Pakistan’s Choice

Free trade with India would naturally benefit Pakistan. I think there will be some sort of free-trade agreement within the next 6 to 12 months.

And for those who live in a fool`s paradise, remain in it, the real world does not want you.

re: trade with India: Pak says No until K problem solved
Here is a gem from Pakis:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=431893
(``With India, free trade and investment ... Has to move in tandem with progress on overall relations with the two countries, and the main issue is ... Kashmir,`` Aziz said during an official visit to Hong Kong.(
This puppet PM does not realize that Pak is losing out if it does not have free trade with India. Someone in another forum talked about Srilanka`s free trade with India and how it has taken off, despite past animosities.
Problem is: Pak is an ideological state, much like former Soviet Union, Yugaslavia, Prussia and will likely meet the fate these nations met. Ideological states do not last long. It would surprise readers a nation not on the map today viz Prussia, lasted 200 years.
Who is this Aziz guy kidding.
Another 10 years and Pak will come grovelling to India for free trade. India can then tell Pak to Fukc off.
Sridhar

re: Romair`s post
(The main issues in Pakistan, at the moment, are a lack of skill-sets..)
Romair must be kidding.
Pakis are very skilled.
Skilled at:
1. Illegally immigrating to other countries
2. Repainting North Korean and Chinese missiles and calling them there own, after going thr` proper ceremony of dedication, giving them a new name (Ghori, ghazni etc etc).
3. at IT ie International Terrorism.
4. at making nukes cladestinely and then exporting them cladestinely to rogue regimes like North Korea, Iran.
The list goes on and on.
Gosh, Pakis are very skilled!
Sridhar

re:#580 by rsribhar
(Just because this rsridhar character attempts to walk on two legs, pretends to have a brain, and is extremely proud of his South Indian name, he is really totally different from me. Of course, I am not responsible for any debts, promises, or contracts incurred by this primate)

If only name could endow u with some brains, u would have one by now. Carry on with the charade. I do not mind u having a similar sounding nic. It only amuses me.
You only come out as a person of dubious character, vilifying me in one post and then trying to make amends in the very next.
Perhaps a typical Paki trait.
Sridhar

Mr. Jinnah`s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
August 11, 1947

---

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen!
I cordially thank you, with the utmost sincerity, for the honour you have conferred upon me - the greatest honour that is possible to confer - by electing me as your first President. I also thank those leaders who have spoken in appreciation of my services and their personal references to me. I sincerely hope that with your support and your co-operation we shall make this Constituent Assembly an example to the world. The Constituent Assembly has got two main functions to perform. The first is the very onerous and responsible task of framing the future constitution of Pakistan and the second of functioning as a full and complete sovereign body as the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. We have to do the best we can in adopting a provisional constitution for the Federal Legislature of Pakistan. You know really that not only we ourselves are wondering but, I think, the whole world is wondering at this unprecedented cyclonic revolution which has brought about the clan of creating and establishing two independent sovereign Dominions in this sub-continent. As it is, it has been unprecedented; there is no parallel in the history of the world. This mighty sub-continent with all kinds of inhabitants has been brought under a plan which is titanic, unknown, unparalleled. And what is very important with regards to it is that we have achieved it peacefully and by means of an evolution of the greatest possible character.

Dealing with our first function in this Assembly, I cannot make any well-considered pronouncement at this moment, but I shall say a few things as they occur to me. The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasize is this: remember that you are now a sovereign legislative body and you have got all the powers. It, therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions. The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

The second thing that occurs to me is this: One of the biggest curses from which India is suffering - I do not say that other countries are free from it, but, I think our condition is much worse - is bribery and corruption. That really is a poison. We must put that down with an iron hand and I hope that you will take adequate measures as soon as it is possible for this Assembly to do so.

Black-marketing is another curse. Well, I know that blackmarketeers are frequently caught and punished. Judicial sentences are passed or sometimes fines only are imposed. Now you have to tackle this monster, which today is a colossal crime against society, in our distressed conditions, when we constantly face shortage of food and other essential commodities of life. A citizen who does black-marketing commits, I think, a greater crime than the biggest and most grievous of crimes. These blackmarketeers are really knowing, intelligent and ordinarily responsible people, and when they indulge in black-marketing, I think they ought to be very severely punished, because the entire system of control and regulation of foodstuffs and essential commodities, and cause wholesale starvation and want and even death.

The next thing that strikes me is this: Here again it is a legacy which has been passed on to us. Along with many other things, good and bad, has arrived this great evil, the evil of nepotism and jobbery. I want to make it quite clear that I shall never tolerate any kind of jobbery, nepotism or any any influence directly of indirectly brought to bear upon me. Whenever I will find that such a practice is in vogue or is continuing anywhere, low or high, I shall certainly not countenance it.

I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of everyone of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling that exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is, whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than what has been done, A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgement there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record is verdict in favour of it. And what is more, it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that was the only solution of India`s constitutional problem. Any idea of a united India could never have worked and in my judgement it would have led us to terrific disaster. Maybe that view is correct; maybe it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be on end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Well, gentlemen, I do not wish to take up any more of your time and thank you again for the honour you have done to me. I shall always be guided by the principles of justice and fairplay without any, as is put in the political language, prejudice or ill-will, in other words, partiality or favouritism. My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest nations of the world.

I have received a message from the United States of America addressed to me. It reads:

I have the honour to communicate to you, in Your Excellency`s capacity as President of the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, the following message which I have just received from the Secretary of State of the United States:
On the occasion of of the first meeting of the Constituent Assembly for Pakistan, I extend to you and to the members of the Assembly, the best wishes of the Government and the people of the United States for the successful conclusion of the great work you are about to undertake.

---

Hmmm.. I`ve been out of the city for the past few days and have not been interacting. Seems as the debate here has ended. Ciao

Ballu Khan Sahib #609, {``Pakitanis have to make a choice now............they are in a great danger of letting Taliban goons run the country......... ``}

Ballu Sahib, you are definitely right about this one. As you know, Pakis have now been practicing with suicide bombing. Indians better watch it. The next suicide bomber could be good old Mushy, or a reasonable facsimile, with a nuke strapped on his back. :)

Salim

You are right when you said pakistan has to clean its act and to reform its society. However you are wrong when you said, ``No intelligent person can blame India for Pakistan’s myopic and incompetent policies, both foreign and domestic, and for its miseries`` as every student of International Relations know nuclear arms race, security situation and balance of power can have davastating impact on domestic and foreign policy of a country. As far Indias emergance as a `new darling of west` is concerned it is not because India is a seculer democracy (infact it is a Hindu-Seculer democracy) and educated and professional work force on the other hand for west India is a big and cheap market. They want to get in to indian market in order to exploit it for their own benefit. As China is not allowing western powers to have a free ride therefore in order to counter dimishing profits for their economies these imperial scavangers are looking for new soft targets and India provides them with a perfact opportunity.

#610 by premwalla

[The chunky one in the middle with the ``I can`t believe I just farted`` look.
The fat one on the right saying ``I use a heavy duty one.``
The one up front on the left, with the pretty teeth, is Yousuf Youhana]

ROTFL!! I tell you Salim, you are a riot!

#608, Balloo Khan Sahib,

{``Is it an all female team or are there a few males thrown in to correct the misconception that in Pakistan, there is no gender bias?``}

They are mostly females. Some doubts about a few:

The chunky one in the middle with the ``I can`t believe I just farted`` look.
The fat one on the right saying ``I use a heavy duty one.``
The one up front on the left, with the pretty teeth, is Yousuf Youhana

Pakitanis have to make a choice now............they are in a great danger of letting Taliban goons run the country.........

``Now, religious figures who once trained Taliban adepts in their madrassas have become powerful politicians.

``The people who created the Taliban are now effectively running half of Pakistan,`` said Samina Ahmed, an Islamabad representative from the International Crisis Group, a research organization based in Brussels.

Many Pakistanis worry that the MMA is trying to re-create Taliban rule. In June, the North-West Frontier assembly passed a law allowing religious ombudsmen to fine or jail people for conducting ``entertainment shows`` near mosques and ``indecent behavior at public places.``

Qazi Hussein Ahmed, who heads the dominant party in the MMA coalition, said that his group had criticized some extreme Taliban practices and that terrorist attacks on innocent civilians were prohibited by Islam. But he also said Kashmiri militants were justified in their ``holy war`` against India, and he implied the same of Taliban insurgents fighting the U.S.-backed government in Afghanistan.``

#606 by one-world

[Whatever it is they look happy]

Is it an all female team or are there a few males thrown in to correct the misconception that in Pakistan, there is no gender bias?

This last one about Karachi seems to be a toothpaste commercial. The beautiful teeth are a result of the pure clean drinking water that Karachiites enjoy.

Whatever it is they look happy

Another KHI beauty

Karachiites enjoying nightlife

Karachiites enjoying nightlife

#599 is for cayenne. Maybe the quality is missing, but progress is in the right direction. What we lack in quality we make up with violence.

Here is a picture of Karachi citizens relaxing in the streets

Now, a hard working immigrant to Karachi from Faisalabad.

Here is a picture of some kind of temple or place of warship

Here is a better one:

Here are some images of Karachi, my hometown in Pakiland.

#595 by Ajeya on August 5, 2005 10:07pm PT in reference to #578 by Romair
{``pet terrorists by financing it with money earned through ventures involving India reeks of an Al-Queda - style operation. I hope that the FBI is on your tail. ``}

Ajeya,
Not only is the FBI on his tail, it has it under microscopic surveillance. Also, Captain Romair is being investigated by the interfaith shinterfaith police for attempting to start his own Koresh/Waco/Jonestown type of a ``religion.``

Salim

#578 by Romair

[This is where the best outlet is to bring in people from India (who by the way, actually get paid less than Pakistanis). ]

I would suggest that you forget about India. Supporting the butchering of innocent Hindu men, women and children by your pet terrorists by financing it with money earned through ventures involving India reeks of an Al-Queda - style operation.

I hope that the FBI is on your tail.

Hello capt clueless...didn`t you tell us the sipah-e-sahaba was a terrorist group? So how come El-presidente has a catch-and-release program for these terrorists?

Musharraf`s Contradictory Crackdown on Radicals
Pakistani Groups Increase Power Despite a Ban

By N.C. Aizenman
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, August 5, 2005; A09

LANDI ARBAB, Pakistan -- As Pakistani security forces rounded up hundreds of suspected Islamic militants last week in the wake of the bomb attacks in London, Ibrahim Qazmi, a slightly built 28-year-old cleric with a wispy black beard, leaned on a pillow in his herbal remedy shop in northwest Pakistan and smiled skeptically.

In 2001, shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, Qazmi and scores of his associates in Sipah-i-Sahaba, or Army of the Prophet`s Followers, were arrested in a crackdown announced by Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s president, who vowed to crush the network of radical Islamic groups that had flourished in the country for years.

But just 10 days later, Qazmi said, he and the others were released without charges. Although their group was banned for fomenting sectarian violence, they simply changed its name and revived it. Their top leader was elected to the National Assembly, and Qazmi was elected to the legislature of the North-West Frontier Province, now dominated by fundamentalist Islamic parties preparing to establish a morals police force.

``So you see, despite the ban, we have only gotten stronger,`` Qazmi said with a chuckle.

Janab Mohtaram SA Sahib,
Aap ki inayat he :)
Salim

Re: # 591

Salim Saheb,

Zarra nawaji ke liye shukriya.

SA

Dakkin Asia Huzoor,

Janab,

Meri khushi aap se baateN kar ke.

Salim.

Thank you, Salim saheb

Southasian #585 and #586, {``Re: # 584 So you meant the no. 2 there? haha``}

That`s right. That`s right. :)

You are very perceptive. :)

Salim

#587, Arjun responding to Romair`s #578 {``You don`t know what you`re talking about...do you even know how much good people make in India....``}

That`s right. The recent story about Tata Consulting trying to go into a joint venture with a Paki firm and open a training site in Lahore is due to this disparity in wages. Indian salaries for IT have skyrocketed - thus making Pakistan a welcome resource for trained and cheap labor.

``If you speak the truth, you only have to say it once.``

Salim

#578 by Romair on August 5, 2005 8:06am PT


This is where the best outlet is to bring in people from India (who by the way, actually get paid less than Pakistanis).


You don`t know what you`re talking about...do you even know how much good people make in India....some of my friends who have been working for infosys are now $$ millionaires....not Rupee, $$...

Re: # 584 So you meant the no. 2 there? haha

Re: # 584 So you meant the no. 2 there? haha

Southasian #583,
As I understand it, the word ``Mian`` in Lucknow and other areas of UP refers to several things:
1. Mian can refer to young noble lad - e.g. son of landlord
2. Mian can refer to a woman`s husband - e.g Un ke miyan ne yeh kaha
3. Mian can be used affectionately or sarcastically to denote overly polite - e.g. kiya haal hen Miyan Sahib ke?
4. People call their parrots Mithoo MiaN

I read that in Gujarat, Mian is used by Hindus to refer to Muslims.

Salim

Re: # 582 Chauhan Saheb, Could you tell me about the tehzib of this word Mian please? I hope its not derogatory.

rsridhar,
I thought that Indians, especially Hindus, were very tolerant and provided refuge to those in need. Several days ago, I publicly apologized to you, on one of these FP boards, that I am sorry for using a nic similar to yours. I also explained my reason for doing that - circumventing Chowk Staff censors who want to muzzle my viewpoints. I also stated that I selected your name, because of its honorable status and friendliness.
Nevertheless, you chose to ignore my appeal and have resorted to defensive and arrogant insults. Too bad, BHAINS KE AGE BEEN BAJANA .....:)

Salim

Sri miyan,
You should feel honored that someone would want to have their nic resemble your name.
Nothing sinister mister. But then, I never realized you were a jihadist when it came to your own name.
Salim

#559 by rsridhar on August 4, 2005 4:33pm PT
re: this rsribhar character
Just for records, this rsribhar character is someone totally different from me.
Sridhar


NOTICE TO ALL.

Just because this rsridhar character attempts to walk on two legs, pretends to have a brain, and is extremely proud of his South Indian name, he is really totally different from me. Of course, I am not responsible for any debts, promises, or contracts incurred by this primate. :)

Salim.

#560 by rsridhar on August 4, 2005 4:48pm PT
re:#519 by rsribhar
Salim Miyan,
``Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.``
Perhaps one without a brain!
Even a south indian like me, who grew up in Delhi watching Bollywood movies, learnt enough Urdu to know how to pronounce not just Zalim but also words like Zakhm, Zameer etc etc. Only u morons think your language is the greatest and nobody else can speak it.
BTW, Salim miyan, your assuming a name similar to my own is in bad taste.
Sridhar``}

Sridhar,
You get an ``A`` in Urdu diction. Now, get yourself that brain you mentioned.

BTW, you are not entirely correct. The majority of Pakis cannot speak Urdu correctly - yes the Urdu language is one of the richest in the world, because it borrows at will from Hindustani, Arabic, Farsi, and even some Turkish.

So, having a name sounding like yours is in bad taste. I will defer to you on that. I never thought that your name was in bad taste, but if you say so ...

Also, Sri, I am not your MIAN. :)
Salim.

Mantolive #566: Thanks for the info......

I have done a great detail of research in this area, regarding Pakistan. In fact, that is all I have been doing for around six months. Different sectors have different applications that are in use, in Pakistan (and in the rest of the world). The Pakistani financial sector (banks, insurance companies, etc.) are primarily Oracle. With some SAS. And some little known products from Singapore etc. However, Oracle is leading and will continue to lead, in Pakistan, in this space, due to various reasons (too detailed to mention here). Specifically now with their purchase of PeopleSoft.

The main issues in Pakistan, at the moment, are a lack of skill-sets. There is hardly anyone trained to implement these products. However, the govt. and the various private companies, due to the boom in the economy, now have a lot of money to spend. Anyone in Pakistan, with even intermediate level expertise in the ERP products, can make a fortune (by Pakistani standards). This is where the best outlet is to bring in people from India (who by the way, actually get paid less than Pakistanis).

I am, personally, not an Oracle person, technically. However, all my research indicates that Oracle is the best shot in Pakistan, specifically in the financial space..........

This thread promises to touch 1000 now!

Re: # 574


That too makes sense....

Shankar has proved to be quite the Clarence Darrow then...

Manto says,

The fact of the matter is that we (Rozaiba and I) are the true inheritors of the progressive spirit of Iqbal`s message ... much better than Iqbal Academy or people
like you who selectively quote him for your own ends.

So lets see what these true inheritors have to say about Iqbal.

Manto on another Board writes,

`` Rozaiba...
Tone it down with the Bala-bashing man... remember Basant annually... wink. We don`t want to be permanently banned.
But great points as usual... Iqbal was a man of his times... most of it sadly is irrelevant to our present condition. ``The true end of government`` is in my opinion a much more relevant book of ideology for Pakistan than Iqbal`s philosophy. ``

And the true inheritors accuse others of ``selectively qoute him``.


btw, those great points that Manto is agreeing are

`` However, let`s take this from the reference of ol man Bala. Ol man Bala is an Indian poet. The Mahmud`s and Taimur`s have pillaged regions that were part of his `hindustan` and run off elsewhere - unlike say the Mughal dynasty etc.

What fascination is he trying to arouse in the Indian Muslim using such figures?

The problem is that glorifying such figures is part of the larger attempt to ignite pan-islamic delusions. It is these delusions that convulate the perceptions of history. ``

For more truths of Manto

http://naseeb.com/naseebvibes/talkbacks.php?tbSortBy=&newOffset=10&start=1&aid=3787#talkback

Re: # 573 Sorry, I thought he put you on a kind of Monkey Trial here. I think Haroon should be more worried about this lacuna rather than worrying about what the teacher said about Eid. However, I have no intention of raking up the issue again.

Re: # 572

What different reason...

I mentioned it for the same... by not teaching kids evolution (After the 1980s atleast) we have kept them illiterate and out of sync with the rest of the world...

Haroon I am sure did study evolution as did I ... given our privileged backgrounds.

Just read a bit about the `Monkey Trial` Manto just mentioned. Interesting how an Islamiyat teacher would react to Darwin`s theory. I know here he mentioned it for a different reason.

re#10

Repeating my reply to one khansaab in another thread. This is apt for haroonellahi aswell

Alas, yet another Paki living in self delusion! One never ceases to bump into these diehard types. It is the “we ruled over you” obsession gripping the likes of you that has already taken Pakistan down the drain over the years. Always trying to flex its muscles, thinking that India is just a walk over ( agli namaz Dilli ki Ja’ama masjid mein parhengay ), getting defeated, nay, ousted, routed and dismembered, yet ready to go for another round, like the famous defeated pehalwan who is forever dreaming of chitt karaoing the one that floored him. One just wonders how long you guys are going to get beaten, aren’t you ever going to stop? We are told that in your military academies the gentleman cadets have to take an oath that they shall avenge the defeat of 1971. Ab buss karo! Khansaheb,you have become fat on crumbs thrown at you by the Saudis and other Arabs, and we suppose therefrom this masti . But for how long are you going to keep begging these Sheiks? You renamed Lyallpur as Faisalabad to express your gratitude to the Saudis ( how subservient a qaum can get?), you have named a stadium in Lahore after Gaddafi during a visit when he is said to have come close to the IndoPak border and shouted abuses and spat at India. Remember, the Arab oil is running out, so the Arabs are not going to indulge in a terrorist state for long ( Pakis are suspected of involvement in terror attacks in Arab countries, maybe as a mark of gratitude to the Arabs for their largesses?).
The names of Ghazni, Ghori etc. that you and your ilk keep repeating, for heaven’s sake, cannot be appropriated by you as your own. Your forefathers were Indians and Hindus at that (your mother tongue which is either Punjabi, Sindhi or Avadhi/Bhojpuri/brajwasi(Urdu) clearly establishes that) and not these foreign raiders, looters and rapists. You are us. Your real forefathers also partook of cow urine, so you have it in your blood as much as the Indians !Your great great grandmothers, great great great grand mothers and great great great great grand mothers ( go back for 1200 years, as per your count) were raped by these outsiders and their progeny changed their religion ( obviously not voluntarily). So how much ever you try to appropriate to yourself the ancestry of the attacking hordes from Central Asia, you are nothing but Indians who turned Paki.

As far as defecating crowds, a friend from Central Asia still remembers that he cannot get out of his system the stench of human dung he experienced during his visit to Karachi recently.
For your kind information, as per the latest UN statistics, India’s per capita income is USD 550 where as Pakistan’s is USD 480.

Re: # 566

Romair,

While I am not sure the nature of your investment in Pakistan... Prime Minister Aziz visited Malaysia and decided to go SAP route for business management software... The Pakistan Software Export Board is now heavily investing in training its personnel in SAP... Oracle I am afraid is old news though it has massive implementation in the accounting sector.

BTW... it is good to see that the Jehadi spirit has dissipated making room for such secular endeavors as education ... etc

My advice to haroon and other like minded fellows... read what Shankar said and then read up on the famous Monkey Trial from 1925... to see how great nations ought to progress...

The problem with Mr Elahi is that he doesn`t care to read what one says but mouths off on what he imagines they are saying. Now he is quoting ``Goerring`` to prove a point about those he doesn`t agree with. Perhaps he doesn`t know who Goerring was...

May I relieve you Mr Elahi of the burden you have unnecessarily taken upon yourself. The word elite used in post 10 was very much a sarcastic note. I define the word elite quite differently .... to me its a positive word.... You are merely what I call hereditary rich... while your friend Don is the scion of the old order, probably without the noble values that old order might have carried.

The beauty of the Haveli is that more than 5000 people come to that party and I happen to be personally friends with some of Mr Yusuf Sallahuddin`s nephews. Knowing the ``Khandan-e-Iqbal``, I would not describe them as necessarily belonging to the old order of the hereditary rich. Iqbal was very much middle class and Mian Sallahuddin was an inner city strongman... they are to Lahore basically what Italians and the Irish are to New York. There is no bar on the middle class becoming elite or rich.. which is why I like the term Bourgeoisie better... the issue is not with the business class, professionals etc making it big...


Escapist,

Both Rozaiba and I are much bigger fans of Ol` Man Bala who we admire for his Ijtehadi reformist thought. We criticise him for being too ambigious in his poetry (but NOT in his philosophy) and giving you, the kind who abused him during his life time, reason to own him as their own... The fact of the matter is that we (Rozaiba and I) are the true inheritors of the progressive spirit of Iqbal`s message ... much better than Iqbal Academy or people
like you who selectively quote him for your own ends.

-YLH

Re: # 546

arjun_M,

You are a noble descendant of Shivaji...

You carry on his noble tradition of giving these Paki katlus regular kick-in-the butts...when they spew bs on Chowk...

Keep up the good work, pal;

My perspicacity says its Haroon`s way of saying ...
``I.m sorry I was an arrogant jerk``

I`ll be leaving beloved Bombay in a few hrs.
I`m PROUD at the way millions of Bombayites took the freak monsoon flood in their stride....
And STILL...MILLIONS of them reported to work everyday!!

If its reflective of our nations` ``WORK ETHIC``..
I have no DOUBT that this Holy Land will be a super-power in a few decades..
(Hopefully in my lifetime)

CHATTRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ KI JAY!!!!!

Goodbye (for now)...
my beloved Chowkies!!:)))

Godot #various: You had mentioned you are an Oracle consultant. For the past four months, I have, with a couple of Pakistani and Indian acquitances, been planning a software company in Pakistan. We think this is the time to get in on the ground floor for a partnership between Indian and Pakistani companies......It will be heavily Oracle focused. If a couple of things work out, I will go back to Pakistan..........Would you be willing to go back, and join us? i.e. are you willing to walk the walk for the betterment of Pakistan.............

Godot #511: Yes, I think on the whole we do agree, on most things.

You have an interesting bio. Quite the self-made person. Which is impressive. I thought you were my age. Seems like you are quite a bit older. Perhaps ten years........I was able to pick up the fact that you have not spend too much of your life in Pakistan. This was quite obvious to me, from your comments and your article..........Which is why I asked you......Apparently only ten years, and that too as a kid. And in Karachi only.....``Since then, barring four short visits to Pakistan and as many to Canada, I have lived in America, my adopted country, continuously.``

Two points I would like to highlight:

- Please study the history of Sufism in Punjab and Sind. Study it in great detail. Study the historical cultural development of Islam, within the boundaries of the Punjabi and Sindhi environmetns. Study the works of the Bulleh Shah, Shah Latif, Shah Hussian, Sachal Sarmast, etc. etc. Go deep into them........

- Also if you get the chance, try to live in rural Pakistan for a year or two. Outside of Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad - which are all artificial Pakistan. Rural Pakistan is the hearland of Pakistan..........Anyone who has not lived there doesn`t understand Pakistan........

After that, you will realize why mullah-type Islam can never establish itself in Pakistan. And why over hundreds of years, it has never established itself. The only successess it has had is when Pakistan govt. has tried to tie itself too closely with the USA foreign policies, in its various adventures in the region.........Please keep in mind that Sheeda Tulli (Sheikh Rashid) - a bachelor who is famous for his various affairs with film actresses - alone, won as many NA seats (two) as every single religious party in Pakistan, combined, was able to win......After 54 years history of MMA, this is all it was able to achieve in Pakistan (2 seats), despite the fact that Pakistan`s more secular govts. have been massively corrupt and incompetent........And as I keep saying, had the USA not attacked Afghanistan in such a manner, it would still be at 2..........

This is despite the fact that during that time, Pakistan was surrounded on all sides by religious govts. - there was a religious govt. in Afghanistan (Taliban), one in Iran (Khatami) and one in India (BJP).........

This is why mullahs don`t scare me, as far as Pakistan is concerned. And why I think they are only a mere nuisance that will disappear the moment a competent non-mullah/non-feudal govt. appears. Anyone who understands the heartland of Pakistan, knows mullahs have no basis there.......They will only appear as a reaction to the USA, or if people are completely fed up with feudal parties (even after that, the mullahs stay will be quite short-lived). Which is why I am against Pakistan doing everything the USA wants..........It should only do some things, and never against the wishes of its own awam.....

