…some day...hope to rectify that...
#77 Posted by KaalChakra on August 1, 2005 10:52:46 am
chaliye, aapki marzi.
I do hope you do not believe that anyone prays ``to`` any stone. Only a complete dunderhead will believe that, and I have never held you to be one.
I do hope you do not believe that anyone prays ``to`` any stone. Only a complete dunderhead will believe that, and I have never held you to be one.
#76 Posted by temporal on August 1, 2005 10:43:00 am
kaalchakra sahib:
we are not on the same page!
one of us has serious comprehension issues....enuff said...please refrain from twisting...i have no interest in playing your game ... smiley icon added...you go your way...till we are on the same page in future....same icon...
exhibit A
#73 by temporal on August 1, 2005 10:12am PT
#70:
You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.
(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)
i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...
show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above
also, i will add, provide the link!
exhibit B
#74 by kaalchakra on August 1, 2005 10:21am PT
temporal ji
Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.
Thanks.
Exhibit C
#32 by temporal on July 30, 2005 6:05pm PT
mr. shah:
such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...
re: worship
i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication
and
i do not worship any stone..black or white
and
i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!
we are not on the same page!
one of us has serious comprehension issues....enuff said...please refrain from twisting...i have no interest in playing your game ... smiley icon added...you go your way...till we are on the same page in future....same icon...
exhibit A
#73 by temporal on August 1, 2005 10:12am PT
#70:
You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.
(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)
i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...
show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above
also, i will add, provide the link!
exhibit B
#74 by kaalchakra on August 1, 2005 10:21am PT
temporal ji
Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.
Thanks.
Exhibit C
#32 by temporal on July 30, 2005 6:05pm PT
mr. shah:
such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...
re: worship
i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication
and
i do not worship any stone..black or white
and
i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!
#75 Posted by satyamvada on August 1, 2005 10:39:53 am
Dost-mitter,
One other thing you want to tell your paki friends is that the `concept of God` in
the dharmic traditions (hindu, bouddha, jaina, sikh etc) are very different than
in the religions like islam, christianity and judaism.
#74 Posted by KaalChakra on August 1, 2005 10:21:45 am
temporal ji
Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.
Thanks.
Why go far? Kindly refer to # 31 and # 32.
Thanks.
#73 Posted by temporal on August 1, 2005 10:12:42 am
#70:
You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.
(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)
i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...
show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above
also, i will add, provide the link!
You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.
(smiley icon:...there he goes putting words in my mouth)
i have written a few posts on chowk over the years...even a few articles...
show me one quote from there reflecting what you wrote above
also, i will add, provide the link!
#72 Posted by KaalChakra on August 1, 2005 10:03:31 am
hamidm2
Bombay was recently turned into Noah`s Ark. May be God punished us for worshipping stones and quadrupeds :(
Bombay was recently turned into Noah`s Ark. May be God punished us for worshipping stones and quadrupeds :(
#71 Posted by hamidm2 on August 1, 2005 9:53:43 am
al-lah’s connundrum ………
( the scene opens with al-lah and his favorite angel, gabriel, sitting around on cushions of fluffy clouds eating peyote pakoras and sipping heavenly nectar from al-lah’s favorite wine stream in jannah )
gabby (yawning and preening his wings with his semitic nose) : these nightly visits to the cave are killing me – why couldn’t you deliver this message in one big installment instead of leaking it out in bits and pieces …
al-lah: gabby, you complain too much ….. you know there a method to this madness; after all, I know everything and, trust me, it is for the best of mankind ............ and, in any case, you know that muhammad is not an educated man – he possibly couldn’t handle drinking from a fire hose and the people he leads also have a short attention span and are having a hard time getting the message even when i send it down in three line verses ……..
gabby: you mean they have adhd ?
al-lah: what is that ?
gabby (rolling his eyes): you don’t know everything do you ?
al-lah: don’t be a wiseass ….. anyway, you have to be careful with how you deliver my message; make sure there are no screwups like the last time when you gave people the impression that it was okay to worship manat and uzza – i have had to work overtime to come up with amendments and corrections to ……
gabby: aw c’mon ! that is not fair !...... you know it was your favorite angel, iblees, who intercepted and garbled up those verses …….. if you had listened to me and delivered the message in code instead of in Arabic we could have avoided the embarrassment .......... or at least keep the rascal locked up instead of letting him run loose in the the sands of saudi arabia while I am trying to do my job ………
al-lah: saudi arabia ?....... i think you better lay off the pakoras …….. you know I cannot interfere with free will – and iblees is part of that equation …………
gabby : sigh!...... but at least you could make sure that they transcribe the message the next day and put a dat-time stamp on it instead of carrying in around in their heads or writing it down on palm leaves and stone tablets …….. one of these days a goat is going to come along and eat a couple of chapters and all hell is going to break loose ……… at least, keep a backup copy of the original in the vault in case something horrible happens .............. by the way, how are the girls ?
al-lah: who?... manat and uzza? ............ they are fine, other than the usual growing up problems, you know ……. but really, i think you worry too much ................. i will make sure these people don’t mess up things like the jews and the christians before them who let the priests and other charlatans run amok with my word …… every time i think about it, it makes me want to send down another plague on those people !..... ingrates !
gabby: lighten up, for your sake !....... haven’t those people suffered enough already, wandering the desert for centuries with those long pointy noses …… by the way, why do I have to have this nose ?
al-lah: if it is good for my chosen people, it should be good enough for you …… besides, it looks good on you ………be thankful, I could have made you look like those horrible hindoos in hindoostan …………
gabby: yeah, what were you thinking when you made that big mess .......... do You know that a monkey – i think his name is hanuman - kidnapped their goddess and ran off to an island and they are all upset about it ………… when are we going to fix that ?
al-lah: (sighing) ...... i have given up on that bunch of kafirs! ….. they have defiled my name by worshiping stone idols and quadrupeds ........... maybe I should make it rain for forty days and forty nights to teach them a lesson ............
gabby: we have already done that with noah’s people ........... let’s come with something new: how about condemning them to seven cycles of reincarnation before letting them off the hook ….. imagine, a brahmin coming back as a jackass or a dalit code coolie to atone for his pompous ways …….
Al-lah: (looking at him affectiionatley) you are wicked ! .......... now get off your duff and take these verses down................ it is getting late and I don’t want to keep him waiting ………....
Gabby: can we change this “seal of the prophet’s “ to “ the last prophet” - you know, it could cause a lot of confusion in the future ………
Al-lah: just do what i tell you to do and stop trying to play the editor – stick to your job !
Gabby (muttering as he walks away): i am tired of being an errand boy ….....…i need to find another job ……
al-lah: what was that !...... i heard you !
( the scene opens with al-lah and his favorite angel, gabriel, sitting around on cushions of fluffy clouds eating peyote pakoras and sipping heavenly nectar from al-lah’s favorite wine stream in jannah )
gabby (yawning and preening his wings with his semitic nose) : these nightly visits to the cave are killing me – why couldn’t you deliver this message in one big installment instead of leaking it out in bits and pieces …
al-lah: gabby, you complain too much ….. you know there a method to this madness; after all, I know everything and, trust me, it is for the best of mankind ............ and, in any case, you know that muhammad is not an educated man – he possibly couldn’t handle drinking from a fire hose and the people he leads also have a short attention span and are having a hard time getting the message even when i send it down in three line verses ……..
gabby: you mean they have adhd ?
al-lah: what is that ?
gabby (rolling his eyes): you don’t know everything do you ?
al-lah: don’t be a wiseass ….. anyway, you have to be careful with how you deliver my message; make sure there are no screwups like the last time when you gave people the impression that it was okay to worship manat and uzza – i have had to work overtime to come up with amendments and corrections to ……
gabby: aw c’mon ! that is not fair !...... you know it was your favorite angel, iblees, who intercepted and garbled up those verses …….. if you had listened to me and delivered the message in code instead of in Arabic we could have avoided the embarrassment .......... or at least keep the rascal locked up instead of letting him run loose in the the sands of saudi arabia while I am trying to do my job ………
al-lah: saudi arabia ?....... i think you better lay off the pakoras …….. you know I cannot interfere with free will – and iblees is part of that equation …………
gabby : sigh!...... but at least you could make sure that they transcribe the message the next day and put a dat-time stamp on it instead of carrying in around in their heads or writing it down on palm leaves and stone tablets …….. one of these days a goat is going to come along and eat a couple of chapters and all hell is going to break loose ……… at least, keep a backup copy of the original in the vault in case something horrible happens .............. by the way, how are the girls ?
