South Asia’s Clarence Darrow

correction to 153:

``although there are at least some Indian Muslims like you who are sympathetic to their cause even though it is clearly against their own self-interest.``

should have read:


although there are at least some Indian Muslims like you who are sympathetic to Muslim Kashmiris` cause even though it is clearly against their own self-interest.

hindvi#150:

``so when muslims are cleansed from jaffna for being pro govt. by hindu tamils it is because they marched to a different drum, when hindus are leaving the valley because they were pro govt it is because muslims are jihadis and fundamentalists.``

It is not hindu kashmiris who are marching to a different drum, they, christians, sikhs and buddhists are all marching to the same drummer, it is the muslims who are marching to a different drummer.

Frankly, I hate LTTE even more if they have ethnically cleansed Muslims [As I said I am not very knowledgeable on that aspect of LTTE]. But any comparison with Kashmir is totally invalid. Unlike christians actively supporting LTTE, no non-muslim supports Kashmiri separatitst. Tamils do not raise slogans in the name of Hindu religion; they do not have any Hindu supporters in India with the possible exception of some fellow Tamils; although there are at least some Indian Muslims like you who are sympathetic to their cause even though it is clearly against their own self-interest.

what drum to the Kurds in syria, Iraq and Turkey march to?

They are marching to the same drummer that Bangladeshis did. There is no ``islam khatre mein`` to keep them in line.

Rsridhar, {``#123 in response to #116 by Salim_Chauhan
(Have you forgotten the lesson of the Pandawas? Did the brothers not agree to share Draupatti? How can you be so selfishly inclined? ...)
That was a good one.
BTW, i apologise for my past remarks about the nic that u had assumed. I would not have done it had i known u better. Still, it was stupid of me.
Sridhar``}

Sridhar,
Thanks for the kind remark. I am glad that you understand that I took refuge under a nic similar to yours because of your good nature, hospitality, and friendly attitude. Thanks for the help. Besides, your nic is kind of cool. :)
rsriBhar. :)

hindvi#149:

Put a label and end the argument. Beautiful!

[btw I took your word about Muslim tamils, someone better informed than me may throw greater light on the subject]

#148:

This is substantial and I can respond. When I said that the proportion of Muslims in India is now the same as it was in the pre-partition India, it was factual. The holocaust in Punjabi-speaking districts of East Punjab was just as severe as in West Punjab. However, the loss has been made up by the higher population growth of Muslims in other parts of India and illegal migration; now the proportion of Muslims is the same as it was in India before the partition in areas excluding Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Yes, many Muslims were forced out of their homes from Jammu, but it still has a large percentage of Muslim population. Overall, in the Indian Jammu and Kashmir, the proportion of Muslims has not declined, unlike in Azad Kashmir where the only sikh-hindu survivors are those who converted to Islam.

I am a stout defender of Muslims as citizens in India, Canada and elsewhere but I have difficulty accepting Islam to be a religion of peace and tolerance. Once again, I make a difference between the religion and people. Most Indian and Pakistani Muslims, including Kashmiri Muslims, are a very decent, peaceful and tolerant people until Islam is invoked.

so when muslims are cleansed from jaffna for being pro govt. by hindu tamils it is because they marched to a different drum, when hindus are leaving the valley because they were pro govt it is because muslims are jihadis and fundamentalists.

what drum to the Kurds in syria, Iraq and Turkey march to?

``As for LTTE I do not support them. But their movement is ethnic/linguist. If Muslims there too are behaving more like Muslims and less like Tamils, it just proves my point that Muslims march to a different drummer.``

Dost Mittar you are a communalist like most shanarthis without knowning that the muslims of Sri lanka were perceived as progovt. by the LTTE you pronounced your communal judgement on them.

I will analyse the folowing statements of yours:

``Your parallel with Anglo-Indians is completely invalid. Kashmiri pandits are the oldest inhabitants of the valley`` then what are muslims? aliens from Saudi Arabia?

`` if there are any products of non-kashmiris (e.g., Afghans) and kashmiris, they are most likely to be muslims.`` why not sikhs?

``And some ango-Indians did support the freedom movement and they have not been ethnically cleansed from independent India,`` but the vast majority of them did leave India after independence for australia and other sundry places and if the claim is that some remained then so did some Kashmiri pandits in the valley.


``...... unlike sikh-hindu kashmiris from Azad Kashmir or Pakistan.``
Firstly you providing incorrect info on this site like claiming that the population of muslims was back to the same percentages in the parts that are India today to what it was before partition, the percentage of muslims in east punjab, haryana, Delhi and bordering districts of rajasthan and UP are no where close to where they were before partition, muslim majority districts and areas like Ferozepur, Faridabad, dehli sadar, daryaganj, mehrauli, tughlakabad and many more muslim majority and minority areas from jalandar, patiala and ludhiana tohissar, panipat, bharatpur,gurgaon and other areas of jats and mewatis were cleaned out the option was rape/death, conversion or exile sometimes more than one of the two. none of these areas are anywhere close to their prepartition percentages of mulsims.

Mosques were turned into stables and temples and their women were kidnapped.

