Towards a shackled society, perhaps
Omar R Quraishi July 20, 2005
#73 Posted by MantoLives on July 24, 2005 5:42:57 am
Shishapa,
I bring it up because one should know how and when these Mullahs actually came into the political fold ...
Mohar11,
The Mullah has always been an agent of the enemies of the broad interests of the Muslim community. We never claimed ot be speaking for Islam but Muslims then and now...
It is an internal struggle between the Mullah and the Progressives within Islam. The irony is that the so called ``secular`` non-Muslim forces have always tried to use the Mullahs against progressives... be it 1924, 1947, 1977 or 1981... be it Turkey, South Asia, be it
Egypt... be it any where else...
Nor is this phenomenon necessarily unique to ``Islamdom``. The extreme Orthodox Jews were the foremost opponents of Ben Gureon and progressive Jews who were trying to forward the interests of the Jewish community as a whole... today we Muslims use them shamelessly against Israel.
And... neither is it true that Mullah reigns supreme today in Pakistan... the Mullah will be rejected as he has always been rejected by the Muslim masses in the past.
I bring it up because one should know how and when these Mullahs actually came into the political fold ...
Mohar11,
The Mullah has always been an agent of the enemies of the broad interests of the Muslim community. We never claimed ot be speaking for Islam but Muslims then and now...
It is an internal struggle between the Mullah and the Progressives within Islam. The irony is that the so called ``secular`` non-Muslim forces have always tried to use the Mullahs against progressives... be it 1924, 1947, 1977 or 1981... be it Turkey, South Asia, be it
Egypt... be it any where else...
Nor is this phenomenon necessarily unique to ``Islamdom``. The extreme Orthodox Jews were the foremost opponents of Ben Gureon and progressive Jews who were trying to forward the interests of the Jewish community as a whole... today we Muslims use them shamelessly against Israel.
And... neither is it true that Mullah reigns supreme today in Pakistan... the Mullah will be rejected as he has always been rejected by the Muslim masses in the past.
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#72 Posted by mohar11 on July 23, 2005 12:52:29 pm
Re: # 71
//....Why bring it up so many time? ...//
Because - mullha and his ideology is what reigns supreme in land of pure these days. Islam is what resonates with pakis. Jihad has become corner-stone of societal discourse.
people like YLH are now like fish out of water. They have been kowtowing to islam for a long time to fullfil their own agendas and unknowingly have gone beyond point of no return. They are flopping around wildly to get some traction to steer the ship away - but there is no traction - nobody is listening to them.
That`s why the belated desperate attempt to beat up on the mullah, try to discredit him - but it`s too late. Mullha has grown too big, too resourceful and too powerful. Mullah has taken ``The Ideology`` to its logical conclusion and sooner rather later, mullah is going to hijack the nation.
Paki elite has been caught in their own web - the cynical exploitation of religion has come full circle. YLH has no other recourse but to impotently hit out at the mullah. And the mullah is having the last laugh :)))
//....Why bring it up so many time? ...//
Because - mullha and his ideology is what reigns supreme in land of pure these days. Islam is what resonates with pakis. Jihad has become corner-stone of societal discourse.
people like YLH are now like fish out of water. They have been kowtowing to islam for a long time to fullfil their own agendas and unknowingly have gone beyond point of no return. They are flopping around wildly to get some traction to steer the ship away - but there is no traction - nobody is listening to them.
That`s why the belated desperate attempt to beat up on the mullah, try to discredit him - but it`s too late. Mullha has grown too big, too resourceful and too powerful. Mullah has taken ``The Ideology`` to its logical conclusion and sooner rather later, mullah is going to hijack the nation.
Paki elite has been caught in their own web - the cynical exploitation of religion has come full circle. YLH has no other recourse but to impotently hit out at the mullah. And the mullah is having the last laugh :)))
#71 Posted by shishapa on July 23, 2005 12:08:29 pm
Re # 69
``The greatest irony in Pakistan is that these Mullah fools of the MMA, most of who (with the exception of Late Noorani`s party which actually has opposed the Hasba Bill in its present form) opposed the creation of Pakistan tooth and nail, present themselves as the final arbiters of its ideology on a national level.``
How long are you going to hold this against them? Are they still
opposed to the creation of Pakistan? It was probably their fathers and
grandfatthers who opposed the creation of Pakistan, they did not.
Why bring it up so many time?
#70 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2005 10:25:39 am
Manto:
Thanks. Am I correct in interpreting it as a reference rather than a challenge in the Supreme Court?
