How green is their valley?

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FV #224
``... Chowk staff:

I am glad you are now taking a pro-active role. I would also like you to clarify that you are not a Pakistani site not because it is a matter of nationalism, but this is about South Asia…those who wish to live on islands will do so anyway.

Thank you…``

A couple of points
The sketch used to describe Chowk (Chowk Illustrations) at the top-right , shows a chowk, ie intersection of roads. And whats at the intersection, a glass bulb with map of Pakistan. I request the Chowk staff to replace this map of pakistan with map of South Asia so that its clear that its not about pakistan alone.

And regarding taking snipes about people who wish to live in islands, whats wrong with people living in islands?
The way you say bombay is yr city and have concern for it first before anything else (writing all that poem etc) shows that you are also living on an island.

What happened to bombay this year happens every year at some place or other across the globe, but I don`t see you breaking into a stenchful poem for them.

I will be eagerly waiting for the chowk staff to change the logo. Don`t say what`s in a picture?

This dormant board is showing certain signs of active life again.

#224 FarzanaVersey
[This is why you will not see me changing my stand on a board several times, you will not see me asking others to confirm any suspicions, and you will not see me seeking the opinions of others about whether I should stay on…]

Although this author continues to direct her remarks to Neptune, it’s fairly obvious she is referring to my remarks in #222. I have EVERY right to ask my fellow chowkies for their opinions – I don’t need this author’s approval to do that (what is this, first she starts asking people to go to deeply-buried boards when the opinions do not suit her and now she starts grabbing dictatorial powers for herself?) I also have every right to stay on as a perpetual apparition or I can scram when it pleases my fancy – based on exactly what I decide to do – not on what others tell me to do – or hint me to do (the latter course, as this author does)!

Regarding this whole issue of knighthood – I would like to remind this author that in real life, there are no knights or villains – just people. And real people do not have clairvoyant powers – they can not see that a person could be marooned on a flooded island (overloaded under buckets of water (the “weight of water” can indeed be VERY heavy)) and it’s entirely possible to think that such a person is simply cowering like a scared little wet cat inside a secret cave – hiding from unfriendly sticks – and a bit of helping hand to bail out the poor cat may be just the compassionate thing to do. (I personally never liked the book “101 ways to skin a cat”.)

Regarding changing my stand several times – I would like to remind this author that I have taken a vow to NEVER suffer from that great malady that virtually all chowkies are chronic patients of (especially HER) – that malady of intransigence. I would like to refresh her memory (which seems to have been wiped out due to the devastating deluge) by referring her to an earlier i-log I wrote (then deleted, of course) – which was entitled “To Sir, With Love”. I will be happy to reproduce it here, if necessary (and if I can locate it myself)!

Suffice it to say – people who are open to the opinions and views of others are the reasonable people of the world – who retain an ability to grow intellectually – and who contribute to advancing the state of knowledge and understanding. As a corollary, it’s also fair to conclude that those who don’t – they just don’t have that ability – i.e., their growth gets stunted – they sit immobile – like a boulder – crying on shoulder – getting colder!

FV:
``I notice that s/he has not interacted here at all, contributed zilch to the discussion. suppose some people do like a good fight.``

And:

I did run a search, and these figures were mentioned in a few places

I am under no obligation to meet your expectations of what you think is a ``contribution to a discussion``. The points i had in mind regarding this piece were hammered out by many interactors here quite effectively. The point about the sources seemed unanswered and hence, my query. You failed to provide those other sources. It is alright. Dont get too worked up over nothing.

have a good one.

Oops - a mistake

I have done a search and following were numbers I found. You can also search for these numbers yourself.


from 1986 till 2004
Hindus killed - 15124
Muslims killed - 2021
Total deaths due to violence - 17045

It indicates almost 5 hindu getting killed every day.

How do you explain that?

FV
I have done a search and following were numbers I found - from 1986 till 2004
Hindus killed - 15124
Muslims killed - 2023
Total deaths due to voilence - 17047

It indicates almost 5 hindu getting killed every day.

How do you explain that?

Re: # 225

You run your own search and give me your figures, and respond to the points I have raised in my posts. Don`t worry about my credibility. That`s my concern.

And to the other person who has joined you on my new board, I notice that s/he has not interacted here at all, contributed zilch to the discussion. I suppose some people do like a good fight. Best wishes for the huddle.

I am not trying to convert you to my point of view; you cannot even try that because you have no point of view...all you can come up with are responses, and one single thread of questions...

I have said all I have to say in the article and the posts. Take it or leave it.

Fine...If you did a search and found the same numbers in ``a few places``, you should be able to post the websites you got the numbers from.

The source of your information speaks volumes about your credibility. you wouldn`t get a count of jews killed in the holocaust from a aryan nations website, would you?

I am here not to explain myself – my views spell that out clearly enough and I am not retracting them. For, no one here has stood out with valid arguments, no one has answered a single query posed in my post #93…the last few replies have been a complete waste of energy because the emphasis is on the writer even as the attempt has been to analyse the writing. I have nothing to say to that.

What I do wish to talk about is this…

[Where did you get the figures for the casualties? From a website based in Pakiland?]

This must rate as a complete cuckoo query. Since most people here have decided where my sympathies lie, I would be truly naïve to rush to a Pak site to get info. I did run a search, and these figures were mentioned in a few places. I do not see any reason to doubt them. The moot point was (and continues to be even if the figures change) that people are still being killed. So, who are they? Are they not local Muslims too?

And, to take a kinder view towards some absolutely nonsensical stuff, when you go to interview people you do not carry your portfolio with you. Most people want to tell their stories. The fact is that I have censored certain quotes that might show some people in not too good a light, and I have not published the picture of the lady although she posed for me.

There are some people here who are terribly concerned about the ‘truth’. Here is a sample of their lies…

[If Imrana gets raped by her father-in-law than she cries that it is a hindu conspiracy.
If that girl witness in Gujarat riot case retracts her case due to some greed or threat than it is a hindu conspiracy. If Akshardham happens than it is a hindu conspiracy, and if Ayndhya happens than it is a hindu conspiracy. If Abhimanyu or some other Indian officer on patrol is kidnapped and killed by Jehadis than it is a hindu conspiracy and if Indian forces than retaliate and destroy Jehadi bunkers than it is a problem for her.]

Talk of being selective and misleading…will they furbish me with eveidence for each one of those?
- - -
I am really not worried about my credibility. I may not make the right noises or sounds many of you want to hear, but these are my opinions and my conviction. Instead of nit-picking and questioning, try to answer some of the issues I have raised and repeated in my posts. There has been deafening silence on that.

It is the anonymous people here who need to prove their credentials. Opposing me only reveals their opposite agenda, not a balanced perspective! As for my so-called cohorts and knights, I look for neither. This is why you will not see me changing my stand on a board several times, you will not see me asking others to confirm any suspicions, and you will not see me seeking the opinions of others about whether I should stay on…
- - -
And then we have Mr. Ajay Raina, who says, “But, why are you silent now about receiving all the flak you much deserved. If you want to take on a kashmiri pandit one to one, here I am on. BUT ATLEAST MAKE SOME SENSE. Ok. lets have it!”

When I gave my email address it wasn’t a desperate need for a one to one; it was to emphasise that I was ready to see another point of view, as opposed to the lip sympathy easily available here. Obviously, you are more interested in the flak. As one who has been around here for a while, let me tell you this flak is not based on any reasoning; it has been there for long and is as illogical as I am accused of being.