Go to Data Darbar and see the crowd. Go to concerts of Abida Parveen singing Bulleh Shah. And see how mast people get. Go listen to Attaullah Niazi singing in an outdoor concert in backwards Mianwali. Go to any of the urs and see people drunk on bhang, dancing away, taking Allah`s name......that is the ethos and Islamic core of an overwheling % of Pakistan. Quite a bit different from the Taliban......

The Quran and science

On the mountains being like paperweights:

Q. 16:15 And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest IT [the earth] should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves; Y. Ali



Q. 31:10 He created the heavens without any pillars THAT YE CAN SEE; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. Pickthall



On the sky falling on your head:

Q. 22:65 Do you not see that Allah has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the earth and the ships running in the sea by His command? And He withholds the heaven FROM FALLING ON THE EARTH except with His permission; most surely Allah is Compassionate, Merciful to men. Shakir



On the merits of the Flat Earth Society (with the mountains as pegs):

Q. 88:20 Nor even how the earth has been FLATTENED out?


Q. 78:6-7 Have WE not made the earth AS A BED, And the mountains AS PEGS? Sher Ali



On Allah building the heavens without any cracks:

Q. 50:6-7 What, have they not beheld heaven above them, how We have built it, and decked it out fair, AND IT HAS NO CRACKS? And the earth -- We stretched it forth, and cast on it firm mountains, and We caused to grow therein of every joyous kind ... Arberry



More later....

:-)

Re: # 513

Mr Elahi,

Since I have so RUDELY invited myself to Chowk....

{{Introduction of Chemistry, Physics, Liberal Art Subjects, non-Islamic literature, and `Civic Studies` co-existing peacefully with Islamic studies should be the norm.}}

Just how da` f*ck does Pakistani Islam EXIST PEACEFULLY with Science...

The first Paki scientist who says
``Gee...looks like Darwin`s Survival of the Fittest
or the ``Theory of Evolution`` makes sense..``

He will be arrested for blasphemy. While in jail he will be murdered by a dukkar Paki fellow inmate. That inmate will be given a ``mullah`` pardon for being a valiant mujahadeen of Islam.
And the ``cycle of Paki life``...
will go on & on...
till your blighted nation drowns in the gutter it has dug for itself.

While all you ``islam ka mashoor pehelwans`` are drowning in your own filth...
You can collectively gasp

---

``IT WAS A HINDU_JEWISH_CHRISTIAN_BHUDDIST`` conspiracy!!!

Re: # 511

godot,

{{I may not live in Pakistan anymore and have given up its citizenship, but I do have a great deal of affinity for Pakistan and am a well-wisher of that country.}}

You tell him; kid!!!
...
besides what gives ``his highness`` the right to speak for Pakistan?

He`s just an ISI mole who hi-tailed it out of Amrika, when 911 happened..
(Maybe the FBI has a file on him)
& sought refuge in a rat-hole in Canukistan..

His ``cover strory``...I work for an Indian..
I meet 1000s of Indians everyday,
I know everything about everything...
has been blown to smithereens!

{{. I do not consider Pakistani mullahs to be “the” problem for Pakistan, either. I just shudder at the thought what would follow if they grab power in Pakistan.}}

Trust me...
the army, the ISI & the Azaaaad Kashmiris have been sleeping in the same bed as the mullahs.
Each party has been USING each other, for their OWN shameless agenda

Each side seems to think that ``the other`` isnt the main problem...
they use each other to have an orgy with the innocent awaam of Pakistan...

Yup!
They are the TRUE patriots of Pakistan...
Gee.....the ``smell`` his EVIL patriotism...
wafts all the way to Amrikistan...

Its because of BUTTfakhrs like him...
innocent Pakis are being harrassed in Amrika everyday..

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 507

{{Hai ram! yeh kya keh rahe ho!!
Mere dil ke huzaar tukde kar ke rakh diye, zalim. Aab mein iss jindagi se kya ummedein rakhun! }}

hahaha!

Since you are in such a self-flagellating mode; my friend...

May I HUMBLY suggest...
its time to SLIT your wrists

If you cant handle profanity like ``F*ck`` & ``s*it``
may I humbly suggest...
leave Chowk & go to your nearest temple & purify your prudish soul

but thanks anyway for the entertainment..
busy shrinks can take a vacation, once in a while,
to beloved Bombay...

& since itsso rainy & miserable in BELOVED Bombay...

its been fun f*cking with dull Northie minds...
like yours

re:#519 by rsribhar
Salim Miyan,
``Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.``
Perhaps one without a brain!
Even a south indian like me, who grew up in Delhi watching Bollywood movies, learnt enough Urdu to know how to pronounce not just Zalim but also words like Zakhm, Zameer etc etc. Only u morons think your language is the greatest and nobody else can speak it.
BTW, Salim miyan, your assuming a name similar to my own is in bad taste.
Sridhar

re: this rsribhar character
Just for records, this rsribhar character is someone totally different from me.
Sridhar

Haroon,

Thats an intersting point!

Mantolives on some other board was even suggesting to Rozaiba that they should stop criticizing Dr Iqbal (Bala as they say) because it can ban their entry to haveli.

Kitna mauqa shinaas hai.

Manto is our hero.
Manto for president!

Since I am eltisit filth, I will take my Indian guest(s) in eltisit filth, introduce them to eltisit filth, and take them to elitisit parties as well (Why un-elitisit ppl were at the Havali i fail to understand, since they claim to be naik middle class?) and then later interact with the un-eltisit un-filthy Pakistani Chowkis aswell (Mantolives, Hellboundetc). hehe

nahin arjun you definately have to come. Just email me if the scene develops. Ciao.

Cuckoo`s...name sounds like a sardar da dhaba.

I see a great opportunity for indians here...we can create a little competition between manto and haroon for who treats Indians better and exploit the situation to our advantage....dekho, manto offered me Cocoo`s or is it Cucko`s, free trip to Nanakan sahib, oh dholi da naaN bhull giya...a trip to my relative`s villages close to border, atrip to Hiramandi and Anarkalli bazaar..and ..of course duncan donuts...if anyone can up that offer, I am all yours.:-)

Re: # 533
Aslam777 - Since you have an interest in stock markets, and your decision to hold shares that you like forever is in synch with the philosophy of other master investors like Benjamin Graham who was the mentor of Warren Buffet (the world`s most succesful investor), I recommend that you read the book, `The Intelligent Investor: The Definitive Book On Value Investing, Revised Edition by Benjamin Graham`. You will retire as a rich man!

#531 Arjun, I actually want you to visit Pakistan and be my guest. Why don`t you consider the offer? As in, for many Indians and American-of-Indian-origin, it`s a once-in-a-life-time-offer.

---

Haroon bhai...I am glad you did not write last long phrase in bold letters...arjun te pehlaN ee dareya hoyea te tusi uttoN once-a-life-time di ratt layee ay.:-)

Friend, #550 {``BTW, I hope you only study incest and do not go any further.. ``}

Dost, too late, I already married my second cousin. :)

#539 by haroonellahi on August 4, 2005 2:01pm PT

as harimau`s pointed out in the past, that`s a myth...You can check out the history of IIT Kharagpur

Salim #541
Language spoken in Old Delhi and Lucknow areas is somewhere between Pakistan`s arabic Urdu and our Sanskritized hindi. So it contains lot of such words.
BTW, I hope you only study incest and do not go any further..

Godot #543
This is precisely the reason I yelled at shrink to stop instigating the kids. Let kids fight and than make it up. No use in unnecessary instigating them..

#545, {``Arjun, I am going to be in Pakistan for till at least next year`s June,``}

Another unfortunate innocent casualty of 9/11 and the London bombings. Our young hero cannot get a visa immediately.
Perhaps, a recommendation from Jenny McCarthy ...

Hermann Goering famously told an interviewer during his trial at Nuremberg that:

``People don`t want to go to war...But, after all, it`s the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it`s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it`s a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country.``

Just picked that up some where, thought I`d share it!

Arjun, #546 {``In any case, you can search through my posts and see where I`ve expressed a personal loathing of pakis... ``}

I would tend to agree with you. Unfortunately, I cannot make the same claim. :)

Salim

#544 by Aslam777 on August 4, 2005 2:17pm PT

I did qualify that...under the right circumstances...

In any case, you can search through my posts and see where I`ve expressed a personal loathing of pakis...

obviously not a big fan of the jihad support but without using a cliche, i have many pakistani friends..

Arjun, I am going to be in Pakistan for till at least next year`s June, since after that I will be going abroad for college and would visit only in the vacations.

However, for the next 11 months I am mostly going to be in Pakistan(besides my proposed Model United Nations trip to Beijing, Mumbai, and Colombo), so whenever your plan materializes just let me know.

h_ellahi@hotmail.com

Godot..Arjun was just trying to be nice. A visit to Pakistan is ill advised in the post-London bombing world.

If Arjun is talking about accepting an invitation to meet Haroon and Yasser, then Chowk has succeeded in its mission impossible: turn sworn enemies into friends. Pakistan and India do indeed have a bright future together, and Chowk must take a huge credit for it!

Congratulations, Chowk!!!

India`s progress in IT is not because of IITs but because of the proliferation of private engineering colleges in the 1990s. IITs have always been there...but cater to only 2000-3000 students , most of who go abroad. Most of the recruitments made by Indian companies come from humble private engineering colleges like mine - which collectively today produce over 300,000 graduates each year.

Friend #522 {``What urdu! Mardood mein to hindi mein likh raha tha. Zalim is 100% khalis hindi;-) ``}

OK, if you insist, you can have `Zalim` as a 100% Khalis Hindi word. Just to let you know, you used three words - Urdu (Turkish), Mardood (Farsi, I think!), Zalim (100% Arabic from the root word ZLM and associated with Zulum, Mazloom, etc..)

You didn`t know that I was an entymologist. HA HA :) Yes, I study incest.

Salim

#539

premji dropped out of Stanford EE, out of all the big businessmen today ony the Infosys guy Nilekani has an IIT-BTech.

Adi Godrej was a JEE rank No 2, but the preferred to go to MIT.

The U.S offered Indian students X amount of seats to attend M.I.T. Nehru responded by saying that he would prefer that M.I.T, the U.S Government, and the Indian Government, all three band together and create an M.I.T-styled institution in India. The outcome was the Indian Institute of Technology I believe, whose torch-bearers today are people such as Premji and other Indian businessmen.

Pakistan however prefered to utilize the offer in a different manner and just sent a couple of students there, and I do not know what the nature of the selection-process was.

Indians think at least 50 to 100 years in the future.

b-school means business school.

And thank you for the offer of hospitality. Under better circumstances, I`m looking forward to meeting people like nhk, freozek, you and even manto...

RIL and UTI-Mastershares were the pioneers in India. They started the trend of getting people to invest in the share market and mutual funds. Today we have a internnational class stock exchange and 1000s of mutual fund schemes from over 100 companies competing for attention...

Re: # 531

``I do not like to remain hostage to the past.``

Haroon, those are indeed words of deep wisdom.

The other great investment my dad made in my name was to invest in UTI-Mastershares (mutual funds). An extraordinary success story - just like RIL. Damn I feel so rich ;)

Yes Godot, I think there was a massive communication breakdown. Supreme Court has 12 objecitons to Hasba Bill, did you hear about it?

Funny Reliance should get a mention ....my dad bought 250 Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) shares in my name when I was born. Today because of free bonus shares issued by the company over the years , I have today 900+ RIL shares in my name , and so have a personal interest in the RIL story. Now that the company has split , the share value has reached a highest ever of Rs. 750 (more or less) , and looks set to cross Rs.1000.

Yesterday , during the AGM of RIL , Anil Ambani annouced that for every 100 shares of RIL , the share holders will be given 7 shares of REL (Reliance Energy - Rs. 650) , 5 shares of RCL (Reliance Capita - Rs. 470l) and 100 shares of Reliance Communication Futuristics Limited (Rs.40 , I think..the value of this one in particular will jump like crazy by Mar , 2006 when this company will be opened to stock market for trading).

So what my dad bought for a just Rs.5000 odd way back in 1986 is today worth almost Rs.800,000 !!!

Since I dont intend to sell even a single Reliance share until my very last breath , its gonna be really interesting to see how much bigger this investment becomes when I am 30 , 40 , 50 and 60.

#530

yup, mukesh was at UD, bugger doesnt give much money to the school though, just gave a crore once.

Arjun, I actually want you to visit Pakistan and be my guest. Why don`t you consider the offer? As in, for many Indians and American-of-Indian-origin, it`s a once-in-a-life-time-offer.

B-school, meaning Boarding school? I am curious as to where they did their undergraduate from! Reliance has been rated as one of India`s best over 1 billion dollar companies.



Yes Hamdani, that is what I was refering to. And your comment were you accused me of `wreaking havoc in Pakistan` started my retaliatory coments to you. But now it is a closed chapter. I do not like to remain hostage to the past.

says here that Anil Ambani did a Bsc from bombay university....which means he partied in one of the south bombay colleges before he went to wharton.

Says here that Mukesh Ambani did a bachelors in chemical engineering from bombay university(UDCT?!?)

Re: # 513 & 523

Haroon,

Yours, Yasser`s, and my thoughts about Pakistan are quite similar and we are on the same page. I think hostilities expressed were due to miscommunication and frustration. I’m sure you guys are smarter and know better than what appears between you two.

Anyway, you say, ``Pakistan should settle for peace for the next 20 to 25 years in order to make sure it`s own house does not fall apart. Kashmir issue should be revisited when our economic and military muscle is strong enough to convince India to be flexible...``

That is precisely the Indian argument: put Kashmir on the back burner and make it a secondary issue, not a primary one, in India-Pakistan relation. Kashmir will take care of itself once both countries are at peace and are comfortable with each other. You, however, have a motive different than what the Indians are up to. But putting Kashmir on the back burner for now is definitely the way to move forward in relations with India.

Godot...

Don`t know if you check the email you`ve listed on your writers` page...

Please check it if you don`t.

#526

they went to B-school at Stanford and Wharton, but where did they go before that?

It`s ambani... Mukesh Ambani went to stanford and anil ambani went to wharton. They`re both worth around 3 billion $ each.

ArjunM,

This is true. And sadly this mentality has radicalised even the most secular of Pakistani forces- the Pakistan Air Force which once prided itself on being inclusive and secular given the high percentage of christians in its ranks.

The most scared I felt was when I discussed world politics a few years ago with a fighter pilot, who was a senior of mine at PAF College Sargodha... amazingly (and perhaps logically) at PAF College he used to be the most non-nationalist type ... I remember him even saying stuff like ``Partition was wrong`` etc.

3 years ago when I exchanged a couple of emails... this great fighter pilot told me that it was the duty of every Muslim to wage Jehad against all non-Muslims especially America and Israel. I asked him if other fighter Pilots felt that way... he said every single one of them was a true Muslim today...

I tell you the reason for decline was that Zia eradicated Bars from the forces... Exorbitant quantities of Alcohol and some good ol` nationalism kept these gentlemen in line...


Salim,
Agreed.

Haroon,
Feel free to produce the exact post where I supposedly insulted you or Don which elicited his response #20. Unless you are referring to this:

``#10 by Mantolives on July 28, 2005 1:43pm PT
Re: # 9 Well clearly if this is the state of the elite...

Ah well. ``

So I am not supposed to say even that much or else you would jump to personal attacks or justify them?

Did you guy`s hear about the 25,000 karore expanion Reliance Group is doing in it`s Oil Refinery? It will make Reliance Oil Refinery the largest oil refinery in the world!

What do you guys know about the Amdhani family? Which institutions have the two brother attained their degrees from?

Pakistan should settle for peace for the next 20 to 25 years in order to make sure it`s own house does not fall apart. Kashmir issue should be revisited when our economic and military muscle is strong enough to convince India to be flexible...

#519
``BTW, we caught you, you said ``Zalim.`` Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.`` So, what excuse do you have for your proficiency in Urdu?``

What urdu! Mardood mein to hindi mein likh raha tha. Zalim is 100% khalis hindi;-)

#520
``Mr. Elahi blooms into a Jenny``

please I know the boy has put on some weight, but do you think he will bloom all the way to a 36D?

#506, Manto {``It is completely up to Mr Elahi... its his crossroads...``}

For all of our sakes, let`s hope that Mr. Elahi blooms into a Jenny and not a Joe McCarthy. :)

Salim

#507, Friend,
Yaar, dost, please do not commit frienlicide. Hostility was just mentioned as a contrast to your nic. Nothing sinister, mister. I was just having fun.
BTW, we caught you, you said ``Zalim.`` Any blue-blooded Hiindu would say ``Jalim.`` So, what excuse do you have for your proficiency in Urdu?

Good to interact with you. Sir, you are funny and witty. That`s all that matters. Being right is no one`s right. :)

Salim

Capt Clueless...say it ain`t so...

manto....is this true??

Letter in TFT

Army hands

Sir,

The recent government crackdown on religious seminaries is once again too little, too late. We have been hearing about General Musharraf’s enlightened moderation for quite some time but so far, ground realities are quite different. If he is sincere about making the country a liberal, secular and democratic state, like the rest of the civilised world, then why doesn’t he start this cleanup with the very institution which radicalised these madrassas in the first place: the Pakistan Army. One can visit any military base in Pakistan and see Quranic verses and religious slogans inviting Muslims to wage jihad against infidels displayed everywhere. Why can’t he do something about it?

The recent decision by the US to transfer nuclear technology to India, while denying Pakistan the same opportunity, is hardly surprising. Musharraf stresses that our nuclear weapons are in safe hands but nobody trusts him. The reason is that these “safe hands” have repeatedly toppled civilian governments and are still refusing to come under civilian rule, as in other functioning democracies. No wonder the Indian prime minister, in his recent visit to the US, exploited the current situation in Pakistan and raised concern about our nuclear program. Postponing the Pakistani PM’s visit to the US in order to avoid further disgrace will not help to improve our image abroad.

Our military rulers must understand that in order gain trust and respect in the eyes of the world community, we must not only terminate religious extremism at all levels of society but also restore true democracy in our country as soon as possible.

Shahid Ahson,

Wah.

GODot #505, {``The article itself is quite serious. However, this board is bursting with fun ...``}

I agree, my friend. You were so sincere in presenting the choices and discussing the options. Regardless of the ensuing circus atmosphere, you have managed to stir up debate and loosened up creative juices all over Chowk. Anytime you pass 500+ posts, you have succeeded. I thank you for your compliments and just to let you know, I always enjoyed your own humor and wit on Chowk UP.

Don`t worry about the party on your turf. There are some people who will have their fiesta anywhere, even at a funeral.

Thanks,
Salim

#513 by haroonellahi on August 4, 2005 11:33am PT


The solution to the problem of the Mullahs is quite simple.


sorry....you`re trying to have your cake and eat it too...First you say Kashmir is a really really important cause...unfortunately for you, your army has shown it`s incapable of taking Kashmir by force...the only option you have is the pinpricks from the jihadis...and to produce these jihadis, you need more madrassahs where they teach jihad...It doesn`t matter that YOU don`t support militancy for the kashmir cause.....your government does...

The Kashmir cause is a HUGE anchor around your neck...

death by a thousand cuts has become suicide by a thousand self-inflicted wounds...don`t believe me...just look at the newscasts of el-presidente squirming when trying to defend the London bombers pakistani connection...

Godot:
Very nice article.

Liked your definition of secular Islam, i guess any secular religion could have the same definition.

Raja

An interesting albeit offtopic op-ed..

The shift in US policy


By Tanvir Ahmad Khan

THERE has already been considerable comment in these columns on the recently announced Indo-US defence pact and the new US policy on nuclear collaboration with India. The main reason for revisiting these developments is to present a slightly different perspective.

There is an air of deja vu about the Pakistani concern that the sub-continental balance of power has once again been threatened by India’s greatly enhanced access to sophisticated military hardware and nuclear technology from the United States. The alarm bells are ringing partly because there was only a blurred focus on the process that led India and the United States to the present level of strategic cooperation. India was making steady progress in freeing its relations with Washington as, indeed, with other western states, from what George Perkovich, the author of ‘India’s Nuclear Bomb’, once described as that ‘infamous hyphen’ that had connected India and Pakistan in the calculations of outside powers since 1947. Indian diplomacy had increasingly challenged this hyphenated approach to South Asia.

The nuclear tests of 1998 gave a new lease of life to the traditional equation as strategic parity seemed to outweigh growing disparities in virtually all other fields. Perkovich had followed Kenneth Waltz’s criteria to determine if India was a major power and argued that a state’s power can be understood as a combination of its capacity to influence others to behave as it wants them to and, conversely, to resist the unwelcome influence of others. He was not convinced that India had already attained the status of a major power. India’s failure to browbeat Pakistan in the ten-month long military standoff reinforced this perception. India rightly concluded that its ongoing dialogue with the United States had to be intensified to upgrade its conventional as well as strategic capability.

Ever since the nuclear tests, the United States has maintained a continuous though clearly differentiated engagement with New Delhi and Islamabad. Experts like George Perkovich had assumed that India would not be able to radically alter the US stand on the nuclear issue because of the stringent US non-proliferation legislation. They are not exactly thrilled by the latest decision of President Bush.

But Washington Post’s Jim Hoagland has read the dynamics of the US policy in the era of neo-conservative dominance more accurately. Hailing the new “visionary bilateral agreement” on nuclear cooperation with India as “the first important accomplishment of George W. Bush presidency,” he considers the accord as a demonstration of a security strategy that “holds that the nature of regimes, rather than the nature of weapons they possess, will determine their relations with Washington.” Pakistan, he thinks, occupies a difficult and highly dangerous, middle ground for US interests. India now follows Israel in benefiting from this arbitrary interpretation of NPT and the US law.

There have been two dominant trends in the US policy towards South Asia since the Clinton era. In Pakistan’s case, the initial emphasis was on internal political and economic reforms, relations with the Taliban and pressure to get it to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty as well as accept a fissile material cut-off for future. Driven by the need to punish Afghanistan for the great atrocity of 9/11, President Bush enlisted Pakistan as the most committed ally in the war against terror.

The revised policy recognized the need to enhance Pakistan’s military capability — largely in the context of the anti-terrorist campaign. It also attached high priority to cultural and educational modernization to ensure that Pakistan does not become another Afghanistan. This was an intensive but essentially limited engagement with little relevance to the realignment of global power structure.

The decision to help transform India into a major global power had an altogether different context. The ideologues of the Bush era have tirelessly argued that the immense disparity in the military power of the United States and all other ‘major powers’ entitles it to pursue policies of unipolarity and unilateralism, be it the doctrine of pre-emptive intervention, Kyoto Protocols or the International Criminal Court.

It is, however, easy to talk about hegemonic doctrines but much more difficult to limit the dispersal of power, especially of the economic kind. The rise of other states and, more ominously, the increasing disruptive capability of non-state actors make for an unstable hegemony, an inconclusive imperium. Even the United States cannot dispense with the Bismarckian paradigm of the hub and spokes; it needs to ensure that emerging powers do not upset it. India’s self-image as a state that has outgrown the limitations of an Asian sub-region makes it a principal candidate for an alliance with a superpower asserting itself as the most powerful empire of human history.

Condoleeza Rice speaks of the United States’ relations with three major Asian powers—- Japan, South Korea and India as providing the “strategic context” in which Chinese ambitions could be restrained. This is an unfair view of China as it ensures its global eminence not by projecting military power but mostly by its spectacular economic success and its scrupulous adherence to the UN Charter(dude..ever heard of tibet?) . China’s unflagging commitment to export-led economic development gives it a great stake in international peace and stability.

Nevertheless, the new US policy towards India continues to be justified as an effort to build India as a countervailing power and a potential military ally of the United States in the inevitable confrontation with China. Obviously, the nuclear component of the new India policy would have a smoother passage through the Congress if China was painted as a potential foe.

The crystal ball that one can gaze into at this point of time shows intense competition and rivalry but no Sino-US or Sino-India military confrontation. Taiwan, perhaps the most contentious issue, will become a flashpoint only in the unlikely event of Washington encouraging it to declare independence. The recent Chinese formulation of ‘one country two shores’ strengthens the hands of Taiwanese opposed to severing links with the mainland. Furthermore, the economic interdependence between the US and China has now reached a level where conflict has become almost unaffordable.

Similarly, the Sino-Indian territorial dispute may take time for resolution but carries little risk of a resort to the use of force. Meanwhile, burgeoning trade, expected to increase from the present $12 billion to $ 100 billion, will always militate against India joining any military adventure against China. There is no gamble here on the part of the United States — only well calculated moves to ensure that India becomes an essential pillar of the American strategic architecture for Asia and not a member of a coalition of major powers prejudicial to American interests. The chances are that the US will protect its position by modulating its harsh unilateralism and settling for an acceptable global equilibrium propped up by India, China and other major powers. Pakistan’s real challenge is to find a place in this new order.

If it is a correct reading of unfolding events, it is not very difficult to work out Pakistan’s options. It is probably not open to Pakistan to seek a fundamental review of Washington’s strategic decision to assist India at the expense of India-Pakistan balance of power. Similarly, it is extremely unlikely that the US will extend comparable nuclear-related equipment or technology to Pakistan. It is time to recognize that Washington uses NPT and other international instruments in the nuclear arena selectively. But there is, at this point of time, no need to distrust American assurances that Pakistan’s conventional military needs will be considered sympathetically.

The present balance of power is rather fragile. The army is probably capable of playing a defensive role. When it comes to airpower, India has SU-30 Ks, Mirage 2000s, MiG-23s and MiG-27s strike aircraft and MiG-29 air defence fighters. Pakistan’s Mirage IIIs, Vs and Q-5s and around 30 aging F-16 aircraft cannot provide a balance without the induction of new F-16s and that too if they arrive with the required avionics. Pakistan Navy has not known the baptism of fire that the army and air force have gone through but it has used the limited funds available to it intelligently to maintain reasonable defensive capability with submarines and light guided missile ships.

Pakistan cannot match India’s defence expenditure, especially with open-ended Indian acquisitions from the United States, without accentuating existing distortions in Pakistan’s economy. But a carefully calculated ratio of forces will have to be ensured till India-Pakistan detente takes firmer roots.

