Is Secular India really Secular and Islamic Pakistan really Islamic?
Dawood Mamoon August 5, 2005
#116 Posted by Romair on August 10, 2005 2:23:40 pm
Hindvi #114: Interesting post.......
I have been trying hard to figure out the position of Indian Muslims, socially, economically, educationally etc. in India. i think I will have to go to India, to get a real feel. To me, that is the primary criteria for judging Partition (though many Indian Muslims may not agree), i.e. if the HDI indicators of Indian Muslims become higher, or significantly higher than Muslims in Pakistan, then the idea of Paritition becomes null and void. Muslims would have been better off living with Hindus, as a whole......
If the Indian Muslims are the new Dalits, as you are indicating, then what are the reasons for this. One seems to get two views, depending on whom one talks to: much like one gets two views for African Americans, i.e. one group says the govt. discriminates against them or does not provide them with enough facilities. The other group states that it is their own fault.........
From what I can see, the Indian Muslims have been affected the worse by the Indo-Pak conflicts. And perhaps by Partition, itself..........
P.S I had an American history professor who said that a good way to see which community is being discriminated against, in a society, is to which community produces the most professional boxers. In the USA, it is the Blacks and Hispanics. In Pakistan, it is the Mekranis. Who is it in India?
I have been trying hard to figure out the position of Indian Muslims, socially, economically, educationally etc. in India. i think I will have to go to India, to get a real feel. To me, that is the primary criteria for judging Partition (though many Indian Muslims may not agree), i.e. if the HDI indicators of Indian Muslims become higher, or significantly higher than Muslims in Pakistan, then the idea of Paritition becomes null and void. Muslims would have been better off living with Hindus, as a whole......
If the Indian Muslims are the new Dalits, as you are indicating, then what are the reasons for this. One seems to get two views, depending on whom one talks to: much like one gets two views for African Americans, i.e. one group says the govt. discriminates against them or does not provide them with enough facilities. The other group states that it is their own fault.........
From what I can see, the Indian Muslims have been affected the worse by the Indo-Pak conflicts. And perhaps by Partition, itself..........
P.S I had an American history professor who said that a good way to see which community is being discriminated against, in a society, is to which community produces the most professional boxers. In the USA, it is the Blacks and Hispanics. In Pakistan, it is the Mekranis. Who is it in India?
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#115 Posted by aslam644 on August 10, 2005 1:36:52 pm
Re: # 114
hindvi good post.
I also read that family planning among Kerala muslim women is higher than hindu women in UP.
hindvi good post.
I also read that family planning among Kerala muslim women is higher than hindu women in UP.
#114 Posted by hindvi on August 10, 2005 1:18:18 pm
Romair
to make any generalisations about a huge country like India is fraught with dangers, there are parts where hindu and muslims enjoy excellent relations (mostly in the south), places where their relations are ok and places where they are very bad.
But you are right in saying that many hindus have been convinced that muslims are pampered despite the fact that there social indicators are at the same level as dalits, infact Indira gandhi in the early 80s suppressed statistics which would reveal the full plight of muslioms in indian govt services. how they got this idea is not difficult to imagine, the conservative elements in any community are most vocal after partition the small muslim middle clas was lost, the remaining membrs of that class were silent with the stigma of partition. leadership naturally fell in the hands of the rabble rousers so the initial security given to a beseiged community by nehru turned slowly into tokenism towards conservative elemnts at election time due to the compulsions of democratic politics. but no real substantive things like education etc were pushed, but they were generally not pushed for anybody including dalits. where dalits beneffitted a bit along with huge benefits to other backward castes who are above dalits in the caste heirarchy was due to reservations in govt. jobs and educational institutions. but since these reservations were on caste basis and not on economic basis, musl;ims by and large got nothing except for a very tiny number who came under scheduled castes, but the massive number who had converted from OBCs got zilch.
this impression was fired by the bjp and rss with the launch of the ayodhya movement, they followed Hitler and goebells old advice ``if you repeat a lie many times it becomes the truth`` so they kept repeating about muslim multiple mariages, growth rate, pampering, temple breaking etc. despite the fact that muslim growth rate is no more than the obc/dalit growth rate for the same income category, despite the fact the incidence of multiple marriages among hindus is higher, ironically it is the highest among rich gujaritis where they disguise it as Maitri Karar and Sambandham relationships. This was spiced up with tales of the rapacious muslim male who is out to take hindu women and convert them to islam of hoary tales of rapine and temple breaking, forceable conversions being taught in schools and evening shakhas etc. and voala a Gujarat is created.
to make any generalisations about a huge country like India is fraught with dangers, there are parts where hindu and muslims enjoy excellent relations (mostly in the south), places where their relations are ok and places where they are very bad.