Re. your “full” letter, it was not addressed to me. I do not use names of people in my articles unless they are on a public forum or have personally interacted with me. Besides, I had already visited the Delhi camp, so the article would have been written with or without your quotes.

The article is factually correct (except if people here insist on some figures being wrong). If you are in denial, I cannot do anything about it.

About “dubious intent” etc. and why did I not say this or that, I am not here to tell you things you want to hear, but to say things I want to say. I have already stated that I would like to read the other perspective. I won’t stoop so low as to talk about “at least make some sense” (and I will avoid excessive use of capital letters too…screaming is rather gauche, in my opinion…) but you have got out of answering the questions I raised.

I won’t hold you or anyone to that…it is a choice you make. For me it is only a way to forward discussion, if and when it needs to, not a ruse to bait someone.
- - -
The self-importance some people assume for themselves here is truly embarrassing. Find other ways to express your love…
- - -
Chowk staff:

I am glad you are now taking a pro-active role. I would also like you to clarify that you are not a Pakistani site not because it is a matter of nationalism, but this is about South Asia…those who wish to live on islands will do so anyway.

Thank you…

#222 by BeeJay

I (and I assume many other Chowkies) have always admired your piercing comments and in-your-face analysis. By leaving Chowk, you will only hasten its decline. We need people more like you. If you leave, who will clean up Chowk, since you are the only janitor around? ;-)

#221 Kaalchakra:

(An open note to Kaal:)

Kaal, you have been watching/reading my interacts – like you read everybody else’s. You probably have a very good idea of what I am about, how I think, and perhaps even why I think and interact in certain ways. I need some candid advice from you. As time passes on, my disappointment level with Chowk, its writers, and interactors (of a certain type) keeps going up.

With this Chowk crowd – especially with the string-pullers (the Sutradhars) being the way they are, is there even any point in somebody like me hanging around here?

You can let me know here (on this board) or via e-mail (cd.lion@gmail.com).

Thanks, Kaal.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Thank you, Sir.

Re: # 218

Sure Kaal, I have time. Do send me your comments..

I`d take your advise and refrain from responding..

googly

I just noticed you claim to be a Buddhist. Given that some people consider deceiving others a religious duty, you could very well be not telling the truth.

But out of sheer respect for Buddhism, and for the name of the Great Buddha, I will be honored to engage in any discussion with you anywhere else. A buddhist does not deceive. A buddhist does not aim to throw genuine conversations off track. A buddhist, above all, is an honorable human being.

I am currenly in the process of learning about Thai Buddhism.

Let`s take our conversation elsewhere. If you are a Buddhist, you will understand that you have all my respect, but also why I, and hopefully others soon, will not engage in further discussion with you here.

masan

By the way, I do have some genuine ideas to bounce off you off-chowk, if you kindly will. Please let me know if you would be able to spare any time. Thanks.

Dear masan

You would surely understand that googly/dalit`s interest is not in the CONTENT of your discussion but your mere ENGAGEMENT in discussion with him/them.

The self-declared purpose is to throw another genuine debate and discussion off track.

You might feel you make ALL the sense and even feel you beat/convinced the gentleman, but his purpose will be served if ``throws you off track`` from the existing discussion.

This is a very old deception. Some poeple argue that there is a clear religious association to this deceptive behavior.

You and I can only understand this behavior. We cannot argue with it. We will never be able to talk anyone out of it - unless the light shines within the person on Its own.

---

May I request you and Ajey and everyone else to let the gentleman/men play his/their game alone, or with his/their soul mates. Let`s get back to the discussion on hand.

That and only that will be the way to beat/convince the gentleman/men.

Re: # 215

I think you are a legitimate poster...

I`m not into talks like ``vedanta/advaita`` etc.. It`s way over my head.. I`ll get into it once I have time and when I grow old.. :-))

I compare religions/cults by how it treats the non-believers of those religions/cults.. No one (that I know of) knows what Hinduism is other than the mumbo-jumo prayers they recite in case of auspicious occasions/ weddings / in temples.. Seriously 90% of the people don`t know what they are doing. They assume it`s something good..

Because there is no clear cut definition (like the 5 pillars in Islam / or belief in the son of god as in christianity) I don`t know who is a Hindu or who is not a Hindu. I ridicule Hindu gods/priests with my religious friends and the main reason I goto a temple (though rarely) is to see good looking women in sarees. I guess that is not blasphemy and no one would condemn me to death. :-)). Still I believe people think of me as a Hindu. I have no problem with that..

I use this ``tolerance scale`` on religions to compare what is better in the current times. We all know that how tolerant ``Islam`` is for the apostates. I`m sure majority of the people are pleasant and calm and that includes atheists/Muslims/Christians/Jews/etc.. But the ideology and how it is practised now, is what you should look at. If you have time, read their ``holy book``. You`ll find the source of my dislike..

>>>Hope you`re a legitimate poster, talk to a few ``Dalits`` and get the ``real`` info. other than relying on a few ``websites`` with a nefarious agenda.

I am a legitimate poster and I have been engaged in conversations with Dalits (at least I think they are) on other websites. In real life, I don`t live in India now and when I did, I never asked people what their caste is.

What is the ``nefarious agenda`` that you mean? I have come across some Christian fundamentalists who never tire of saying inaccurate things about any kind of philosophical thought that took birth on the Indian subcontinent or anywhere in Asia. By the way I am a practicing Buddhist now, but I used to believe in Advaita Vedanta, which I learned about from a book on it. There was nothing in that book about caste and I never learnt any Sanskrit Vedas or Upanishads - I grew up believing in monism - ie. we all have divinity and dhyana or jnana-yoga helps one realize it. Its NOT very hard to make the leap to Buddhism from this because Buddhism is also a ``dhyana`` or cognitive path that never requires blind faith or priestly interference. Only it doesn`t have ``God`` and ``Soul``(Self) and it HAS its own unique meditation technique that other Indian philosophical schools don`t have.

So I find the ``Hinduism is Brahminism`` thing exasperating because my whole family is Vedantin and they are really peaceful people who meditate a lot and don`t get angry. Just because its assumed that Brahmins wrote everything, some people superstitiously shy away from ideas that are in themselves completely inoffensive. People say Adi Sankara was influenced by Buddhism - he had to be - it was the prevailing religion of the time. Adi Sankara plagiarised ideas from Buddhism but Buddhism is the REAL THING!! Once a Buddhist you can never go back to Vedanta! So yes, I find a lot of the ``Hinduism is Brahminism`` brigade a little misguided. Its like saying ``Christianity is slavery``. I mean if you look at it, Christians have killed and enslaved more people than anyone else and can be really seriously bigoted and racist.

I notice you don`t like Islam. Ok, fine, you have the right to reject a religion. But in practice I find Muslims to be much more pleasant and calm people face to face at least than practising Christians who are often slimy. Besides in recent world history, Islam has been an underdog compared to Christianity and I am usually on the side of the underdog.

But there is another way to look at this. Official, political conversion (instead of the ``inward conversion`` I have undergone) - allows you to make people clarify their own stances on so many things. Why are people calling themselves Hindu? What are their actual beliefs? What political leverage does membership in different religious groups give you? Etc etc.