Regrettably, there is still a crucial role for strategic deterrence. Pakistan has to free itself of any external veto on research and development on nuclear weapons and delivery system as India is not likely to accept a strategic restraint regime that compromises its major power status. China has countered the possible ABM capability in Taiwan and elsewhere in the Asia-Pacific region by R&D dedicated to the refinement of its nuclear forces without opting for Soviet style warhead parity. Meanwhile, we have to preserve our faith in the process aiming at neutralizing the historical animosity between the two nuclear-capable neighbours. The difficulties encountered en route should be an argument for re-doubled efforts and not for abandoning the journey.

Notwithstanding its close and somewhat domestically controversial ties with Washington, Islamabad has expended greater energy in diversifying its external relations than in a long time. Admittedly, not all the initiatives have borne fruit as yet. Russia, for one, has not responded adequately to Pakistani overtures. With Iran, where distrust of Pakistani establishment runs deep, there is still a long way to go. Pakistan has to demonstrate, whenever the occasion demands, that it would never be a part of the siege Iran is threatened with. Domestic compulsions of the Kabul authorities and visceral anti-Pakistan feelings of some elements of the erstwhile Northern Alliance will continue to create difficulties but Pakistan has to stay the course in pursuing cooperation with Kabul, and through Afghanistan further afield with Central Asian states.

The kingpin of a long-term policy designed to assure Pakistan’s due place in the eventual global equilibrium — a place defined by its intrinsic strategic importance —- continues to be China. It will be a mistake to take this vital relationship for granted. It too requires proper nurturing. History has shown that an exaggerated Washington-centric policy did not serve Pakistan well. This is the right time to persuade the United States that the high importance that Pakistan rightly attaches to relations with it does not obviate the need for developing ties with other countries some of which may not find favour with it at a particular moment of time.

The writer is a former foreign secretary.

The solution to the problem of the Mullahs is quite simple. Their main voting banks are those people, who are not as economically solid as as the middle, upper-middle class, and upper class. Therefore, one would have to adopt a multi-pronged strategy in order to cut the supportive legs of the Mullahs.

One would have to carry out this out tactfully, carefully, and patiently. Dislodging a mindset, which has entrenched itself from the flawed policies following `79 is going to literally be a David vs. Goliath battle. The masses can not, at no point in time, be given even the slightest indiciation that their/our majority religion Islam, is in danger. The phrase, `Islam is in danger` on it`s own is charged with enough energy to unravel any political establishment in just about any Muslim-majority country.Pakistan is no exception to that. No one should be allowed to misuse our religious inclinations to incite a revolution or something of that genre to suit their own sinister designs.

1. Introduction of Chemistry, Physics, Liberal Art Subjects, non-Islamic literature, and `Civic Studies` co-existing peacefully with Islamic studies should be the norm.

2. The government should consider declaring war agaisnt illiteracy and unemployment, and the youth who graduate from schools and institutions should be oriented in such a way that they can actually take part in the practical economy.

3. Adopting English language for all Pakistanis as our second national language will be a great victory for Pakistan. It will be a correct attempt at shortening the gap between the middle-upper classes and the lower class. This is the need of the hour! If the Shiv Sena can see the light in this decision, then we should be able to aswell!

Re: # 509

CRM.

Re # 497 & 508

Romair,

I’ve very clearly stated my background and who I am in my essay My Identity. Combine that with my Bio and you would know everything about me, including what I look like. It will answer all your questions you asked me. I may not live in Pakistan anymore and have given up its citizenship, but I do have a great deal of affinity for Pakistan and am a well-wisher of that country.

You are perhaps correct that our views are probably more aligned than they diverge. I do not consider Pakistani mullahs to be “the” problem for Pakistan, either. I just shudder at the thought what would follow if they grab power in Pakistan.

To me the only solution to the mullahs and economic rut in which Pakistan finds itself today lies in education. Beginning from primary schools, make education free of cost to all children and change the curricula to include employable skills that’s heavy on math, English, and science. Get rid of negative history and stop demonizing India and the Hindus and putting in everybody’s head that they, or anyone else, are Pakistan’s enemy. Most importantly, teach only the gentle and tolerant version of Islam. When that generation of Pakistanis grows up with analytical abilities, not seeing India as enemy, and a religion that teaches kindness and tolerance, the mullah problem from Pakistan will die a quiet death and Pakistan would have secured a prosperous economic future.

I’m out of time to discuss Iran. But to summarize: I’m not a fan of Iran’s political and social setup and will loathe to live in a country like that.

Mantolives, I made a comment, where I completely retracted my statements regarding the betrayal issue. Also, you insulted Don first by making a statement regarding the status of the elite, and then he responded to you. Then you`re fight agaisnt him was futile, and you subsequently labelled me guility for being `those who wreak havoc in Pakistan`. This you did so as you felt I betrayed you by condemning you for comparing Don and Ossama. Coincidentally, as you were throwing a fitt on MSN about how I betrayed you, concurrently I was on the phone with Don, discussing a way to settle this issue, therefore, you are the author of all the problems.

Also, I attended the insitution you taught at from kg-1 to grade 3, and was set to make a come-back in 9th, but did not do so. Any hows, let`s just stop indirectly scoring points on eachother shall we? I think thats the last thing Pakistan needs.


The Supreme Court of Pakistan has raised about 12 objections to 12 articles of the Hasba Bill, which the Mutiada Majlis Amal (MMA) wants to be made into law in NWFP.
If the Hasba Bill is applied in it`s present form, it will be highly detrimental to creativity and and to the Arts.

Regarding the issue of Iran, the Iranian Revolution was a popular uprising agaisnt an illegitimate government, or infact, agaisnt the illegitimate Shah regime. The silent majority finally stood up to the dictorial and retrogressive policies of the Shah, who had absolutely no legitimacy of ruling Persia.

Right now, as far as electoral transparency is concerned, Iran most likely has the most transparency in it`s elections in the entire Muslim world.

Iran`s clerics are not justified in disqualfying those people from contesting elections, who they feel are not fit to run. Simmilliarly, Turkey`s policy of disqualifying people from contesting elections is also flawed as it is agaisnt the democratic nature of an egalatarian election. Furthermore, the Saudi Arabian policy of enforcing the hijab on all Muslim females is also fundementally flawed as is the French policy of forcibly removing the hijab, turban, and skull cap from the heads of minority-faith students in her public schools.

Opposite ends on the extreme line to be quite honest!

But Godot, I have a solution to the potential dilema you have raised concerns about. The Judiciary of Pakistan needs immediate reforms. The creation of a truly independent election council is also highly neccassary. These two institutions will serve as two of the main lines-of-defense agaisnt extremist-oriented political parties in Pakistan.

You see, there is no one simple solution to this problem. One needs to take several steps in many different fields in order to sovle the problem. One would be to introduce a more modern curriculm, another would be to increase spending on human development, primary-education, and higher-education.




Also, Tahmeed, I have never heard what you have said regarding Shariah law. Can you please expand on it?

Dear Godot...

Sorry for irrelevant question...

but when you say you are an Oracle consultant.... does that mean ERP?

Godot #488: Perhaps we are debating the same point from different directions. I think mullahs are a problem in Pakistan. But not nearly the main one. You seem to think they are THE problem. In my opinion, Pakistan is not a mullah country. It goes against its ethos and history. Do keep in mind that mullahs, united across all of Pakistan, won only two seats in the previous elections. Had the USA not bombed Afghanistan, they would still be at two. Sheikh Rashid - the furthust thing from a mullah - by himself won two seats.

``a la Iran; unless of course you don’t have any issues with the Iranian political and social setup.``

Actually, I do have issues with Iran`s political set-up. I don`t think maulvis should vet the candidates for Presidency. But not nearly as many issues as I have with Pakistan`s. Iran, at the moment, is probably the most well-established democracy in the Muslim world. Iran is ranked 102 on the World`s HDI. Pakistan is ranked 143. Iran has been ranked by MIT to be full notch ahead of Pakistan in scientific development. Their film industry is putting out some of the most unique material in the world.

I think Iran is one country that is going to be well on its way in about twenty years. Everything there is happening organically, through an internal process. First the secular and very pro-West dictator Shah was kicked out, internally and organically. Then the mullahs took over in a pseudo-democracy. Now there are movements against them. They will eventually be out, also. This is how countries progress........

In the meantime, there are very few countries in Asia that have better relations with their neighbors than Iran. Iran has great relations with China and Russia. It has good relations with Pakistan, India and Afghanistan (now). It has excellent reations with Iraq (now). It has OK to good relations with Europe (other than nuclear stuff). The only two countries that it has terrible relations with are USA and Israel.

I see a lot more in Iran than mullahs. I think you maybe too obsessed with mullahs, which is why that is all you see there. You need to look deeper into a society, than that. Even a person like Tariq Ali, who is a self-proclaimed apostate, and hates religion of all kind (probably the biggest anti-mullah Pakistani ever) has the same views about Iran, that I do. In fact, do listen to the speech Bill Clinton made about Iran, at Davos. Nearly opposite to your views......The only thing that can mess up Iran`s progress is if Bush attacks them, under his axis of evil theory.............If he does attack, then the mullahs will become really really popular there........

But, just for the sake of argument, what is your solution for getting rid of mullahs in Pakistan? Should they be shot? Excommunicated? Shipped out to sea? What if they get democratically elected? Should religious parties be not allowed to take power, a la Turkey (where they eventually took over, anyways)? I don`t support mullahs, but I do realize them as a part of Pakistan.

$503 Friend`s hostility!!
Hai ram! yeh kya keh rahe ho!!
Mere dil ke huzaar tukde kar ke rakh diye, zalim. Aab mein iss jindagi se kya ummedein rakhun!

Though Godot is correct about you. Even though you did show your colors earlier, you appears to be fun

Re: # 504

It is completely up to Mr Elahi... its his crossroads...

Re: # 503

Salim,

The article itself is quite serious. However, this board is bursting with fun, with some seriousness thrown into it. You should stick around. You light-up this board. You`re both intellingent and fun.

Manto,
You once referred to Haroon beta as a budding McCarthy. Did you mean Joe or Jenny?

With Shankar`s Indorap, Mohar`s godliness, haroon`s McCarthyism, Manto`s disclaimers, Friend`s hostility, Romair`s stupidity, and Ajeya`s sermons, it is time for GODot to terminate this forum.
I am ashamed to breath the same oxygen with this crowd. :)
Salim

Re: # 492

Shankar Mian .... Shankar Mian .... this is Allah speaking.... Yes, this is really me, Allah..... No son, you are not dreaming ..... No you are not dead, you are very much alive.... Now listen - I just wanted to let you know that I have designated Mohar11 as my direct representative on earth .... He has the authority to act as Allah every once in a while and also - he is appointed as judge and jurror in Chowk....

Yeah, I know, that`s not fair ... you should have been given that role you being a shrink and all ... but that`s my decision. Now you boys play nice otherwise I will ask Mohar11 to hit you with a thunder or something....

Allah Hafiz ... err, I mean , Me Hafiz .... err... whatever....

Godot has written a nice analysis of choices that Pakistan must make.

There is need of similar introspection in India. While we are euphoric with ``india shining campaign``, we must make some good decisions about how to maximse gains from this spurt of prosperity. While future for India looks promising, it was also looking promising for asian tiger economies in 80s. Unstable and unreliable basic infrastructure, recently exposed again by Mumbai rains, shows fragility of our economy.

Ladies and gentlemen,

I wish to make one thing abundantly clear to all those who are reading this board:

I have never ever taught Mr Haroon Elahi, nor have I been every associated with any faculty of any of the educational institutions he might have attended.

Hence there is no teacher-student pissing match here. I did teach Don`s class but he has already apologised for his bad behavior earlier. Mr Elahi`s problem is simply that others have a conception of Pakistan slightly or perhaps immensely different from his and therefore he chooses to call them traitors. Therefore I humbly submit that it is unfair to describe this as teacher-student pissing contest...

re: #488 by godot

[Re: # 457 & 462

Romair,

You ask too many questions and say too much in one post and keep going off in tangent. That reflects only your convoluted and spaghetti-like thought process. Please stick to one thought at a time before you run off with another thought in the same post, so it can be clearly debated. Also, a succinct and a clear post from you would definitely help me in not skipping what you have to say. ]


I couldn`t have said it better.


But there is method to his madness. He recognizes that there is danger in answering questions point-by-point. In rambling essay-type musings, he can attempt to confuse and bluster his way out of the frequent logical problems he finds himself in.

Re: #482 by tahmed32


[On sharia: Sharia is not the word of God. It is simply judicial decisions made over the centuries by qazis appointed by kings.]


Lies, as usual. Here`s a quote:

``The Qur`an is the principal source of Islamic law, the Sharia. It contains the rules by which the Muslim world is governed (or should govern itself) and forms the basis for relations between man and God, between individuals, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, as well as between man and things which are part of creation. The Sharia contains the rules by which a Muslim society is organized and governed, and it provides the means to resolve conflicts among individuals and between the individual and the state.

There is no dispute among Muslims that the Qur`an is the basis of the Sharia and that its specific provisions are to be scrupulously observed. The Hadith and Sunna are complementary sources to the Qur`an and consist of the sayings of the Prophet and accounts of his deeds. The Sunna helps to explain the Qur`an, but it may not be interpreted or applied in any way which is inconsistent with the Qur`an.



Though there are other sources of law—i.e., ijma`, (consensus), qiyas, (analogy), ijtihad, (progressive reasoning by analogy)—the Qur`an is the first and foremost source, followed by the Hadith and Sunna. Other sources of law and rules of interpretation of the Qur`an and the Hadith and Sunna follow in accordance with a generally accepted jurisprudential scheme.


The Qur`an contains a variety of law-making provisions and legal proscriptions interspersed throughout its chapters (suwar) and verses (ayat). A number of rules exist for interpreting these provisions, such as the position of a given ayah within the context of the surah, which in turn is interpreted in accordance with its place in the sequence of revelations, its reference to other revelations, and its historical context in relation to particular conditions which existed at the time of the given revelation. These and other rules are known as the science of interpretation (ilm usul aI-fiqh). According to these rules, for example, one initially is to refer to a specific provision and then to a general provision dealing with a particular situation. No general provision can be interpreted to contradict a specific provision, and a specific rule will supersede a general proposition. A general provision, however, is always interpreted in the broadest manner, while a specific provision is interpreted in the narrowest manner. Reasoning by analogy is permitted, as are applications by analogy, except where expressly prohibited. Simplicity and clear language are always preferred. Similarly, the clear spirit of certain prescriptions cannot be altered by inconsistent interpretations. A policy-oriented interpretation within the confines of the rules of jurisprudence is permissible and even recommended, as is the case with the doctrine of ijtihad (progressive reasoning by analogy). ``



[On the tax on dhimmis (religious minorities): Is there any muslim country that has such a tax today?? No. Does anyone in Pakistan even refer to religious minorities as ``dhimmis``? No. ]

Not so fast.

You may not do it because of potential consequences, international and otherwise.

But according to Allah`s commands (the Quran), MUSLIMS ARE SUPPOSED TO.

So just because you are currently not doing it MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING..


[Have elected (or even unelected) national level leaders in any muslim country lead attacks on religious minorities as in India? No. ]

Advani was involved in the demolition of the Babri Masjid, not killing even one person. The first human being killed after that, AS USUAL, was by a muslim mob in Bombay. And then thousands of innocent Hindu men, women and children were butchered in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afganistan. MANY temples were razed to the ground. The national leaders there did nothing. No investigation, no public protests - nothing.

In Gujarat in 2002, of the total deaths (as per the home ministry`s official annual report for 2002-2003, page 6), about a third were Hindus (including 59 charred in a train compartment) and 200 in all were killed in police firing. If, at one stage, 100,000 Muslims were struggling in relief camps, so were 40,000 Hindus.

Ask me, and I`ll quote hundreds of incidents of Hindus being murdered in Pakistan and Bangladesh AS WE SPEAK TODAY by ruling party members in Pakiland and Bangladesh.

You guys are nothing more than VERY low-class garbage. And the world knows it.



[So, go and fix the problems among your own hindus, then come talk to me about religion or anything else. ]

Everywhere in the world, Pakis/Muslims are LOOKED DOWN UPON. Just listen to the people calling into the talk shows on radio here. EVERYONE LOATHES YOU GUYS. EVERYBODY. PRIVATELY AMERICANS LAUGH AND JOKE ABOUT YOUR PEDOPHILE PROPHET AND HIS 12 (at the minimum) WIVES AND HIS DOZENS OF SLAVE GIRLS WHO HE USED FOR SEX AND THE 6-YEAR-OLD HE WANTED TO MARRY.

Hindus are welcome and respected everywhere. As is Hindu philosphy.



[Last post to you. I am not interested in discussing anything with you. ]

Of course. Because you have no answer.

Godot #488: Before I answer your questions, I need to ask you a few:

- Were you born in the USA
- If you migrated to the USA, at what age
- Have you ever worked, as a professional, in Pakistan

The reason I am asking these, is to get an idea of your experiences in Pakistan, to see where you are coming from. Since you have stated, that you got your ideas, ``from looking around.`` Were you looking around in Pakistan, or outside Pakistan. Just in Pakistan` English press or do you follow the Urdu press also. I think in the end, like I said earlier, Pakistan needs to do what Pakistanis want. Not what ex-Pakistanis want......

In my opinion, good governance and economic growth is the answer. I have a lot of issues with people who are tied up with discussing mullahs and non-mullahs all the time. There is a world beyond that........As I keep telling you, mullahs are just a problem. Not the biggest problem. The best way to judge the biggest problem, in a third-world country, is to see who are the financial beneficiaries of the corrupt system. That would be you and I. Perhaps we should start looking at ourselves, as well...........For some reason, you seem quite hesitant to do so........

shrinkman: Is your enter key stuck?

Shankar mian
Kyon! such baat karwi hoti hai?

All this f&ck and sh!t that you are spreading for last few days - is that not an image of what you have in your own mind? While kids are busy in their pissing match, you are also entering akhara trying to feel the boys!

Re: # 493

Yo!
friend!!
Dont give up your day job!

Lay-people`s mind (like yours) have a ...
VERY SICK IMAGINATION...

So keep it to yourself...OK?!

mohar#489
It is kind of strange... all these oldtimers having their favorite ``boys`` on chowk. I wondered earlier too and our buttess number chacha blew his handle.

Now we have Romair with his ``boys`` and Shankar with his ``boy``... Kind of freakish!!

Re: # 489

{{this kind of animosity points towards some deep-rooted issues}}

Listen pal;
leave ``psychoanalysing ylh`s mind`` to experts;
OK?!...

I`ve known this guy on Chowk...
since he was a snot-nosed kid in Rutgers...

I dont benefit (in anyway) from ...
polishing ylh`s apple...
OK?!!

{{somehow I feel YLH has his fare share of the culpability in this sordid afffair of student-teacher p!ssing contest.}}

And just who da` f*ck died..
& made YOU Allah...
or judge or juror on Chowk?!...for that matter..

Its in very poor taste that that dukkar Elahi uses a public message board to assassinate a fellow Chowkies character...

Just because YOU dont like ylh...
doesnt make it OK

Shankar mian
I was told that you will open your trap for 10 rupees, have you started opening your trap for free now?


Jokes aside, have you been barred from doing practice? Or have you retired?

Re: # 487

{{Shankar,
Why are you torturing us with your badly formatted posts?}}

Gee...
I`m so glad I`m f#cking with your mind; my friend!
Too bad youre slimy Hindian...
but then..
who amongst us is perfect?:))

{{{I will arrange to get you 10 Rupees. Ab khush!}}}

See...
now thats EXACTLY why I`m not...
er.. ``Ab khush``-ing right now..

Gimme 200 dollars an hour...
I`ll keep my trap shut...

Re: # 484

Shankar Mian

Take a break from one man YLH defence committee. I mean we all love YLH but let`s face it - we still don`t know much about him. Haroon and Co are his students - so much animosity towards YLH may have some valid reasons.

I mean - this kind of animosity between students and teachers is rare - many students don`t like their teachers, but this kind of animosity points towards some deep-rooted issues and somehow I feel YLH has his fare share of the culpability in this sordid afffair of student-teacher p!ssing contest.

Re: # 457 & 462

Romair,

You ask too many questions and say too much in one post and keep going off in tangent. That reflects only your convoluted and spaghetti-like thought process. Please stick to one thought at a time before you run off with another thought in the same post, so it can be clearly debated. Also, a succinct and a clear post from you would definitely help me in not skipping what you have to say.

I picked up a few points you raised in your two posts, and below are my answers to that:

“Mullah parties are amongst the most democratic in Pakistan.”

Could that be because they’re not in power? However, the issue is not with their “democratic credentials,” but with their mentality and conviction of a “pure Islamic” political and social system that would keep power in their hands perpetually and their word will become law of the land, a la Iran; unless of course you don’t have any issues with the Iranian political and social setup.

Once in power, however, would the mullahs keep the same political system that brought them to power? What’s the guarantee? What would prevent them from “Islamizing” the political system because that will be the “right” and the “Islamic way”? Who would challenge them then? Challenging them would amount to challenging Islam and punishment for challenging Islam would be beheading. Would you dare to?

” I don`t think mullah is the biggest challenge facing Pakistan. But since you think so, could you point out how you have reached this conclusion.”

I reached this conclusion by looking around. Iran, Osama’s support among the mullahs in Pakistan, their professed hatred for America and anything Western, Pakistani newspapers.

“there is more to Pakistan than, ``you me and Haroon.`` We are a tiny microscopic elite. In fact, you and me aren`t even in Pakistan.”

No, people like us are NOT a tiny microscopic minority. I’m certain that there’s a good portion of Pakistani society -- rich, poor and those in between -- that would concur with our thoughts.

” I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.

That depends entirely how you treat your servant: as a human being whom life has dealt bad cards, or as an animal.

Shankar,
Why are you torturing us with your badly formatted posts? I will arrange to get you 10 Rupees. Ab khush!

#483 by tahmed32 on August 4, 2005 5:23am PT
Majumdar #464 When I referred to ``Indian muslims``, I meant ``muslims in the sub-continent``. Thanks for pointing this out.

Wah! Wah!!
Is it a Freudian slip or what?

Two possible interpretations to this
1> Indian muslims are only true muslims in subcontinents
2> India means complete sub-continent and anyone living in sub-continent is Indian

I wonder which one is correct ;-)

Re: # 457

My dear cousin,

{{That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...``}}

You figured that out...
aaaaaalllll by your lonesome?...
hahn!!


{{I never vote for mullah parties. Never have, never will (unless Benazir is the only other candidate).}}

Unless the mullahs have a ONE PARTY manifesto...
FREE KASHMIR!!

{{But we need to get the facts straight.}}

Damn straight...
so stop spinning them...
ISI BUTThead!!:)))

{{ Mullah parties are amongst the most democratic in Pakistan.}}

See what I mean...
spin..spin..spin..

DUKKAR
Didnt godot tell you that they will kick out democracy the MINUTE they come to power?
Pl. start staking some notes...
Cpt. CLUELESS!!

{{They are one of the few parties which have internal elections. And are not heridatory. And most of all, they are the only lower-middle class parties in Pakistan. They have put farmers and poor laborers and lower class maulvis into the assemblies. Most of the rest, like PPP and PML, are elitist heridatory parties, which never hold internal leadership elections. They have Chairpersons for Life.}}

Thats EXACTLY WHAT LENIN dreamt of in the erstwhile Soviet Union..
Thats how these b#stards SEDUCE an unsuspecting bhoola AWAM to gain power..

communist & right wing fascists ALL start out that way!!

why in the world do you think Hilter APPEALED to ordinary Germans...
before he came to (took over) power?

{{Mullahs are just a nuisance who will disappear}}

NOT as long as they KEEP proffessing jihad to liberate Kashmir...
Havent you figured out (by now)...
that that`s EXACTLY the game your world famous military has been playing?

Oh well . I guess you dont have the guts to admit it.
You are, after all, a product of that rat-infested; Islam-insulting institution..

,{{ the moment any credible non-mullah leadership appears (different from the corrupt feudal PPP and PML). Pakistan has much bigger problems than mullahs..........}}

YES!!
like your Goddamned Army

{{Also, there is more to Pakistan than, ``you me and Haroon.`` We are a tiny microscopic elite.}}

Yes..
but when you cling to the dominant discourse in Pakistan...
keep clinging to it...
you`ll go very far & high up in political power..
maybe then you can take bribes & buy a better house in Toronto...


{{ There is a mosque close to my house in Pakistan. I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.}}

Better him ...than me! :))))

Seems like the mullahs have already converted the hearts & minds of your awaam...
Pakistan is F#CKED!!!!

{{ but rest assured, you and me (i.e. the rich folks) are far more disliked amongst common Pakistanis than anyone else (including the mullah). The middle-class considers the mullah just a removable nuisance, since he is even poorer than they are. It considers us the elitist mafia, which hogs all the nation`s resources..........}}

After experiencing rich guys, on Chowk, like haroon elahi & Don Corleone...
I cant say I blame them!:)))

{{So, I don`t think mullah is the biggest challenge facing Pakistan.}}

Touche!!!
You Azaaaaaaaad Kashmiris are!


{{I would put, feudalism in the rural areas, and financial corruption in the urban areas as the main problem. After that I would place the class divisions in the society, with us being the English-speaking elite and the remaining being the Urdu-speaking, ``awam.`` And then I would also place the involvement of the Army in business and politics as the next one. All these before the mullah.....}}

Yo!
Put Al-Qeeda infested Azaaaad Kashmiri BUTT(heads)...
on TOP of that list....


{{{I would much rather see this bandwidth spent on discussing the improving of the canal systems, the introduction of IT into villages, how to improve the highway system of Pakistan etc.}}}

So put your money where your frikking mouth is...
& migrate to frikking Gilgit...
You are too afraid to bring up a child in evil Western Canukistan anyways....

{{What people want is a raise in their standard of living. If you don`t believe me, let me ask you a question: Did you and/or your family migrate to the USA for its secularism and democracy? Or did you migrate to make more money and get better jobs? I migrated for the later (more money and better jobs).}}

FECKLESS/SHAMELESS bugger ...