al-lah: who?... manat and uzza? ............ they are fine, other than the usual growing up problems, you know ……. but really, i think you worry too much ................. i will make sure these people don’t mess up things like the jews and the christians before them who let the priests and other charlatans run amok with my word …… every time i think about it, it makes me want to send down another plague on those people !..... ingrates !
gabby: lighten up, for your sake !....... haven’t those people suffered enough already, wandering the desert for centuries with those long pointy noses …… by the way, why do I have to have this nose ?
al-lah: if it is good for my chosen people, it should be good enough for you …… besides, it looks good on you ………be thankful, I could have made you look like those horrible hindoos in hindoostan …………
gabby: yeah, what were you thinking when you made that big mess .......... do You know that a monkey – i think his name is hanuman - kidnapped their goddess and ran off to an island and they are all upset about it ………… when are we going to fix that ?
al-lah: (sighing) ...... i have given up on that bunch of kafirs! ….. they have defiled my name by worshiping stone idols and quadrupeds ........... maybe I should make it rain for forty days and forty nights to teach them a lesson ............
gabby: we have already done that with noah’s people ........... let’s come with something new: how about condemning them to seven cycles of reincarnation before letting them off the hook ….. imagine, a brahmin coming back as a jackass or a dalit code coolie to atone for his pompous ways …….
Al-lah: (looking at him affectiionatley) you are wicked ! .......... now get off your duff and take these verses down................ it is getting late and I don’t want to keep him waiting ………....
Gabby: can we change this “seal of the prophet’s “ to “ the last prophet” - you know, it could cause a lot of confusion in the future ………
Al-lah: just do what i tell you to do and stop trying to play the editor – stick to your job !
Gabby (muttering as he walks away): i am tired of being an errand boy ….....…i need to find another job ……
al-lah: what was that !...... i heard you !
#70 Posted by KaalChakra on August 1, 2005 9:53:31 am
temporal
Why blame the poor old allah (or even god or bag won) for our own shortcomings. We are responsible for our own words.
I will make my point as simply as I can.
The philosophy of ``live and let live`` works only when certain specific conditions are met. Those conditions are not met when some people firmly hold sacred beliefs that are not only completely wrongheaded but also extremely dangerous to the health and welfare of other people.
You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.
This one seemingly innocuous belief has brought untold misery to and discrimination against non Muslims in every country where your correligionists have grown stronger.
It is not enough then to sing and chant and dance the sufi dance when you defend the indefensible, and perpetrate the excreble.
In doing so, you as a condition of your participation, yourself, with deliberate intent, throw out the principle of `live and let live` out the window.
Liberals are supposed to look within. I invite you again to help fix the basic, fundamental problem. You, as a dedicated insider, will carry much greater credibility than I as an outsider do.
Why blame the poor old allah (or even god or bag won) for our own shortcomings. We are responsible for our own words.
I will make my point as simply as I can.
The philosophy of ``live and let live`` works only when certain specific conditions are met. Those conditions are not met when some people firmly hold sacred beliefs that are not only completely wrongheaded but also extremely dangerous to the health and welfare of other people.
You hold one such belief: that Islamic ``rituals of reverence`` are of very different nature and intent than is the ``worship`` of non Muslims. I don`t know if this belief is part of Islam itself or not, but even if it is, that does not become right.
This one seemingly innocuous belief has brought untold misery to and discrimination against non Muslims in every country where your correligionists have grown stronger.
It is not enough then to sing and chant and dance the sufi dance when you defend the indefensible, and perpetrate the excreble.
In doing so, you as a condition of your participation, yourself, with deliberate intent, throw out the principle of `live and let live` out the window.
Liberals are supposed to look within. I invite you again to help fix the basic, fundamental problem. You, as a dedicated insider, will carry much greater credibility than I as an outsider do.
#69 Posted by Urstruly on August 1, 2005 9:40:12 am
Re: # 64 Dost
Even though Islam as a code of life do permit certain cultural practices, but when these practices become in contrast with the system of values then they should be curbed and kept an eye on. So in my opinion, even though the practice of touching one`s parent`s or teachers` feet for reverence, is harmless and does not contrast any Islamic value, we must keep in our mind that we inherited it from our Hindu ancestors. Better yet, not to do it, since we have to follow the path of Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he set for us.
Even though Islam as a code of life do permit certain cultural practices, but when these practices become in contrast with the system of values then they should be curbed and kept an eye on. So in my opinion, even though the practice of touching one`s parent`s or teachers` feet for reverence, is harmless and does not contrast any Islamic value, we must keep in our mind that we inherited it from our Hindu ancestors. Better yet, not to do it, since we have to follow the path of Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he set for us.
#68 Posted by temporal on August 1, 2005 9:05:32 am
(caveat: long post)
second attempt
#62 by temporal on July 31, 2005 9:05pm PT
kaalchakra #57:
you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?
i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours
comprehendre?
forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?
did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?
i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...
underlined added for further emphasis
after not making even a half hearted attempt to understand me you launch into another one of your posts…sigh…i will make one final attempt…and if this does not work for you and me so be it:)
That is the central tragedy, isn`t it? …You, a most liberal of people, want all the understanding in the world without inconveniencing yourself to understand a single thing about others.
jeez, after all the exchanges we are not even on the same page…i can think of only two reasons for that….1: i am unable to explain where i come from or 2: you have permanent blinkers on your eyes or are deliberately avoiding to see my stance!
forget labeling me…your assertion is utterly preposterous that i want ALL the understanding in the world without understanding a SINGLE thing about other world/s
let me spell out in hopefully simple English what i have been saying over the years: I believe in live and let live ... do you understand this concept?
with six billion plus inhabiting this world hindus, muslims, christians, jews, buddhitsts, animists, atheists, agnostics, zoroastrians…(not in any particular order) have a right to live and let live…in harmony, in peace, in tolerance, and while avoiding loss of innocent civilian lives…
You are eager to deny every thing that the rest of mankind sees you doing and hears you saying, but you do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other`s everydayday beliefs.
this claim is preposterous…all the more since you are talking to me one on one!....mankind?...have some fear!
what is that i deny?
what is it that is done by my co-religionists in the name of my religion that over the years i have not denounced more vociferously than many?
as for your second claim here that i do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other’s every day beliefs….this is another myth
there was a time when i did comparative religious studies…all major religions evolve pointing to good and away from bad…and majority of their subscribers retain these basic good instincts…peaceful co-existence
…speaking of my religion…it does not sanction suicide bombing…it does not sanction taking innocent civilian lives…and while i fight the battles with those vested interests who have hijacked my religion to justify their nefarious activities in its name…and
… and other more pressing issues of survival, interests, priorities and passions ….i lack time to do more comparative religious studies…but am sure also that the ‘troubles’ there (in other religions) is not caused by this neglect of mine…smiley icon added!
You lay claim to every bit of respect anybody could give you, but you will not learn the elementary meaning of the word ``respect`` when it is time to offer it to others.
in the still of the night please reflect on what blasphemy you have written here
if anything
i give respect
not demand it!