Re: # 213

``Look at the response of ``Dalit`` to my question. You can figure out if he is ``real`` or ``not`` yourself.. :-))...``

To clarify further to folks who do not know, ``Dalit`` is a generic term given to the lowest of the low in the ``caste`` hierarchy. It comprises of ``several`` castes grouped together. The ``madrassah`` educated ``Dalit`` (..!!!..) should know better to disguise himself. :-))

Re: # 212

googlymoogly:

I don`t know if you ever dealt with Dalits, I do it all the time. I have close friends who I have studied with and also relatives. If you see a few ``upper caste`` posters boasting about their ``caste superiority`` it`s mostly old folks who might probably have not seen an intelligent, smart and confident Dalit. The younger generation is much different.. There are no caste taboos in the cities, and it`s getting better in rural areas.

I pointed out the recent phenomenon of the powerful ``Dalit`` leader Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh, reaching out to ``Brahmins`` to Mr. ``Dalit`` here. He being educated in ``Madrassahs`` is unable to comprehend that and keeps ranting from the ``copy - paste`` messages from ``dalitstan.org``.

By ``we``, I meant the Dalits and ``lower castes``..The ``political power`` lies in our hands..which is natural because of the ``democratic traditions`` of India. Hope you`re a legitimate poster, talk to a few ``Dalits`` and get the ``real`` info. other than relying on a few ``websites`` with a nefarious agenda.

I`m not ``religious`` . If at all I want to be associated with any religion, It will probably be ``Hinduism`` / ``buddhism`` / ``Jainism``. I`ll decide it when I am old and have nothing else to do.. :-))

Look at the response of ``Dalit`` to my question. You can figure out if he is ``real`` or ``not`` yourself.. :-)).

>>>#206 googlymoogly

Heheheh…just made couple of mistakes….

I am sure I have. Hope you`ll point them out.


Masanumuthu said:
``FYI: There is no real opposition to Dalit / Non-dalit education.. ``

By education I mean the national myths we have grown up with. Like ``Hinduism teaches tolerance`` and ``Respect every religion``. Like the very upper-caste notions of nationalism, citizenship, ``India`s great rich heritage``, ``great Eastern wisdom`` etc that we have.

``If you take the survey of the people employed in the IT industry, you`d be pleasantly surprised to see the number of Dalits there.. ``

The Dalit websites say there is discrimination there and don`t Brahmins claim IT for themselves and dominate it? (So good at ``max``)


``The states that are leading employers of IT esp. Karnataka and TN have been reserving seats for the Dalits/lower-castes to the tune of more than 50%.. ``

Don`t they say that OBCs and MBCs take these seats away from Dalits?

``We give a rat`s a** to any talk of caste superiority/inferiority.. ``

Who`s ``we``? Maybe you don`t believe in all that. But please notice how the minute dalit starts posting people mention ``low class``, ``uneducated`` and of course the usual stuff about excrement, anal sex and sexual torture, apart from racist caste slurs.

It appears there is a mindset that still requires the silent punkahwallah to just stand in a corner while Daddy discusses politics with his friends.

#207 by masanamuthu

“let him come out with which region he is from and what is the name of the caste..”

Heheheheh…this one and a half wants my caste…heheheheh…my caste….hehehehe not obvious to this one and a half…..hehehehehe…you can never be twice born…. Tommy boy…..heheheheh…or uncle Tom…heheheheh…

#206 googlymoogly

Heheheh…just made couple of mistakes….heheheheh…better than these lizard minions……search your nic….heheheheheh

Ajeya, I`ve noticed every time Dalit and BC issues come up, people mention excrement, anal sex or sexual torture. Its a great eye-opener on the sickness lurking in the casteist mind. Who knows what kinds of tortures you will commit in some remote village. The abusive folks here still have a totally medieval, barbaric and feudal mindset. Get civilized folks!

I am sure it makes you very angry to have your fragile ``Hindu`` identity humilated but you shouldn`t let it addle your brains. I and Dalit are two distinct people, `k?

Masanumuthu, OK, let`s have Dalit give you the details. By the way, do you mean to say you consider yourself a ``Hindu``?

Re: #206 by dalitgoogly

For most people it takes two to have sex. Not for this idiot. He can keep masterbating with his alter-ego till the cows come home. Either that, or he`s extraordinarily gifted, and can perform the real thing on himself.

Re: # 206

Dalit and googlymoogly..nice pair..

ROFL...

I`m a lower caste guy with close relatives all over the spectrum including Dalits.. I think the ``Dalit`` here is a fraud, let him come out with which region he is from and what is the name of the caste.. It`s possible that he can copy + paste that from the ``dalitstan.org`` website too.. We can take it from there.. I suspect he is a Paki disguising himself as a ``dalit``.

FYI: There is no real opposition to Dalit / Non-dalit education.. If you take the survey of the people employed in the IT industry, you`d be pleasantly surprised to see the number of Dalits there.. The states that are leading employers of IT esp. Karnataka and TN have been reserving seats for the Dalits/lower-castes to the tune of more than 50%..

We give a rat`s a** to any talk of caste superiority/inferiority..

>>>lizard minion

Dalit, what is a lizard minion?

I agree with you about the ``no dirty linen on a Paki site`` mentality. We upper-castes have a patrirchal attitude about the ``nation``, which we think is our ``jagir`` never mind that we are only 15% and everyone else does all the real work.

Two afflictions of the non-Dalit education which place non-Dalits and Dalits in tense opposition
1. Nationalist tradition of struggle against British which makes us say ``everything was rosy until the British came`` and get angry with groups for whom things only improved after British rule.
2. Gandhian pluralism which makes us say ``please respect all religions and Hinduism along with it``.

I think the ``please respect all religions`` stuff that we are so proud of is our centuries long religious FEAR. We Hindus live in constant fear of doing something wrong religiously - touching the wrong person, circling a temple the wrong way, offending someone`s god etc.

These are the pathologies we have been left by our past.

Dear Dalit, please keep posting and throwing this prissy Indo-Pak debate off track by making caste explode into it. And feel free to insult me as well - I am sure I display some patronizing or over-confident attitudes typical of ``liberal`` upper-caste intelligensia.

#200 Friend

[1….I would have assumed it to be foolishness if it was limited to one or two articles. This lady has written 90 reports on chowk, and many more elsewhere. Her stance is same in all. And I will disagree with your suggestion that her ``foolishness`` should be permitted without anyone questioning her.]
I did not say not to question her, by all means DO question her, make her support every claim she makes – if she has the evidence. If she does not show up to answer, it indeed creates a credibility issue for her!

[2…This lady has shown bias in all her writings. Kargil happened and her complain was Indian army`s treatment of captured Pakistani militia. Girls in Paris was asked to forgo burqa and this woman complaints about that. Bamiyan budhha are blown up and this woman suddenly starts comparing that to Babri. She skips facts where it suits her. This fighter does not have independent views. Here views are very much in alignment of a narrow faction. ]
Although I have not read all those articles, let’s assume that your charges are supportable (if you were in a court of law, that would have been the default ruling, since the accused would be considered a “no show” (a subsequent indirect i-log addressing the sky is not an acceptable substitute)). The charges you make are serious charges – implying that her claims of objectivity (and perhaps even her claims of patriotism) may be a fake cover for “nefarious” designs. The important question is what could those designs be?

(1) Becoming a leader of Indian Mullahs?
(2) Secretly subverting the will of the Indian nation!
(3) Creating a niche space for herself – by grabbing for herself a job which was so low-quality that NOBODY was willing to do? (Immigrants usually know a thing or two about doing a job nobody else would do – whether they enjoy such a job or not.)