You & your kind are like the British who camed to India...
sneered at the local culture...
& became extremely wealthy...

You know Romair...
its a HECK OF A LOT OF FUN...
having unilateral conversations with you :))))

Re: # 476

HaroonElahi,

{{It appears the Yasser Latif Hamdani is not only cheat, but he is also a chronic liar.}}

And what are YOU
a f%ing mullah?!

{{He just accused me of `threating` him on MSN. You sir, are a deceitful liar! I came on MSN and I stated that ` Please Refrain from interacting with Don and I. Good Day`. And then I blocked you. How this is a threat, I fail to understand. }}

Yup!
U da` mullah alright...
asli 100% Paki mullah dukkar...

{{But I don`t blame you for behaving this way, you have been defeated and have failed to properly produce any coherent arguements.}}

DEFEATED!!!!
hahaha!
TYPICAL Paki ``KUTB MINAR DICK`` response...

Just like your country...
lose every frikking war in your glorious history
..& DECLARE (unilateral) VICTORY!!!!!!!

the sad thing is...
Methinks your idotic awam....
Actually BUYS THAT SH*T!!!!

{{To everyone else who has been taking part in a constructive debate in the interest of objectivity, I will be responding soon as I have to go right now.}}

OBJECTIVITY!! you?!!
You are about as objective as my cousin
Umair Raja!!!!

{{Stop it Mantolives, How many times do I have to tell you to stop interacting with me?}}

But ofcourse...
You would`nt refuse a slimy brahmin like me..
the PLEASURE of ...
interacting with you
er...unilaterally...ofcourse!!!

{{You are the author of the problem as you insulted Don intially and then you compared him with Ossama and subsequently I condemned you for both and that your ego could not stand.}}

You are a Paki mullah jerkola...
to bring a snot nosed 16 yr rich kid...
to character assassinate a fellow Chowkie...
DUKKAR!!

{{ this issue has to do with your retrogressive mentality and your inability to behave like a proper, mature, person.}}