But you are right in saying that many hindus have been convinced that muslims are pampered despite the fact that there social indicators are at the same level as dalits, infact Indira gandhi in the early 80s suppressed statistics which would reveal the full plight of muslioms in indian govt services. how they got this idea is not difficult to imagine, the conservative elements in any community are most vocal after partition the small muslim middle clas was lost, the remaining membrs of that class were silent with the stigma of partition. leadership naturally fell in the hands of the rabble rousers so the initial security given to a beseiged community by nehru turned slowly into tokenism towards conservative elemnts at election time due to the compulsions of democratic politics. but no real substantive things like education etc were pushed, but they were generally not pushed for anybody including dalits. where dalits beneffitted a bit along with huge benefits to other backward castes who are above dalits in the caste heirarchy was due to reservations in govt. jobs and educational institutions. but since these reservations were on caste basis and not on economic basis, musl;ims by and large got nothing except for a very tiny number who came under scheduled castes, but the massive number who had converted from OBCs got zilch.
this impression was fired by the bjp and rss with the launch of the ayodhya movement, they followed Hitler and goebells old advice ``if you repeat a lie many times it becomes the truth`` so they kept repeating about muslim multiple mariages, growth rate, pampering, temple breaking etc. despite the fact that muslim growth rate is no more than the obc/dalit growth rate for the same income category, despite the fact the incidence of multiple marriages among hindus is higher, ironically it is the highest among rich gujaritis where they disguise it as Maitri Karar and Sambandham relationships. This was spiced up with tales of the rapacious muslim male who is out to take hindu women and convert them to islam of hoary tales of rapine and temple breaking, forceable conversions being taught in schools and evening shakhas etc. and voala a Gujarat is created.
#113 Posted by friend on August 9, 2005 7:52:37 pm
DM/Romair
Sialkot is very rarely mentioned in my family. I think loss of business was a big shock for grand-father and his brother. They didn`t survive too long. Our mother was too young to remember anything other than long train ride.
Sialkot is very rarely mentioned in my family. I think loss of business was a big shock for grand-father and his brother. They didn`t survive too long. Our mother was too young to remember anything other than long train ride.
#112 Posted by dost_mittar on August 9, 2005 12:51:15 pm
Romair/Friend:
Sialkot. I have some personal association with that city. My father was an army officer posted there and I spent a year with him there when I was in second grade (doosri jamaat) in a school in the Saddar bazaar adjoining the Cantt. It had one of the most famous hindu monuments close to it, namely, Pooran Bhagat da khoo. There were many folklores and songs about Pooran. I remember visiting it as a child. It had a well where the body parts of Pooran Bhagat were supposed to have been thrown. There used to be an annual mela there.
The industrial foundation of Sialkot was laid by its hindu-sikh entrepreneurs before the partition. It was always known as the sports goods center of the undivided Punjab, just as Lyallpur was famous as the wheat mandi of Punjab, and maybe even India. After the partition, these industrialists went to Jullundur and started a sports goods industry there.
Regarding gurudwaras and subcontinental politics, the situation is somewhat more complex. Soon after the partition, Pakistan allowed Sikh jathas to visit Nankana Saheb. Politics was involved as Pakistan refused to allow similar permission to hindus to visit the Katas Raj. A pre-partition politician from that area, Raja Ghaznafar Ali Khan, was a high commissioner of India during the fifties and many hindu refugees knew him personally. He tried to intervene with the Pakistan govt. to let hindus have access to the Katas Raj but did not succeed. When Zia came to power, he actively courted the sikhs and allowed more open access to Nankana Sahib as well as opened access to Punja Saheb. The shrines as well as the yatris also started receiving greater importance.