I think the probability of (1) or (2) is virtually nil. There may be something to (3). If that is the case, it is highly tragic (in my view) because of her considerable talents at tugging the heartstrings.

[3. … Here I will agree with you.. But ``occasional moments`` are no reason for her to be allowed to go unchallenged. This article will soon be quoted by someone else as a gospel of truth.]
You and others have every right (and depending on the viewpoint, perhaps even the duty) to keep the LIGHT focused!

Now, having said all those things, I would still like to draw your attention to some of the issues I mentioned in #191. In other words, while her objectivity may be open to questions (and indeed she does not claim that she is objective, and nobody does so on her behalf) and she lets her words run away many times (indeed it could be said that she LIKES them to do that), and she probably messes up a lot, she still is a breath of fresh air because of her candidness and her very different perspective from the mainstream, as well as the occasional situation (as you admitted) when she may have a particular insight into a problem that others may have missed. All that, plus her rest of “stuff” makes her still very much worthwhile in my eyes anyway!

I hope she shows up here to make a statement or two – but I have the feeling that she is more stubborn than a rebellious mule being forced to become intimate with a horse – it is just not in the nature of things!

hehehehe #203... lizard minion….heheheh…. trying to be the field captain…hehehehe
hehehehe…dumbfkk….. No dirty Linen on a paki site….hehehehe… your real problem… hehehe…Mythical figures….heheheh…talk about the real foot soldiers like the lizard minion…hehehehe….

googlymoogly

On the subject of dalits, our views are almost identical. I am an admirer of the late Sri Kanshi Ram. May we have more leaders like them.

I have no problem with real-life cases of dalits hitting the statues of mythical figures with chappals. I think those chappals are well-deserved. I would also submit myself to any abuse by genuine dalits for the undeniable sins of my ancestors. Some upper caste people do not fully share my views, but there are many many who actually do.

But it`s unwise to be taken for a ride by deceptive third parties who have quite separate selfish agendas. Who wave the flag of dalit issues merely and promiscuously to hide their own problems. Caring little for real dalits or for the solution of real dalit problems, they don`t mind trivializing the dalit cause by mixing it up with all their problems. That should concern you, me, and all real dalits.

I hope that explains why we must place our Mr. Non Dalit on complete ignore, and return the focus to where it rightfully belongs here.

Hi, Farzana, I hope things are ok with you, or as ok as they can be in the circumstances.
I wanted to ask you if you had seen Sunday`s issue of The Pioneer; they seem to have located `real` refugees.

``googlmoogly

It is not good to talk to oneself using different nicks. It`s almost as unethical as pretending to be dalit (oppressed) when one is not. ``

Kaalchakra, I am not Dalit. I am also non-Dalit. What makes you think Dalit is not Dalit? By the way Dalit really refers only to ``untouchables``. You can`t call yourself Dalit just because your mummy shouts at you daily.

I think Dalit really comes from a group that has suffered from casteism and discrimination. What he says can seem hateful, angry and taunting to us. But our ``nationalism``, ``secularism`` and even our ``Hinduism`` is a strictly non-Dalit affair - don`t you realize that? Why would people who are still banned from entering temples care two hoots about ``Hinduism``. Our media doesn`t even report the huge death toll among Dalits which eclipses Godhra on a monthly basis. Never mind the rapes.

I mean, I know you`ll say none of this is real Hinduism and you probably really feel that way. But you can`t expect Dalits to celebrate either the ``nation`` or ``India`s rich heritage``. Why would Dalits be nostalgic about a past that was even more horrendous than the present?

I agree its hard to take and I get pretty upset when I feel Dalits *hate* caste-Hindus, I also get upset by the taunting tone because I have personally never been casteist. However I dop think our education and our formation as ``Indian citizens`` is a toally upper-caste affair and Dalits see right through that which is humilating for us.

I AM NOT A DALIT. A real Dalit will probably figure that out right away.

My friend BJ#198

1. ``Can one be absolutely sure it’s a deliberate misrepresentation on the part of the author – not mere foolishness?``

I would have assumed it to be foolishness if it was limited to one or two articles. This lady has written 90 reports on chowk, and many more elsewhere. Her stance is same in all. And I will disagree with your suggestion that her ``foolishness`` should be permitted without anyone questioning her.

2. ``would you rather have a fighter who has independent views, and is not afraid to speak them, no matter how bright the spotlight ``

I would love to have fighters, but I would have fighters who fight for causes without any bias. This lady has shown biads in all her writings. Kargil happened and her complain was Indian army`s treament of captured Pakistani militia. Girls in Paris was asked to forgo burqa and this woman complaints about that. Bamiyan budhha are blown up and this woman suddenly starts comparing that to Babri. She skips facts where it suits her. This fighter does not have independent views. Here views are very much in alignment of a narrow faction.

3. ``Don’t you think that (even in her Civic Center type articles) aren’t there occasional moments of bright sunshine ``
Here I will agree with you.. But ``occasional moments`` are no reason for her to be allowed to go unchallenged. This article will soon be quoted by someone else as a gospel of truth.

googlmoogly

It is not good to talk to oneself using different nicks. It`s almost as unethical as pretending to be dalit (oppressed) when one is not.

As BeeJay requested, kindly let the discussion stay focused where it should.

#196 by googlymoogly

Dear googlymoogly, please stay on the topic. Also, I’ll appreciate it if you can give some feedback on my #191.

#197 by Friend

Dear Friend, I understand some of your concerns because I have shared (occasionally) some of them – especially this author’s ready willingness to accept at face value information (occasionally without attribution) from questionable sources not always well-regarded for their objectivity on specific political issues in which they maybe affected parties (i.e., having a “conflict of interest”).

You have EVERY right to set the record straight – I hope that Chowk would encourage you and others to do that! A couple of questions, though.

(1) Can one be absolutely sure it’s a deliberate misrepresentation on the part of the author – not mere foolishness? In other words, how can you not give her the benefit of doubt – at least not prove it “beyond a reasonable doubt”? (The fact that she is combative should not be used against the author – even the Queen of Jhansi was supposedly so, and is now held as a role model!)

(2) In India, would you rather have a fighter who has independent views, and is not afraid to speak them, no matter how bright the spotlight (even though some of those views may be utterly foolish or outlandish) or a pliant woman, cowering inside her burqa – too timid and scared to speak up? (Just to stretch the analogy a bit further – would you have a woman who meekly submits to organized mass rape or one who fights back for her individuality – providing the attempting rapist the educational benefit of a well-calculated full-impact kick into a carefully selected vulnerable spot?!)

(3) Don’t you think that (even in her Civic Center type articles) aren’t there occasional moments of bright sunshine (intelligence wise) visible? In other words (although perhaps few and far-between) aren’t there SOME instances when she actually makes sense?

If the answer to (1) is “perhaps no” and the answers to (2) and (3) are yes, then I would respectfully suggest to the enraged masses to (at least temporarily) forego this repast (no matter how much we may be ready and gung-ho to drool at the prospect of the delectable treat) – i.e., let’s not eat her alive just yet!! Thanks.

BJ janab#193

Kindly read ``Chowk`s`` introduction for this woman in ``The Mandir Mirage`` .. ``Farzana Versey is a widely read and respected author and columnist in India. She is particularly famous for her extremist and anti-establishment views.
At another site she describes herself as ``Farzana Versey is a freelance writer. Her work appears on Chowk, Rediff and Midday.``

I agree that banning anyone is not correct action. However, setting record straight is what I want. This woman has all rights to her views. But when she says that her views are based on facts, I will like to challenge her.