Secondly what happened in muzzafarabad and Mirpur was at the time of partition no refugees emerged from there after 1948 and the happeneings were mirrored by what happened in Jammu. In jammu muslims were in a majority in the rural areas, the city had a small non muslim majority, but once the refugees started pouring into Jammu and kashmir (including Muzzafarabad) from the punjab and the north west frontier the dogra security forces of the Maharaja combined with the right wing hindu sabhas and sikhs started disarming muslim soldiers and massacring villagers, thousands were killed and tens of thousands driven out, this was mirrored on the other side by the muslim leaguers and ex punjabi army men, (a large number of whom were from this area) this was what precipitated the tribal invasion as well as the muslim militias asked for help against the security forces.

hindvi:

You are saying things that I have said and criticised too in the past. But none of this really disproves that this is an islamist separatist movement - none of the other several groups of Kashmiris - dogras, pandits, buddhists, sikhs or christians want to separate; it would be different if the movement was supported by everyone except hindus - it`s the two-nation theory all over again - none of the other groups in India - sikhs, christians, buddhists, parsees, jains, jews, pagans or anyone else wanted a separate nation. Abdullah rigged elections even before he was prisoned and when he was pro-India.

As for LTTE I do not support them. But their movement is ethnic/linguist. If Muslims there too are behaving more like Muslims and less like Tamils, it just proves my point that Muslims march to a different drummer.

Re: # 136
There were many Anglos who supported India`s freedom, in fact they played a major role in convincing their masters to let India be free.

Dost Mittar

As long as sheikh abdullah was talking of Indian union he was a hero, the moment he started equivocating he was put in prison for over two decades. longer than Nehru and Gandhi combined! All through the 50s and 60s and early 70s elections were rigged.

Only in the late 70s when an old and ailing Sheikh had agreed to compromise was he released from prison that too when he agreed to mrs gandhi`s terms! Indian showed a far more brutal attitude towards the Kashmiris than the british govt towards the indian leaders, wether the british did out of the fear of a humongous Indian population or their policies of moderation is another issue.

the elections of the late 70s were the only free elections in Kashmir`s history because again in the early 80s when the young farooq showed some independence inclinations the elections were rigged. Again in the elections of the late 80s as it seemed the pro independence guys would win the govt rigged the elections, infact sayed salahuddin the hizb leader stood in those elections (and was apparently leading in the vote count when he was tipped about being picked up by the security forces).

with rampant extra judicial murderss and incustody deaths and tortures who in Kashmir will lead a peaceful separation movement ?

can one then blame the kashmiris for picking up the gun?

Hindians are bleeding from insurgency in Kashmir. It is weak and poor. Kashmir banega Pakistan!!! Mark the word.

142 is not by me there is some error by chowk staff

...they always bite at the token muslim jibe...truth usually gets that reaction...;)

arstoo...if you had to quote an urdu poet you should have made sure it is choR
and not chord...and this is hilarious Aur mujhay zhara ka jaam peena pada..hahahahah...apparently,an indian website screwing the beauty of urdu language...;)


BTW...no one has explained why not a single indian muslim was found from 150 million indian muslims to offer his views on the happy day...;)

shankar#138``

You are a changed person from the old shankar that we knew so well.

I am not prepared to accept any criticism from Pakistanis wrt human rights in India. But since when have you started thinking that this should be India`s benchmark? The only benchmark India has to live up to is its constitution; as for Kashmiris, India has adopted neither a moral posture nor realpolitik. On moral basis, it should fulfil its promist to Kashmiris; on the basis of realpolitik, it should abolish article 370 of its constitution and encourage a change in its demographics like it has been done by Pakistanis in Azad Kashmir and China in Tibet. It should resolve the problem one way or another. Otherwise, it`s a case of:

Na khuda hi mila, na vasal-e-sanam,
Na idhar ke rahe, na udhar ke rahe.
[for urdu-challenged, it means lbw!]

By the way LTTE did ethnically cleanse muslims from Jaffna, killing thousands and transporting them out, what to speak of the buddhist sinhala

hindvi#137:

As for rigged elections, you are preaching to the converted. I have on numerous occasions strongly criticised Indians for that. But this is because even Abdullah was not sure that he could win a fair election and had them thoroughly rigged. He had his pulse on the people and thought that his followers would not support him. Yes, even a completely secular Nehru did not trust Kashmiri Muslims which is why he went back on his promises. What does that tell you?

As for JKLF not wanting a theocratic state, neither did Jinnah. If all sikh-hindus were driven out of Kashmir that did become Azad, why would any hindu kashmiri with an IQ of at least room temperature think that his fate would be any different from those of sikh-hindus in Azad Kashmir or Pakistan?

Your parallel with Anglo-Indians is completely invalid. Kashmiri pandits are the oldest inhabitants of the valley; if there are any products of non-kashmiris (e.g., Afghans) and kashmiris, they are most likely to be muslims. And some ango-Indians did support the freedom movement and they have not been ethnically cleansed from independent India, unlike sikh-hindu kashmiris from Azad Kashmir.