What more can I - and others like me - say, my good friend, than you and people like you do not behave so out of deliberate and planned ill will, but out of ignorance, and a very weak moral framework that keeps you from making any effort to examine your ignorance.
you have hit the nail on the head…inadvertently….there is so much truth in what you say here…i am ignorant and have a very weak moral framework…but…
but for the same reason i try harder…to overcome these weaknesses
this has been a long post…and hopefully this will not go in vain…hopefully…but am not so sure…Allah knows best!
rgds
t
#67 Posted by Urstruly on August 1, 2005 8:28:53 am
Re: # 51 Raw Dust
I would like to show you some back ground of the verse 9:30 (Repentance:30), since it explains not only the relationship of Islam with that of Judaism and Christianity but also explains the reasons why Islam was introduced after all: The verse is quoted as:
(Repentance, 9:30): ``The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! ``
The background of this verse is that Jewish faith as it was introduced by Moses (pbuh) went into decline after King Solomon (pbuh) after various attacks from outsiders and especially during their subjugation by Assyrians they lost the basic tennents of their faith. As the history goes, Moses entrusted Levys (one tribe of Jews) as the custodians of the Holy text of Torah; during attacks Levys hid the holy tablets and their subsequent generations completely forgot where the text was hidden. Historians put this situation in the timeframe of 100 years, while Jewish people remained oblivious of where the text was. Another tribe named Cohens were entrusted by Moses (pbuh) to provide the religious leadreship to the Jewish people. Since refernce text went missing, Cohens started decreeing on their own discretion and altered the text. Years later Ezra (pbuh) was sent as Prophet who revived the religion and thus he is reverred by Jews. This revernce exceeded its limits and Jews started calling Ezra `son of God`. Once again Cohens were behind this, and even though they had the text, the used their on descretion as they used to do in past and declared Ezra as `son of God`. This is what Qura`n refers to as ``they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. `` in 9:30. Similarly, Bible never declared Jesus (pbuh) as `son of God` but this addition was made a couple of centuries later. Keep in mind that Bible was collated after approx. 90 years of Jesus Christ`s (pbuh) assencenssion to heavens.
So when Qura`n says that ``That is a saying from their mouth``, it is in fact paraphrasing Allah Who says that Jwish claim of Ezra and Christian claims of Jesus as sons of God are the words from the mouths of Jewish and Christian priests and not Ours.
It is further explained in the next verse Repentence, 9:31 ``They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)``.
There is a Hadith associated with this verse that explains its meaning. Once a Christian named Adi Ben Tai, who later converted to Islam and demanded an explanation of this verse (while saying that we Christians do not consider our priests as gods). Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that this verse means that there are priests who (``create`` new beleifs) making what is Haram (forbidden) as Halal (permissible) and vice versa., when they do not have any refernece from their books. (And those Christians and Jews who follow such preists unknowingly place them in the place of what is reserved for Allah; He is the Only One who can dictate what to Believe)
This is what is happening even today. There are many traditional Christian sects who are not only practicing homosexuality but also promoting it as well as if it was divine manadate, while both Old and New Testaments (Torah & Bible) strictly forbid the practice. So those Christians who follow such priests, are in fact send God to the backseat and putting these prietss in His place even though they won`t admitt it.
However, the narrator of this explanation (which in this case is Abu al a`la Moududi) emphasis that not all Christians and Jews accept and follow such practices. Qura`n testifies one Christian sect to be on righteous path which are Sabians, an orthodox Christian sect, who used to live in the present day Iraq area, during the time of Holy Prophet. They are probably extinct now.
I would like to show you some back ground of the verse 9:30 (Repentance:30), since it explains not only the relationship of Islam with that of Judaism and Christianity but also explains the reasons why Islam was introduced after all: The verse is quoted as:
(Repentance, 9:30): ``The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! ``
The background of this verse is that Jewish faith as it was introduced by Moses (pbuh) went into decline after King Solomon (pbuh) after various attacks from outsiders and especially during their subjugation by Assyrians they lost the basic tennents of their faith. As the history goes, Moses entrusted Levys (one tribe of Jews) as the custodians of the Holy text of Torah; during attacks Levys hid the holy tablets and their subsequent generations completely forgot where the text was hidden. Historians put this situation in the timeframe of 100 years, while Jewish people remained oblivious of where the text was. Another tribe named Cohens were entrusted by Moses (pbuh) to provide the religious leadreship to the Jewish people. Since refernce text went missing, Cohens started decreeing on their own discretion and altered the text. Years later Ezra (pbuh) was sent as Prophet who revived the religion and thus he is reverred by Jews. This revernce exceeded its limits and Jews started calling Ezra `son of God`. Once again Cohens were behind this, and even though they had the text, the used their on descretion as they used to do in past and declared Ezra as `son of God`. This is what Qura`n refers to as ``they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. `` in 9:30. Similarly, Bible never declared Jesus (pbuh) as `son of God` but this addition was made a couple of centuries later. Keep in mind that Bible was collated after approx. 90 years of Jesus Christ`s (pbuh) assencenssion to heavens.
So when Qura`n says that ``That is a saying from their mouth``, it is in fact paraphrasing Allah Who says that Jwish claim of Ezra and Christian claims of Jesus as sons of God are the words from the mouths of Jewish and Christian priests and not Ours.
It is further explained in the next verse Repentence, 9:31 ``They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)``.
There is a Hadith associated with this verse that explains its meaning. Once a Christian named Adi Ben Tai, who later converted to Islam and demanded an explanation of this verse (while saying that we Christians do not consider our priests as gods). Holy Prophet (pbuh) said that this verse means that there are priests who (``create`` new beleifs) making what is Haram (forbidden) as Halal (permissible) and vice versa., when they do not have any refernece from their books. (And those Christians and Jews who follow such preists unknowingly place them in the place of what is reserved for Allah; He is the Only One who can dictate what to Believe)
This is what is happening even today. There are many traditional Christian sects who are not only practicing homosexuality but also promoting it as well as if it was divine manadate, while both Old and New Testaments (Torah & Bible) strictly forbid the practice. So those Christians who follow such priests, are in fact send God to the backseat and putting these prietss in His place even though they won`t admitt it.
However, the narrator of this explanation (which in this case is Abu al a`la Moududi) emphasis that not all Christians and Jews accept and follow such practices. Qura`n testifies one Christian sect to be on righteous path which are Sabians, an orthodox Christian sect, who used to live in the present day Iraq area, during the time of Holy Prophet. They are probably extinct now.
#66 Posted by khamkhwa. on August 1, 2005 7:33:17 am
Re: # 61
...and the point is... aethism is better than islam...right...?
...and the point is... aethism is better than islam...right...?
#65 Posted by KaalChakra on August 1, 2005 6:09:35 am
dost-mittar
It`s amazing that a whole group of people will assert a divine right to be blind to, even denigrate, other`s simple cultural practices. When the Japanese bow to each other, they do not exchange a quick worship.
Temporal bhai
That is the central tragedy, isn`t it?
You, a most liberal of people, want all the understanding in the world without inconveniencing yourself to understand a single thing about others. You are eager to deny every thing that the rest of mankind sees you doing and hears you saying, but you do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other`s everydayday beliefs. You lay claim to every bit of respect anybody could give you, but you will not learn the elementary meaning of the word ``respect`` when it is time to offer it to others.
What more can I - and others like me - say, my good friend, than you and people like you do not behave so out of deliberate and planned ill will, but out of ignorance, and a very weak moral framework that keeps you from making any effort to examine your ignorance.
I will be glad to answer any you question you may have. I do believe there is a divinity in you which deserves respect.
arstoo
Raw_dust merely opined that with that kind of original, no new parody is needed. Should you too be a disbeliever, then ask yourself, are you badly parodied by AL-KAFIROON?
It`s amazing that a whole group of people will assert a divine right to be blind to, even denigrate, other`s simple cultural practices. When the Japanese bow to each other, they do not exchange a quick worship.
Temporal bhai
That is the central tragedy, isn`t it?
You, a most liberal of people, want all the understanding in the world without inconveniencing yourself to understand a single thing about others. You are eager to deny every thing that the rest of mankind sees you doing and hears you saying, but you do not wish to listen to basic explanations of other`s everydayday beliefs. You lay claim to every bit of respect anybody could give you, but you will not learn the elementary meaning of the word ``respect`` when it is time to offer it to others.
What more can I - and others like me - say, my good friend, than you and people like you do not behave so out of deliberate and planned ill will, but out of ignorance, and a very weak moral framework that keeps you from making any effort to examine your ignorance.