These lies, if left unchallenged, may get taken as future references by others. An example is her use of that spurious statistics from kashmiris.org, a site funded by Islamabad. Now someone will try to quote Farzana VErsey on Chowk and slowly those number will acquire a legitimacy.
This lady quote Chittisinghpora and says why there is no enquiry. My question is whose enquiry will she believe? She has no faith in enquiries made by Indian Government, or by anyone who is not muslim. Even among muslim she has no faith in anyone whose report will not conform to her conclusion. There was a report on this incident from ``Barry Bearak`` of NYTimes on Dec 31, 2000. Would she care to read that and report why she doesn`t agree?

She is part of a vicious circle of rumor-mongers who feed on each other.

HELLO DALIT,
I am not a Dalit, so please insult me first, and then we can talk, perhaps? I agree that you have every right to insult me because I have been the beneficiary of the injustices committed on your people.


You said:
``first they are atheist and agnostics…..hehehehe…then they are Christian….roman catholic…hehehehe …Now I am not hindu…..hehehehe..

Ashamed of your racist, uncivil and inhuman religion…heheheheh...bozo….``

Dalit, is it possible that non-Dalits and Dalits grow up with different ideas about who and what they are?? For example, privileged Hindus feel that ``Hindu`` is about what name you have. If you have a Hindu name you are Hindu. So, they don`t see it as related to what they believe about God etc. They may never have read any holy books and may even think its rubbish. But they know they haven`t read the Bible or Koran or Guru Granth Sahib or Buddhist works, and that the world therefore thinks they are Hindu. So you will in fact find atheist Hindus and agnostic Hindus and so on.

Secondly - most upper-caste Hindus who are not overly religious grow up revering ``unity in diversity``. They take this in the Gandhi sense where all religious practices are to be revered and handled with kid gloves, however dumb they are. Ambedkar fearlessly evaluated and considered many religions. Not like Gandhi who said all religions are to be handled like errrr sacred cows.

So when the ``Gandhi tradition`` upper-castes hear you maligning a religion, they immediately think you are ``communal`` and think you are really evil for being communal. Its not like they`re attached to ``Hinduism`` - they`re attached to ``secularism`` and ``pluralism``. This is the only language they have. Even I suffered from this affliction until some kind Dalits abused the hell out of me and brought me to my senses.

Anyway - just wanted you to know that some of us non-Dalits suffer from intellectual afflictions and faulty education. I understand your anger but please be patient. As more and more dalits speak their minds and hit us with the shoes we rightly deserve, more and more of us will become educated. Just as Buddha said we all have the seed of enlightenment in us, even the most senselessly stupid upper-caste can - sometime in the distant future achieve an understanding of Dalit issues.

Jai Bheem and metta!

#194 by cranberry

I understand your two points.

[We definiteley want most of the people to have lots of her virtues , except perhaps the dogmatic socialistic line of thinking. ]
Believe me, I do understand it. There are parts of her posts and articles that send me through the roof sometimes. But FV is a package – we can not split her up (don’t go by the split up picture on her interactor’s page). We can not keep parts of her that please us, and turn over the rest of her (unwanted) self to others (Subroto’s mutt, for example) to chomp over. She is ALL ours (and NOBODY else’s)!

[Another problem is internet. With internet, any person can put her/his thought on the internet and then soon gets bombarded from around the globe. … in good old days she would have first honed her skills on college/local level ….]
Yes, the internet has changed the way this game is played. But whatever “easier” access FV gets due to internet (and the way I understand it, she still uses a dial-up connection while many in the west (I included) enjoy the distinct advantage of high-speed) – is available to EVERYBODY else. Plus, the internet is here to stay.

Is it fair for me to assume that you do not have an issue with the rest of my points in #191?

#191 Beejay
`` ... When one expects a minority to toe a line, haven’t we already reduced our concept of democracy to a farce? The fact – that she is a member of a minority group – yet she does NOT toe the line – and feels comfortable expressing them – shouldn’t that be a cause for us to cherish the strength of our democracy? ...``

I think she is a minority of different kind ie the people with Leftisit/Socialistic or similarly line of thought. I read some of her old posts again, and she comes out to be a nice, honest sort of person. We definitley want most of the people to have lots of her virtues , except perhaps the dogmatic socialistic line of thinking.

I think socialists think that only they care about poor or equality and the other people are just out to suck blood out of the next person available.

Tonnes of discussion have taken place on this topic and its endless so no need to start again.

Another problem is internet. With internet, any person can put her/his thought on the internet and then soon gets bombared from around the globe. Assuming Farzana is a young jornalist/author in the making, in good old days she would have first honed her skills on college/local level and then would have come up on world wide level, if she would have overcome the competition along the way.

But the internet pitchforks us all right into the global arena whether we have yet undergone and survived the baptism by fire or not. So here we are all, with our dorm level exp of discussion , debate , knowledge and idea`s trying to win the world.

#192 Friend

Although I understand what you are saying, as far as I know, she does not call herself a journalist – merely an opinion piece writer. Some of her stuff (and I am not talking about the Civic Center necessarily) is actually quite good! (I have, in the past, called some of her work “third grade” but the janitor has quite a high threshold even for third-grade!) I suppose she is too opinionated and that really jars people, on many controversial contemporary issues! How does it matter, it’s just another person’s opinion! SHE is the one who probably ends up paying some price for her being “pig-headed”! She is the one who pays the price for not being well-balanced! She is the one who pays in terms of credibility – when she thinks that the simple rules of double-checking of sources do NOT apply to her! Life goes on, in every other respect.

Also, it makes for more energized discussions – as evidenced by the increased number of interacts!

I have the feeling that in spite of the controversy surrounding some of her positions and articles, even her detractors still want her around. After all, when the lion proposed a vote to throw her out of Chowk – NOBODY voted for it!

I also think that you should consider ALL the points I mentioned in #191.

Janitor saheb #191
Opinion are one thing. Claiming that opinions are based on facts is another thing. This lady claims to be a journalist. She also claims that what she write is based on facts.

Now in this article she described several facts as she saw them. I am questioning those facts. Her whole premise is based on those facts. If those facts are questioned than either she should set record straight or admit that her premise is wrong.

If you cared to notice, she has written 90 articles (stories..) for chowk. Read her story on Mumbai blasts. That sotry came within 10 hours of blasts. And conclusion of that story was that BJP had planned those blasts for getting votes.

Journalism should be based on facts. Otherwise she should call her write-ups a story, and put a disclaimer at the end stating that.

Okay, this has gone on long enough! The janitor and the lion have dozed off and it’s time for the “knight” to stick his neck out – with trepidation! (Chopped necks are NOT good things in life!) Obviously, I am no longer an Indian, but for the sake of discussion here, I’m going to put on my “Indian” hat! Also, let me step away from details and try to look at the overall picture.

(1) This author has certain opinions. As she said in an i-log, they are not written in stone (this is the closest to a concession that I have ever heard from her). But they are her opinions, and as citizens of a free democracy, she has every right to them.

(2) Her opinions are not mainstream opinions. There is little doubt on that. In a free commercial enterprise type of setup, there is a price to be paid for being on the ideological fringe (in this case, not so much a fringe as an outlier point). Such a price is a simple commercial reality – if your audience does not like you, you don’t have a job. Period. She appears to have decided to pay the price. That is a sign of courage (or foolishness, depending on one’s point of view)!