Yo!!!
Kaaala ``pot``!
that ``kettle`` youre calling ``black`` is...
a Hell of a lot...
````fairer`````` than YOU!!!!!

{{So what if I asked you to refrain from attacking Don on Chowk? I asked don via the phone, did you care to consider that? He even unilaterally apologized and said let us end this,}}

Thats why you shouldnt bring a 16 yr old snot rich kid on Chowk...

If you are a REAL muslim...
I CHALLENGE you...
to show the maturity &
HUMILITY....

To aplogise (unilaterally)
not just to ylh..
but EACH & EVERY CHowkie...

for engaging in such
FECKLESS/SHAMELESS character assassination...

{{You sir, are a hypocrite!}}

You READ MY MIND; pal!!!

Khuda Hafiz

Majumdar #464 When I referred to ``Indian muslims``, I meant ``muslims in the sub-continent``. Thanks for pointing this out.

Ajeya #462 Your views on Islam, as I told you earlier, are of no interest to me. Because I am aware that, like too many Indians on chowk, you are on chowkwith one stupid little agenda: ``hinduism good, islam bad``.

Having said that, I will respond to your two ``arguments`` in any case.

On sharia: Sharia is not the word of God. It is simply judicial decisions made over the centuries by qazis appointed by kings.

On the tax on dhimmis (religious minorities): Is there any muslim country that has such a tax today?? No. Does anyone in Pakistan even refer to religious minorities as ``dhimmis``? No. Have elected (or even unelected) national level leaders in any muslim country lead attacks on religious minorities as in India? No.

So, go and fix the problems among your own hindus, then come talk to me about religion or anything else.

Last post to you. I am not interested in discussing anything with you.

Re: # 479

No I deliberately blanked out your email address in courtesy... but you have revealed it on your own.

Re: # 476

Another thing I want to make clear is that I did not insult Don at any point. He is the one who wrote his post 20 without provocation:

#20 by Don on July 28, 2005 3:27pm PT
i am the friend of haroon ellahi and my views were expressed in the 9th comment...i happen to know mantolives personally...he is a `muslim` but does not believe in eid and thinks that the namaz should be recited in english instead of the way the Holy Prophet(pbuh) recited it...he is a `patriotic pakistani` but hates everything about his country and is in love with the US and would kill to have been born an american...he is a hypocrite in everyway...and his opinions should not be taken seriously...
[Reply to interact #20]

Yasser also made a mistake in copying the 1st line I said, you are a true Jehadi! Keep it up Mantolives :)

Lie, cheat, deceit, do everything you can to cheat, even shoot ppl to save face, which you have none!

Dear Hamdani, I use two email addresses, not `several`, two is not `several` by any stretch of the English language.

h_ellahi@hotmail.com is for real life friends, family, and associates.

youthparliament@hotmail.com is for online friends, friends I made on my summer school camps and chowk friends.

Therefore, that is why I have you on both accounts. Any hows, sir, earlier this morning I came online from h_ellahi and I said to you `Refrain from talking to Don and I. Good Day`. I then blocked you. you then came online on chowk and stated that I have `threatened` you.

That is why I unblocked you from youthparliament@hotmail.com, and you copy-pasted those messages by me in your last comment.

Where is the threat? You are pathetic, just pathetic. Are you like trying to play mind-games? Was this your substitute for having no friends when you were in that `filthy elitist school?`

1. I ask you to refrain from talking to me.
2. You claim I have threatened you on a public forum, insulting my honor.
3. I ask you for a justification and you fail to do so and ask your dear friend Rozaiba to say to me to stop messaging you.

What sort of logic is this yasser? hahaha... I am seriously laughing so hard right now, as in, it`s absolutely hilarious, that Yasser Latif Hamdani has the maturity level of a 7th grader! hahahaha

Re: # 476

Haroon,

Please get a grip on yourself. You are still sending me messages from other nicks now... now you claim that I am interacting with you...

Here is a message I am getting from you right now:

Haroon says:
You are a liar! I did not threaten you from

---

Haroon says:
I asked you to refrain from talking to Don and I! and then I said good day
Haroon says:
why do you lie so much
Haroon says:
Stop it dude. It`s not funny anymore.
Haroon says:
You are trying to hurt my repuation, which I do not appreacite. I am not the one who goes around threatening to bomb people`s houses or shoot bullets at them.
YLH says:
Haroon I don`t wish to have any contact with you... I have blocked you on the other board... and I am blocking you again. Please respect my wishes and stop fibbing.

I have blocked several of your emails. If you have anything to say to me say via this forum.

It appears the Yasser Latif Hamdani is not only cheat, but he is also a chronic liar.

He just accused me of `threating` him on MSN. You sir, are a deceitful liar! I came on MSN and I stated that ` Please Refrain from interacting with Don and I. Good Day`. And then I blocked you. How this is a threat, I fail to understand.

But I don`t blame you for behaving this way, you have been defeated and have failed to properly produce any coherent arguements.

To everyone else who has been taking part in a constructive debate in the interest of objectivity, I will be responding soon as I have to go right now. My elder cousin informed me of Mantolives remarks so I decided to come online right now and respond.

Stop it Mantolives, How many times do I have to tell you to stop interacting with me?

You are the author of the problem as you insulted Don intially and then you compared him with Ossama and subsequently I condemned you for both and that your ego could not stand. This issue has nothing to do with our conflicting visions for Pakistan, in fact, we agree on most issues, this issue has to do with your retrogressive mentality and your inability to behave like a proper, mature, person.

So what if I asked you to refrain from attacking Don on Chowk? I asked don via the phone, did you care to consider that? He even unilaterally apologized and said let us end this, but YOU continued your attack. You sir, are a hypocrite!

A

Re: # 473

Done!

Re: # 472

All friendly/decent/dignified communication from anyone is welcome...

#472 by Mantolives

Yasser, can you not block Haroon`s messages? I think you can. Try it out.

Dear Haroon,

Please refrain from leaving threatening messages on the MSN. This is a discussion forum and it should not give you sanction to threaten me in person.

-YLH

BTW,
Any Chowkis who were invited for any of the Dawood ibrahim`s daughter`s nikah etc ceremonies????

Somebody advised us politely to stop chasing mullahs....................
that is exactly what we have been doing for a long time......it is time to watch them and their women folk getting chased by these mullahs with their sticks once the Hasba bill also comes to their Punjab province!!!

I know I know, they would harangue us with the `actual` political situation on the ground and how the Hasba bill can never come to Punjab!!!

Re: # 468

.... not to mention Dr Shankar`s cyber therapy and guidance... in the early years of chowk.

Re: # 467

PS : Yes I did go to the same school for O/A Levels and APs the biggest mistake of my life... my parents are professionals and they thought it would be a good investment...

Looking back at it I think it gave me a lot of complexes but no real education... I owe what little education I have to a few libraries in the North East of the United states... and a few musuems.. and this website.

Haroon,

I have not abused and insulted you- yet you keep writing ilogs after ilogs about me. Will you please get your head out of your arse? I did write that post (which has no manifesto) in which I said that I need to get off my butt and create the resources of standing up politically against the hereditary rich.

What I said in the Islamiyat Class many years ago was perfectly valid and Islamic. I maintain that under classical Islamic jurisprudence it is permissible to pray in the language you know best (instead of going through the motions in a language you don`t understand) and Eid-ul-Fitr was originally a traditional Arab holiday - I did not say Eid was bad... personally (EMPHASIS on personally) I would prefer 14th August as a holiday.


Don,

I have nothing against you being rich. Not being the socialist type- I do not have a prejudice against the rich. Infact had you cared to read, I praised your family but I never did have any respect for you and today you have vindicated my gutt feeling. You are the one who resorted to personal attacks and abuse. I have not addressed any post to you, but your name has come up in the passing because your friend Haroon Elahi has been bringing you up again and again in his posts.

-YLH

#456 by tahmed32

[Has anyone bothered to read the Quran and understand its fundamental message - which, as I said earlier, places responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL, NOT on the state, and certainly not on any maulvi or mard-e-momin, for implementation of the message.]


So then what is the possible circumstance where the Sharia would be applicable?

And which entity is supposed to collect the Jezia tax (protection money) from the wretched dhimmis?

There`s a million more questions like these, but I thought I would begin with these obvious two.

Re: 426 by haroonellahi

[The term, `Secular Islam`, is an oxymoron and was made in highly poor taste. It`s like saying to a conservative Jew that he/she may consume a Kosher Cheese Burger, or saying to the Hindu that you may consume cow meat.

Cultivating a secular mentality however is totally different and it is not an oxymoron. ]



I see, so ``secular Islam`` is an oxymoron.

Okay. Got that one...

Therefore, if you are Islamic, you CANNOT be secular (in your thought and action).

Okay, I`m still hanging on....


But then you CAN develop a secular mindset. Because this is somehow ``totally different``.


Ummmm....what? Really?....This must be very deep.


Who says Chowk posters are without deep insights?

Re: Tahmed 456

On 6., basic economics should tell you that a Common Market does not just about simply because ``muslims`` want it. Economic ties are based on economic realities. The only interest Malaysia has in Pakistan is as a source of some IT people and that is all. Malaysia`s markets are in the developed countries. The only Common Market Turkey wants to join is the European Common Market. Even the arabs dont give a damn for Pakistani`s great love for ``muslim brothers`` - Dubai booted out mullah unceremoniously only yesterday on account of his terrorist ties!! How many ``fellow muslims`` do you see on chowk?? Get real, my young friend. Wake up from the dream world Indian muslims have been living in.

Dear Tahmed Sahib, What has poor haroonellahi done to get the sobriquet ``Indian Muslim``. Surely exhanging a few verbal brickbats with manto cant be that big a crime.

Regards

Re: # 462

{{Perhaps, we need to get out of spinning our wheels around secularism and religion, the whole day. There are other more important things.........}}

Yup!
Keep spinning the wheels of how patriotic you Azaaaad Kashmiri are...

Evidently,
by your schrewd assessment....
the average Pakistani is very humble & bhoola (though patriotic)

Its no wonder that an average Paki...
has ``BOUGHT`` your BS

You are, after all, a product..
of your ``spitting-on-Islam`s face`` LIAR miltry

Americans call..
``Military Intelligence`` an OXYMORON!....

``World-famous`` Paki-military ...
is the BIGGEST oxy-MORON...
& they have ruled your blighted country
for most of its sad history...

Is it ANY wonder...
that ``the world-renowned`` Gen. Mushy...
has to come to Amrika...hat in hand..
or sends his Citibank chela Shaukat Aziz..
to ask for..
for BHEEK from Washington...

And PARITY with India...!!!

Yaar, Bush ...
AINT AS DUMB AS HE LOOKS & ACTS!!!
We NRIs have made DAMN sure he listens to US..
& he takes VERY GOOD NOTES!:)))

Godot #various: I think, perhaps, our (yours and mine) energies would be better spent, trying to discuss good governance and point out bad governance. Rather than habitually chasing the ghosts of mullahism and secularism, twenty-four hours a day - two concepts that cannot fill an empty stomach.........

Use that as the criteria, and Pakistan will be much better off........

As an example, from what I have read the NWFP MMA govt. isn`t providing good governance. Criticise them for that. Not for merely being a maulvi party. On the other hand, Karachi has a Jamaat-i-Islami mayor, named Naimatullah. He is an old guy (70+), with a long white beard. Karachi, as you know has been one of the most maladministrated cities in Pakistan; perhaps the world. All the MQM govts. have screwed up the city, and have turned it into their private ranch of violence. MQM, by the way, is probably the most secular party in Pakistan.

I haven`t been to Karachi for ages. But whomever I run into seems to say that Naimatullah is doing a good job. I even talked with a lady, who is a business executive. She had a meeting with him, and even she was impressed. As were the foreigner ladies accompanying her. I have heard him debate MQM wallahs on TV, and he alwasy provides stats which show far more honesty in his govt. than in the previous MQM govts.

Once again, I was not sure, so I did some more research. There is a website called, http://www.worldmayor.com/. Apparently Naimatullah is one of the 65 finalists for the award. Only 9 out of Asia are finalists.

I still wasn`t sure, because the site could be a fly-by-nite piece. So I did some more research. Cowasjee is a Parsi journalist in Karachi. He criticizes anyone and everyone, in the govt. Naimat is a Jamaat-i-Islami man. The last thing one would expect someone from a religious minority to say about him, is something positive. Right......

Well, Cowasjee says the following: ``the outgoing City Nazim, having virtually been our Lord Mayor, the crisply fiscally honest Naimatullah Khan`` (www.dawn.com).

Now Naimatullah is not secular (neither is Imran Khan, mind you). While Altaf Hussain is secular. Whom would you want running Karachi? If the above is true, my vote in Peshawar goes against Qazi Hussain, but my vote in Karachi goes for Naimatullah..........

Perhaps, we need to get out of spinning our wheels around secularism and religion, the whole day. There are other more important things.........

Re: # 451

Godot,

{{When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.” }}

Well SAID boss!
Jeete raho..

GUYS like you SHOULD keep on hitting his spin bowling for 6-ers...

these Azaaaaaaaaaaad Kashmiris have HIJACKED your country!!!!

& DESTROYED the past & present lives of MILLIONS of ordinary Pakistanis
(ask his mentor, Bukhri)...if you dont believe me....
whose ONLY demand is to put food on the table,
safe drinking water for their families
educate their children...
be allowed to visit their split up families in India...

BUT ...
(There is ALWAYS a goddamned BUTT{head} to thwart Pakistan)...


These Azaaaaad Kashmiri ButtHEADS
have been PAMPERED by Pakistan...
given all the ``benefits`` of Paki ``AFFIRMATIVE ACTION``
Because of their IDIOTIC ``pleas`` to ``SAVE``...
``poor, abused muslim salves`` in IOK!!

That is MUSIC to the ears of the Pakistani ideology!

The BITTER truth...
which we Indians have found out for ourselves
is that AZAAAAAAAAD Kashmir is...
much less developed than ``ENSLAVED`` Kashmir!!!!!!!

This ``spin doctoring`` of how much BETTER OFF Azaaaaaaaad Kashmiris are....
Is just THAT....
SPIN DOCTORING!!!!!!

by Azaaaaad Kashmiri b@stard hypocrites...
who will live in the comfort of Canuckistan (NOT Azaaaaad Kashmir)...
And lament about the enslaved lives of their katlu cousins...
living on the wrong side of the border...

Er...I takethat back...
``TRAPPED`` on the wrong side of the border...

YEAH RIGHT!!!!
Now that the bus service is on...
Are we seeing HOARDS of Kashmiri slaves ...
MAKING A BEEELINE for ...
Azaaaaad Kashmir?!!

No! NO!! NO!!!!!!

The proof of the pudding...
is in the SEEING!!

Remember,
``Walking the HIGH ROAD``...
is the last refuge of a scoundrel...
whose ``noble cause``...
is SINKING faster than the TITANIC!!!

Khuda Hafiz!

Re: # 451

Godot,

{{When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.” }}

Well SAID boss!
Jeete raho..

GUYS like you SHOULD keep on hitting his spin bowling for 6-ers...

these Azaaaaaaaaaaad Kashmiris have HIJACKED your country!!!!

& DESTROYED the past & present lives of MILLIONS of ordinary Pakistanis
(ask his mentor, Bukhri)...if you dont believe me....
whose ONLY demand is to put food on the table,
safe drinking water for their families
educate their children...
be allowed to visit their split up families in India...

BUT ...
(There is ALWAYS a goddamned BUTT{head} to thwart Pakistan)...


These Azaaaaad Kashmiri ButtHEADS
have been PAMPERED by Pakistan...
given all the ``benefits`` of Paki ``AFFIRMATIVE ACTION``
Because of their IDIOTIC ``pleas`` to ``SAVE``...
``poor, abused muslim salves`` in IOK!!

That is MUSIC to the ears of the Pakistani ideology!

The BITTER truth...
which we Indians have found out for ourselves
is that AZAAAAAAAAD Kashmir is...
much less developed than ``ENSLAVED`` Kashmir!!!!!!!

This ``spin doctoring`` of how much BETTER OFF Azaaaaaaaad Kashmiris are....
Is just THAT....
SPIN DOCTORING!!!!!!

by Azaaaaad Kashmiri b@stard hypocrites...
who will live in the comfort of Canuckistan (NOT Azaaaaad Kashmir)...
And lament about the enslaved lives of their katlu cousins...
living on the wrong side of the border...

Er...I takethat back...
``TRAPPED`` on the wrong side of the border...

YEAH RIGHT!!!!
Now that the bus service is on...
Are we seeing HOARDS of Kashmiri slaves ...
MAKING A BEEELINE for ...
Azaaaaad Kashmir?!!

No! NO!! NO!!!!!!

The proof of the pudding...
is in the SEEING!!

Remember,
``Walking the HIGH ROAD``...
is the last refuge of a scoundrel...
whose ``noble cause``...
is SINKING faster than the TITANIC!!!

Khuda Hafiz!

Re: # 426
Telling a hindu that he can consume cow meat is not an oxymoron; provided the cow is a firungi jersey cow and not indian goumata ;)

#457 by Romair on August 3, 2005 7:45pm PT


I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.


Have you considered a t-shirt with a canadian flag to stay safe while you are in Pakistan? Clearly the US and UK flags are not a good idea....

one second thoughts, they might give you some payback for all the taliban killed by the the princess patricia`s snipers.

Godot #451: ``When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.”

That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...``

I never vote for mullah parties. Never have, never will (unless Benazir is the only other candidate). But we need to get the facts straight. Mullah parties are amongst the most democratic in Pakistan. They are one of the few parties which have internal elections. And are not heridatory. And most of all, they are the only lower-middle class parties in Pakistan. They have put farmers and poor laborers and lower class maulvis into the assemblies. Most of the rest, like PPP and PML, are elitist heridatory parties, which never hold internal leadership elections. They have Chairpersons for Life.

Mullahs are just a nuisance who will disappear, the moment any credible non-mullah leadership appears (different from the corrupt feudal PPP and PML). Pakistan has much bigger problems than mullahs..........

Also, there is more to Pakistan than, ``you me and Haroon.`` We are a tiny microscopic elite. In fact, you and me aren`t even in Pakistan. We are volutarily foreigners. Let me tell you something: There is a mosque close to my house in Pakistan. I can say with a lot of certainity that if a people`s revolution ever came, the servant in my house is not going to run to the mosque and grab the maulvi`s throat. He will turn to me and grab my throat.

I don`t know how much you have worked with true middle-class (real middle class with no cars and motorcycles; not Chowk middle-class wannabees) and lower middle class Pakistanis, but rest assured, you and me (i.e. the rich folks) are far more disliked amongst common Pakistanis than anyone else (including the mullah). The middle-class considers the mullah just a removable nuisance, since he is even poorer than they are. It considers us the elitist mafia, which hogs all the nation`s resources..........

So, I don`t think mullah is the biggest challenge facing Pakistan. But since you think so, could you point out how you have reached this conclusion. Are there any surveys, from Pakistanis you can quote. Not from Indians or Americans, but from Pakistanis?

I think maulvis are a problem in Pakistan. But definitely not the biggest one. . I have never heard anyone say, ``Man, the only job I have is as a sweeper at Godot`s (or Romair`s) house, but if I could only get rid of the mullah, everything would be so hunky dory in Pakistan.``

I would put, feudalism in the rural areas, and financial corruption in the urban areas as the main problem. After that I would place the class divisions in the society, with us being the English-speaking elite and the remaining being the Urdu-speaking, ``awam.`` And then I would also place the involvement of the Army in business and politics as the next one. All these before the mullah.....

I personally think all this talk of mullahs and secularism is way overblown on this site. It takes way too much bandwidth for no reason. I would much rather see this bandwidth spent on discussing the improving of the canal systems, the introduction of IT into villages, how to improve the highway system of Pakistan etc.

What people want is a raise in their standard of living. If you don`t believe me, let me ask you a question: Did you and/or your family migrate to the USA for its secularism and democracy? Or did you migrate to make more money and get better jobs? I migrated for the later (more money and better jobs).

haroon #432 Only the good Lord decides who goes to hell or heaven. On the other hand, the good Lord also places responsibility on the individual - NOT on the State, or on any mullah or mard-e-momin - to tell the difference between right and wrong based on his God-given common sense. So, when you see someone consistently do that common sense says is wrong, then you get a pretty good idea where he is headed too.

By using Islam to gain power, the maulvi is clearly headed for hell. So be careful - read the Quran and have faith in your common sense to see what the basic message is. Dont simply follow the rut that has been carved out by the mullah.

On your other points, they are fine except 5. and 9.:

On 5., common sense should tell you that the problem in Pakistan is not ``eid bashing teachers`` (how many ``eid bashing teachers`` have you met in Pakistan??!!), but the crooks who came up with the ``madrassa curriculum`` that has turned tens of thousands of young Pakistani boys into cannon fodder for the maulvi.

On 6., basic economics should tell you that a Common Market does not just about simply because ``muslims`` want it. Economic ties are based on economic realities. The only interest Malaysia has in Pakistan is as a source of some IT people and that is all. Malaysia`s markets are in the developed countries. The only Common Market Turkey wants to join is the European Common Market. Even the arabs dont give a damn for Pakistani`s great love for ``muslim brothers`` - Dubai booted out mullah unceremoniously only yesterday on account of his terrorist ties!! How many ``fellow muslims`` do you see on chowk?? Get real, my young friend. Wake up from the dream world Indian muslims have been living in.


As for Pakistan being an ``Islamic state``, you must be kidding when you say that this will change when the majority of Pakistanis want it changed. Has there ever been a referendum on this or any other issue in Pakistan?? Has anyone bothered to read the Quran and understand its fundamental message - which, as I said earlier, places responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL, NOT on the state, and certainly not on any maulvi or mard-e-momin, for implementation of the message. This responsibility is explicitly denied even to the Holy Prophet himself in the Quran. That is why I say that the concept of an ``Islamic state`` is an oxymoron. That is what the Quran says. And the mauvli defies that - even seeks to arrogate for himself the position denied to the Prophet himself by seeking a morals polics (hasbro). That is why I say that, as surely as the good Lord made the birds and the bees, the mullahs and their followers are headed for hell.

Re: # 452
bbabu,

You said it...man
You said it...

Show that spin doctor..
that we Indians can hit his spin bowling
better than we can hit Murli`s doosra

Jai Hind

shankar #453 You got that one right too, doc!!

Re: # 426

HaroonElahi,

{{Romair, I am not fighting with Mantolives, he was not able to dislodge Don from attacking him so he decided to insult me in order to save face, which he clearly has none.}}

You bring a 16 yr old snot-nosed rich kid to chowk to malign a guy like ylh!!!
It speaks VOLUMES about your own character....
you SHAMELESS dukkar...

Ylh maybe a lot of things.
Lord knows, we Hindians have given him a lot of ulcers on Chowk! :)).

But the man has EARNED my respect.

Right from a young age, he has been STEADFAST in his love for Pakistan.
He has tried VALIANTLY to educate us about the greatness of Jinnah.
Despite the fact that we Hindians buzzed around him like hornets & tried to malign Jinnah.

In all these years on Chowk,
NONE of us have been able to shake his faith in the potential greatness in Pakistan
& his admiration of Jinnah.

It is rock-solid steadfast belief & hope in his PRINCIPLES that makes me feel that there maybe hope for Pakistan; afterall.

Ylh has been UNWAVERING in his VALUES..
because Jinnah was the basis of his values.

When you have towering personalities like Jinnah to shape your super-ego...
What hope do DUKKARS like you have to make ylh look like a fool?

Jeete raho, ylh!
When you have managed (single-handedly-at times) to twart all us slimy banias
who have buzzed around you like hornets..

Attempts to character assassinate you by..
PIGS like haroonelahi & Don Corleone are child`s play...

Dont you DARE leave Chowk because of rich ass*oles like haroon & Don

Romair #442

Godot #436: ``Okay, what if mullahs get elected and then refuse to give up power (screw you “liberals” and democracy and take a hike,” they’ll say to you,) turn Pakistan into theocratic state where the mullahs rule and Pakistan becomes Talibanized? What’s your strategy in that scenario? Or are you willing to live in a Talibanized Pakistan?``

`` This is paradox of democracy. And there is no way around it. It can happen anywhere, i.e. what if groups that one does not agree with get elected and can isolate other groups, after getting elected. ``

Nope. It is not a paradox. You can disqualify anyone who does not believe in the Constitution. You can make democracy a part of the Constitution. If the MMA does not believe in the Constitution you can send them home packing.

`` No Republican Candidate can now get the Republican nomination without the approval of the Religious Right. This is how an unknown and unproven Bush defeated McCain. This is how he eventually defeated Kerry also, despite having a bad economy and an Iraq fiasco. ``

Bob Dole was not exactly a religious conservative. Religious conservatives are important. They are not even majority of the Republican base.

`` Accordinng to Pew Research 45% of Americans now want religion in politics. And according to CNN 23% of the voters are outright Evangelicals. Shortly this group will indirectly control the Executive and Legislature (which it already controls) and the Judiciary.

Granted the Religious Right is not the Taliban, by Afghan standards. But do keep in mind that many liberals in the USA consider their Christian Evangelicals to be their Taliban........If you don`t believe me, go talk with gay couples and pro-choice women in America......... ``

Abortion is still legal in America. Nobody is burning and beating gays. The debate regarding gays is whether they should enjoy right to marriage.

`` Similarly, in India the BJP took over. And still is sitting at the edge of power. This is despite the fact that India has a secular Constitution and judicial system...........There are more than a few Muslims in India who are scared to death of Modi and Advani............ ``

You have a hard time saying the BJP is worse than the Pakistani Muslim League or PPP.

`` Election of religious political forces is actually seems to be the common trend in Muslim countries, now: Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey are good examples. If elections were held in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, I think religious parties would win. Northern Alliance in Afghanistan are religious (and as bad as Taliban according the RAWA women`s group). In Pakistan, MMA won two provinces, for the first time in history (?).``

MMA victories are due to manipulation by the military. You never acknowledge it.

`` however, Talibanism form of govt. and society has no basis, nor history in Pakistan. Anyone with any understanding of the Pakistani society will know that. Pakistan`s Islam is quite Sufiana at its core. It is Bulleh Shah, not Mullah Omar. Very conservative Islam could appear in Pakistan, though, through external events. So far it has appeared through the following events: ``

You have no qualms training them and equipping them.

`` Another thing that will strengthen such forces is if, ``Liberism`` is forced down the throats of Pakistanis through alliances with the West or by denigrating religious parties. Luckily, unlike the Arab and Turkish world, religious parties in Pakistan have been allowed to compete openly. Do keep in mind that while you (and I) may love the West, most Pakistanis are very Pakistan-centric. They have never been outside Pakistan.........And about 11% of the population supports rleigious parties....... ``

Religious parties have no influence among Baluchis, Sindhis, most of Mohajhirs and Pathan nationalists. They are a foil against secular political parties and ethnic nationalists.

`` So, let the society evolve, without external influences, from outside Paksitan (be they American or Saudi). It may evolve in the direciton you want, or it may not evolve in that direction. You (and I) have left the country and have voted with your feet. After that, it is up to the Pakistanis living there, and I think it is incorrect to start preaching to them on whom they should elect and not elect...............And on whether they should be proud to be Pakistanis or ashamed of being Pakistanis........... ``

By the same logic you could not criticize internal course of events in India or America.

Re: # 442

Romair,

You are forgetting two fundamental facts:

1. Western and Indian mullahs are not the same as the Islamic or Pakistani mullahs. Unlike Islamic and Pakistani mullahs, Western and Indian mullahs don’t try to shove their interpretation of religion down everybody’s throat.

2. When lost an election, a peaceful transfer of power to the winner. Once in power, Pakistani mullahs are highly unlikely to do that. In fact, once in power, Pakistani mullahs will so quickly and so radically suffocate everyone in Pakistan that people like you, me, and Haroon will not have time to cry, “mommy.”

That is precisely the dilemma and the danger Pakistan is facing today...

``This is known as the `law of abrogation`.``

Urstruly, will probably know the exact answer but it seems to me that the so-called law of abrogation pertained to Mosaic or Christian laws. Those laws or ``Sharias`` were deemed to be void by Mohammad as God had willed to complete the doctrine of The Religion (Allah`s religion/Abrahamic religion) with Quran. Quran had become the final, complete and Only source of doctrine.

I dont think this law of abrogation has anything to do with precedence within Quranic verses based on the chronology of their revelation.

#447 by haroonellahi on August 3, 2005 4:20pm PT


Arjun, why don`t you visit Pakistan? Be my guest. As in, it shall be a `Know thy enemy` trip too and perhaps a life-changing event. :)


no thanks...

I`d rather visit Nepal and Sri Lanka and Afghanistan.. I`ve always found afghans easy to get along with.. no chip on their shoulder.. unlike pakis for whom it`s always about kashmir and how big bad india is keeping them from their manifest destiny.....

in any case, a paki visa stamp on my passport isn`t a good career move when you want to get back into the DoD business...guaranteed knock on your clearance..

now care to answer the questions about how it`s never pakiland`s fault....

Is this true?

David Warren is a Canadian newspaper columnist. In today`s Ottawa Citizen, he says some disturbing things about Islam, which if true explain a historical basis of why Muslims in the West sing praises of pluralism and sing praises of sharia when in majority. http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/

Excerpt:

``Rather than say this myself, let me quote Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo, the ``traditionalist`` Anglican who directs the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity in London. He found himself recently trying to explain the crazy truth to a journalist who asked him about violent passages in the Koran, which Islamists quote constantly. ``Is there no part of the Koran which modifies these violent texts in the way that we would say our New Testament modifies the Old Testament?``

Dr. Sookhdeo: ``In fact the reverse is true. ... All the peaceful passages that are enjoined on Muslims occur in the chapters written at Mecca. They are tolerant toward Jews and Christians. But when Muhammad gets to Medina and sets up his city/religious state, the tone towards other groups changes rapidly. The statements about slaying the pagans and killing the Jews and others occur there. Now in Islamic interpretation, all passages that are revealed later take precedence over those revealed earlier. This is known as the `law of abrogation`.``

I quote this because it succinctly presents the one intractable fact that has prevented me from completing my own book manuscript, on ``Wrestling with Islam``. I am myself stuck, like Mr. Blair, in that modern Western headspace, delineated by President Bush when he said, ``Islam is a religion of peace.`` Well, yes, that is true: but only if you concede that the word ``peace`` means radically different things in the Islamic and Christian (or, ``Western``) traditions.

Each tradition is internally consistent. But the two start from nearly contrary premises about the nature of God, or Allah, and this leads to often opposite views on what is right and good and true. These are differences that have absolutely nothing to do with ``racial profiling``, and everything to do with ``what makes us tick``.

The Muslim conception of Allah is, in fact, much closer to classical Greek ideas of an omnipotent deity, than to ours of one who can agree to be crucified. Every notion of compassion turns on that point -- and ditto, ``tolerance``, ``forgiveness``, ``generosity`` and the like. ``Multiculturalism`` and ``cultural relativism`` are themselves perversions of an essentially Christian message; just as the gratuitous slaughter of civilians is a perversion of the Islamic message.``

Arjun, why don`t you visit Pakistan? Be my guest. As in, it shall be a `Know thy enemy` trip too and perhaps a life-changing event. :)

#445 by haroonellahi on August 3, 2005 3:38pm PT


The U.S invasion of Afghanistan has isolated the Paasthun population of Afghanistan, who constitute to roughly about 55% of the population in the nation.


Aww...your concern for the afghans is touching..wonder why we didn`t see it when the Pakistan created taliban was shoved down the throats of the afghan people...And in case you think the afghan pashtuns love you, think again...my experience, entirely anecdotal, is the opposite.. the brothers who run one afghan kabab place here in northern virginia hate paki gut...



Their insecurity translates into the insecurity of our Pathan brethren living in NWFP and other parts of Pakistan, which subsequently led to the rise of the M.M.A in NWFP.


Yup..when the paki junta elects an ally of the taliban to power in two major provinces of pakiland, it`s someone else`s fault...the pakis are never to blame for anything..If the brit-pakis blow themselves up and their fellow countrymen, blame the policies of the british government... If more than half the paki junta supports a mass murderer like Osama Bin Laden, it`s because they have some grievance..

Thank you Romair! Very well said!

The U.S invasion of Afghanistan has isolated the Paasthun population of Afghanistan, who constitute to roughly about 55% of the population in the nation. They have been left out in the cold by the power-sharing process and are looking more towards their brethren in NWFP, Pakistan. Their insecurity translates into the insecurity of our Pathan brethren living in NWFP and other parts of Pakistan, which subsequently led to the rise of the M.M.A in NWFP.

Godot, the only reason why I support democracy is, that because other systems of goverance, it recognize one crucial element, which the others fail to do so, and that is the nature of power. Power has the uncanny ability to corrupt just about any one except Allah and his prophets (PBUH).

Raw_dust, there are many friends of mine who are silent-readers, who if you people found out the identities of, would be quite amazed. Any hows, the bottom line is that we chose the democratic system of government in `47 and we have tried to maintain it, even though we have had many hickups along the way. I am highly optimistic that the current tehsil, union, and district nazim elections being contested in Pakistan will be done in an egalitarian manner, and they will set the precedent for the planned 2007 elections.

Raw_dust: are you being sarcastic or are you serious? If the latter, appreacite your comment :)

Re# 442

``This is paradox of democracy. And there is no way around it. It can happen anywhere, i.e. what if groups that one does not agree with get elected and can isolate other groups, after getting elected.``