I will be glad to answer any you question you may have. I do believe there is a divinity in you which deserves respect.
arstoo
Raw_dust merely opined that with that kind of original, no new parody is needed. Should you too be a disbeliever, then ask yourself, are you badly parodied by AL-KAFIROON?
#64 Posted by dost_mittar on August 1, 2005 5:03:03 am
Urstruly#60:
Thanks for your elaboration. Actually, underneath apparent differences, we are more or less on the same page. It`s a continuum from respect to reverence to worship and it is difficult to make sharp distinctions, other than making some rough and ready rules, like not bowing before a statue or praying at the graves, etc. In your father`s time, most Punjabi muslims touched the feet of their elders just like their hindu counterparts, a practice which has now been discontinued in Pakistan (except, perhaps in Sindh); however, it does not mean that Punjabi Muslims were earlier worshipping their elders. Since you are familiar with Bollywood, you have probably noticed how many Hindu junior actors would touch the feet and seek the blessings of seniors like Dilip Kumar (Yusuf Khan) at award functions or Muslim actors doing the same to the senior Hindu actors; this is not one ``kanjar`` worshipping another but a simple sign of respect.
I am aware of the history of the compilation of the qur`an. The point I was making was that the Prophet may have prescribed some rules on respecting the message but not about a book which had yet to be compiled; that had to be in the realm of qiyas.
Thanks for your elaboration. Actually, underneath apparent differences, we are more or less on the same page. It`s a continuum from respect to reverence to worship and it is difficult to make sharp distinctions, other than making some rough and ready rules, like not bowing before a statue or praying at the graves, etc. In your father`s time, most Punjabi muslims touched the feet of their elders just like their hindu counterparts, a practice which has now been discontinued in Pakistan (except, perhaps in Sindh); however, it does not mean that Punjabi Muslims were earlier worshipping their elders. Since you are familiar with Bollywood, you have probably noticed how many Hindu junior actors would touch the feet and seek the blessings of seniors like Dilip Kumar (Yusuf Khan) at award functions or Muslim actors doing the same to the senior Hindu actors; this is not one ``kanjar`` worshipping another but a simple sign of respect.
I am aware of the history of the compilation of the qur`an. The point I was making was that the Prophet may have prescribed some rules on respecting the message but not about a book which had yet to be compiled; that had to be in the realm of qiyas.
#63 Posted by arstoo on August 1, 2005 12:38:06 am
#61 by Raw_Dust
Dear Raw Dust,
The gibbersish you wrote I am having difficulty to understand. There is no sarcasm, satire, parody in what you quote. If there is any I am having difficulty in seeing it.
Only thing funny is your sincerety.
Can you please explain what is the meaning of ``Sadaq Allah ul Azeem`` ?
Anybody on this board who wants to lampoon some aspect of Islam or prophet (PBUH).
Dear Raw Dust,
The gibbersish you wrote I am having difficulty to understand. There is no sarcasm, satire, parody in what you quote. If there is any I am having difficulty in seeing it.
Only thing funny is your sincerety.
Can you please explain what is the meaning of ``Sadaq Allah ul Azeem`` ?
Anybody on this board who wants to lampoon some aspect of Islam or prophet (PBUH).
#62 Posted by temporal on July 31, 2005 9:05:17 pm
kaalchakra #57:
you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?
i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours
comprehendre?
forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?
did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?
i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...
good night,
t
you say To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?
i said in #56: respect and tolerate those different from yours
comprehendre?
forget others, just between us two, who is obsessed with the other`s faith?
did i ever question your faith directly, indirectly, obliquely or even in passing?
i don`t expect you to... but for the record if you ever answer this in all honesty, you will gain more insight into your own personal quest...
good night,
t
#61 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 31, 2005 8:24:51 pm
arstoo sahib:
whats with parodies? Quran IMO happens to have some of the best lines - a sort of a neat narrative device, a paody Onto itself. So before, i go Worship Yuengling, let me recite a Chapter, Kaallchakra please pay heed. Very pertinent to our little two bit bakwas over the nuances of Worship vs. Prayer . Beautiful, Boolean and Bold in its addressing specifically Us, the Kafiroons. Here, it is:
AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)
Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!
109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,
109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
Sadaq Allah ul Azeem
whats with parodies? Quran IMO happens to have some of the best lines - a sort of a neat narrative device, a paody Onto itself. So before, i go Worship Yuengling, let me recite a Chapter, Kaallchakra please pay heed. Very pertinent to our little two bit bakwas over the nuances of Worship vs. Prayer . Beautiful, Boolean and Bold in its addressing specifically Us, the Kafiroons. Here, it is:
AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)
Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!
109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,
109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
Sadaq Allah ul Azeem
#60 Posted by Urstruly on July 31, 2005 8:00:22 pm
Re: # 49 Dost:
Why? My point of view is very clear. There are three levels at which an individual makes a `positive` connection with another entity - be it a deity, an icon, a person, or a book.
The first level of connection is that of Reverence. Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) have set the limits for the reverence with a special instruction that we must always follow the middle path. The degree of reverence to ones parents, teachers, holy books, mosques, to Prophet and to God himself are well defined and it has access to every one. The moulanas in villages in every sermon on Friday empahsis on these limits very well and a regular Allah Rakha knows his limkits very well. But the very Allah Rakha may be misled by his religious leaders as well. The worship of graves and using Qura`n as Taa`weez are the practices that people with week faith have started for their worldly benfits.
When these limits are transgressed the simple reverence first corrupts into iconolatry. For example, just before before Muhammad ibn-Abd-al-Wahab (1703–1792), who is the founder of Wahabi sect, Muslims of Arabia almost started worshipping a tree under which the Hudaibiya pact was signed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). The gravesite in Medina called Janat-ul-Baqi, which contains the graves of the companions and family members of Holy prophet and various other honorable personalities in Islamic history are burried became shrines, and people started pagan rituals over there which Holy Prophet speciifically forbade. The world of Islam should be greatly indebted to Wahab for taking a stand against these vile practices and for eradicating from the land on which once Holy prophet walked upon.
The idolatry is the furthr corruption of the iconolatry. These are the outright practices of Shirk that I have explained in my last post.
So you see how a simple practice of reverence if kept unchecked turns into iconolatry and outright idolatry. That is why every day of a Muslim is a day of Jihad, to keep on righteous path, and keep his flock on the righteous path as well.
2. It is a common misconception that Qura`n in the written form did not exist in written form prior to the third caliph. The truth of the matter is that Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself permitted both the penning of his ahadith and also the Qura`n. He himself organized the sequence of verses in Qura`n. That is the reason the very first verses of revelation are in the 30th , the last chapter of the book, whereas, the second Chapter of the Holy book (The Heifer) was reveled in the 10th-12th year of his Prophethood. But keep in mind that during Holy Prophet times the complete Qura`n existed only in the memory of his companions whom were taught by Prophet himself to memorize. It shouldn`t raise any eyebrows, because even today 10-12 year old children can memorize this book and there are millions of Hafiz around the globe. This is the living miracle of this book. At the time of Holy Prophet there also existed parchments and tree barks and clay tablets upon which some of the text was written. First time Muslims felt that this text should be collated in a book and saved in the book form was when the second Caliph sent a Jihad expedition against the false Prophet Mussailma the Liar and in that expedition some 2000+ Hafiz fell martyr.
Why? My point of view is very clear. There are three levels at which an individual makes a `positive` connection with another entity - be it a deity, an icon, a person, or a book.
The first level of connection is that of Reverence. Allah and his Prophet (pbuh) have set the limits for the reverence with a special instruction that we must always follow the middle path. The degree of reverence to ones parents, teachers, holy books, mosques, to Prophet and to God himself are well defined and it has access to every one. The moulanas in villages in every sermon on Friday empahsis on these limits very well and a regular Allah Rakha knows his limkits very well. But the very Allah Rakha may be misled by his religious leaders as well. The worship of graves and using Qura`n as Taa`weez are the practices that people with week faith have started for their worldly benfits.