(3) She openly sympathizes with the Kashmiris. She does call Kashmiris (in a 2000 article) “freedom-fighters” (perhaps rhetoric, since the case she makes is for a pre-1953 state of autonomy – not of separation from the Indian union). When I read that article in question, I also notice that she makes a distinction between foreign fighters and domestic insurgency.

(4) She does blame the Pandits (unfairly, of course) for leaving the valley – and she also compares them to others who stayed put elsewhere (an unfair comparison, since the presence of foreign fighters makes ALL the difference). Impractical suggestions, but since when have literary figures and artists become famous for being practical?

(5) She does not hold back her words. Many of her words could have been worded differently to be less provoking and still communicate the same message. But that’s just her style! It’s not a crime to have a provocative style!

(6) She has virtually no constituency, and knowing her style for “making friends and influencing people” her constituency is unlikely to have an explosive rate of growth anytime soon.

Knowing all of the above,

(a) Aren’t we better off being aware of what her opinions are (however non-pragmatic), rather than she keeping quiet because of a “lynch mob” fear (I am not necessarily saying she subscribes to such fear (my guess is it is simple stubbornness (but then, reading thoughts is a dicey business)). If she actually were to quiet down out of fear (although I doubt it), can we still say that we are a successful democratic society where a member of a minority can hold up her as a proud Indian and speak up her mind the way SHE sees it (faulty or not)! And won’t that be the real tragedy?

(b) On the outside chance that SOME of her points do have merit, shouldn’t we examine her statements for any trace of validity? Isn’t it BETTER to have a dissenting opinion handy to validate one’s own decision-making? (Raheem’s poem – “Nindak Niyare Raakhiye….” comes to my mind.)

(c) If she did not belong to the faith that she does, would we be treating some of these positions she takes with the same outrage? That is a difficult question to answer and each person must honestly look inside his/her own heart and only such person would know the answer for sure. In my case, I have a feeling that if her name were (let us say) Buddhu Devi instead of Farzana Versey, it would probably not have the same incendiary effect on the lion! But then, that could be just me!

(d) From the Kashmiri Pandit point of view, how many people (journalists included) have taken the trouble to actually go and visit the refugee camps AND slums for other disadvantaged people? Who would have a better perspective (in comparing the plights of individuals and groups)? (Of course, she could have skipped some of her provocative words, and she should use more reputable references (and attribute them) in order to avoid having doubts thrown on her whole effort due to one lousy source (One person investigative squads without editorial oversight rarely do very well in real life!))

(e) Like I said earlier – this author is not the CAUSE of the problems, she just describes them as she sees them. (So does the janitor, by the way! Therefore, the janitor respects that consistency (inspite of his harsh words, on occasions)!)

When one expects a minority to toe a line, haven’t we already reduced our concept of democracy to a farce? The fact – that she is a member of a minority group – yet she does NOT toe the line – and feels comfortable expressing them – shouldn’t that be a cause for us to cherish the strength of our democracy? Thus restoring our faith in ourselves? Why should we worry that she speaks her opinion? Isn’t a policy made by the elected representatives of the overall population? What are we afraid of – that she will grab the wheels of power and declare herself the “Chief Executive of India”? (Does she even know how to drive – I doubt it somehow!)

In many ways, FV represents what I (in jest) call Mirchi – but she is OUR mirchi – and I’m glad that she does not get cowed down (whether or not we agree with her on individual statements on individual issues).

These are my REAL thoughts. Others are of course welcome to their own opinions! Your comments to mine are quite welcome. Please hold the viriol, for a change, because they do not contribute anything positive! I am personally very thankful for some of her (non-political) “stuff”! Thanks!

=== Interact Removed ===

This author spitted out an article on chowk almost 110 hours after Mumbai blasts. She was equally prompt after Ayodhya, and Akshardham.

Why should this calamity be holding her from responding?

Re: #185 by rainaajay

[Dear Ms farzana,
But, why are you silent now about receiving all the flak you much desreved.
If you want to take on a kashmiri pandit one to one, here I am on. BUT ATLEAST MAKE SOME SENSE. Ok.
lets have it! ]


It`s no use. Like all muslims, Farzana knows full well that she cannot defend the indefensible - be it Mohammed`s life-examples, be in Koranic injunctions, be it the Islamic legacy of barbarism, be it Partition or Jinnah, be it illegally occupying POK, be it terrorism in J&K, or in the rest of the world.

This is the reason Islam lays so much stress on absolute, unquestioning loyalty. Kill, before questions can be raised. Intimidate people into silence. Because there is much to be defended. And no logical way to defend ANY of it.

So do not expect logical debate from islamist types like Farzana, Tahmed32 or Romair. They will put up a facade of pseudo-erudition and studied civility, but under that thin veneer beats the heart of an islamist. Farzana for example, blames Pandits for their situation. Romair once told someone who upset him that he doubted if that person could tell him the same thing face-to-face in Lahore (shades of Dawood Ibrahim). And Tahmed32 is the type that will hold you down while others shout Bismillah and saw your head off with a hacksaw, IF he considers the whole thing done in the PRESCRIBED manner.

I used to try to argue logically with these idiots before. But now I realize why longer-term Chowk visitors like Kaurasch and Harimau resort to one-liners and sarcasm. It`s because there is no arguing with these people. When cornered in an argument they simply shut up and go to another forum and start all over again. Never will they say ``You know what, I have NOTHING to say to that, so I guess I was wrong``. Nope. Fanatics will be fanatics. So nowadays I try to get as much satisfaction as I can from throwing richly-deserved mud in their face. Long, protracted arguments are good for nothing here.

#186 Chowkstaff

Dear Chowkstaff:

Now that you have woken up (so to speak) I hope you will actually do your “job” (wages notwithstanding) and hold authors to the same standards (and I don’t mean this board (but I do mean one particular parallel board, still ongoing)), especially authors who have used well-recognized terms of abuse (epithets) to address interactors. Let’s see if you have the guts to go back and delete THOSE interacts, too! Otherwise, your impartiality and credibility will pretty much vanish (at least in my eyes)!

All replies that include personal attacks will be filtered across articles. Interactors are requested to focus on the message and content of the article. Misuse of the Interact process will result in removal of that reply. Repeated misuse will result in removal of the interactor.

Dear Ms farzana,
But, why are you silent now about receiving all the flak you much desreved.
If you want to take on a kashmiri pandit one to one, here I am on. BUT ATLEAST MAKE SOME SENSE. Ok.
lets have it!

=== Interact Removed ===

This is not nice.No one`s hands are clean in all of this.The best way out is a fac saving compromise to make the kashmiris look good.And, absolute crackdown on terrorism by the paks.If not , the international community will step in and Pak will become another Iraq or Afghanistan.Who`s got more to lose??................
Last Updated: Friday, 29 July 2005, 09:21 GMT 10:21 UK
BBC News
E-mail this to a friend Printable version

Militants `slit Hindus` throats`

Suspected Muslim militants have raided a village in Indian-administered Kashmir, slitting the throats of five Hindus, police have said.
The attackers entered Dhoob village, 200km (125 miles) north-west of Jammu and segregated Muslims from Hindus before the killings, the police said.

No group has yet said it carried out Thursday night`s attack.