Thanks. Am I correct in interpreting it as a reference rather than a challenge in the Supreme Court?
#69 Posted by MantoLives on July 23, 2005 9:07:13 am
Omar R Quraishi..
A brilliant article...
The greatest irony in Pakistan is that these Mullah fools of the MMA, most of who (with the exception of Late Noorani`s party which actually has opposed the Hasba Bill in its present form) opposed the creation of Pakistan tooth and nail, present themselves as the final arbiters of its ideology on a national level.
Dost Mittar,
The questions raised in the reference against the Bill are:
(i) Whether the Hisba Bill or any of its provisions, would be constitutionally invalid if enacted?
(ii) Whether the Hisba Bill or any of its provisions, would, if enacted, be violative of the fundamental rights guaranteed in Part-II, Chapter I of the Constitution, including but not limited to Articles 9, 14, 16 to 20, 22 and 25 thereof?
(iii) Whether the Hisba Bill or any of its provisions would, if enacted, be violative of Articles 2A, 4, 203G, 212, 229 and 230 of the Constitution?
(iv) Whether the enactment of the Hisba Bill would encroach on an occupied field, violate the Constitution by creating a parallel judicial system, undermine judicial independence and deny citizens their right of access to justice?
(v) Whether the enactment of the Hisba Bill would violate the principle of separation of powers enshrined in the Constitution?
((vi) Whether the Hisba Bill, and in particular Sections 10 and 23 thereof, is unconstitutionally overboard and vague and suffers from excessive delegation?
(vii) If the answer of any one or more of the above questions is in the affirmative, whether the Governor, NWFP is obliged to sign into law the Hisba Bill passed by the NWFP Assembly?
The constitution of 1973 can be accessed here: http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/
A brilliant article...
The greatest irony in Pakistan is that these Mullah fools of the MMA, most of who (with the exception of Late Noorani`s party which actually has opposed the Hasba Bill in its present form) opposed the creation of Pakistan tooth and nail, present themselves as the final arbiters of its ideology on a national level.
Dost Mittar,
The questions raised in the reference against the Bill are:
(i) Whether the Hisba Bill or any of its provisions, would be constitutionally invalid if enacted?
(ii) Whether the Hisba Bill or any of its provisions, would, if enacted, be violative of the fundamental rights guaranteed in Part-II, Chapter I of the Constitution, including but not limited to Articles 9, 14, 16 to 20, 22 and 25 thereof?
(iii) Whether the Hisba Bill or any of its provisions would, if enacted, be violative of Articles 2A, 4, 203G, 212, 229 and 230 of the Constitution?
(iv) Whether the enactment of the Hisba Bill would encroach on an occupied field, violate the Constitution by creating a parallel judicial system, undermine judicial independence and deny citizens their right of access to justice?
(v) Whether the enactment of the Hisba Bill would violate the principle of separation of powers enshrined in the Constitution?
((vi) Whether the Hisba Bill, and in particular Sections 10 and 23 thereof, is unconstitutionally overboard and vague and suffers from excessive delegation?
(vii) If the answer of any one or more of the above questions is in the affirmative, whether the Governor, NWFP is obliged to sign into law the Hisba Bill passed by the NWFP Assembly?
The constitution of 1973 can be accessed here: http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/
#68 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2005 7:39:23 am
omar saheb:
Do you know which section of the constitution does the Hasba bill violate? (This is not a rhetorical question!).
`baba` dost-mittar
Do you know which section of the constitution does the Hasba bill violate? (This is not a rhetorical question!).
`baba` dost-mittar
#67 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on July 23, 2005 6:17:25 am
well dost mittar sahib yes, prob sitting outside of pakistan (i would be fair in presuming that i hope), you did miss the protests -- as for the constitution having something to prevent this from being implemented, as i pointed out earlier, that is how the federal govt (president to be precise) has chosen to invoke the jurisdiction of the supreme court -- as you must be aware of i am sure, such principles hold true in most countries, and im sure even in india (like the US, which I know for a fact) federal law can override provincial or local law
#66 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2005 5:31:19 am
Omar:
The only protests that I have read about are by a handful of intellectuals and a christian group. If there have been any mass demonstrations, I have missed them.
You are right that there were no protests when Nawaz Sharif was thrown out, which also shows that the man with the ``massive mandate`` had lost popular support by then.
My main point is that if you want to protect some core values, then you need a constitution to protect those values. If there is something in the Hasba bill against the constitution, and you would know that better, it would still be rejected, wouldn`t it?
The only protests that I have read about are by a handful of intellectuals and a christian group. If there have been any mass demonstrations, I have missed them.