Sialkot. I have some personal association with that city. My father was an army officer posted there and I spent a year with him there when I was in second grade (doosri jamaat) in a school in the Saddar bazaar adjoining the Cantt. It had one of the most famous hindu monuments close to it, namely, Pooran Bhagat da khoo. There were many folklores and songs about Pooran. I remember visiting it as a child. It had a well where the body parts of Pooran Bhagat were supposed to have been thrown. There used to be an annual mela there.
The industrial foundation of Sialkot was laid by its hindu-sikh entrepreneurs before the partition. It was always known as the sports goods center of the undivided Punjab, just as Lyallpur was famous as the wheat mandi of Punjab, and maybe even India. After the partition, these industrialists went to Jullundur and started a sports goods industry there.
Regarding gurudwaras and subcontinental politics, the situation is somewhat more complex. Soon after the partition, Pakistan allowed Sikh jathas to visit Nankana Saheb. Politics was involved as Pakistan refused to allow similar permission to hindus to visit the Katas Raj. A pre-partition politician from that area, Raja Ghaznafar Ali Khan, was a high commissioner of India during the fifties and many hindu refugees knew him personally. He tried to intervene with the Pakistan govt. to let hindus have access to the Katas Raj but did not succeed. When Zia came to power, he actively courted the sikhs and allowed more open access to Nankana Sahib as well as opened access to Punja Saheb. The shrines as well as the yatris also started receiving greater importance.
#111 Posted by Romair on August 9, 2005 11:56:38 am
Friend/Dost #: ``I am genuinely interested..``
If you are really interested, then here is some more info...........
``A correction to your post. Not all Sikh gurudwaras have been looked after...... there were sikh gurudwaras in every mohalla in every city and in almost every village where hindus/sikhs lived. They have all disappeared and converted into use for other purposes.``
More than likely, you are correct. I am only talking about the ones I have seen in my lifetime.......And by the time I was born, all the small ones would have already disappeared......I don`t think the govt. of any country can be responsible for looking after every single small holy site, if no one is there to use them. It should, however, be responsible for looking after the larger prominent and symbolic one, however. Mosques, if not used, for years, will decay today, in Pakistan, also. If 100 years from now, everyone in Pakistan is a Bhuddhist, I don`t expect them to go on maintaining the thousands of mosques in Pakistan, if no one is going to use them. I would expect them to maintain the big ones like Faisal, Badshahi.......In that regard, the (major) Sikh sites have been maintained, but the Hindu ones have not been maintained..........To the point that I don`t even know of any major Hindu temples in Pakistan..........But I know and visited the Sikh ones.....
``Most probably Sikh gurudwara started getting attention after Pakistan`s support to Khalistan but not too sure about that.``
They have been well-maintiained througout. I lived next to one before 1984. It was spick and span clean........
``If nothing else than for knowing more about my heritage. My maternal grandmother was from Sialkot.``
Sialkot is an interesting place. It is a city that has become a major business center, just through cottage industries. One could consider it the cottage industry capital of Pakistan. It is an int`l center, now, for sporting equipment and surgical equipment. Some of the footballs used in World Cups were manufactured there..........The govt. would not built an airport there, so its business community is building an Int`l airport by themselves, to cater to their foreign clients!!
It was founded 5000(?) years ago by a guy who is mentioned in the Mahabhartha. It has produced the two greatest Urdu poets of our generation (Iqbal and Faiz). The two best since Ghalib, if you ask me. And the best cover-driver (Zaheer Abbas)........
Other than that, a pretty boring inconspicous place.......Sialkotis have a derogatory phrase attached to them, in Punjab, for some reason, i.e. Sialkoti; haram di boti (no offense, but I thought I needed to throw that in there.....)
If you are really interested, then here is some more info...........