Romair`s calling the possibility of constitutional-religous-fascism -``isolating other groups``. very nicely understated.

Haroon,
I hope you bring more of your friends to chowk. Your comments are valuable and helps to broaden the spectrum of opinions here, imo.

Godot #436: ``Okay, what if mullahs get elected and then refuse to give up power (screw you “liberals” and democracy and take a hike,” they’ll say to you,) turn Pakistan into theocratic state where the mullahs rule and Pakistan becomes Talibanized? What’s your strategy in that scenario? Or are you willing to live in a Talibanized Pakistan?``

This is paradox of democracy. And there is no way around it. It can happen anywhere, i.e. what if groups that one does not agree with get elected and can isolate other groups, after getting elected.

For a long time, in the USA, the conservatives complained that the liberals had done that to them. Now to some extent the conservatives (primarily the Religious Right) is starting to do it to the liberals.

No Republican Candidate can now get the Republican nomination without the approval of the Religious Right. This is how an unknown and unproven Bush defeated McCain. This is how he eventually defeated Kerry also, despite having a bad economy and an Iraq fiasco.

Accordinng to Pew Research 45% of Americans now want religion in politics. And according to CNN 23% of the voters are outright Evangelicals. Shortly this group will indirectly control the Executive and Legislature (which it already controls) and the Judiciary.

Granted the Religious Right is not the Taliban, by Afghan standards. But do keep in mind that many liberals in the USA consider their Christian Evangelicals to be their Taliban........If you don`t believe me, go talk with gay couples and pro-choice women in America.........

Similarly, in India the BJP took over. And still is sitting at the edge of power. This is despite the fact that India has a secular Constitution and judicial system...........There are more than a few Muslims in India who are scared to death of Modi and Advani............

Election of religious political forces is actually seems to be the common trend in Muslim countries, now: Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey are good examples. If elections were held in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, I think religious parties would win. Northern Alliance in Afghanistan are religious (and as bad as Taliban according the RAWA women`s group). In Pakistan, MMA won two provinces, for the first time in history (?).

Every election seems to leading to religious parties winning in the Muslim world. Hence religiously influenced or inclined political movements have gotten stronger in the Muslim world (including Pakistan), USA and India. While they have gotten weaker in Europe and Canada.........

The solution could be an independent judiciary. But the judiciary, itself is a product of the legislature and executive........not to mention, a product of the society as a whole......

however, Talibanism form of govt. and society has no basis, nor history in Pakistan. Anyone with any understanding of the Pakistani society will know that. Pakistan`s Islam is quite Sufiana at its core. It is Bulleh Shah, not Mullah Omar. Very conservative Islam could appear in Pakistan, though, through external events. So far it has appeared through the following events:

- Unconditional support to the USA during the first Afghan War (creation of militants and eventual support of Taliban)
- An alliance of convenience with Saudi Arabia, thereby accomodating a non-Pakistani Wahabbi version of Islam (radicalizing of some madrassahs)
- Unconditional support to the USA during the second Afghan War (MMA winning in NWFP and Baluchistan)

Another thing that will strengthen such forces is if, ``Liberism`` is forced down the throats of Pakistanis through alliances with the West or by denigrating religious parties. Luckily, unlike the Arab and Turkish world, religious parties in Pakistan have been allowed to compete openly. Do keep in mind that while you (and I) may love the West, most Pakistanis are very Pakistan-centric. They have never been outside Pakistan.........And about 11% of the population supports rleigious parties.......

So, let the society evolve, without external influences, from outside Paksitan (be they American or Saudi). It may evolve in the direciton you want, or it may not evolve in that direction. You (and I) have left the country and have voted with your feet. After that, it is up to the Pakistanis living there, and I think it is incorrect to start preaching to them on whom they should elect and not elect...............And on whether they should be proud to be Pakistanis or ashamed of being Pakistanis...........

Re: # 438

Haroon,

Just checking with your contingency plans...

bacchon ne hamdani ki le li :))

I second Don`s defensive comments to Mantolives inherently aggressive, militant, and klashinov-oriented nature.

You are the sole reason for the tensions which have been taking place on Chowk Hamdani. You were the one who first insulted Don and subsequently now you are crying crocdile tears. You are the author of all the problems in this disccusion. Accept it. Move on. And I would never send my childern to an institution if YOU were a teacher there, since you seem to be bent on degrading the face of Islam in mud!

P.S: I would like to quote a line from #427, `I decided to dissociate myself from the teaching profession which in any event is lost in rich elite schools... `

Hamdani, make up your mind, please! You wanted to put don and I on the cross because of the virtue that he and I are from well-off backgrounds. Then you argued that you are middle-class by every definition of the word ( which you are not, you are quite well-off too), but, I see a small contradiction here, and can you please correct it for me? Weren`t you in the same school as Don? In which you returned to `teach`, by the way, what did you try to teach, that was so intellectual that `rich, elititist` kids were not able to understand? You taught economics(from the book, nothing intellectual emitted from you) and Islamiat, in which we all know what you said. And now you have the audacity to write, `I decided to dissociate myself from the teaching profession which in any event is lost in rich elite schools... `

Hypocrisy...

Array Godot, why don`t you and Mantolives meet for lunch sometime and actually get your state of mind correct?

Kabhi Democracy ke narray lagathay ho ap log! Kabhi Secularism ke lagathay ho ap log? Make up your minds!

But to counter the threat of Mullah`s sitting and never leaving the seat of power, we need a just national guard, but this could be a recipe for diaster!

Re: # 427

ylh have u completly lost it now?the only thing you can say against me...is that im rich!!...what does that have to do with anything?!?!?! you keep repeating it over and over again...oh and when u are in ISLAMIATE teacher teaching 9th graders about islam u cannot and i repeat CANNOT tell us tht eid is a supid ritual!!!!...when in such an ifluential position you cannot do things like that...doesnt everyone agree?....and dont try to say that u acted like the bigger man..u acted `civily` but let ur best bud shankar be as crude as he wanted to be...and in fact encouraged him...oh and after my interact # 272...in which i admitted what i did was wrong and that i would like to stop, u conitnued attacking me in ur interacts...and ur still doing it!...is that what u call being mature?..,i am very offended to being equivelated with some as arrogant and closed minded as u...so romair please dont equivalate me with ylh...it is the worst inslut anyone could ever have given me...

Re: # 433

Haroon,

“Step 1 could initially lead to the rise of extremist-oriented people, since the election will be 100% impartial and state-machinery will not be supporting any candidates. The common man may fall to the rhetoric and manipulation of the religious extremists.”

Okay, what if mullahs get elected and then refuse to give up power (screw you “liberals” and democracy and take a hike,” they’ll say to you,) turn Pakistan into theocratic state where the mullahs rule and Pakistan becomes Talibanized? What’s your strategy in that scenario? Or are you willing to live in a Talibanized Pakistan?

Re: # 427

//nor is Don my student per se when I frankly admit that I didn`t teach him anything and he sure as hell did not learn ... //

if u didnt teach me anything...then how the hell was i supposed to learn anything?!

Re: # 428
We do not follow these mullahs or any others....we follow The Quran,The teachings of The Holy Prophet(pbuh)...just because some or most of `our` mullahs are fanatics doesnt mean we follow them...if an `islamic state` is an oxymoron then why was the area run by the Holy Prophet(pbuh) called an islamic state?We should have an islamic state but should not force islam on non-muslims...an ideal Islamic state ensures rights for it`s minorities.This is a proven fact.In the times of The Holy Prophet(pbuh) non-muslims were given freedom of worship,and as i have said before,powerfull positions in government...

As far as Jinnah`s Pakistani Ideal is concerned, in order for it to be manifested into reality, one has to take the following steps.

1. Introduce an egalitarian form of democracy, impartial in every way whatsoever.
Step 1 could initially lead to the rise of extremist-oriented people, since the election will be 100% impartial and state-machinery will not be supporting any candidates. The common man may fall to the rhetoric and manipulation of the religious extremists. However, if a truly democratic process is introduced, it will eventually lead to the victory of a more national, less regional, progressive, and masses-based political party, which will sooner or later breath life into Jinnah`s goal for Pakistan.

However, this is a very complicated process and one is looking at a 5-10 decade phase, and in order for point 1 to be met, point 2 will have to be started, which is,

2. Introduction of modern sciences, non-Islamic literature, liberal art subjects, co-existing with the current religion-oriented courses, so that we may never forget our identity but are empowered to march on with times. Islam the religion explicitly says `Read in the name of thy creator!`. Also, Islam also requires one to march forward with time.

The points enumerated in this comment and the last comment are the best recipe available for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to truly take it`s rightful place in the comity of nations.

Mantolives, you are as usual lieing. You and Don were fighting our your battles and then you wrote a `manifesto`, in which you spoke about how you must, as a `Pakistani` citizen stop people such as Don and I as you felt we were `wreaking havoc in Pakistan`.

That is the origin of problems as far as my issue with you as concerned. Mantolives is intelligent but his social skills have not developed, it seems like you are still in 8th grade. Do you know why he included me in that manifesto of his? Because I said to him on this forum that his remarks comparing Don and Ossama Bin Laden were made below the belt and were made in poor taste. He came online and threw a fit, about how I `betrayed` him by not condemning Don in public as well, and how he considered me to be his `close friend` and what not. Stop behaving like a child mantolives. I have clearly told you several times that my intention is no longer to interact with you.

Also, my ilog, in which you were dignified by being mentioned, was written after your constant attacks agaisnt me. Even though I hope you will register these facts, the chances of that actually happening are zilch. Please refrain from talking to me.

Tahmed, a wise man recently said to me that assumptions are the bane of human existence. Those humans who are able to question their ability to make assumptions and then to stop doing so take a step up towards enlightment. It is clearly evident from your inherently biased comment that you assumed that I support the mullahs or the current religious parties. Heck, you even have the guts to assume who will and who will not go to hell. Who in god`s name do you think you are to say that? Tobah tobah! The nature of that assumption itself leads me to question myself whether I should even take out the time to be interacting with some one as biased as yourself.

Let me reitrate what I`ve being saying;

1. Sustained economic growth + sustained growth of defensive war-waging capabilities.
2. Sustained development + sustained human development.
3. Economic integration with India, Iran, Central Asia, pipelines...
4. Independent judicary, National Reconcialiation Council, Independent Election commission
5. Immediate revision of madrassa curriculm(no eid bashing teachers, this is a Muslim majority country)
6. Projecting softer image of Pakistan,
7. Attracting tourism
8. Attaining more foreign direct investment,
9. Creation of an Islamic Common Market amongst Muslim countries, special emphasis on relations with Malayasia, Indonesia, North Africa, and lastly Central Asia.

All these things have to be done systematically and if there is a will then there is definately a way. :)

As of now, Pakistan is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and until majority of our people do not wish to remove the term Islamic, it is here to stay.

Re: # 428

Thanks tahmed sahab for your kind words of encouragement... coming from you they always mean a lot.

#427 by Mantolives on August 3, 2005 12:29pm PT



As for Jinnah spinning in the grave... he has been doing that for a very long time


That he is..and fast..

to borrow from a recent joke, you should have hooked him up to a generator...Would have solved Pakiland`s energy needs forever...

Re: # 426

This is shamelessness at its worst... and you know it.

I did not attack you... you`ve been writing ilogs after ilogs calling me a traitor and god knows what else. The most I responded with was that people like you wreak havoc on poor Pakistanis and you are a Pakistani Mcarthy ... which you have proved yourself amply by declaring anyone who doesn`t agree with you to be a Pakistan-hating traitor...

Talk about sectionalism and factionalism...

haroonellahi #426 You say the term ``secular Islam`` is in very poor taste. If you read and try to understand the message of the Quran, you would find this to be in fact the beauty of the Quranic teachings which places responsibility before God on the individual - NOT on the state and certainly NOT on any mullah or aalim or what not - for distinguishing between right and wrong. The mullah defies the Quran when he tries to declare Pakistan an ``Islamic state``, since the concept of an ``Islamic state`` is in fact the oxymoron.

I dont expect the above to fall on any but deaf ears. That is your problem. The future belongs to people like YLH, who are proud Pakistanis and proud muslims. Not arab bootlickers like the maulvis whose teachings you follow. (And even the arabs look down on these maulvis - Mullah Fazloo was denied entry to Dubai just yesterday on account of his terrorist links!! The central asian muslims have kicked out these Pakistani mullahs too. And rest assured that on Judgement Day - your mullah teachers will be sent straight to hell, along with their campfollowers. No question about that, given their wilful defiance of the Quran as mentioned above!!)

PS: It would be better if people like Romair and others atleast be fair and see that I did not at any point try and personalise this discussion with Don... he came and claimed (rather laughably) that he knew me well... even so I refrained from making any derogatory personal comments about the person despite the fact that I could have and despite the fact that Don used intense personal abuse and insults, not to mention extremely misleading comments about my personal life (threatening naively to make and repeat more). And yet... Romair is claiming some kind of moral equivalence here. I did not ask anyone to abuse me or call me a hypocrite... nor is Don my student per se when I frankly admit that I didn`t teach him anything and he sure as hell did not learn ...

As for Jinnah spinning in the grave... he has been doing that for a very long time. Since I did not want to add to his spinning velocity ... I decided to dissociate myself from the teaching profession which in any event is lost in rich elite schools...

I have never tried to impose my views on anyone. If a student asks me whether it is alright to pray in English, and I say that under classical jurisprudence it is indeed allowed to pray in a language you understand... I am entitled to my view. If a student asks me about Eid and I volunteer the information that Eid-ul-Fitr as such as no religious sanction but was a traditional Arab holiday that the Prophet incorporated within the Islamic rituals... I am again perfectly within my rights... If after that... a person comes to a forum and abuses me... and I still respond civilly ... I can`t be put on an equivalence with them..

So next time atleast be fair in your judgement.

Romair, in a nutshell, factionalism and sectionalism are two cancers, which will consume any nation alive unless they are discourged.

Pakistan could seriously consider creating a National Reconcialiation Council, the type they have in South Africa, in order to ease tensions, reverse the bitterness into happiness and then move forward towards creating a sense of nationhood for all Pakistanis.

Romair, I am not fighting with Mantolives, he was not able to dislodge Don from attacking him so he decided to insult me in order to save face, which he clearly has none.

Secularism is defined as, religious skepticism or indifference and the view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

The term, `Secular Islam`, is an oxymoron and was made in highly poor taste. It`s like saying to a conservative Jew that he/she may consume a Kosher Cheese Burger, or saying to the Hindu that you may consume cow meat.

Cultivating a secular mentality however is totally different and it is not an oxymoron.

:P

Re: # 420 romair
//Jinnah`s strength was that he united a large group of completely different people.... Somehow or the other, he was able to put them all on one platform..........//

And that ``strength`` has a name - it is called Islam .... All jinnah had to do was to shout ``Islam is in danger`` and rest was easy.... that is what I was talking about in the other forum - how the cynical use of islam by various personalities and countries has ultimately led to the dire consequences that we face today.

To be fair - Jinnha was not the only one who has cynically mis-used Islam..... the ``strength`` of islam has been mis-used by many muslim and non-muslim entities, including Americans. Even MK Gandhi [the Great Soul, the Apostle of Peace and what not...] has tried to mis-use islam - fortunately unsuccessfully. And such practice still continues in Indian Politics - mulayam, laloo, congress, commies still keep mis-using islam for their personal goals.

Islam has been and still is, a ready-made tool for anybody who needs the support of muslim masses to fulfill their own agendas. The sheep population [otherwise called muslims] continues to be willingly deceived by such tactics .... like zombies in some b-grade horror movie, they fan out in murderous hordes everytime somebody chants the magic mantra - ``islam is in danger`` or some variant of it.

Re: # 420

Romair,

Refer to 419

#417, Friend {``While we must compliment Godot for writing this article, credit for 416 posts go to Yaseer, Haroon and team for making this board their school play-ground..``}

Dost, very fine point and I will agree that Haroon, Manto, Arjun, and Romair have consumed more than their share at Godot`s table. :)

SM Romair
May I give you an advice?

Since 1/1/2001, you posted 3670 interactions, i.e. 2.19 interaction per day. How do get any time? Most of your interactions are 1 page long...

BTW other big time wasters
Ahmek - 5.01 posts/day 4925 posts/984 days
Manto - 4.15 posts/day 3072 posts/740 days
Arjun - 3.09 posts/day 5175 posts/1673 days
myself - 0.37 posts/day 747 posts/1977 days

oh boy....capt clueless has just implied that jinnah is irrelevant to today`s Pakiland..

manto is going to have an apoplexy...

Mantolives #376: ``Romair has given you sound advice. But you only took his praise of your passion and forgot to read his advice. His second post is very relevant. Hope you will read that...``

You may want to entertain my advice as well.

There is no argument, stance, point of view so important that it is worth dividing a community. It doesn`t matter if the argument was uttered by Jinnah or Iqbal or anyone else. Division of a group or a community, just to push one`s own point of view (regardless of how much one believes in it) maybe productive for one`s self, or for the group one represents. But it will always be harmful for the community, as a whole...........

Jinnah`s strength was neither his secularism, nor his oratory skills, nor his passion. Nor any kind of vision - religious or secular - that he may have had for Pakistan. 90% of Pakistanis, even today, cannot understand the English language he used. And 95% cannot understand the concept of his speeches. Yet nearly all the Pakistanis believe in him. Including those who disagree with his philosophies........

Jinnah`s strength was that he united a large group of completely different people. Somehow or the other, he was able to put them all on one platform. There was some part of him that appealed to everyone. Even communities who knew they were not going to be a part of Pakistan, followed him!! This is despite the fact that as a person, he had nothing in common with the people he was leading. They didn`t live like him, they didn`t talk like him, many of his personal habits were sacreligious to them.........It would be the equivalent of me listening to someone who is talking to me in Swahili, wearing an African dress........Yet still following him........

People who polarize societies and countries can never lead them in the long run. They can, at best, divide them, and lead their own part. There is nothing wrong with that, if that is their aim and they are leading a freedom movement, which fears persecution. However, if there aim is to get their whole community to progress, then they are far more harmful to the community, than helpful.

What Pakistan needs is not a group of individuals who are hell-bent on isolating the maulvis and pushing them into a corner. Nor does it need a group of individuals that is hell-bent on isolating the non-maulvis and pushing them into a corner. Both groups may be convinced that they are serving Pakistan, but they are actually serving themselves. Regardless of whether they win or lose, Pakistan will lose...........

What Pakistan needs is someone who accepts the fact that opposing points of views exist in Pakistan. And, instead of polarizing the society, he/she can get both groups to follow him/her. Not someone who can unite with Urstruly and destroy Hamidm. Or unite with Hamidm and destroy Urstruly. But someone, who at some level can appeal to both of them. They may both continue to disagree with him and with each other, but he can find some common factor that can get both of them to follow along...........

That is leadership...........

And that is what Jinnah did. If you continue to just dissect his speeches, legal papers, and court cases, you will become a pretty good lawyer or historian or biogrpaher. But that`s about it. You will, at best, become a Stanley Wolpert or an Ayesha Jalal. Neither of whom is known to 99% of Pakistanis.

If you want to understand why Jinnah appealed, and still appeals, to so many common Pakistanis; all of whom followed him, in many cases, against the wishes of their secular and religious leaderships and masters, you will have to stop concentrating on the text of his speeches. Since 95% of his followers could not even speak English, they obviously did not follow him for his speeches or legal arguments or secular or religious arguments that he made in those speeches......

They followed him, because he was a leader who was able to unite people with vastly different points of views, in one direction............Before that, he tried, albeit unsuccessfully, to unite even a larger and more diverse group of people across India......

So if your aim is to divide Pakistan into an independent Secularistan and an independent Religionistan, you are doing a good job and are well on your way. Nothing wrong with that, if that is really what you want. However, if your aim is to strengthen a united Pakistan, with both its positive and negative secular forces, and positive and negative religious forces, moving in one direction, they you are going in the wrong direction.........And doing more harm than good, despite your good intentions..........The last thing Pakistan needs are its teachers and students, trying to humiliate each other on public websites, or anywhere else.........Jinnah must be rolling in his grave..........

You may want to set aside Jinnah`s speeches and philosophies, for a while, and study his leadership style for a change. It was the later (which every Pakistani understood) and not the former (which barely any Pakistani understood or understands today) that created Pakistan............

I have no clue what revolutions Haroon Elahi is imagining. I certainly don`t want people to stop practising Islam or any other religion they wish to practice.

Let the process continue... let the current (yes the mixed identity-part theocratic part democratic) constitution reign supreme.. let there be elections... let the process go on for 4 or 5 decades... ultimately you would have a perfectly modern secular democratic state...

I don`t know why secularism and/or Islam needs to cultivate a mentality.. secularism atleast only says - you do your thing and I do mine ... and as long as you don`t stop me from doing my thing, I won`t stop you from doing your thing...

A great majority of the people who founded this country, say what you may about them, believed in the process of deliberation instead of arbitrary power. It is the absence of this deliberation that is root cause of Pakistan`s ills... it is not to say that deliberation is flawless...

But even with an illiterate and conservative population the deliberative process has erred only twice... in 1949 and then in 1974... but compared to arbitrary nonsense unleashed upon us by the Military... its a lot less...

-YLH

PS: My intention was not to make this any playground... I have not responded to Haroon Elahi and ilk in kind. I think any one can see it...

Arjun wrote:
``India = civilization with culture..indian food, yoga etc etc. ``

Arjun, you are correct - but that is only one aspect. The more important aspect is
Indian philosphical influence on modern western philosophical categories.

These are profoundly important - beause they influence everything about
our categories of thinking including science,politics etc. This influence is not widely
acknowledged in the west today, but that is changing.

#416
Salim
While we must compliment Godot for writing this article, credit for 416 posts go to Yaseer, Haroon and team for making this board their school play-ground..

Godot, #415,
Thank you, my friend. Who says fatwas aren`t fun? :)
If I made you laugh, then it makes my day.
Let me also compliment you for this excellent article in which you do not shy away from bitter truths. You confront the issue head-on, and judging by the approaching 500 post mark, you have been very successful in generating interest.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks,
Salim.

Re: # 413

Salim, dude, this is by far the best post I’ve read at Chowk in the longest time. Can’t stop laughing at “MudderAss”!!!

and here is the Premwalla #412 post that was filtered out:

Pakistan was ostensibly created to preserve Islam, provide a haven for Muslims of the subcontinent where they could practice their faith in peace, in unity, with their lives and property secure. With the notable and sad exception of Modi`s Gujarat, India is much closer to than vision that Pakiland.
Salim

It is a shame that I have to switch nics to get my viewpoint expressed. Sorry, Mr. Rsridhar, but by masquerading as you, I am able to confuse Chowk Staff so that they don`t filter me out.

I have good news. Pakis, eat your hearts out. I have just stumbled across a fat fatwa. According to the famoous fundo mulla rock star, Shariah Qairy, it is totally Islamic for Kashmiris to be part of India. You see, the lovable and amiable President of India, Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam is a Muslim and a pretty good one at that - the strongest drink he has had was a glass of fermented coconut milk in MudderAss. As long as India has a Momin as head of state, India is considered DAR-UL-ISLAM and not DAR-UL-KUFR. OTOH, Mushy, while equally lovable, has been known to ingest a couple now and then. Also, he has been known to keep canine company right in his own house - thus preventing the visitation from angels to the President`s House in the Land of the Pure.

As long as Kashmiris pray for the health, wealth, and wisdom in their Juma prayers for their president, it is totally Halal for Kashmir to be part of India. Of course, India would have to have a Muslim President for this to continue - talk about job security.

Salim

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

dukkar = pig.

All of you amuse me! Condescending? Yes, that precisely is the intention.

There is no mystery behind disappearance of Pakistanis --
1. NCC Havaldar-Major Romair has advised his rung-roots to ``naujawano jang jaare rakho`` and is himself now sitting in shade drinking tea and smoking ``bidi``.

2. New recruits are learning how do dodge mine-fields of questions related to Kashmir gifted to China, lack of representation of northern territories, repatriation of biharis from Bangladesh, involvement of Pakistani army in starting Kargil and 1965 wars etc.

3. Older ``ghise huay`` sipahi are again reading the book because book says so.

4. and some smart professional journalists, who can write 90 full length articles, are suddenly suffering from amnesia...

Shankar #various: You had mentioned you were vacationing in Bombay. I hope you are enjoying yourself. I think I saw you on BBC. Is that you on the scooter, wearing the raincoat :-)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4724245.stm

i was in the US Shahid javed Burki was at that point at the World bank.

much has been done to liberalise trade between india and china but much more remains to be done. with an adjustment time of 5 years for domestic manuf. the tarriffs should be scaled down to zero.

Shankar saheb
For once please explain what is a ``dukkar``? (I know some Pakistanis who are dhukkan, or dukkan, but what is a dukkar)

Re: # 397
hindvi,

{{Once javed burki came to my school to speak}}

Just where do you live, sir?

Even Romair`s biggest teacher Burkhi...
says the war of a 1000 cuts,,
has been more detremental to Pakistan than India

I wonder how that Azaad Kashmiri dukkar spun THAT!

Re: # 400
hindvi,

The reason these Pakis dont want to read our posts (& they are curiously absent from these discussions)...
is that its TOO painful to swollow the ``bitter pill of TRUTH``.

What do they do?

They curse the messenger!!!!!:))

India should build a Berlin wall between Pakistan & herself.
But it should be low enough where Indians can go
Khaa thooo...
over the fence; when they act like their s@it dont stink

India & China are going through a major shift in their mutual relationship.
The trade between the 2 countries is geometrically increasing.
Surprisingly, (the last time I looked), the balance is in India`s favor.

If Pakistan acts like they are doing India a FAVOR...
by ALLOWING itself to be friends with India..
why the F should India reciprocate?!!

Bhaaad mein gaya Pakistan!
We know how much their other 2 neighbors (Iran & Afghanistan)...
looooove them!

Wow! This is an article on Pakistan and 32 of the last 36 interacts are from Indians. Where have all the Pak chowkies gone?

Hindvi:

Some good posts from you. I think India and China have substantially liberalized their trade and may be on their way towards free trade. And the results are indeed beneficial for both India and China, much against the dire predictions of some Indian businessmen. However, to ensure a level playing field, India must improve its system to facilitate improvement in physical infrastructure.

Re: # 395

{{Friendship between Hindustan and Pakistan has never really started but for the time being it is wiser to become friends with India,}}

In other words...this guy is saying...
Its WISE to be India`s friend TODAY...
We can always stab them in the back tomorrow.

Jesus.H.Christ!!!

Vaju leant that after Lahore, when that Dukkar Mushy stabbed him in the back with Kargil.
You think we slimy banias havent from that lesson.

Maybe katlu dukkars dont learn from history
Slimy brahmin banias do!

The GALL of these pigs!

Re: # 396
Friend;

Bhai jaan
paanch rupees?
Gimme a break yaar
You call this poetry?!. Have you seen 1 word rhyming?

Shute; I would`nt know poetry..
if it hit me on the face:))

Maybe the key to the region lies with India it should open its borders to free trade with China, both are developing nations and because china is doing better India will gain tens of billions in both increased savings and improved efficiency thanks to the competition. This will also be a message to the rest of south asia (central asia allready is fairly open in economic policies) not to let geopolitics interfere with economics, that india is leading by example and is not insisting on trade with the smaller countries only because its own position is strategically secure.

i think here India must take the initiative and grant free trade status to China on a reciprocal basis. both for the direct savings and efficiency this will yield directly and for the demonstration effect it will have on the smaller countries in the region leading to additional economic gains and political security/confidence, lowering military expenditure drains on development activity.

#395 by haroonellahi on August 3, 2005 5:17am PT


The fringe elements within our society need to be reformed and those people whose immune system could fall for extremism need to be saved from the jaws of fanatacism.


Almost none of the pakis nailed for acts of terrorism have been from the ``fringe elements``...Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh went to LSE...the London bombers were well off..Mohammed Naeem Noor Khan wasn`t a terrorist because he didn`t have access to computers...

They were terrorists because the ruling class in Pakistan encouraged fundamentalism in Pakistan as a way of producing jihadis to fight for Pakiland in held Kashmir....while abdul pakis son went from madrassah to held Kashmir, the well educated and well off terrorists targeted the west..

TCS should be reprimanded for doing business with Pak.NOW THEY want sugar!!.Pak has lifted the 4 year ban on indian sugar `cause they ain`t got none and guess where they can get some??.India.BOUNTIFUL INDIA.Guess what??.We ain`t gonna give.Unless you give us land lines to Afghanistan.Till then you can continue to pay high prices.When it`s convenient they come groveling.What next will they want?.OUR LAND , at this rate.Fresh, is what the Paks are!!.

people here are still obssesed with secular islam and unsecular islam, jinnah and water.

Once javed burki came to my school to speak, i found the rest of the lecture ok but he said a comment at the end which rings true, he said that corruption affects both countries to a significant extent but since it is an intractable problem india has moved ahead with economics pakistan is still launching anti corruption trials and drives and holding up economics to moral upliftment.

the greatest boost pakistan`s economy could get at the lowest cost is by opening up its borders on the east, west and north.

Would someone in Mumbai please pay five rupees to Shankar and kindly request him to stop posting his boring poems!!

Shankar mian,
I do not know how good you are as a doctor, but take my advise, poetry is not a career for you.

“Secular Islam” is the Islam that is gentle, tolerant, and above all, personal. It’s fine to have Islam running in your veins and is the light in your heart. It’s that Islam has no business in the affairs of the State, as the State is blind as to who is a Muslim, Christian, Zoroastrian, Hindu or a Qadiani. For the State, there is no difference among them and they all are Pakistanis and are equal before the State. “Secular Islam” is keeping your religious practices to yourself and not shoving it down everybody’s throat. “Secular Islam” means not shutting down restaurants in daytime during Ramzan. If a rozdar wants to open his iftar with a glass of whiskey, then let him; that’s “Secular Islam.”

There is nothing wrong with Islam the religion today. There is only one sort of Islam and that is the Islam, which was followed by the holy prophet. Besides, `Let there be no compulsion in religion` conjuction, does that not give you a hint what the true nature of Islam the religion is?

There has definately been a rise of militancy and extremism in Pakistan, but that is as a result of our own mujaheedin returning from the jihad agaisnt the Soviet Union from Afghanistan, and subsequently introducing their own twisted brand of Islam. The fringe elements within our society need to be reformed and those people whose immune system could fall for extremism need to be saved from the jaws of fanatacism. That can only be achieved when the Madrassa system is properly reformed, a more modern curriculm is introduced (please, no eid-bashing-teachers) and employment oppurtunities are increased for the people of Pakistan.

I think what you should have said was, in order for it to be more diplomatic and less contreversial, Pakistani should cultivate a `Secular Mentality` amongst it`s citizens as envisioned by it`s founding father Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Now we could always have a revolution (as mantolives would like) and become into a 100% secular state, but that would rip the country into a million pieces. Sustained promotion of TRUE Islamic Ideals alongside sustained promotion and cultivation of a national Secular Mentality, that is the only way forward.