When these limits are transgressed the simple reverence first corrupts into iconolatry. For example, just before before Muhammad ibn-Abd-al-Wahab (1703–1792), who is the founder of Wahabi sect, Muslims of Arabia almost started worshipping a tree under which the Hudaibiya pact was signed by Holy Prophet (pbuh). The gravesite in Medina called Janat-ul-Baqi, which contains the graves of the companions and family members of Holy prophet and various other honorable personalities in Islamic history are burried became shrines, and people started pagan rituals over there which Holy Prophet speciifically forbade. The world of Islam should be greatly indebted to Wahab for taking a stand against these vile practices and for eradicating from the land on which once Holy prophet walked upon.
The idolatry is the furthr corruption of the iconolatry. These are the outright practices of Shirk that I have explained in my last post.
So you see how a simple practice of reverence if kept unchecked turns into iconolatry and outright idolatry. That is why every day of a Muslim is a day of Jihad, to keep on righteous path, and keep his flock on the righteous path as well.
2. It is a common misconception that Qura`n in the written form did not exist in written form prior to the third caliph. The truth of the matter is that Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself permitted both the penning of his ahadith and also the Qura`n. He himself organized the sequence of verses in Qura`n. That is the reason the very first verses of revelation are in the 30th , the last chapter of the book, whereas, the second Chapter of the Holy book (The Heifer) was reveled in the 10th-12th year of his Prophethood. But keep in mind that during Holy Prophet times the complete Qura`n existed only in the memory of his companions whom were taught by Prophet himself to memorize. It shouldn`t raise any eyebrows, because even today 10-12 year old children can memorize this book and there are millions of Hafiz around the globe. This is the living miracle of this book. At the time of Holy Prophet there also existed parchments and tree barks and clay tablets upon which some of the text was written. First time Muslims felt that this text should be collated in a book and saved in the book form was when the second Caliph sent a Jihad expedition against the false Prophet Mussailma the Liar and in that expedition some 2000+ Hafiz fell martyr.
#59 Posted by ana on July 31, 2005 7:47:19 pm
stinger:
the slobbering of the cross as kaalchakra put it is not to worship the wood, but in reverence of that one cross that christ was crucified on. i, myself have slobbered on that cross, so i know a little of what that is about.
of course representations of that one cross have accompanied horrifying events such as the crusades, the inquisition, and crosses are still burned by that white christian group that calls itself the ku klux klan in the lawns of blacks, jews and anyone who they feel deserves a cross burning, so go figure. . . one slobbers, or goes about killing.
the slobbering of the cross as kaalchakra put it is not to worship the wood, but in reverence of that one cross that christ was crucified on. i, myself have slobbered on that cross, so i know a little of what that is about.
of course representations of that one cross have accompanied horrifying events such as the crusades, the inquisition, and crosses are still burned by that white christian group that calls itself the ku klux klan in the lawns of blacks, jews and anyone who they feel deserves a cross burning, so go figure. . . one slobbers, or goes about killing.
#58 Posted by arstoo on July 31, 2005 7:45:57 pm
Dear Friends,
In this board many people have sugested that every body should show respect to Kuran or prophet.
But I think that many people are showing too much respect.
It is high time that people shoul laugh, ridicule, lampoon, caricature, parody the most sacrosanct beliefs. If a belief system can not with stand the test of ridcule or lampooning then it reaky has some propblem.
As a child growing up, the first thing we use to do was make parodies of hindu gods and godess`s eg.
Dandak van pahunchay Ragu Rai,
Peechay Lachman beedee sulgai,
Bolay Ram suno priyay bhraata,
Tel bina andar nahi jaatta.
Or
Ram says to Sita
Ghannan ghannan ghan ghor andhera,
Dhoti andar farkat mora.
Sita replies
Suno Nath tum se kya chori,
Dhoti andar farkat more.
But this type stupid parodies did not har my faith in Hinduism in any way instead it has strengthen it.
I will now request my Muslim friends to write some pariodies about Prophet. Or If they request me I can give them a helping hand
In this board many people have sugested that every body should show respect to Kuran or prophet.
But I think that many people are showing too much respect.
It is high time that people shoul laugh, ridicule, lampoon, caricature, parody the most sacrosanct beliefs. If a belief system can not with stand the test of ridcule or lampooning then it reaky has some propblem.
As a child growing up, the first thing we use to do was make parodies of hindu gods and godess`s eg.
Dandak van pahunchay Ragu Rai,
Peechay Lachman beedee sulgai,
Bolay Ram suno priyay bhraata,
Tel bina andar nahi jaatta.
Or
Ram says to Sita
Ghannan ghannan ghan ghor andhera,
Dhoti andar farkat mora.
Sita replies
Suno Nath tum se kya chori,
Dhoti andar farkat more.
But this type stupid parodies did not har my faith in Hinduism in any way instead it has strengthen it.
I will now request my Muslim friends to write some pariodies about Prophet. Or If they request me I can give them a helping hand
#57 Posted by KaalChakra on July 31, 2005 6:52:09 pm
temporal
There is a wrong belief among some, IMHO, that while Muslims carry out `rituals of reverence` (R o` R), the rest `worship.`
This has caused huge problems historically, and the world over.
Let`s work together to remove this grave and dangerous misunderstanding, not reinforce it, not attempt to save it.
To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?
Must go now. I will be honored to continue learning from you and stinger_kh tomorrow.
There is a wrong belief among some, IMHO, that while Muslims carry out `rituals of reverence` (R o` R), the rest `worship.`
This has caused huge problems historically, and the world over.
Let`s work together to remove this grave and dangerous misunderstanding, not reinforce it, not attempt to save it.
To you yours only if yours does not, uninvited, hurt mine, right?
Must go now. I will be honored to continue learning from you and stinger_kh tomorrow.
#56 Posted by temporal on July 31, 2005 6:37:18 pm
#55:
jhoota kaun
jo oosnay kaha
dil sey laga ker rakhtay ho mujhay
jhootay kaheeN kay!
tou pichli jaib say
leather wallet nikal ker
dikha di oos ki tasveer
maiN nay
digression:
stop all this postulation friend...be true to your calling
respect and tolerate those different from yours
remember our efforts to formulate our declaration to live and let live?....to you yours, to me mine...and the first step is renunciation of use of force against civilians...
jhoota kaun
jo oosnay kaha
dil sey laga ker rakhtay ho mujhay
jhootay kaheeN kay!
tou pichli jaib say
leather wallet nikal ker
dikha di oos ki tasveer
maiN nay
digression:
stop all this postulation friend...be true to your calling
respect and tolerate those different from yours
remember our efforts to formulate our declaration to live and let live?....to you yours, to me mine...and the first step is renunciation of use of force against civilians...
#55 Posted by KaalChakra on July 31, 2005 6:25:21 pm
stinger_kh,
Sure, if that will make this conversation easier, I will say anything about God.
He/She/It exists. I don`t know too much about Him/Her/It. Certainly not much that I can be sure of. Certainly I am not so sure of my knowledge that I fight over my beliefs about God with a good person like you.
The True He/She/It must be simply too Grand for my limited human abilities to completely comprehend.
What Self-Respecting God would agree to be confined into my little brain? :(
At my most ambitious, I hope to understand merely a little of Him/Her/It. You might know a great deal more, but probably not ALL.
We should pool our knowledge. Even then the chances of our fully figuring out that Creator of Creators will be small.
About Christians, only they can explain what all that slobbering means. The same thing with Muslims when they kiss various objects.
In my younger days, when I had just enticed my first girl friends, I used to carry their pictures in my wallet.
Now, the pictures are gone, and so has the kissing :( :(
Sure, if that will make this conversation easier, I will say anything about God.
He/She/It exists. I don`t know too much about Him/Her/It. Certainly not much that I can be sure of. Certainly I am not so sure of my knowledge that I fight over my beliefs about God with a good person like you.
The True He/She/It must be simply too Grand for my limited human abilities to completely comprehend.
What Self-Respecting God would agree to be confined into my little brain? :(
At my most ambitious, I hope to understand merely a little of Him/Her/It. You might know a great deal more, but probably not ALL.