You are right that there were no protests when Nawaz Sharif was thrown out, which also shows that the man with the ``massive mandate`` had lost popular support by then.
My main point is that if you want to protect some core values, then you need a constitution to protect those values. If there is something in the Hasba bill against the constitution, and you would know that better, it would still be rejected, wouldn`t it?
#65 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2005 10:09:18 pm
cayenne #45
`` Harmonising the Indo-Pak equation is key to moderating the Muslim world
SAEED NAQVI ``
While Mr Naqvi is entitled to this views nothing could further from reality. Pakistan or Pakistanis are in position to dictate politics in the Muslim World. The trajectories of Indonesia, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are dictated by internal trends in those state. All these states are equally or more important than Pakistan.
`` Harmonising the Indo-Pak equation is key to moderating the Muslim world
SAEED NAQVI ``
While Mr Naqvi is entitled to this views nothing could further from reality. Pakistan or Pakistanis are in position to dictate politics in the Muslim World. The trajectories of Indonesia, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are dictated by internal trends in those state. All these states are equally or more important than Pakistan.
#64 Posted by Romair on July 22, 2005 10:09:08 pm
correction #63: ``One should keep in mind that, circa 1990, Pakistan had one of the lowest poverty rates at 18%, in Asia.``
should read,
One should keep in mind that, circa 1990, Pakistan had one of the lowest poverty rates at 18%, in South Asia.
should read,
One should keep in mind that, circa 1990, Pakistan had one of the lowest poverty rates at 18%, in South Asia.
#63 Posted by Romair on July 22, 2005 10:03:03 pm
Anil #52: ``Why would someone who does not personally like Hasba bill, as Romair has said, yet he would support for its acceptance. This statement is difficult to understand.``
I am not making the argument for myself. My priorities for Pakistan are quite clear. I support good governance, over anything and everything, including religion, secularism or democracy. Specifically, I support govts. which reduce the level of poverty. After fifteen years of rising poverty, Pakistan, last year, finally brought 5 million people out of poverty, i.e. it has turned the economic corner. One should keep in mind that, circa 1990, Pakistan had one of the lowest poverty rates at 18%, in Asia. Now it is at 33%.
My argument for letting the Hasba Bill through, was aimed at individuals who argue that democracy at all costs is the only way to go for Pakistan. Such individuals cannot, on the one hand, support democracy and on the other hand oppose it if it doesn`t suit them........
Your comments on the judiciary are correct. However, the judiciary in Pakistan is not free. It has never been free. It has been raided by Benazir, NS and Musharraf. Which is why I consider all three to be dictators.
From purely a democracy-based view, the Hasba Bill was part of the MMA manifesto. And the people voted the MMA into power in NWFP. After that, it is the NWFP Assembly`s choice, on what it wants to do in NWFP. If it approves a Bill, it should become the law. It can be challenged in the Supreme Court legally (assuming the Court is not pressurised). However, Musharraf could influence the Supreme Court......
Hasba Bill will not see the light of day in Punjab and Sind. These two provinces have populations which do not believe in such bills. However, NWFP and Baluchistan are very conservative. I don`t think they would mind things like the Hasba Bill. However, I oppose it, because it will be misused.........But my argument of opposing it is not based on democracy......It is based on good governance...........
I am not making the argument for myself. My priorities for Pakistan are quite clear. I support good governance, over anything and everything, including religion, secularism or democracy. Specifically, I support govts. which reduce the level of poverty. After fifteen years of rising poverty, Pakistan, last year, finally brought 5 million people out of poverty, i.e. it has turned the economic corner. One should keep in mind that, circa 1990, Pakistan had one of the lowest poverty rates at 18%, in Asia. Now it is at 33%.
My argument for letting the Hasba Bill through, was aimed at individuals who argue that democracy at all costs is the only way to go for Pakistan. Such individuals cannot, on the one hand, support democracy and on the other hand oppose it if it doesn`t suit them........
Your comments on the judiciary are correct. However, the judiciary in Pakistan is not free. It has never been free. It has been raided by Benazir, NS and Musharraf. Which is why I consider all three to be dictators.
From purely a democracy-based view, the Hasba Bill was part of the MMA manifesto. And the people voted the MMA into power in NWFP. After that, it is the NWFP Assembly`s choice, on what it wants to do in NWFP. If it approves a Bill, it should become the law. It can be challenged in the Supreme Court legally (assuming the Court is not pressurised). However, Musharraf could influence the Supreme Court......