As for Kashmir, we can never accept the morality of India`s occupation and I think it is a time tested fact that no two nations can be friends forever. Friendship between Hindustan and Pakistan has never really started but for the time being it is wiser to become friends with India, increase trade, whilst increasing our defensive-war waging capabilities and economic power. The water issue is definately going to be on the minds of all true Pakistanis and the solution for this is that gas and oil pipelines should orginate from Central Asia and Iran, transit through Pakistan and end in India. Even though India will be controlling the headworks of a much more precious commodity, water, at least we will have a control of this commodity to let India know that we can turn off the taps on them too, but water is the life-line of this country.

The textile industry of Pakistan indirectly employs 67% of our population. OVer 80% of our population is in the agrigulture sector and securing our life-line is a must.

Re: # 376


Or would you prefer the Salem Witch Hunt trials? The flesh could be fed to the dogs.

a sad reflection because in international trade theory the small country always gains more on opening of trade with a large neighbour.

Pakistanis dont seem to consider this an important topic, a sad reflection on their priorities, ion my opinion there is no more important topic infront of Pakistan.

Re: # 388

hindvi sahab,

After 58 years of independance...
they are STILL trying to figure...
their national identity...

their SHAMELESS miltry
has brainwashed them
that India wants to annex Pakistan...

Nice propaganda pal...
their DUKKAR military needs their population to hear crapola like that...
to maintain a lavish lifestyle for themselves..

What these Islaam ka mashoor pehelwans
havent realised is that...
we Hindians...
AINT AS DUMB AS WE LOOK!!!

Gobbling up Pakisttan is like
swallowing a rancid piece of meat..
& dying of ...
FOOD POISONING!!!

Waaaah!
Dukkar Hindian propaganda!!!

#389 by hindvi

[....they do have a slightly distinct culture but after 58 years it should now be able to survive on its own.....]

While you may be true, how many Pakis would like to identify themselves as such without the fear of being lynched, especially after 9/11 and 7/7? Most Paki store/restaurant owners I`ve been to in the west go out of their way to call themselves Indian. A far cry from what Captain Clueless (Romair) envisaged when after 9/11 he boasted that Indians would have to wear t-shirts with Paki flags to save themselves.

``fear? There is no Pakistani culture outside of Pakistan...if there was, mansukhbhai patel would be running a paki food restaurant in arlington instead of abdul paki running an indian food restaurant in springfield... ``

that was funny, but seriously having been in close contact with them they do have a slightly distinct culture but after 58 years it should now be able to survive on its own or is it like the infant industries of import substituting industrialisation which never grew up.

This issue of a minority loosing its identity is deep and has bedevelled muslims of the subcontinent since before partition, infact in the muslim minority provionces of UP and Bihar this was one of the causes for support of the league in the face of a resurgent hindu conciousness as evident from injection of hindi in the school syllabus and ban on cow slaughter, performance of religous prayers in meetings and inaugurations.

with the mass media overwhelmingly indian (i.e. culturally hindu) and the muslims being smal in number this fear of loosing there identity has continued to bedevil the muslims of india and is also evident in the pakistani reluctance to trade or develop closer ties.

its a universal phenomenon seen from Quebec to northern ireland and the basque to the kurds, chechiniyians, to some extent the kashmiris. The only places where it has been satisfactorily solved is where there is no dominant player as in the EU or the ASEAN or where the members are culturally very similar as in US-Canada, Latin America or where the group itself is very large such as the WTO or APEC.

I dont know how it can besolved in South Asia with a still heavily centralised India.

#384 by hindvi on August 3, 2005 3:59am PT


or is the betrayel of kashmiris just an excuse, and the real fear is that of being swallowed by a murch larger hostile neighbour?


They`re worried about the rivers...The major rivers flowing into Pakistan flow there through held Kashmir...The pakis depend heavily on these rivers...especially the pakis in paki punjab..


Maybe there is a fear of being culturally swamped


fear? There is no Pakistani culture outside of Pakistan...if there was, mansukhbhai patel would be running a paki food restaurant in arlington instead of abdul paki running an indian food restaurant in springfield...

It`s clear as daylight...

India = civilization with culture..indian food, yoga etc etc.

Pakistan = country where most jihadis come from...

but arjun m man has always been guided by self interest, he is like all other animals by nature selfish, even that finest philosopher of human nature Adam Smith told us that the baker did not supply us with bread due to the goodness of his heart, nor the cobbler shoes, but out of the individual pursuit of self interest emerged the greater good. There are deeper psychological reasons for pakistan`s avoidance of trade with india, they are related to the issue of identity, and I dont understand how that can be solved.

yoo hoo el-capitan...how come it`s the madrasis from TCS who`re giving the Paki IT industry it`s biggest boost...shouldn`t it be you, with your experience in advising CIO/VP types in setting up IT departments...

And pakis...wassup wit dis? How come you`re willing to accept TCS` help without the Kashmir issue being resolved first? What happened to the rights of the Kashmiris? Remember: TCS probably pays a lot of taxes to the Indian government...taxes they probably use to deny the kashmiris of their allah given right

Firms Plan Landmark India-Pakistan Business Deal

By S. Mitra Kalita
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 28, 2005; Page D01

India`s biggest software exporter plans to open a training center in Pakistan this fall, venturing across a heavily guarded border to launch the first formal joint venture between major companies from the rival nations.

Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., part of India`s Tata conglomerate, seeks to team up with Pakistan-based Techlogix Inc. to offer software engineering courses for technology workers in Lahore. Tata officials say that they hope to eventually create a software development facility in Pakistan and that the training center will help ease the company into the market.

or is the betrayel of kashmiris just an excuse, and the real fear is that of being swallowed by a murch larger hostile neighbour? and where lies the solution? I think if there had been no iranian/central asian fuel pipeline than this might be a valid fear but with such a strong bargaining chip it doesnt make sense. Maybe there is a fear of being culturally swamped does a solution exist for that? no idea.

#378 by hindvi on August 3, 2005 1:36am PT

It`s all about the interest of the paki ruling class...

When the internet link went down, they came grovelling on their knees begging for a backup through India....Even the ``crackdown`` on the radical madrassahs are to protect their own visas, not out of the goodness of their hearts....

Even in india the opening up of the economy was finally forced by international institutions after the bankruptcy brought on by import substituting industrial policies, and even later domestic liberalisers continued to use that episode as an excuse to push the economy to open up. Otherwise vested business, labour and polictical interests operated in India too for decades, and still are slowing the reform process. So I can understand the pressures exerted by domestic interests in pakistan, but where are the reformers after Mehboob ul haq and what about the middle class constituency for liberalisation? why is trade with india considered a betrayel of kashmiris?

hindvi #378

{{why would a people willingly inflict injury worth more than billions of dollars a year on themselves is truly puzzling? does it stem from ignorance, i wonder.}}

Well, yes, a large volume of direct trade (rather than a smaller volume, and indirect through UAE for instance) might improve the lot of the Pakistani awam. But how do the real wielders of power in Pakistan perceive its effect on their interests? Should one believe that the Pakistani ruling establishment unequivocally places the material welfare of its subjects above some ideologically defined ‘national interest’?

hindvi #380

{{i still find it baffling, that a country would ignore billions of dollars on its doorsteps while aquiring billions in debt from third parties.}}

A ramshackle democracy like India has great difficulty in ensuring that development funds are used for the intended purpose. Much of it is siphoned away.

What do you think happens in a system that probably has far less accountability to its people because of its failure to develop entrenched democracy? Where do you think the borrowed billions go?

i still find it baffling, that a country would ignore billions of dollars on its doorsteps while aquiring billions in debt from third parties.

#378 by hindvi

[what i dont understand is what prevents pak from trading with india while maintaining kashmir as a core issue after all it would only strengthen pakistan.]

Hindvi Bhai, you know what is even more amusing? That Pakistan is depserate to have India accept a pipeline from Iran through its territory, you know the cash cow that will bring millions of dollars in transit fees, yet it doesn`t even reciprocally grant MFN status to India, something that India has done a long while ago. ``Saanp bhi mar jaaye aur lathi bhi na toothe``!!

[why would a people willingly inflict injury worth more than billions of dollars a year on themselves is truly puzzling? does it stem from ignorance, i wonder.]

You know there is something called ``cutting your nose to spite the face`` or ``apne hi pairon pe kulharee maarna``.

what i dont understand is what prevents pak from trading with india while maintaining kashmir as a core issue after all it would only strengthen pakistan. if the fear is that india would aquire a strangle hold on the pak economy than pakistan can make the trade conditional on india accepting fossil fuel pipelines originating from Iran and central asia across Pak. On thios issues I find even the most liberal pakistanis like hamidm intransigent.

why would a people willingly inflict injury worth more than billions of dollars a year on themselves is truly puzzling? does it stem from ignorance, i wonder.

Ordinary indian citizens in Delhi going home after work using the Delhi metro subway system.India is moving ahead despite various obstacles and despicable neighbors....


Interior of kashmere gate subway station


Interior of subway car


Fugeddabout the loser Paks!!.

Haroon,

Ofcourse I am not much of a debater. Unlike you I didn`t win any school/university elections (or did I--and more importantly did you?). Nobody asked you to be ashamed of being a Pakistani, least of all Godot who has been an inspiration for many many many years for proud Pakistanis on this board. The rest of your discussion and debate is merely abuse and personal attacks. Romair has given you sound advice. But you only took his praise of your passion and forgot to read his advice. His second post is very relevant. Hope you will read that...

As for my stance on Kashmir and/or Secular Islam, I have already responded about these issues in detail. If you are blind enough to read then I am sorry, I am not going to spell it out for you and encourage a teenage Mcarthy-in-the-making on Chowk.

Haroon,

As a proud right-wing Indian, let me spell it out for you. India will never give you anything on Kashmir, no territory, no joint control, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada. Why should we? We are a democratic, secular country, while you are a tinpot dictatorship. Kashmiris in India are full citizens and elect their own government, while in your country Musharraf decides everything. Our economy is booming, while in your country people are committing suicide because of unemployment. We are militarily much more powerful and you can never match us. We have pretty much the same number of muslims living in India as in Pakistan but they do not suffer bomb blasts in mosques.

So why the hell should we give you anything? You have a lousy track record as a country and you cannot take care of your own people. You committed genocide on Bangladeshis forcing them to secede. You are the biggest hub of international terrorism today.

Dont you feel ashamed asking for more territory when your people are already in so much misery? The reality is - PAKISTAN IS A GIGANTIC FAILURE!!

The reality is that Pakistan has failed because of its Kashmir fixation. Kashmir is the reason your army grabbed power and has now become a gigantic mafia with your Army Chief behaving as a Godfather. Kashmir is the reason, your mullahs have gone nuts and radicalized your society, creating a jihadi nightmare for the whole world. Kashmir is the reason your economy makes zero progress since all your resources go to the army and you are not willing to have normal economic relations with India. Kashmir is the reason you are not even able to exploit your geo-strategic location between South Asia and Central Asia, since everything is left hostage to solving Kashmir. Kashmir is the reason, why collectively as a nation, you cannot focus on building your nation, since all your energy gets wasted on an obsession. It is like being obsessed with a beautiful girl that you cannot have. You cannot move on and lead a normal life since she is the only thing on your mind but you can never have her. This is the tragedy of Pakistan. The day you give up Kashmir and move on, Pakistan will become a different country. Until then, you will remain in the gutter.

I am disappointed that people are hurling insults at each other. IMO Godot wrote what I considered a thoughtful provocative article for both Pakistanis and Indians. If people disagree with Godot choices I think they need to say why they disagree. It is not like Godot is a decision maker of some sort.

Ladies & Gentlemen...

Let me re-iterate a TRUE story told to me by my classmate...
Dr Sohaib & his lovely wife...
last week...

Q) How dou you get into a fist fight with an Indian Muslim?
A) Call him a bloody Pakistani....

Q) How do you make an Indian muslim homicidal?
A) Call him a f*cking Pakistani!

Re: # 370

PS
This is a Chowk...

Not a goddamned temple or a mosque...

If you want ``civility`` or `` good manners``

go to a temple...

Lord knows,
mosques in Pakistan...
these days
are spewing such filth...

that they have converted...
Allah into Shaitan ...
in the eyes of the non-Islamic world

Thodi-si akl istemaal karo...
Thoda sa REAL INTROSPECTION karo!

O-Islam ke masoor pehelwanon...
Shame on you

Re: # 370

malik 99,

{{i gave up on looking for sense in your writings. please dont take offense to that. its just that with so many other high calbre and sincere people writing on this board, its gets hard to pay attention to folks like you}}

Just because I tell you the blunt truth
angrily & profanely sahi...

Doesnt mean it ISNT the truth...

I`m not FISHING for complements from you...
The sun will shine in my life..
& the birds in my sing in my life...

whether youu Pakis LIKE me or not..

INTROSPECT
on the message...

Dont patronise the messenger...
by standing in MORAL judgement of him!!!!...

Trust me;
I dont give a rat`s rear...
what a goddamn Paki THINKS of me

but if youre nation is too COWARDLY
to accept the truth...

You can COLLECTIVELY...
wring your hands & say...
Why does the WORLD...
not TRUST us?!...

Booohooo!!!!
we have been sooooo goood to insaaniyat...
& its MORE everybody ELSE``S fault...
than our own....

The BITTER, PROFANE truth is...

Other than Jinnah...
Each & every one of your national leaders...
all have behaved like COWARDLY PIGS...

They have spat upon the face of the ...
father of the nation....

Worse than that...
they have spat upon the face of...
the Holy Prophet(pbuh)

Islaaam ke mashoor pehelwano!...
get some national CHARACTER first...

Then have the BALLS to stand in judgement...
of other nations...

Khuda Hafiz

shankar #369 - i wish i could return your gesture of quoting me. unfortunately, having skimmed through some of your earlier posts, i gave up on looking for sense in your writings. please dont take offense to that. its just that with so many other high calbre and sincere people writing on this board, its gets hard to pay attention to folks like you.

Re: # 335

Malik sahab!!

{{{romair # 329 - I swear I could have said the same thing in less than 5 lines :)}}}

Hahahaha!!
Sixer mara hai...
aap ne!!!

What a TANGLED WEB of ``spin doctoring`` he weaves...

He lives in that own spider`s web Of ``unreality`` & ``cluelessness``...
that he has ``spun`` for himself...

He CONSOLES himself...
by call himself ...
``OBJECTIVE``!!!!

Get REAL!!!...
Mr Umair Butt Fakhr!!!

I have been PEERING into human minds since 1982...
so,
you would say...
I have been a ``student`` of the human mind...
NOBODY...not even Dr Sigmund Freud (pbuh)...
is an EXPERT in the human mind (Freud`s words)...

these few years Romair has given me an opportunity to PEER into his mind...

Of course, you can ``make up`` whatever personality you want in cyberspace...

...
He lives in that ``web`` of self- made unreality...
He CLAIMS he denounces all the ``murderous``; ``thuggish`` guerella warfare...
of these shameless ``freedom fighters``

BUTT
BUTT..

There is always a ``BUTT`` in every Pakistani DUKKAR mentality...
(As Mazdak so ELOQUENTLY put it...)
its PRIMARILY ...
Hindia`s fault...

Ofcourse the DUKKAR Azaadi Kashmiris have...
NOTHING to do with Al-Qeeda!

WHERES THE PROOF?!!!

Hahaha!
Patronising Azaaaaaaaaaad Kashmiri PIGS!!!

Just like Al-Qeeda has hijacked Islam...
These Azaaaaaaaaaaad Kashmiris have HIJACKED Pakistan...

Fortunately, I have had the honor of meeting...
several DECENT Pakistanis like you...
malik sahab...

So from 1 slimy brahmin dukkar...
to a decent katlu dukkar...

May Allah`s grace
ALWAYS shine on...
You & your family...
malik sahab...

And may Allah not ABANDON
Your great nation..
despite the arrogant ziddi...
of these PIGS of Islam...
Azaaaaaaad Kasmiris!!!!!

Sir,
Walikng the ``HIGH road`` is the....
LAST REFUGE...
of argument
...that these hijakers of Pakistan (& Islam)

CLING TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Khuda Hafiz

#367 by shankar on August 2, 2005 7:31pm PT

yedzava samazla ahe to saglyana...jasa ahe tasa sangitla....

if he can`t handle it, that`s his problem...

Re: # 327

arjun_m,

{{Mr. friend please say why India has been violating human right of Kashmiri for so long?


1. Because they can..
2. Because there isn`t anything you can do about it... }}

That was ONE Allah-damned ARROGANT statement...
you Bihari atheistic dukkar:))!!!

If you arent that weasel dukkar Saxena;
you are his frikking ...
TWIN BROTHER!!!!

yes kid....listen to captain chacha and good things will happen...

wonder why these things happen to pakis and not afghans...didn`t the FBI get the memo..The one titled ``Pakis only support the good jihadis``....

A neighborhood in a fishbowl
Little Pakistan has lost plenty of residents since 9/11, and many who stayed behind are struggling to adapt

long a stretch of Coney Island Avenue, butchered goats hang by their hooves in the rear of a grocery store, and a meaty white fish arrives from the home country every Friday for deep frying in the kitchens of South Asian restaurants. In this part of Brooklyn, lassi, a yogurt drink served salty or sweet, is at least as popular as Snapple.

While in some ways, life goes on as usual in Brooklyn`s Little Pakistan, in many other ways, much has changed.

Probably no ethnic enclave, in a city chockablock with them, has drawn as much FBI and immigration-service investigation since 9/11. Merchants say the neighborhood is still staggering from the attention, while many residents fearfully anticipate a new wave of scrutiny by U.S. authorities in light of the recent terror attacks in London.



Leaving Little Pakistan

In the tense weeks after 9/11, federal agents began pounding on doors in the middle of the night and detained hundreds of Pakistanis in the Little Pakistan area. Thousands of people, gripped with fear, soon bolted. Many of them went to other states, back to their homeland, to Canada or even Western Europe.

Few have returned, by all accounts.

``No business anymore - it`s dead here,`` said Pervaiz Saleem, who runs a South Asian grocery store on the Little Pakistan strip. ``My customers, so many of them did get interrogated, were deported or just fled. People disappeared.``

The post-9/11 exodus abated for a while, only to resume with a vengeance in the late fall of 2002, when the federal government began requiring noncitizen males from two dozen predominantly Muslim nations plus North Korea to check in with the immigration service - a process often described by critics as a catch-22, because for those lacking up-to-date visas, compliance with the ``Special Registration`` call-up proved to be at least as problematic as noncompliance.

Over the next year or so, about 13,000 Muslims found illegally living in towns and cities across the United States, their visas expired, were placed in deportation proceedings when they answered the special registration directive. Among them, the largest single nationality affected by the initiative was Pakistani. Authorities said they were looking, in part, for any ties between Islamic terrorists in Pakistan and the estimated 500,000 Pakistani immigrants residing in this country. About 120,000 Pakistanis live in New York City.

In the summer of 2003, a survey by the Council of Peoples Organization, a resettlement group on Coney Island Avenue, estimated that since 9/11, 18,000 Pakistanis left the Ditmas Park section of Brooklyn, which includes Little Pakistan, and the vicinity. The Pakistani embassy in Washington put the figure at 15,000.



More insular neighborhood

Now, Little Pakistan`s mosque draws fewer and fewer worshipers. The public celebration of Muhammad`s birthday each April is significantly smaller than before 9/11. Small-business owners struggle to make the rent, some going under, some reinventing themselves with new and less expensive offerings.

Khubaib Jilani, 57, said the Republican National Convention in Manhattan last summer brought new attention from law enforcement, further discouraging South Asian-born New Yorkers from traveling to the neighborhood to shop for ethnic foods, music and jewelry.

``It`s like we got a bad name after 9/11, and we`re stuck with it,`` said Jilani, who has stopped selling electronic merchandise in favor of 99-cent fare in an effort to stay afloat.

The bloody attacks against the London transport system have only refueled worries that South Asians and Arabs across New York and the United States will incur new suspicion and backlash.

``Everyone`s scared,`` Mohammad Razvi, president of the Council of Peoples Organization, said shortly after the July 7 London explosions. ``Women and girls in particular, given their mode of dress - their head scarves, for example - tell me that they feel they would be the first to be singled out for a hate crime or a deportation-type arrest. Some are actually afraid to go outside right now.``

Re: # 358 Raw_Dust - Prophet Romair

The new prophet (``nujawano jang jaree rakho!!``) works in mysterious ways just like the rest of them. He is building business working with Indians, lives in a secular kafir white country where he hopes to raise his own kids, socializes with Indian punjabis, enjoys Bollywood movies with his family and still wants young Pakistani kids to die for what he and his generation could never achieve (i.e., Kashmir, Islamic victory etc. etc.).

Very nice strategy indeed.

Godot, I am sorry. I did not know about the how one could press reply to another`s message and then the reply would be placed directly below. That is why I have missed out on many of your comments. I have to run now. We shall discuss this later.

You should have put your definition in the article dude, would have made life alot easier. Till tommorw, cheers :)

Re: # 362

Haroon,

Dude, you`ve no substance and are full of hot air. You made me waste my time with you. You ran when push came to shove. If this is how you debate, dude, then there`s rude awakening waiting for you. Until then keep fantasizing. Sweet dreams, janu!

Rock-a-bye baby on the tree top
When the wind blows the cradle will rock
When the bow breaks the cradle will fall
And down will come baby cradle and all

Friend, I feel very bad for whatever injustices have been committed in the name of national security and territorial integrity and I can assure you that there is a change taking place in Pakistan, a march towards true reconcialiation amongst different establishments of our society.

Kashmir will sooner or later have to be revisited. There can be no betrayal of the Kashmiri Ideal. Manto and Godot would beg to differ I am sure, but their unalienable right for plebliscite must be exercised. Or, we could always think outside the box, but the current Indian establishment fails to do so.

Re: # 360

Haroon,

I`m beginning to doubt your mental fitness...

What is it in my post about ``Secular Islam`` that you do not understand?

Mantolives and Godot will come back again, yelling from the top of their ivory towers, refusing to come down from their horses and actually taking place in a debate by presenting a definition of Secular Islam...

Come on Mr. Hamdani and Godot, finish what you started. :)

Re: # 354

Haroon,

You say, “Godot, you wrote something so contreversial regarding Islam and failed to present a definition of Secular Islam. This is not right. I have asked for a definition at least 5 times from you and Mantolives but there is no definition.”

I wrote this in my post #347 to you. Let me re-post it for you. Read it and let me know what’s in it that you do not understand:

“Secular Islam” is the Islam that is gentle, tolerant, and above all, personal. It’s fine to have Islam running in your veins and is the light in your heart. It’s that Islam has no business in the affairs of the State, as the State is blind as to who is a Muslim, Christian, Zoroastrian, Hindu or a Qadiani. For the State, there is no difference among them and they all are Pakistanis and are equal before the State. “Secular Islam” is keeping your religious practices to yourself and not shoving it down everybody’s throat. “Secular Islam” means not shutting down restaurants in daytime during Ramzan. If a rozdar wants to open his iftar with a glass of whiskey, then let him; that’s “Secular Islam.”

Also, you asked for my response in your post #322 re Kashmir, and I did respond in post #347. Now, it appears that you are the one evading a debate! Go ahead, I’m listening...

i dont know just felt like to highlight this rare moment of contact with the extra-intelligence, the martial monolith (ayub, yahya, zia and all the other masks of the Ineffable, residing in the hills of Kakul and Risalpur) channelling through prophet Romair

Bismillah and Nahmuduho wa nusalli Alaa Amma Baad

``So as I said: jang jaree rakho!!. But make sure you are pointing your arguments (and/or guns) at a common enemy of Pakistan (whomever that maybe). And not at fellow Pakistanis (even if you disagree with them).............``

Sadaq Allah Ul Azeem

#355 HaroonElahi
While doing ``jang jaree rakho``, run from ``maidan if jang gets too hot for you or if you run out of arguments`` and start advising ``other to do jang for you`` ...

got it.

#355 HaroonElahi
While doing ``jang jaree rakho``, run from ``maidan if jang gets too hot for you or if you run out of arguments`` and start advising ``other to do jang for you`` ...

got it.

haroonelahi #355: ``Romair, very well said! My last comment was written before I got to read your comment. I am going to be following your advise completely. It`s just funny that 30-year-olds have the capacity to behave like 2-year-olds and insult people for no reason.``

That`s good to hear...........

The greatest potential a person has, is probably in their 20s. At least in my opinion. One is old enough to be on one`s own feet, while simultaneoulsy young (and perhaps constructively naive) enough to be willing to take great risks, without worrying about the consequences. In addition, one is not too set in one`s ways, at that age.............The biggest risks I ever took in my life, were in my 20s...........I doubt I will ever have the courage or confidence to take such risks again. So you might be overestimating the capabilities of people in their 30s, or older.......They (we) are a boring lot, with nothing much to offer in terms of genuine passion...........It is no coincidence that biggest revolutions in the world are initiated by college students in their 20s.........

There is nothing wrong with being opinionated. I actually have a lot of respect for opinionated people. Specifically, opinionated people who are younger than me. Including those who completely disagree with me. I find people with weak opinions to be quite boring. They can never be leaders. They will always be followers.........

However, there is one thing one needs to be cautious of in one`s 20s (or younger years). While one should be confident enough to be opinionated, one should be mature enough to realize that one is not experienced enough to have all the answers. And thus should be willing to change one`s views, if better ideas and arguments are presented. My social views, now, are competely different from what they were in my 20s..........And they may be completely different 10 years from now.........

Opinionated people, who are willing to listen to reasoning and are willing to change, become great leaders. Opinionated people, including well-intentioned ones, who are stubborn and think they have all the answers, usually become fascists without realizing it(despite their good intentions)...........

So as I said: jang jaree rakho!!. But make sure you are pointing your arguments (and/or guns) at a common enemy of Pakistan (whomever that maybe). And not at fellow Pakistanis (even if you disagree with them).............

Romair, very well said! My last comment was written before I got to read your comment. I am going to be following your advise completely. It`s just funny that 30-year-olds have the capacity to behave like 2-year-olds and insult people for no reason. Truly reflective of their mannerisms.

Mantolives, you are not much of a debater nor does your attention-span exceed more than 120 seconds. I did not question you on your faith, I questioned you on what is the definition of a Muslim and what is this concept of Secular Islam you seem to be cherishing so much?
Allah kay banday, at least give the interactors definitions of what you are talking about so that we can understand your point of view as opposed to make our own assumptions regarding the concept of Secular Islam. I know that assumptions are the bane of your existence Mantolives and that you constantly leave such `traps` so people assume things which you forgot to clarify and hence you go bezerk.

Godot, you wrote something so contreversial regarding Islam and failed to present a definition of Secular Islam. This is not right. I have asked for a definition at least 5 times from you and Mantolives but there is no definition.

Furthermore, lawyers are suppose to oil the wheels of social stability in a country. Seems like Mantolive is the anti-thesis of this concept, as his hate-speech agaisnt Hellbound and Veeresh clearly demonstrates.

Also, if I call someone a traitor, that does not neccassirly mean that that person is indeed a traitor. It`s just an opinion. I am entitled to my opinion, am I not? Free-speech is a two-way-street Yasser & Co. Every one is entitled to it, as long as hate-speech is not taking place.

Kindly provide a definition of Secular Islam, is your goal to create an alternative form of Islam to replace the existing sects of Pakistan? Or is it your goal to eradicate the current Islam pracitised in Islam and give birth to one you want? Come on Godot and Yasser, why don`t you let us know?

When us young Pakistani Muslims sit together and discuss our religion, we are absolutely apalled by the divisions in our religion. The sectionalism, the factionalism, which have disunited us for far too long. When you ask for creating another faction within the Islamic religion, it is asking for more sectionalism and disunity, which is NOT needed.

#352
Here comes Sargent Major Romair
Attenut! nujawano jang jaree rakho!!


Janaab Romair

Aap hi kus khulasa kijiye why you never focus on part of Kashmir gifted to China and why that transaction was totally in sync with democratic aspirations of Kashmiri awaam.

Haroonelahi/Don # various: “I have only decided to retract them because it If I do not then I`ll be like a sectionalist quack aswell, which I aspire not to be!”

This is the correct attitude to have, in my opinion.

The worse thing any Pakistani can do to Pakistan is to divide its internal opinions against each other. Even if what one is arguing is correct, it is still not worth it to divide the people, over it. Anyone who does that is giving more importance to themselves and their opinion (even if it is correct) than to their country………

A true sign of a leader is not someone who can force his/her own opinion onto others. A true sign of a leader is someone who can get people of differing and opposing opinions, to join on one platform, despite their disagreements, and follow him/her. Anyone can get people of similar opinions to follow him in an effort to impose it on others. Hardly anyone can get people of opposing opinions to follow him. The former is opportunism at best, and divisiveness at worst. The later is leadership.

Jinnah was a great Paksitani, not because of the speeches he made. Nor his philosophies on religion and secularism and what not. He was a great man, because he was able to get common Pakistanis of opposing colors – rich, poor, religious, secular, Sindhi, Baluchi, Pathan, Punjabi, Bengali, Kashmiris etc. – to follow him. Not just people who were like him, but people who were completely different from him, also. 95% of the people listening to his English speeches could not even understand English!! I doubt they could understand the social and political concepts he was propagating. But they trusted him, as a person………..

You will always be the bigger person if you give in on a personal stand, if the result unites a community/country that you belong to. And people will, if not in the short term, definitely in the long term, will recognize you for it.

As for Pakistan, rest assured it is in safe hands. The average Pakistani – the farmer, the taxi driver, the sepoy the sweeperess etc – has his heart and mind in the right place. Unlike all of us on Chowk, Pakistan is all that he/she has. It is that large group, and not expats nor the wealthier group in Pakistan that is going to decide Pakistan’s destiny. And I don’t see them giving in on issues like Kashmiri self-determination, national pride, Islam, Christianity etc. anytime soon. So you need not worry about that. You (and I), being the more affluent part of the society, should just worry about raising the economic standards of this large group, by creating good jobs for them. Believe me that group will deliver, if given the chance. As long as there are people like Mukhtar Mai who can take on the elite, while simultaneously stating that she will never tolerate anyone belittling her country from outside Pakistan, Pakistan will be alright……….

Having said that, I agree with some of the things you two are saying and I disagree with some. I agree with your youthful passion and patriotism. Though I disagree with the way you are presenting it. Here is my $.02: Never do or say anything that would put anyone in your own country in a vulnerable or defensive position – be it related to religion, ethnicity, etc. At the same time, till the day you die, never ever let anyone, regardless of their motivations, come up to you and say that you should be ashamed to be a Pakistani………

So while I am quite concerned about both of you doubting people’s patriotism, religious motivations etc., when they tell you that you should be ashamed of being a Pakistani. I would be more concerned if both of you had remained quite and accepted the comment, and not answered back…………The former indicates a nation with bad manners. The later would have indicated a nation that has been defeated psychologically…………

Lihaza, nujawano jang jaree rakho!! But try to channel your energies and arguments into a stand that always unites everyone in Pakistan (including groups that are different from you in religion, ethnicity, social ideas etc.). Not into one that may divide them…………

Haroon #330
Dear Mr HaroonEllahi
You didn`t answer my second and third question....

2. Is Pakistan right in not giving democratic rights to people of Gilgit and Balitstan?
3. Do Pakistan people have rights to choose and remove their own governments through election?

With respect to your first answer ...
1. Pakistan was not justified in ceding a part of Kashmir to China. Pakistan has been argueing in favor of having a plebliscite and has always supported the Kashmiri People`s unalienable right to practise their unalienable right of plebliscite. Ceding the land to China indirectly contradicted this policy, but this is what we are saying in hindsight. At that moment in history, it was wise for Pakistan to increase China`s signifigance in the great power balance equation between Pakistan and India.
It was direct contradiction of whatever policy Pakistan claims to have. If you firmly believe that future of Kashmir can not be decided with a vote from Kashmiris, how can you give a part of their land without getting their consent? And it is surprising that you will permit Pakistan to contradict Kashmiris rights ``to balance power``..