``A correction to your post. Not all Sikh gurudwaras have been looked after...... there were sikh gurudwaras in every mohalla in every city and in almost every village where hindus/sikhs lived. They have all disappeared and converted into use for other purposes.``
More than likely, you are correct. I am only talking about the ones I have seen in my lifetime.......And by the time I was born, all the small ones would have already disappeared......I don`t think the govt. of any country can be responsible for looking after every single small holy site, if no one is there to use them. It should, however, be responsible for looking after the larger prominent and symbolic one, however. Mosques, if not used, for years, will decay today, in Pakistan, also. If 100 years from now, everyone in Pakistan is a Bhuddhist, I don`t expect them to go on maintaining the thousands of mosques in Pakistan, if no one is going to use them. I would expect them to maintain the big ones like Faisal, Badshahi.......In that regard, the (major) Sikh sites have been maintained, but the Hindu ones have not been maintained..........To the point that I don`t even know of any major Hindu temples in Pakistan..........But I know and visited the Sikh ones.....
``Most probably Sikh gurudwara started getting attention after Pakistan`s support to Khalistan but not too sure about that.``
They have been well-maintiained througout. I lived next to one before 1984. It was spick and span clean........
``If nothing else than for knowing more about my heritage. My maternal grandmother was from Sialkot.``
Sialkot is an interesting place. It is a city that has become a major business center, just through cottage industries. One could consider it the cottage industry capital of Pakistan. It is an int`l center, now, for sporting equipment and surgical equipment. Some of the footballs used in World Cups were manufactured there..........The govt. would not built an airport there, so its business community is building an Int`l airport by themselves, to cater to their foreign clients!!
It was founded 5000(?) years ago by a guy who is mentioned in the Mahabhartha. It has produced the two greatest Urdu poets of our generation (Iqbal and Faiz). The two best since Ghalib, if you ask me. And the best cover-driver (Zaheer Abbas)........
Other than that, a pretty boring inconspicous place.......Sialkotis have a derogatory phrase attached to them, in Punjab, for some reason, i.e. Sialkoti; haram di boti (no offense, but I thought I needed to throw that in there.....)
#110 Posted by friend on August 8, 2005 6:26:33 pm
T#107
Thanks..Would certainly try to visit TO.. It would be great if you can somehow digitized part of those veios and share over net....
Romair#108 I am genuinely interested.. If nothing else than for knowing more about my heritage. My maternal grandmother was from Sialkot.
DM#109
Most probably Sikh gurudwara started getting attention after Pakistan`s support to Khalistan but not too sure about that.
I would be surprised about no buddhist monateries ever being there in Nothern areas and that part of Kashmir. I have travelled extensively in Indian and Nepalese himalayas. Personal experience (of course post partition) and detials from all pre-partition travelogue tell me that buddhism could not have ended abruptly at Indian border. BTW, map of Gilgit shows a place called ``Nepura Buddha``. However further search indicates ruins of a monastery at that place...
Thanks..Would certainly try to visit TO.. It would be great if you can somehow digitized part of those veios and share over net....
Romair#108 I am genuinely interested.. If nothing else than for knowing more about my heritage. My maternal grandmother was from Sialkot.
DM#109
Most probably Sikh gurudwara started getting attention after Pakistan`s support to Khalistan but not too sure about that.
I would be surprised about no buddhist monateries ever being there in Nothern areas and that part of Kashmir. I have travelled extensively in Indian and Nepalese himalayas. Personal experience (of course post partition) and detials from all pre-partition travelogue tell me that buddhism could not have ended abruptly at Indian border. BTW, map of Gilgit shows a place called ``Nepura Buddha``. However further search indicates ruins of a monastery at that place...
#109 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2005 4:30:21 pm
Romair#108:
A correction to your post. Not all Sikh gurudwaras have been looked after, only the historical ones and primarily three - Punja Saheb in Hasan Abdal, Nankana Saheb and Derab Saheb in Lahore. At the time of the partition, there were sikh gurudwaras in every mohalla in every city and in almost every village where hindus/sikhs lived. They have all disappeared and converted into use for other purposes.
There are no buddhist temples in Pakistan as far as I know (don`t know about Northern Areas though). There perhaps were none even at the time of the partition.
While the artifacts in Museums at both Lahore and Taxila are well looked after, one cannot say the same thing about excavated buddhist sites where statues and idols have been badly vandalised.