We should pool our knowledge. Even then the chances of our fully figuring out that Creator of Creators will be small.
About Christians, only they can explain what all that slobbering means. The same thing with Muslims when they kiss various objects.
In my younger days, when I had just enticed my first girl friends, I used to carry their pictures in my wallet.
Now, the pictures are gone, and so has the kissing :( :(
#54 Posted by stinger_kh on July 31, 2005 5:56:07 pm
Re: # 43
Yesturday i asked u some thing about GOD existence u fail me to answer by just saying that GOD exist. Let me continue with the worship issue of Parsis i came upwith following points. ``Zoroastrians regard fire as a pure creation, and thus fire became the symbol of Zoroastrianism much as the cross is the symbol of Christianity. Many Zoroastrian rites take place within fire temples. A holy fire is kept constantly burning.`` I see chiristans kissing there crossbar everyday so what is that u tell me.
Yesturday i asked u some thing about GOD existence u fail me to answer by just saying that GOD exist. Let me continue with the worship issue of Parsis i came upwith following points. ``Zoroastrians regard fire as a pure creation, and thus fire became the symbol of Zoroastrianism much as the cross is the symbol of Christianity. Many Zoroastrian rites take place within fire temples. A holy fire is kept constantly burning.`` I see chiristans kissing there crossbar everyday so what is that u tell me.
#52 Posted by ajeya on July 31, 2005 2:04:10 pm
“It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses. And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.” Surah 33:52
#51 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 31, 2005 2:02:40 pm
AlephNull:
``The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness. ``
The author(s) of Quran-ul-Hakeem werent too bright, check this out another factual error:
009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Please, notice the phrase: ``these are the words of their mouths;`` this means to refer presumably Jews` mouths but who is the receptor of these words? and what specific tribe of Jewish people is He talking about one from Medina? Jerusalem???? sounds like the case of shifty narrators to me.
kaalchakra:
i think dost-mittar provided the precise difference between worship and prayer.
``The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness. ``
The author(s) of Quran-ul-Hakeem werent too bright, check this out another factual error:
009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Please, notice the phrase: ``these are the words of their mouths;`` this means to refer presumably Jews` mouths but who is the receptor of these words? and what specific tribe of Jewish people is He talking about one from Medina? Jerusalem???? sounds like the case of shifty narrators to me.
kaalchakra:
i think dost-mittar provided the precise difference between worship and prayer.
#50 Posted by KaalChakra on July 31, 2005 7:36:24 am
Urstruly, dost-mittar
Urstruly does deserve one`s thanks/recognition/gratitude for at least trying to think.
I would still request others to please volunteer to us what they have been told is the difference between their own rituals of reverence and other people`s worshipping.
Simon hinted that this is one thing that everyone - supposedly every man, woman, and child - * knows *.
Urstruly does deserve one`s thanks/recognition/gratitude for at least trying to think.
I would still request others to please volunteer to us what they have been told is the difference between their own rituals of reverence and other people`s worshipping.
Simon hinted that this is one thing that everyone - supposedly every man, woman, and child - * knows *.
#49 Posted by dost_mittar on July 31, 2005 5:17:18 am
Urstruly (various)
Your attempts to make a distinction between reverence and worship through various definitions of idolatory and ``iconoclatory`` had my head spinning; I wonder how an illiterate Allah Rakha has no such problem.
How could the Prophet make rules about how to treat the book which had not yet been written and, maybe, not even envisaged (wasn`t it Hazrat Omar who decided to compile it in a book form?), not to speak of his doing so for printed versions centuries before Gutenberg?
On adoption, I know for a fact that Canada`s Immigration Office used to reject all applications for sponsorship by Indo-Canadian Muslims as invalid as it was against Muslim practice. And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.
Kaalchakra:
Here are some ``operational`` definitions:
- If you bow your head before the portrait of a man, that is worship; if I cut your head off for mentioning some unmentionables about that man or maybe even keeping his portrait, it is simply my reverence for the man.
- I am merely following some prescribed rules when I pray facing in the direction of a stone, you worship your ``butts`` in your ``butt-khana``.
Your attempts to make a distinction between reverence and worship through various definitions of idolatory and ``iconoclatory`` had my head spinning; I wonder how an illiterate Allah Rakha has no such problem.
How could the Prophet make rules about how to treat the book which had not yet been written and, maybe, not even envisaged (wasn`t it Hazrat Omar who decided to compile it in a book form?), not to speak of his doing so for printed versions centuries before Gutenberg?
On adoption, I know for a fact that Canada`s Immigration Office used to reject all applications for sponsorship by Indo-Canadian Muslims as invalid as it was against Muslim practice. And I believe, Ajeya is right in suggesting that the Prophet made adoptions illegal after he wanted to marry someone who his adopted son had married.
Kaalchakra:
Here are some ``operational`` definitions:
- If you bow your head before the portrait of a man, that is worship; if I cut your head off for mentioning some unmentionables about that man or maybe even keeping his portrait, it is simply my reverence for the man.
- I am merely following some prescribed rules when I pray facing in the direction of a stone, you worship your ``butts`` in your ``butt-khana``.
#48 Posted by ajeya on July 30, 2005 10:36:17 pm
Re: #44 by Urstruly
In an earlier post (#29), you had mentioned:
``Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father`s sisters, Mother`s sisters; brother`s daughters, sister`s daughters; foster-mothers (Who suckled you), foster-sisters;.....``
This tells me that according to Mohammeds`s rules, foster-sisters are always prohibited, but only foster-mothers who suckled you are prohibited. Therefore foster-mothers who did not suckle you are fair game, but foster-sisters are never so.
But in this post you say:
``So to address your question more directly an adopted can marry his or her foster parent or sibling.``
So which one is correct?
In an earlier post (#29), you had mentioned:
``Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father`s sisters, Mother`s sisters; brother`s daughters, sister`s daughters; foster-mothers (Who suckled you), foster-sisters;.....``
This tells me that according to Mohammeds`s rules, foster-sisters are always prohibited, but only foster-mothers who suckled you are prohibited. Therefore foster-mothers who did not suckle you are fair game, but foster-sisters are never so.
But in this post you say:
``So to address your question more directly an adopted can marry his or her foster parent or sibling.``
So which one is correct?
#47 Posted by Urstruly on July 30, 2005 9:20:15 pm
From the following few posts by Kalchakra and temporal etc. I see that there has emerged confusion about the Islamic concept of worship. The title of this article has added to the confusion as well.
In order to understand the monotheistic nature of Islam one must understand the difference between two closely related terms - idolatry and iconolatry . The term idolatry has two connotations i.e. a worshiper worships an idol assuming that the deity that he is worshipping has a physical form that is depicted in the form of the idol. The other connotation is that “this sacred idol” is the god or deity himself.
Similarly, iconolatry has two connotations as well – a symbol is associated with something or someone sacred and in extreme cases this symbol itself becomes either a deity or starts possessing the same characteristics, as a deity would have.
Islam forbids both practices of idolatry and iconolatry period. However, we see that Islam attaches some form of sanctity to places, objects, and symbols. Is this Iconolatry then? Or is it outright Idolatry, as the article suggests. There is such a gray line between these two concepts that a person who does not know the difference may confuse one for the other.
In Islam, in order to keep its practices stand clear from either of “iconolatry” or “idolatry” two concepts have been introduced to us by Allah and his Prophet (pbuh). These concepts are called “Kufr” and “shirk”.
A Kafir is one who practices kufr, and the practice of kufr is the outright rejection of the belief that a High Entity, God, or Allah exists. The modern English equivalents of Kafir are – atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, skeptics and to some lesser degree the doubters.
A “mushriq” on the other hand is that who does not deny the existence of a Higher Entity but he thinks that there are many higher entities that share the workload of the universe. A particular idol may be responsible for rains and other for prosperity A certain symbol may be associated with fertility and other with destruction. And the worshiper worships one or the other as per his requirement.