Hasba Bill will not see the light of day in Punjab and Sind. These two provinces have populations which do not believe in such bills. However, NWFP and Baluchistan are very conservative. I don`t think they would mind things like the Hasba Bill. However, I oppose it, because it will be misused.........But my argument of opposing it is not based on democracy......It is based on good governance...........
#62 Posted by CheGuevara on July 22, 2005 5:18:13 pm
Re: # 59
Exactly, the mullahs were brought into prominence by the army and the glorious fauj uses them whenever their position seems to be in threat. This is an attempt to present himself as the moderate option for the goras (entire coincidence I`m sure that this whole fuss was created roughly around the period proceeding those human dhamakas in vilayet) maybe everyone will now realise how evil democracy really is.
Exactly, the mullahs were brought into prominence by the army and the glorious fauj uses them whenever their position seems to be in threat. This is an attempt to present himself as the moderate option for the goras (entire coincidence I`m sure that this whole fuss was created roughly around the period proceeding those human dhamakas in vilayet) maybe everyone will now realise how evil democracy really is.
#61 Posted by southasian on July 22, 2005 3:17:49 pm
Two great secularists of the subcontinent (Nehru and Jinnah) divided the country on the basis of .. guess what? religion. Deobandies whose children these Mullahs are opposed partition. Our Hindutva parties still dream of an Akhand Bharat. So whatever our Deobandi nationalists do in their present abode should not be seen through a partition prism.
To add to the subcontinental spice a dictator is more tolerant than MMA democrats. Personally I feel that a brute majority in a democracy is more dangerous than an even an autocracy sometimes.
To add to the subcontinental spice a dictator is more tolerant than MMA democrats. Personally I feel that a brute majority in a democracy is more dangerous than an even an autocracy sometimes.
#60 Posted by mohar11 on July 22, 2005 3:14:23 pm
Re: # 58 raw
//...the so-called secularists are very ``professional`` about how to spin things much like the self-appointed El-Presidente...//
Yep - now they are caught in their own web - and they don`t know how to spin out of this jam :) I mean, blaming hindus works up to a point - right?
Paki elite has always tried to be too clever by half. And that did work for quite a while. But apparently not any more. Islam is finally knocking at the door and these guys have no idea what to do. Sooner or later they would have to open the door - the Destiny has arrived.
All I can say to pakis is - Enjoy. You asked for it!!
//...the so-called secularists are very ``professional`` about how to spin things much like the self-appointed El-Presidente...//
Yep - now they are caught in their own web - and they don`t know how to spin out of this jam :) I mean, blaming hindus works up to a point - right?
Paki elite has always tried to be too clever by half. And that did work for quite a while. But apparently not any more. Islam is finally knocking at the door and these guys have no idea what to do. Sooner or later they would have to open the door - the Destiny has arrived.
All I can say to pakis is - Enjoy. You asked for it!!
#59 Posted by mohar11 on July 22, 2005 2:54:55 pm
Re: # 57
//....should be rejected by whoever has the constitutional authority to do so...//
What ``constitutional authority``? You guys are going on and on about constitutional authority, supreme court or whatever - as if there is a Jeffersonian Democracy going on in pakistan!!
In pakistan - What Mushy thinks, Mushy does.......It all depends on what Mushy wants to do....... Mullahs could`nt have come this far with the bill, without Mushy`s tacit approval. Mushy will do some gymnastics for his foreign masters and that will be that....... In all likelihood - hasba bill will go thru and people of pakistan will be a step closer to have the promised pure land.
Halleluiah!!!
//....should be rejected by whoever has the constitutional authority to do so...//
What ``constitutional authority``? You guys are going on and on about constitutional authority, supreme court or whatever - as if there is a Jeffersonian Democracy going on in pakistan!!
In pakistan - What Mushy thinks, Mushy does.......It all depends on what Mushy wants to do....... Mullahs could`nt have come this far with the bill, without Mushy`s tacit approval. Mushy will do some gymnastics for his foreign masters and that will be that....... In all likelihood - hasba bill will go thru and people of pakistan will be a step closer to have the promised pure land.
Halleluiah!!!
#58 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 22, 2005 2:44:06 pm
southasian:
``One is the test of democracy.``
Pakistan has democracy? That is a news to me.
mohar11:
the so-called secularists are very ``professional`` about how to spin things much like the self-appointed El-Presidente.
``One is the test of democracy.``
Pakistan has democracy? That is a news to me.
mohar11:
the so-called secularists are very ``professional`` about how to spin things much like the self-appointed El-Presidente.
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