Why Gilgit is still not merged with part of Kashmir occupied by Pakistan? Why a general of Pakistani army has to be president of Pakistani occupied Kashmir? And why people of Gilgit can not vote for their chief/prime minister? Are 58 years not enough for deciding their future?

Dear sir, Pakistan will have a great moral claim to validity of its Kashmir policy if they
1. Let part of Kashmir occupied by it (including Gilgit and Nothern areas) to go free and decide its own future. They can ensure saftey of that region by putting it under control of IOS or UN or whaever...
2. Hold few independent elections within Pakistan. Till now not even a single federal government has been permitted to complete its term in Pakistan. Let Pakistan set an example of viable democracy and than talk about rest of the world.

Regards

Re: # 348

I have read Shankar`s comments and there is nothing in them that I find against the real idea of Pakistan and/or real Islam which is progressive and inspirational.

Pakistanis like you suffer from a sad disease which forces you to assume that your own opponents are actually the country`s opponents and the religion`s opponents. Your constant questions about my faith and my own personal beliefs belies a naive stupidity to put it mildly.

Such blatant enlisting of Pakistani ideology for your own personal scores, the Pakistani version of Mcarthyism, is stupidity not smart politics. Example: Nawaz Sharif, elected Prime Minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, with a 2/3rds Majority in the parliament. He too suffered from the same delusions... had one of the greatest patriots of this nation state Mr Sethi, the only chap who has come to Pakistan`s defence internationally when our integrity has been questioned, thrown into jail for allegedly speaking against the Pakistani ideology.

Today the great defender of faith and Pakistani ideology the great Sharif lives as the guest of the sharif of the harmein sharifain, meanwhile Sethi, who he jailed as being unpatriotic and anti-Islamic, lives freely in the republic as an influential figure.

-YLH

haroon Ellahi Zindabad. Pakistan Zindabad. (T)

It`s funny that Mantolives condemned Don for his rebuttle to Shankar but failed to ask Shankar to stop his anti-Islam and anti-Muslim remarks, I guess it`s part of the picture, since Mantolives is agaisnt Islam`s interest in Pakistan.

I am curious Mantolives, do you plan to completely eradicate Islamic law from Pakistan?

Re: # 322

Haroon,

I re-read your post #172 and lets say that I agree with you in principle in a number of points you mentioned, so there is no point in talking about them. My difference, however, is that you imply that Pakistan’s ethnic problem does not exist and will be a problem with European-style democracy. I believe ethnicity is a real problem for Pakistan right now. For that, please read my article Pakistan Under Its Ethnic Shadows.

While I truly sympathize with Kashmiri Muslims, I believe, due to Pakistan’s ill-conceived policy, we have lost that game to India. At present Pakistan’s hand is too weak and India’s too strong for Pakistan to accept anything other than LoC. Yes, a divided Kashmir is the only solution. Plebiscite is out of the question for India, as Bill Clinton very clearly stated in his trip to Pakistan, “this is not 1948.” What makes you think India would agree to anything other than LoC, especially when the rest of the nations that matter are on its side? With plebiscite out of the question, I don’t see anywhere in your post under whose jurisdiction--Pakistan or India--ALL of Kashmir you suggest should fall. And, as you must know, an independent Kashmir is acceptable neither to Pakistan nor to India.

“Secular Islam” is the Islam that is gentle, tolerant, and above all, personal. It’s fine to have Islam running in your veins and is the light in your heart. It’s that Islam has no business in the affairs of the State, as the State is blind as to who is a Muslim, Christian, Zoroastrian, Hindu or a Qadiani. For the State, there is no difference among them and they all are Pakistanis and are equal before the State. “Secular Islam” is keeping your religious practices to yourself and not shoving it down everybody’s throat. “Secular Islam” means not shutting down restaurants in daytime during Ramzan. If a rozdar wants to open his iftar with a glass of whiskey, then let him; that’s “Secular Islam.”

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Can you hear the screams of the young Kashmiri brides as they are gang raped by entire Indian army units as you read this post Haroon ? Every minute a Kashmiri muslimah gets raped by bloody Indian kufrs. Over 100,000 young ravishing sexy nubile Kashmiri muslimah have been raped by bloody stinky idol worshipping kufrs over the last 10 years. And guess what - people of India like it that way. We want to punish the Kashmiri muslims for raising their voice against us. We are really pissed off and we will destroy Kashmiri muslims and enjoy ourselves while doing so.

Actually, majority is not correct always and sometimes the will of the majority should be bypassed. For instance, the rise of Hitler in Germany, he was intially a populary-elected leader ,and one can see what his Nazi philosophy did to Europe and the rest of the world.

Haroon....India is a democracy. Majority rules. Those with the most numbers , set the rules. And majority , as I said , would love to kill every single Kashmiri male and take every Kashmiri female as a sex slave.....we fuck fuck fuck Kashmir , and have no shame at all..we love fucking Kashmiris :))

I have only decided to retract them because it If I do not then I`ll be like a sectionalist quack aswell, which I aspire not to be!

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Haroon...try giving your suggestions about `honoring the aspirations and self-determination of the Kashmiri people` to an audience in mainland India....you will have your tiny little dick hacked off and stuffed into your throat.

I have decided to retract my traitor comments.

#329 by Romair on August 2, 2005 10:50am PT


These views are obviously not shared by those in Pakistan (including Mukhtar Mai, who has made it clear that she will not tolerate anyone in the USA media who tells her to be ashamed of being a Pakistani, or says anything against Pakistan).


Ah...those in Pakistan....which would conveniently exclude Dr Shazia who has an interview in the NYT in which she says the paki government forced her out of this country because she was ``an embarrassment``


In fact, the average Pakistani`s family is more likely to be in the Middle East than in the USA.


But the ruling elite, the families of the generals etc, have homes in the west...which is why they just rounded up a bunch of people in response to the London bombings..fact remains: the people who run Pakiland do care very much about how Pakiland`s image affects their visa....


While the Pakistanis in Pakistan
Nor can he ignore the internal Pakistani public view. They are his constituency.


What the Pakistanis in Pakistan think hardly matters...That`s the beauty of having a dictator do your dirty work...I doubt the Pakistanis in Pakistan would approve of the Paki armed forced bombing and killing a bunch of tribals(especially when the PAF was a no-show in Kargil..you know...root cause and all that)...

romair # 329 - I swear I could have said the same thing in less than 5 lines :)

Haroon , are you stupid ? India would rather nuke the whole of Pakistan 10 times over than give away even a single inch of its Kashmir property.

#330 by haroonellahi on August 2, 2005 10:55am PT


Ceding the land to China indirectly contradicted this policy, but this is what we are saying in hindsight. At that moment in history, it was wise for Pakistan to increase China`s signifigance in the great power balance equation between Pakistan and India.


Translation: When it`s expedient and when it suits our purpose, morality be damned...


There are certainly alot of misgivings and grudges amongst the strata of our Pakistani society and for this I suggest the creation of the National Reconcialiation Council.


So if India has a National Reconcialiation Council, that should be fine with everyone, right?


And I see friend didn`t even bring up the annexation of Balochistan..balochistan was forcibly annexed..but you knew that, right?

Re: # 326 montag
//....why India has been violating human right of Kashmiri for so long?...//

You tell us. You seem to know a lot :) Why do you think India keeps kicking kashmiri but!t?

#328 by Montag on August 2, 2005 10:46am PT


Hindia is paying big price for this. Look at slums in Mumbai and poverty rate.


Umm..Pakiland has a higher poverty rate and lower HDI than India..

in any case, they`re willing to pay the price...

1. Was Pakistan right in gifting Part of Kashmir to China?
2. Is Pakistan right in not giving democratic rights to people of Gilgit and Balitstan?
3. Do Pakistan people have rights to choose and remove their own governments through election?

Dear Friend,

I was not evading your questions unintentionally. Mantolives was on rage-mode and subsequently I had to give him an ego-deflation.

1. Pakistan was not justified in ceding a part of Kashmir to China. Pakistan has been argueing in favor of having a plebliscite and has always supported the Kashmiri People`s unalienable right to practise their unalienable right of plebliscite. Ceding the land to China indirectly contradicted this policy, but this is what we are saying in hindsight. At that moment in history, it was wise for Pakistan to increase China`s signifigance in the great power balance equation between Pakistan and India.

2. There are certainly alot of misgivings and grudges amongst the strata of our Pakistani society and for this I suggest the creation of the National Reconcialiation Council... The basic idea is that All misgivings amongst different polictians vs. each other and collectively towards the military and vice-versa should be forgiven and that a true transition is made towards making true sense of nationhood.

3. Benazir Bhutto`s advent into politics and the subsequent musical chairs between her and Nawaz Shareef show that the people did exercise their right to vote. I am urgently waiting forward for 2007 to see whether the promised elections shall take place or not. I am optimistic that they shall, Inshallah!

It is interesting to see Pakistanis brand other Pakistanis as traitors. People who divide, rather than unite, are the most dangerous people for a country...........It doesn`t matter how correct the point of view they are pushing, may happen to be..........

I think everyone of Pakistani origin is discussing issues based on how it affects them, personally. Most of those who have migrated to America seem very apprehensive about the treatment they may get there. Hence they want Pakistan to take certain actions that will make life easier for them. Their views will tend to align more with the USA`s views. In fact, they have gone one step furthur and think that Pakistanis should be ashamed of calling themselves, a Pakistani.........

These views are obviously not shared by those in Pakistan (including Mukhtar Mai, who has made it clear that she will not tolerate anyone in the USA media who tells her to be ashamed of being a Pakistani, or says anything against Pakistan). On the whole, those who are in Pakistan are, generally, not too concerned about how Pakistan`s actions will affect those Pakistanis who voluntarily migrated out of Pakistan. In fact, the average Pakistani`s family is more likely to be in the Middle East than in the USA. They are, thus, looking at things purely from the point of view of individuals who live in Pakistan, i.e. they don`t live in London or New York, and are least bothered by how Pakistani migrants there are viewed.

This can be seen in the dilemma that Musharraf is currently under. The Americans (specifically the American media) want him to, ``do more.`` As do the more well-established Paksitani-Americans. While the Pakistanis in Pakistan seem to think that he has already done, ``too much,`` and is going overboard to please the USA. The Indians also want him to, ``do more`` on Kashmir. While the Pakistanis in Pakistan seem to think that he has done just the right amount in this area, or has already done too much, without getting anything in return from India.........

Musharraf can set aside the Indian view, since India is not strong enough to dictate to Pakistan. Much like India can set aside Pakistanis` views, since Pakistan cannot dictate to India. He can also set aside the view of the Pakistani-Americans etc. Since they have voluntarily opted out of Pakistan, and are no longer his constituency. However, he certainly cannot set aside the American govt. view. Since USA can dictate to Pakistan, to some extent. Nor can he ignore the internal Pakistani public view. They are his constituency. He is dependent on both these views to survive, in the position he is in.

What should he do when both views are completely opposing on these issues? One telling him to lock up all maulvis. The other saying he is already locking up too many Pakistani citizens, on instructins from abroad..........Damned if you do, damned if you don`t..........

I have experienced that if someone is being equally criticized from two opposing entities, with opposing views, perhaps they are handling the issues just about as well as they can be handled. If Al-Jazeera is criticized by the Arabs and the Americans on an issue, it is probably being objective. If I present a point, and both Indians and Pakistanis criticize me, then I am probably being objective.........

If Musharraf and his govt. is getting flak from opposing sides - Pakistani Urdu press and US English press, Indian govt. and Pakistani nationalists, American political parties and Pakistani political parties, maulvis and liberals, expats and people who will never go abroad etc. - maybe he is tip-toeing through this minefield quite well...................

If every Pakistani, from all opposing directions is calling you a traitor and Pakistanis and foreigners are asking you to, ``do more,`` in opposing directions, and Indians think you are duplicous on Kashmir and so do Pakistanis, if they maulvis think you are too liberal and the liberals think you are too much of a maulvi, you are probabaly on the right track...........

Re: # 327

Hindia is paying big price for this. Look at slums in Mumbai and poverty rate.

#326 by Montag on August 2, 2005 10:37am PT


Mr. friend please say why India has been violating human right of Kashmiri for so long?


1. Because they can..
2. Because there isn`t anything you can do about it...

Mr. friend please say why India has been violating human right of Kashmiri for so long? Why 700,000 army has to be there?

#323, Friend,
1. No
2. No
3. No
You are welcome.
Salim

Mr. Mantolievs and Mr. Haroon are brightest young mind in all of South Asia. Please do not do fight. Future of Pakistan is in your very capable hands. Pakistan Zindabaad. (T)

Haroon#322
You have also been evading questions. Please answer yes or no
1. Was Pakistan right in gifting Part of Kashmir to China?
2. Is Pakistan right in not giving democratic rights to people of Gilgit and Balitstan?
3. Do Pakistan people have rights to choose and remove their own governments through election?

Don`t be like Manto or Romair. Give a yes or no answer. No if-then-else please.

Godot, you are once again evading the question. Do you or do you not support the Kashmiri people`s unalienable right to practise self-determination? Yes or no, don`t be like a Mantolives...

Also, atleast I have some sort of vision and I know what I want and I can actually propose steps to implement it. Kashmir is a problem and it needs to be solved, we can not allow the issue to linger on forever, it needs to be solved, that is the urgency of the hour.

I actually laid out a framework for a resolution, did you come down from the tower of ivory you,mantolives and ana sit on and actually bother to read it and save the path of this discussion from oblivion? No.

Come on, let`s discuss Kashmir.
Please read #172 and let`s debate it!

Also, I want a definition of `Secular Islam`, Please.

Godot #320 writes to haroon ``If the future leaders of Pakistan are anywhere near the way you think, Pakistan has no future.``

Godot, haroon is in his formative years, where the ideas are made and changed and refined over time. In addition, he has merely TALKED the talk. The walk is yet to come.

But it is actually because of the `traitorship` of PRESENT leaders that Pakistan has no future. They have done more than talk the talk. They have walked their talk. In the process they have bombarded Pakistani people with F-16s purchased from the treasurey of Pakistani people.

So when you write sentences like this in your article ``Does Pakistan Army have the guts to stand up to the stone-age minded mullahs``, you are being a traitor of the PRESENT generation that is running the country, or making its image abroad. You are a disservice to the FUTURE generation of Haroon when you suggest that the future of Pakistan lies in the hands of Pakistani army.

Aap apnay giraybaan main jhaankiaye. What the younger generation will become in future, lets leave it to them. Surely they cannot f*ck Pakistan any worse than we have.

My above comments should not be seen as condoning anyone in the recent exchange of personal insults.

Haroon,

For those who truly love Pakistan you are the real traitor whose ilk has screwed Pakistan beyond imagination and have betrayed its great founding father and all his ideals. If the future leaders of Pakistan are anywhere near the way you think, Pakistan has no future. It is a reflection of the depth of your ignorance that anyone who dares to disagree with you, you want him “to leave.” I wish they all take your advice and leave...leave you to rot in your own pathetic little jannat called “The Islamic Republic of Pakistan.”

You are blind to the realities around you and live in some lala land. If you truly love Pakistan then I dare you to wear a T-shirt that says “I LOVE PAKISTAN” and roam around in London’s tubes. Read the following from Financial Times of London and see what the world thinks of YOUR Pakistan and YOUR type of Muslim. It’s your kind that makes an intelligent Pakistani and a Muslim hang his head in shame. You are a perfect example of the axiom “Youth is wasted on the young.”

Sensible suspicion
By Jonathan Guthrie

Imagine you are a young British Muslim man returning from a stay with relatives in Pakistan. Through coincidence and indifference, you have failed to follow the international news. You are wearing a prayer cap, a leaving present from a friend, and your favourite top, emblazoned with a ``New York`` logo. The luggage tags announcing your arrival from Karachi are dangling from your rucksack. So are the wires of an electrical appliance you bought in Duty Free.

The lengthy baggage search at Heathrow was understandable, given the problem of narcotics smuggling. But why is the tube carriage in which you are travelling into London so unaccountably empty, when the platforms are crowded? And why are policemen peering in at you from adjoining carriages?

It is unpleasant to be suspected of terrorism because of your religion or race. But sadly, the suspicions young Muslims can currently arouse in some public places are entirely rational. The perpetrators of the July 7 bombings, and of the abortive July 21 attacks, were not Methodists, Buddhists or Rastafarians. They were South Asian and African Muslims. The controversial policy of the British Transport Police of concentrating its stop-and-search activity on people who might belong to those groups does make sense.

Young Muslim men are as much in danger from terrorist bombs as white Christian grannies. The key is for the police to handle their job sensitively, if that is not too much to hope for. Younger officers would benefit from a history lesson in how some predecessors harassed black youths during the 1970s, using the infamous ``sus`` law. This allowed them to stop anyone they suspected of criminal intentions, often on the flimsiest grounds.

Muslims have a more legitimate cause for anxiety over jobs discrimination than over stop-and-search. Research by the BBC last summer suggested your chances of winning a job interview were halved if your application bore a Muslim name. Managers tolerant of boozing and soft drug taking among employees are often uncomfortable with observant Muslims who wear headscarves or pray regularly. The police itself needs more Muslim recruits. It is harder to accuse a police officer who stops you in the street of being an Islamophobe if he, like you, is a Muslim.

Re: # 318

Dear Don

Let me give you a legal illustration:

A threatens B that A will approach B with the intention of harming B. B responds by saying that B will put a bullet in A`s head in case A ever tries to approach B with the intention of physical violence. B is perfectly within his rights to resort to self defence. Putting a bullet in A`s head if such an incident was to take place is self defence.

As for the Indian guy veeresh- the threat to egg his antique car (not murder him) was a joke, I was not the only one in on the joke. It was promptly clarified and Veeresh and I will lunching at some date in the future, despite our differences.

So on both counts your friend Haroon Elahi put a stinky foot in his mouth.

Sincerely

YLH

Re #308
// vis a vis ``godless ideals of fascist secularism.`` You come here and call anyone who doesn`t support your point of view on Kashmir a traitor and I am the fascist. Beautiful.
Your friend threatens to break everyone`s bones and warns of ``murder`` and I am the fascist. //

excuse me...werent u the one who threatened to beat up that indian guy Veeresh?...and what...putting a bullet in Hellbound`s head ISNT murder??? so yeah ylh u are the facitst...agreed what i said was wrong..but still..uve threatened people too...so U cant hold that against me...

#291 by dost-mittar

hehehehe…wants premwalla not filtered…heheheh…now that salim has switched sides…..before that……hehehehehe

“mocking serious interactors with his hehehehes.”

Heheheh…serious interactors like the ones who talked about my mother…..hehehehe…like the dr. of pisscology…hehehehe…...see his interacts…serious posters….hehehehe…

Anybody shows hindu a mirror….should be banned….hehehehe….. Preaching hindu brand of democracy….heheheh…
heheheheh…not a banned expression……hehehehe…

yoo hoo...manto...i know you`re lurking...

So there WERE jihad collection boxes in Lahore.. they were removed a week ago is because of the focus on Pakistan after the London bombing...

Jihad with that?

The holy war donation tins may have gone from the fast food joints of Lahore but the president of Pakistan apparently still needs the militants he is supposed to be rooting out, writes Declan Walsh

Monday August 1, 2005

A week ago a donations box for jihad sat on the counter of the Subway sandwich restaurant in Gulberg, a bustling middle-class suburb of Lahore. By Friday it was gone.

``Sorry, management ordered us to remove it,`` said the cashier behind the till.

The transparent box - one of hundreds in businesses across the city - solicited contributions to Jamaat-ud Dawa, an Islamic charity widely seen as a front for a jihadi militia fighting Indian forces in the disputed territory of Kashmir.

The boxes were withdrawn as part of a wide-ranging crackdown on domestic militants after allegations that the perpetrators of the recent bomb attacks in London had contacts with at least two Pakistani groups.

In the past week, the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, has ordered a freeze on such fundraising, the arrest of more than 600 people and the expulsion of foreign students from madrasa religious schools.

But President Musharraf has ordered several such sweeps since 2001, only for the militant groups to spring up again after lying low for a while. Sceptics are unsure whether there is serious intent behind the present crackdown. ``If you want to make a contribution, just wait a few months,`` the Subway cashier said. ``By then the boxes should be out again.``

Diplomats and analysts say Mr Musharraf is reluctant to dismantle the jihadi groups - which have waged a violent campaign in Kashmir since the late 1990s - because they provide useful leverage in negotiations with Pakistan`s old foe, India.

There was substantial progress towards peace between the two countries earlier this year but the process has slowed over the past month.

The worry for the west is that the groups operating in Kashmir - fired up by Islamist ideology and anger over the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq - are lending their expertise in violence to al-Qaida.

Bomb attacks on westerners, two assassination attempts on Mr Musharraf and the murder of the American reporter Daniel Pearl have all been attributed to Pakistani militants with al-Qaida links.

The London bombers appear to have moved in the same militant circles. Last week, the New York Times reported that the Circle Line bomber, Shehzad Tanweer, was trained at a camp north of Islamabad run by the Kashmir militant outfit Jaish-i-Mohammad.

There are also unconfirmed reports that Tanweer visited a madrasa run by Jamaat-ud Dawa. Since splitting from the militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba in December 2001, Jamaat has claimed to prosecute jihad through good works, not guns.

Jamaat tends to the sick of Pakistan using a fleet of 150 ambulances, 600 medical dispensaries and a team of doctors, said the Pakistani information secretary, Mohammad Yahya Mujahid, in Lahore.

Wearing a long, scraggly beard of the type usually associated with deeply conservative Muslims, Mr Mujahid said that the organisation runs 137 schools and 40 madrasas. It also sends a team of clerics to mosques around the country to ``preach and discuss political issues facing Islam``.

And, most importantly, according to Mr Mujahid, Jamaat has severed all ties with the Lashkar-i-Taiba gunmen in Kashmir. ``That chapter is completely closed,`` he said.

But few believe him, not least the Pakistani police. About 115 Jamaat members were arrested last week under anti-terrorist laws, although more 75 of them have since been released.

``Our people are always arrested but the courts let them go,`` Mr Mujahid said confidently. ``We are law abiding citizens.``

Groups such as Jamaat-ud Dawa present a sharp dilemma for Mr Musharraf. Although their madrasas do not train fighters, analysts say, they provide a pool of indoctrinated young men from which the militant wings can recruit.

The young jihadis are directed to a network of secret training camps in a heavily forested area in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir. Some of the same camps are allegedly linked to al-Qaida.

Two al-Qaida fighters captured recently told investigators in San Francisco they were trained at a camp run by Kashmir militants near Rawalpindi.

The claim remains unconfirmed, and the interior minister says such training camps do not exist.

Last week Mr Musharraf vowed to arrest every extremist ``bigwig`` in Pakistan. But if he cracks down too strongly on the Kashmir groups, he risks a backlash from powerful Islamic parties.

Nevertheless, diplomats say it is a step he must take to root out his country`s troubled association with al-Qaida.

``We need to see action across the board, a complete change of policy - not just selective actions,`` one diplomat said.

First of all....shankar u need to get a life!..even after i have said its over, u continue to say irrelevant and stupid things.....secondly in regard to what dullabhatti said...i admitted that what i did was wrong..i was under the impression that chowk was only for political discussions not a place where people of different views attack each other...in my first interact i commented on godot`s article and with what ylh said he was implying that i am just some snotty nosed rich kid who does not know what hes talking about...i was taken a back by this comment which came out of no where...and since me and ylh have had many arguments in the past and our views and have remained different...i saw it as an attack and so i retaliated...but i went too far and made it a a personal thing..and for that i apologize..but even after i decided to end this `verbal war` with him and his suck up shankar he continued to attack me...so all i can say is, that the problem here is not me...it is ylh...and i might be the teenager...but atleast im not acting like a 4 year old...from now on i would like to get into interesting discussions rather than arguements...

Thank you

First of all....shankar u need to get a life!..even after i have said its over, u continue to say irrelevant and stupid things.....secondly in regard to what dullabhatti said...i admitted that what i did was wrong..i was under the impression that chowk was only for political discussions not a place where people of different views attack each other...in my first interact i commented on godot`s article and with what ylh said he was implying that i am just some snotty nosed rich kid who does not know what hes talking about...i was taken a back by this comment which came out of no where...and since me and ylh have had many arguments in the past and our views and have remained different...i saw it as an attack and so i retaliated...but i went too far and made it a a personal thing..and for that i apologize..but even after i decided to end this `verbal war` with him and his suck up shankar he continued to attack me...so all i can say is, that the problem here is not me...it is ylh...and i might be the teenager...but atleast im not acting like a 4 year old...from now on i would like to get into interesting discussions rather than arguements...

Thank you

NHK wistfully writes ``I hope that some sensible Pakistani leader pays back each & every penny of that owed amount. I hate to live under obligations of others - it is demeaning & disgraceful.``

NHK sahib, hope is free. There is no cost associated with hope. We can all hope all day long to our heart`s content, without spending a single penny out of our pockets :)

I too hope that some sensible Pakistani leader pays back each & every penny of the amount we owe (something like $300 billion?? ) to IMF, Worldbank, and other countries. I too hate to live under obligation of others - it is demeaning & disgraceful.

Or is it that when it comes to being obligated, some countries are better than the others??

We`ll see where you and your posse of nihilists is in 10 years and where my entrouge of progressives is.

The End.

Dear Haroon,

You are right when you say that it is hard to beat an ignorant person at an argument...which is why you are the undefeated champion of chowk. I dont know what personal life I brought in... you keep advertising your school election campaign on several websites including this. I naturally assumed you win. I mean who would advertise their defeats. Especially since you so lovingly volunteered advice on how to launch a successful political career in Pakistan.

-YLH

Just for the record ladies and gentlemen, yasser came online yesterday on my msn messenger and was literally throwing a fit that I `betrayed` him... hahahahahhaahha.. And that he considered me as his `friend`...pfftt. Why? Because I told him that his remarks to Don were uncool.

Your comment regarding Ossama and Don was unjustified and it was extreme.

See, Yasser, the difference between people such as yourself and I is that I actually have the ability to listen to someone else`s arguement and change my views. You however are one of the most `rock-headed` people I have ever met.

And please inform whoever you have been talking about me to ( i have a very good idea, since you don`t have many friends) with that Pakistan is a country for Pakistani who wish to see this country take it`s rightful place in the world. Pakistan will march forward with time and it truly become into a democratic country, respecting the rights of it`s minority whilst peacefully mainting the will of the majority.

Islamic Republic of Pakistan Zindabad!

Dear Hamdani,

Please refrain from bringing my personal life into this. Apparently your pants were on fire when Don did this to you and I would request you refrain from doing such stuff. The election issue is closed chapter and I do not need to present an justifications to you or anyone else because of the inability of others to do justice.

I think I no longer have the intention with interacting with someone as immature and fanatical as yourself. As in, you go around threatening to shoot people with metallic projecticles and you threaten to vandalize other people`s properties (Veeresh`s car).

Pakistan can never prosper as long as parasites such as yourself threan our very social fabric in the name of reform, which is actually lip-service to good ideals and at it`s core wrotten. In the words of Sir Winston Churchill, ``It is impossible to beat an ignorant man in an argument.`` And an ignorant fanatic? You threw a tangent here because Don disagreed with you, YOU insulted him and you insulted me because the Kashmir issue is the life line of Pakistan.

If people such as yourself and others are so unproud of Pakistan ,then just leave.

Regards,

Haroon

Dear Mr Elahi,

As was expected (those who know you told me it was coming), you have levelled a number of baseless and unfounded accusations against me. I am in no mood to get into a pissing match with someone like you, because I am sure you have the uncanny ability of out-pissing anyone and everyone around you including yourself. You should treasure this. This is probably why you win every school election (or do you?).

I`ll just debunk your comments:

1) If trying to implement equality fraternity justice fairplay for all regardless of religion caste or creed are western paradigms then what you say is correct. I believe however that these are truly Islamic paradigms. Indeed my whole ``extreme personality worship`` should be seen in this context. I am proud to be a follower and admirer of Mr Mahomed Ali Jinnah.

2) The comment in jest to Veeresh was that we would egg his car and beat him up.

3) Hellbound had said that he would personally find out where I live and hunt me down. I responded by saying that if he does so I will put a bullet in his head. I will put a bullet in the head of anyone who tries to physically harm my family. Nothing fanatic about that.

4) The ``Evolving out`` as I proved on unplugged was with respect to the Two Nation Theory which I believe was a time specific theory and has lost any and all utility. It had nothing to do with Islam. You know it quite well but like a typical bigot you decided to misquote me.

5) vis a vis ``godless ideals of fascist secularism.`` You come here and call anyone who doesn`t support your point of view on Kashmir a traitor and I am the fascist. Beautiful.
Your friend threatens to break everyone`s bones and warns of ``murder`` and I am the fascist.

Anyway I will appreciate it if we don`t communicate at any level in the future. Clearly you have a long way to go and I don`t have the time nor the patience to educate you on any matter.

Yours Sincerely

YLH

NHK, beggars can`t be choosers... unfortunately :(

When one is under financial obligations, she/he is more susceptible to blackmail!

NHK, beggars can`t be choosers... unfortunately :(

When one is under financial obligations, she/he is more susceptible to blackmail!

Dear Yasser Latif Hamdani,

I think your generalizations regarding Don and I are made in poor taste and are absolutely flawed. I also feel that your comparision of Don and Ossama Bin Laden was below the belt and made as a last resort comment. Any ways, since you have taken the first step of insulting me and identifying me with that strata of our society which `wreaks havoc in Pakistan`, let me kindly inform you of what I`ve tried to tell you over ten times indirectly. Your ultimate goal is to essentially import Western paradigms for our country. This is quite clearly evident from your articles. Secondly, I am not a feudal nor am I religious fanatic. You sir, however are a virtual fanatic who is taking part in an extreme form of `personality worship`. You have threatened to kill people such as Veeresh if they ever visit Paksitan and you have several times threatened to `put a bullet in Hellbound`s head`. I think we should re-evalute the situation and observe who is the real fanatic amongst us, Mr. Hamdani, I do not fully understand the nature of your tiff with Don, but assuming his statements regarding your Eid comments are true, I do not really blame him.

Also, Don`s verbal assaults should not have taken place, but he is only 16 and is in his green salad days. You sir, are a graduate from university and are a working professional, who is married and has a child. Is this the state of our upcoming generation of lawyers, who approve of militancy and Klasinov culture? I am extremely disappointed by coming to this realization regarding you Mr. Hamdani.


And could you please kindly enumerate what havoc I have wreaked in Pakistan? It is people such as your self who support the sectionalism and factionalism of our society. God forbid, if people such as yourselves ever came to power, half of Pakistan would stage a revolution agaisnt your dictiorial nature and godless ideals of fascist secularism.

We will not and we can not part with Islam. You support us `evolving` out of Islam, but that`s not going to happen buddy. Islam is closer to us than our veins! And, the origin of this current dispute on Chowk is Godot`s suggestion that we should decrease our armaments and achieve total peace with our neighbors, and you, Ana, and him have all failed to air your support the Kashmiri people`s unalienable right for a plebliscite.

You are just a minority Yasser, your sectionalist policies will never suceed.

Regards,


P.S: I have never advocated militancy and never shall. I have supported Pakistan`s right to sustained economic and defensive war-waging capablities, but Yasser & Co. don`t seem to support that. I guess they want a rehersal of `71, which begs the question, whose side are you on Yasser?

Haroon

Shankar Saar ,

Never knew psycho-doctors could be so funny...;)

Also I was wondering if you are a kannadiga like me...

Regards ,

Harry Potter`s Red Haired Friend.