There are a number of Muslim militant groups in the region which have been fighting Indian rule since 1989

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4727057.stm

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 177

EEEEWWW!.Thanks but no thanks.More puthars and sand storms(andheris) is what we would have ended up with.Have you seen a pak-punjabi lately?.Dim, would be a complimentary word to describe them.Remember DR.Gill, who works in the Detroit SEWER department?

WARNING: THIS INTERACT DOES NOT CONTAIN HUMOR. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.

An interactor earlier suggested to me (in good faith, I’m sure) to focus my comments on the article itself, rather than the supposed “shortcomings” of the author. I fully understand the sentiment.

In future, I will try to do so as much as possible. However, with this article, let me tell you why I find it so difficult. There are two reasons.

First, I have considerable regard for this author’s talents – on issues that deal with subtle sentiments, human emotions, style, and the like. I have a difficult time reconciling her apparent compassion for everybody with selective indifference toward segments of her country’s population.

Second, and the real problem, is that responding to the contents of an article like this plays right into the hands of what the author’s design seems to be – she is trying to generate discussion on the fictitious issue of WHETHER (and HOW MUCH) the Pandits were victims!

The REAL issue, the enormity of an ethnic cleaning – the first we have seen in independent India (in complicity with a foreign power, which this author conveniently fails to mention) – the first precedent that indeed it is possible to wholesale uproot a minority – completely escapes her – or does it?! And if that example were to be used as a role model to be followed up on a larger scale – what the implications are for her country – also goes over her head – or does it?

When she wrote her original article, this author (there is no kinder way to put it) screwed up. Now, instead of being able to face up to having screwed up, she digs into her heels – she hides away her burqa, sneaks into somebody’s home (I bet she never told the “interviewed” lady about what she had written in her first article (Author, if you got guts, answer a YES or NO to that! (Of course, she won’t!)), or she would have found herself unceremoniously booted out, landing her fanny flat on the pavement.) She brought no professional colleagues with her, ensuring for herself an ability to pick and choose facts as she fancied them to suit her weird point of view that although kicked out from their ancestral homes – these Pandit folks were actually a pampered lot!

One could be kind to the author and call her “screwed up” and let go at that! Many sane chowkies (both Indian and Pakistanis) have come to that conclusion and left it at that (Author, how does it feel to be patronized?). The janitor refuses to do that and all the knights have bolted – mortally afraid of the mop!

This product the author serves here is no fly in the soup. It’s the real yellowish brown, soft-like stuff with a strongly disagreeable aroma – and the janitor will have no part of it – let the author and her cohorts enjoy this fruit of her hard work all by themselves! They deserve every bit of it! Enjoy to your heart’s fill! And don’t stop yourselves from going for seconds, thirds… whatever!

Let me talk a bit about what the author’s intentions appear to be. She projects the image of a confrontationist who only has “benign” wishes for her country. A lot of her civic-center type articles have the appearance of shadow-boxing. And certainly, on any topic, one can make multiple maneuvers and dance around in one place for a while, creating doubts regarding which way one is headed. However, taken cumulatively and over time, it is not so difficult to guess in what direction her overall movement is occurring.

When everything is said and done, it is becoming extremely difficult to find an issue on which this author takes a position substantially or significantly different from individuals whose openly avowed aim in life is to hurt India and everything that India stands for – especially its secularism. What is interesting and perhaps pathetic is that this author lacks even the courage that such groups show, of openly stating what her intentions are. Like in her i-logs, in her articles also she likes to twist words which can be interpreted in a variety of ways – just to leave a gossamer-thin cover for her. However, this trick can only succeed to a point! No further!

As usual, I’m sorry about any hurt to any individuals that these statements may cause. The reality is that words of denunciation, outrage, calumny, and even expletives have only a limited ability to hurt us – especially for those who have developed the necessary resilience (through repeated practice, I’m sure). Those are no big deals! There is one, just one thing that penetrates through all that armor and hits home, because it is so simple!

And that’s the truth!

At this point, I would like to address a few words to the Kashmiri Pandits who suffered – directly or through their relations.

Many have failed you!

I and individuals like me are strong believers in the Second amendment – the ultimate responsibility for an individual’s defense lies with the individual! There are good reasons for that amendment in the U.S. In India, I see some of those same reasons in place in states like Bihar (and perhaps other parts of the country), where individuals and families have taken to arms in their own defense – to protect themselves – because even though they were originally law-abiding citizens, there was nobody to protect them – from tough men, from corrupt politicians, from hordes of masses who simply outnumbered them. Government is a necessary evil and it is rarely a reliable protector even in the most developed and most civilized of places, mostly it protects its own vested interests, which only tend to enlarge over time! India, of course is still developing.

Having said all of that, YOU, and not people in far-away places (within and outside India) are the best judges of what makes sense – to stay put or to escape – in a given situation! You had the right to make that call – and you did! Those of you who could – chose the way that suited you best – including escape – to survive.

No HONEST Indian would begrudge your escaping with your lives intact, then building up new lives! It’s one of the toughest things to do in life – starting over! It consists of picking up shards – not just of one’s ego, which this author is always whining about – but that of one’s whole life and that of families, friends, neighbors, all at once sometimes!

Whatever community support you received ought to be held as a role model and should be emulated by other communities. In many respects, it mirrors what the Jewish people went through after the holocaust (and is it a mere coincidence that I have noticed this author exhibit contempt for those people, too)! There is not a single individual in this world that has not needed a helping hand at some point or other in his or her life. Your success at surviving can provide hope to others who may find themselves in similar predicament – only petty-hearted individuals of the lowest order (the janitor interjects: “the scum of the earth”) will put a negative spin on that! The fact that this author keeps on harping the same tune makes HER look like a pathetic ignoramus, a cruel schemer, or worse!

And there is one more thing! What is the effect of doing the outrageous things this author seems to be doing?! Who does it hurt? Not the Pandits – their hurting has already been inflicted and was inflicted by others, not by her! Those who survived that terrible ordeal have proved their mettle by coming out and being able to deal with the hardship successfully, and by becoming positive contributors!

But look at this talented author – she has to hide herself inside her “garden” of this pathetic web-site and spend her considerable creative talents on pondering over, dodging, and (when absolutely forced through jeers and taunts administered by this “nacheej” Beej) responding to the words of trivial janitors – janitors with limited skills and talents and resources in every respect! And the best argument she can contrive is something as pathetic as – the sewer I saw a couple of days ago was worse than this! Wow! The height of literary accomplishment!

And do you think this issue is going to leave her any time soon? Well, guess again!

Who is the loser here – the Pandits or the author?! My bet is on the author!

EVERYBODY on this site knows that – even the people on the “other” side! That’s why NOBODY supports HER criticism of the Pandits, even though all the usual opportunists are here – using her board to score those same old same-olds which they have done – oh, only a million times or so before!

Her cohorts may disagree with what I say here! They should feel free to do so – they have every right to live in their make-believe world! But somebody needs to remind them that the days of the Mughal raj are long gone – have been gone for more than 300 years! It’s a brave new world, where exclusivity is out – and you guys and gal have missed the train!

Let’s all try to be kinder to this set of losers! On my part, I’ll try to hold off on the darshan routine, because I usually leave this author absolutely clueless!

I think we should all give Farzana the benefit of the disruption caused by the Mumbai floods. In as much as networks and electricity being down, as well as the sheer scale of the disaster yet unfolding.