In Islamic cultural practices “iconolatry” has taken its extreme form. For example, in shia theology, Ali (RA) have all those powers that Allah has reserved for himself. Also in other sects certain dead personalities are addressed for help, wealth, prosperity, fertility etc. at their graves or in person assuming that they have a special connection to Allah or they share powers with Allah somehow, under one context or the other. Similarly, as for symbols the written text of Qura’n or other prayers is considered to heal etc.
Islam strictly forbids these practices because this is “Shirk” period. It stipulates that every man has a direct connection to Allah by saying that Allah is closer to man than his carotid artery.
However, I must clarify here that, there is certain demeanor as ordered by Holy Prophet (pbuh) while dealing with Qura’n as a book. Men and women are forbidden to touch it without ablution. Its recitation at certain times is forbidden. And it is instructed that we should listen to it attentively by taking a break from our daily affairs.
Similarly, Kaaba in Mecca has no significance other than a center point for direction and to produce uniformity among worshipers. The black stone at one corner of Kaaba is merely a marker from where the seven ritual circles begin. It is important because since Abraham established this house of God ten thousand years ago, he himself put that marker there, and its black color separated it from other stones. God may have ordered him to kiss this stone on every circle and offer prayer, and Holy Prophet (pbuh) continued the practice. Other than that, the building or the stone have no powers that they share with Allah and Muslism of any sect do not consider them forms of deity or deities themselves.
In order to understand the monotheistic nature of Islam one must understand the difference between two closely related terms - idolatry and iconolatry . The term idolatry has two connotations i.e. a worshiper worships an idol assuming that the deity that he is worshipping has a physical form that is depicted in the form of the idol. The other connotation is that “this sacred idol” is the god or deity himself.
Similarly, iconolatry has two connotations as well – a symbol is associated with something or someone sacred and in extreme cases this symbol itself becomes either a deity or starts possessing the same characteristics, as a deity would have.
Islam forbids both practices of idolatry and iconolatry period. However, we see that Islam attaches some form of sanctity to places, objects, and symbols. Is this Iconolatry then? Or is it outright Idolatry, as the article suggests. There is such a gray line between these two concepts that a person who does not know the difference may confuse one for the other.
In Islam, in order to keep its practices stand clear from either of “iconolatry” or “idolatry” two concepts have been introduced to us by Allah and his Prophet (pbuh). These concepts are called “Kufr” and “shirk”.
A Kafir is one who practices kufr, and the practice of kufr is the outright rejection of the belief that a High Entity, God, or Allah exists. The modern English equivalents of Kafir are – atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, skeptics and to some lesser degree the doubters.
A “mushriq” on the other hand is that who does not deny the existence of a Higher Entity but he thinks that there are many higher entities that share the workload of the universe. A particular idol may be responsible for rains and other for prosperity A certain symbol may be associated with fertility and other with destruction. And the worshiper worships one or the other as per his requirement.
In Islamic cultural practices “iconolatry” has taken its extreme form. For example, in shia theology, Ali (RA) have all those powers that Allah has reserved for himself. Also in other sects certain dead personalities are addressed for help, wealth, prosperity, fertility etc. at their graves or in person assuming that they have a special connection to Allah or they share powers with Allah somehow, under one context or the other. Similarly, as for symbols the written text of Qura’n or other prayers is considered to heal etc.
Islam strictly forbids these practices because this is “Shirk” period. It stipulates that every man has a direct connection to Allah by saying that Allah is closer to man than his carotid artery.
However, I must clarify here that, there is certain demeanor as ordered by Holy Prophet (pbuh) while dealing with Qura’n as a book. Men and women are forbidden to touch it without ablution. Its recitation at certain times is forbidden. And it is instructed that we should listen to it attentively by taking a break from our daily affairs.
Similarly, Kaaba in Mecca has no significance other than a center point for direction and to produce uniformity among worshipers. The black stone at one corner of Kaaba is merely a marker from where the seven ritual circles begin. It is important because since Abraham established this house of God ten thousand years ago, he himself put that marker there, and its black color separated it from other stones. God may have ordered him to kiss this stone on every circle and offer prayer, and Holy Prophet (pbuh) continued the practice. Other than that, the building or the stone have no powers that they share with Allah and Muslism of any sect do not consider them forms of deity or deities themselves.
#46 Posted by AlephNull on July 30, 2005 9:14:52 pm
A real investigation of the genetic relationship between the three so-called Abrahamic faiths may well throw up some surprises.
A common understanding of the relationship is, in a nutshell: Christianity as a schismatic variant of Judaism, minus the Chosen People tribalism and the taboos, modified for propagation among the Gentiles; and Islam as an attempt to reform and ‘rationalise’ Christianity by discarding some of the myths and the central mysteries as well as the institution of the Church, while reabsorbing some taboos from Judaism.
There is reason to believe that this description is completely wrong in the place it assigns to Christianity. Christianity may have originated not as a Hellenized Judaism, but rather, as a Judaized version of the pagan mystery religions that predominated in the Roman empire in the first century CE. According to this view, the metaphorical-mythical-mystical elements in the New Testament – stuff like the Triune God, Christ as the Son of God, the Virgin Birth, assorted miracles, the Resurrection, etc. were put there quite deliberately. There was never any intention to present the Gospels as a historical account of events that ‘actually’ occurred. It was well-understood that a historical Jesus never existed.
If this account is accurate, Christianity is the odd man out among the so-called triad Judaic religions, originating as a ‘pagan’ creed rather than a variant of Judaic monotheism. The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness.
A common understanding of the relationship is, in a nutshell: Christianity as a schismatic variant of Judaism, minus the Chosen People tribalism and the taboos, modified for propagation among the Gentiles; and Islam as an attempt to reform and ‘rationalise’ Christianity by discarding some of the myths and the central mysteries as well as the institution of the Church, while reabsorbing some taboos from Judaism.
There is reason to believe that this description is completely wrong in the place it assigns to Christianity. Christianity may have originated not as a Hellenized Judaism, but rather, as a Judaized version of the pagan mystery religions that predominated in the Roman empire in the first century CE. According to this view, the metaphorical-mythical-mystical elements in the New Testament – stuff like the Triune God, Christ as the Son of God, the Virgin Birth, assorted miracles, the Resurrection, etc. were put there quite deliberately. There was never any intention to present the Gospels as a historical account of events that ‘actually’ occurred. It was well-understood that a historical Jesus never existed.
If this account is accurate, Christianity is the odd man out among the so-called triad Judaic religions, originating as a ‘pagan’ creed rather than a variant of Judaic monotheism. The attempt by the human author(s) of the Quran to purge Christianity of obvious ‘irrationality’ and ‘idolatry’ by, for instance decreeing that Christ was a Prophet and not the Son of God, would then be a consequence of misunderstanding and misplaced concreteness.
#45 Posted by ana on July 30, 2005 8:34:25 pm
the various points of interest so far have been:
*athar vs. arthur.
*athar`s questionable ``return`` to the faith.
*koran vs. qur`an.
*worship as opposed to reverence.
- - if the qur`an were indeed just a book in the eyes of a group of people, a man or a village wouldn`t have to be destroyed for allegedly desecrating it now would it?
- - if many muslims do understand the difference between worship and reverence then why is it that a group of muslim men brutally and fatally punish those who would desecrate it?
what then is reverence? and what is worship. and are excess reverence and worship synonymous.
i believe shiraz sahib is already testing this idea of reverence as opposed to worship in his constant usage of the spelling ``koran`` as opposed to ``qur`an`` -- a spelling he has chosen to use more than twenty times in this article (which beats bill clinton standing outside a running plane and using the term genocide twenty times to refer to what happened in rwanda within a span of no more and perhaps less than ten minutes). already it has gotten a riled-up reaction, and questioning.
reading this article, i can`t really determine that shiraz`s views have changed all that much. it is certainly a lot more reasonable than past attempts. advocating that one read the qur`an and devour it is reading it as one would tolkien, or c. s. lewis, or faiz, ghalib or iqbal, is not necessarily a return. . . it is a continuing journey to a destination where shiraz will still meet with massive resistance. courage!
*athar vs. arthur.