Though, at the same time, if ANYTHING proves that we are a secular nation, it is these calamities. And the people on the street responses subsequently.

delhiwala

I don`t know the details of the trade you suggested. I guess a fair trade of land should be acceptable to all parties, since land is what Pakistan wants and India will not give up.

---

Yaar, there is no reason for Muslims in India to be the losers. People always lose and gain by association. To the extent Muslims in India are seen to be associated with anti Hindu/Sikh forces elsewhere in the world, they would lose. To the extent they are seen to be with Hindus and Sikhs, and against Anti-Hindu/Sikh forces in the world, they would actually gain.

The law of cause and effect works fairly well most of the times.

Re: # 176
I know that they have really wiped out or forced Sikhs and Pandits in Indian Kashmir.
KPS Gill wanted to go there but BJP refused. I wonder what would have happened then?

Last time Kashmir saw rule of the law was when Hari Singh Nalwa got it and Ranjit Singh`s 11 th son was born and named Kashmira Singh preceding Peshaura Singh.

I don`t know the solution, but I do know one thing. India will never give up Kashmir by talks etc. and Pakistanis will never give their claim, loosers would be Kashmiris and rest of the Muslims in India.

How about we trade Lahore with Kashmir, ever thought about, this was discussed in Jan 1947 between Jinnah and others. Sheikhupura distt was 2/3 Sikh/Hindu but still given to Pakistan. It could have been traded with Kashmir then.

I guess.

Kaalchakra #175
No I am not from that part of Himalayas. But I have been to Kashmir enough times, and have been with Kashmiris enough times to know places and people.

I have been to chota Pakistan and sopore.

Friend

Hmmm...you do know your Sopore.

Have you lived in those parts? Are you a Kashmiri?

kaura,

Kashmir`s problem is its muslim majority, their proximity to paki jehadis and secular hijdapan of central leadership in Delhi.

10 Lakh muslims in Kashmir are whining while being pampered whereas 10 crore muslims elsewhere in India have learned to live with it, of course excluding aberrations like Fuzzy.

We need to find a long lasting solution for all of these illnesses.

Farzana`s advise to Pandits is that they should stay in Valley and face terrorism heads-on. I have another better advice for her.

Let her go to Kashmir, pretending to be a hindu woman, live there for few months and than report her experiences back to us. It would be even better if she can try to live in Sopore or Lal chowk.

Kashmir`s problem and freedom struggle is religion based and the demands and solutions are also religious based. Everyone knows what happened when a nation was created based on religious demands in 47.

The folly should not be repeated again. Kashmiri muslims in general have no desire to include non muslim Kashmiris.

Kashmiri freedom may bring freedom to Kashmiri muslims and solve THEIR problems. That won`t end the Paki/Indian/Hindu/Muslim animosities.

Kashmir is just an EXCUSE to stir Kanjarpana in India. If Kashmir is given independence, Pakis will come up with an excuse in NEFA, UP, etc. - just like Palestine has been used an excuse for worldwide terrorism by muslim fanatics and their billion or so supporters. Now that the Palestine issue/conflict has cooled, Iraq and Afghanistan are new excuses to wage terror in every corner of the world.

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Focus on the issues raised by the article. Don`t let Mr. NonDalit provoke you into getting sidetracked. Ignore him totally.

Mr. NonDalit is afraid of certain issues. He is trying to hide his own problems by misusing the name of dalits. That is a shame.

Allow him to continue with his he he`s alone or in the company of similar, non Dalit admirers. Let these admirers be exposed for what they are - people who lack their own arguments, and so must rely on trickery and fraud.

Again, from this point onwards, totally ignore Mr. NonDalit. Only a particularly thickheaded person cannot see through his game of pulling people away from the subject of this article.

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This board is also beginning to give me a headache.No wonder `dalits` were treated the way they are.The `dalit` on this board displays his `dalit` mentality perfectly.OR, could he/she be PAK???.Same.

#163

Look at profiles of these bombers aywhere in the world. They may be of different ethnic origin, thay may have different skin colors, and may speak different languages. One thing is common. Before their final act they had been on a pilgrimage to Pakistan to get their final post-doctoral degree in Terrorism.

#165 by delhiwala

“BTW, I am not a Hindu.”

Heheheh… another…. bozo heheheh….
first they are atheist and agnostics…..hehehehe…then they are Christian….roman catholic…hehehehe …Now I am not hindu…..hehehehe..

Ashamed of your racist, uncivil and inhuman religion…heheheheh...bozo….

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heheheh...brave hindu....racist....read this...heheheheh
heheheh...ganddoo.....hehehehe...

``For the ills which the Untouchables are suffering, if they are not as much advertised as those of the Jews, and are not less real. Nor are the means and the methods of suppression used by the Hindus against the Untouchables less effective because they are less bloody than the ways which the Nazis have adopted against the Jews. The Anti-Semitism of the Nazis against the Jews is no way different in ideology and in effect from the Sanatanism of the Hindus against the Untouchables.The world owes a duty to the Untouchables as it does to all suppressed people to break their shackles and set them free.``

Dr. B.R. Ambedkar in a preface to his book, ``Gandhi and the Emancipation of Untouchables`` - 1st September 1943

Re: # 161
Friend,

Only thing I want is for these idiots to stop claiming that Pakistan is not involved in Kashmir.

They are not idiots, but devout muslims, as lying to kafirs is officially approved in Islam and considered legitimate.

#158
Arjun,

So let me get this straight...the paki army fails to recover siachen and fails to hold on to kargil and they still get medals?

I am sure there must be many more loosers in there who got medals for the brave surrender to Indian army 71.

#159 by delhiwala

“Howcome Indians go along with other Muslims except Pakistanis.”

Heheheh…this hindu is crazy….hehehehe…. hindus get along famously with Indian Muslims….they ram swords thru prego Muslims women’s wombs killing the unborn…. Get along with Muslims…..heheheh…
Hindu can’t get along with anybody….hehehehe…monsters….hehehehe… hindu are bully…always pick on weak…heheheheh….

arjun#158
I don`t care if they get tons of medals. Let them have it. Only thing I want is for these idiots to stop claiming that Pakistan is not involved in Kashmir.

delhiwala#159
Unfortunately I have to disagree. It is not from our side. We can have Lt Kamaluddin(?), (chosen as Mister Shivaji during his college life) dying for Indian army. But for Pakistan, it is a religious battle. As Jinnah famously said, Pakistan came into existence when first person converted to Islam in India. That mentality is still there in Pakistan. These katloo idiots assume that it is their birthright to stick their nose in anything muslim anywhere in world.

Re: # 158
Not to attack SSG but in 1965 Op Gibraltar was a grand failure. SSG surrendered to villagers and BSF in Adampur and Pathankot.
I have heard this from elders, Pakistani Army soldiers are very brave, especially their NCOs but Officers always botch up. That is what happened in 1965.

What is the solution?
Can`t there be peace without anyone`s piece?

Re: # 156
What is the solution?
Farnkly, I don`t think that IndiaPakistan conflict is religous in nature, it might have been in the past but not right now.
It is the ego clash as we see it on chowk everyday.

Howcome Indians go along with other Muslims except Pakistanis.

#156 by friend on July 27, 2005 10:48am PT


SSG has a long list of battle honours and spurs won through a wide variety of operations ranging from Gibraltar to Kargil and Siachen.


So let me get this straight...the paki army fails to recover siachen and fails to hold on to kargil and they still get medals?