*athar`s questionable ``return`` to the faith.
*koran vs. qur`an.
*worship as opposed to reverence.
- - if the qur`an were indeed just a book in the eyes of a group of people, a man or a village wouldn`t have to be destroyed for allegedly desecrating it now would it?
- - if many muslims do understand the difference between worship and reverence then why is it that a group of muslim men brutally and fatally punish those who would desecrate it?
what then is reverence? and what is worship. and are excess reverence and worship synonymous.
i believe shiraz sahib is already testing this idea of reverence as opposed to worship in his constant usage of the spelling ``koran`` as opposed to ``qur`an`` -- a spelling he has chosen to use more than twenty times in this article (which beats bill clinton standing outside a running plane and using the term genocide twenty times to refer to what happened in rwanda within a span of no more and perhaps less than ten minutes). already it has gotten a riled-up reaction, and questioning.
reading this article, i can`t really determine that shiraz`s views have changed all that much. it is certainly a lot more reasonable than past attempts. advocating that one read the qur`an and devour it is reading it as one would tolkien, or c. s. lewis, or faiz, ghalib or iqbal, is not necessarily a return. . . it is a continuing journey to a destination where shiraz will still meet with massive resistance. courage!
#44 Posted by Urstruly on July 30, 2005 8:16:36 pm
Re: # 30
I will answer your second question first. The verses contained in Chapter Al-Nisa (The Women) were revealed from 3rd year of Prophet Mohammad`s migration to medina and upto the early part of the fifth year. The exact date of verse 23 is not known for certainity but from ahadith and accounts of his life an approximate time period have been established, which I don`t know at this time. Please keep in mind that the sequence of verses in Qura`n are not arranged in chronological order but they have been arranged according to the instructions of Holy Prophet (pbuh). That is why it takes a little reaserch to establish the chronolgy.
As far as second question is concerned. I think by foster mother and foster sister, you mean a relationship that is established due to adoption. In Islam, to encourage the institution of adoption and to provide the love and care of the whole family, adoption does not establish any relationship between adoptee and the adopted. The adoptee does not have a right in inheritence and thus eliminates the competition from foster siblings. But accoding to the Islamic law of inhetritence each blood relationship has pre-ordained share from the two third of the estate and from the 1/3rd left over portion an adoptee may bequeth a part or whole of of that part to the adopted.
In short, upon puberty, the adopted has to be seprated from opposite sex of the household and a certain demeanor must be established among them just as one would maintain the demeanor between un-related man and woman as per Islamic values. So to address your question more directly an adopted can marry his or her foster parent or sibling.
#43 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2005 7:45:02 pm
Stinger_kh
Thanks. That is a great answer. A person who does not know and knows that he does not know is in a far better position than one who does not know and is so sure of his knowledge that he refuses to find out.
When Cowasjee explains, please listen to him with an open mind. He will tell you that Parsis do not worship the fire.
Thanks. That is a great answer. A person who does not know and knows that he does not know is in a far better position than one who does not know and is so sure of his knowledge that he refuses to find out.
When Cowasjee explains, please listen to him with an open mind. He will tell you that Parsis do not worship the fire.
#42 Posted by stinger_kh on July 30, 2005 7:40:04 pm
Re: # 41
i think they workship fire becoz GOD can be in any form of energy that is what i think i don`t know much about others. For few extra information about Parsi i have to contact Cowasjee for that.
i think they workship fire becoz GOD can be in any form of energy that is what i think i don`t know much about others. For few extra information about Parsi i have to contact Cowasjee for that.
#41 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2005 7:29:41 pm
Temporal ji
There was this Christian tract on how one must avoid cults. It offered a very simple definition of a cult: any religion that does not fully conform to the Word of Living God as available in the Christian Bible is a cult and dangerous.
There are understandings, and then there are understandings :)
There was this Christian tract on how one must avoid cults. It offered a very simple definition of a cult: any religion that does not fully conform to the Word of Living God as available in the Christian Bible is a cult and dangerous.
There are understandings, and then there are understandings :)
#40 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2005 7:14:21 pm
stinger_kh
I don`t think that people who belive in God have any sickness! That would be silly.
So, using that defintion, what is your and your friends` view of Parsis? Do Parsis worship the fire?
I don`t think that people who belive in God have any sickness! That would be silly.
So, using that defintion, what is your and your friends` view of Parsis? Do Parsis worship the fire?
#39 Posted by stinger_kh on July 30, 2005 7:10:43 pm
Re: # 37
worship : to treat somebody or something as divine and show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Its all there it all depends on u how u wanna take it.
worship : to treat somebody or something as divine and show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Its all there it all depends on u how u wanna take it.
#38 Posted by stinger_kh on July 30, 2005 7:01:13 pm
Re: # 36
I have read ur comments Sir and the rest of them here including urstruly,temporal & Ajeya. I have question here we all believe on GOD. But if u want to prove scientifically u can`t do that so my point is that those who believe on GOD are they having any mind sickness, accepting some thing true which don`t exist.
What ``deity`` is ????
I have read ur comments Sir and the rest of them here including urstruly,temporal & Ajeya. I have question here we all believe on GOD. But if u want to prove scientifically u can`t do that so my point is that those who believe on GOD are they having any mind sickness, accepting some thing true which don`t exist.
What ``deity`` is ????
#37 Posted by temporal on July 30, 2005 6:49:31 pm
kaalchakra sahib:
kyuN ghumana chah rahay hO humaiN?
aap ko bhi pata hay
aur hum ko bhi
(aur hum nay tO likh bhi diya hay saaf saaf in #32- aap PaRhaiN na paRhaiN -- aap samjhna chahaiN, na samjhna chahaiN - aap ki marzi)
have a nice weekend
t
kyuN ghumana chah rahay hO humaiN?
aap ko bhi pata hay
aur hum ko bhi
(aur hum nay tO likh bhi diya hay saaf saaf in #32- aap PaRhaiN na paRhaiN -- aap samjhna chahaiN, na samjhna chahaiN - aap ki marzi)
have a nice weekend
t
#36 Posted by KaalChakra on July 30, 2005 6:45:44 pm
All right, on a friendly note, let me help out here. We can go step by step.
Do Parsis worship the fire?
Do Parsis worship the fire?
#32 Posted by temporal on July 30, 2005 6:05:40 pm
mr. shah:
such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...
re: worship
i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication
and
i do not worship any stone..black or white
and
i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!
have a nice day, sir
t
such keh dooN aye b`rahmin gur tu bura na maaney...
re: worship
i worship my partner in crime M
i worship ghalib
i worship good articulation
i worship effective communication
and
i do not worship any stone..black or white
and
i do not pray to any of above...hope this helps!
have a nice day, sir
t
#31 Posted by teshah on July 30, 2005 5:18:36 pm
Re: # 19
``What is worship?``
A very pertinent question indeed! Do Muslims not worship the Black Stone (they call it by its Arabic name only, i.e., Hajre Aswad) as it was worshipped by the pagan Arabs before advent of Islam or as the Hindus worship `Shiv Ling` which is also a black stone, but not like the former falling from heaven, being the right hand of Allah, according to certain traditions. The traditions also say that the Prophet kissed it and prostrated before it.
It seems the man is by nature a worshipper of stone but why a black one at that. A Punjabi poet had said:
Pathar di pooja hondi ae ki kahbe ki but khane
Farq sirf ina ae ik gharhia ae ik unrhgharhia
(The `Stone` is worshipped whether it is Kahba or an idol house, the only difference being that one is carved and the other uncarved).
And the great Ghalib says:
Khaahish ko ehmaqon ne prastish dia qaraar
Kia poojta hoon us bute bedaadgar ko mein
As the Qurane Hakeem says, ``Have you seen those who have made their wishes their god.``
Again Josh Malihaabadi says:
Momin nah kare sajdah to muslim nah rahe
Aaarif jo kare sajda to kaafir ho jaae
The question raised by Kalachakra `What is worship?` is however still begging for answer as especially in Islam the only `apparent` worship is done only that of the `Black Stone`.
Will somebody enlighten us?