A correction to your post. Not all Sikh gurudwaras have been looked after, only the historical ones and primarily three - Punja Saheb in Hasan Abdal, Nankana Saheb and Derab Saheb in Lahore. At the time of the partition, there were sikh gurudwaras in every mohalla in every city and in almost every village where hindus/sikhs lived. They have all disappeared and converted into use for other purposes.
There are no buddhist temples in Pakistan as far as I know (don`t know about Northern Areas though). There perhaps were none even at the time of the partition.
While the artifacts in Museums at both Lahore and Taxila are well looked after, one cannot say the same thing about excavated buddhist sites where statues and idols have been badly vandalised.
#108 Posted by Romair on August 8, 2005 3:56:55 pm
friend #various: Assuming you are really interested, here is some information for you:
- The only religious monuments etc. not looked after, in Pakistan, are Hindu temples. They are not torn down or destroyed, a la Ghaznavi. They are just not maintained, across Pakistan. Due to which the only areas where you will find maintained Hindu temples, etc, are areas where their are Hindus, i.e. Sind. Other than that, they will be in broken down shape, in complete decay, all over Pakistan, because no one visits them and the govt. has allowed them to decay......
- Sikh Gurdwaras are very well looked after by the govt. Perhaps because Pakistan sees its Punjab as the keeper of the Sikh holy sites. I lived next to one for two years, in Hasan Abdal. And visited it regularly. Very well looked after. Better than most mosques. I have not seen a Sikh site in Pakistan, in bad shape, even though there are hardly any Sikhs there......
- Mosques are obviously quite well looked after. However, there are so many now, that some of the famous ones have started detoriating. The govt. does not have the funds to overhaul them. Smaller ones are at every nook and corner now. There are some very nice modern ones, like Faisal, Defence etc. that have been constructed, as well.
- Bhuddhist sites are looked after as historical sites. I don`t know about Northern Areas, but Taxila etc. has a musuem filled with Bhudhhist artifacts. I have not seen any damage to the artifacts or sites, anywhere I have lived. Other than in Islamabad where there is a Buddha`s banyan tree, which someone partially attempted to burn down once......I hope it is still there
- Churches are quite well looked after (I think; cannot say with 100% certainity). They seem to be in good condition, wherever I have lived. Though one or two lately have been victims of Al-Qaeda type violence. There aren`t any historical churches in Pakistan. All must have been British or Pakistan made. They generally exist in areas where there is a Christian community, and that community looks after them (as does the govt.). Pakistan has around the same % of Christians (2.3%) as India. Most are concentrated in Lahore, which is 6-8% Christian. My guess is that the Churches condition isn`t any worse than mosques. Most of the really good top elementary and high schools in Pakistan are Convents. Hence Christian religious folks and their sites are well-respected.
That pretty much covers all the religions. So if you are a Muslim, Christian or Bhuddhist visiting Pakistan (at least in the areas I have lived), you will be fine with how things are maintained. However, if you are a Hindu, you will not. You will see most of the temples empty and in decayed condition (other than where Hindus live). Not because people have torn them down, but because the govt. didn`t take interest in their upkeep (or did not have enough money)............
Hope that answers your questions...........
- The only religious monuments etc. not looked after, in Pakistan, are Hindu temples. They are not torn down or destroyed, a la Ghaznavi. They are just not maintained, across Pakistan. Due to which the only areas where you will find maintained Hindu temples, etc, are areas where their are Hindus, i.e. Sind. Other than that, they will be in broken down shape, in complete decay, all over Pakistan, because no one visits them and the govt. has allowed them to decay......
- Sikh Gurdwaras are very well looked after by the govt. Perhaps because Pakistan sees its Punjab as the keeper of the Sikh holy sites. I lived next to one for two years, in Hasan Abdal. And visited it regularly. Very well looked after. Better than most mosques. I have not seen a Sikh site in Pakistan, in bad shape, even though there are hardly any Sikhs there......
- Mosques are obviously quite well looked after. However, there are so many now, that some of the famous ones have started detoriating. The govt. does not have the funds to overhaul them. Smaller ones are at every nook and corner now. There are some very nice modern ones, like Faisal, Defence etc. that have been constructed, as well.
- Bhuddhist sites are looked after as historical sites. I don`t know about Northern Areas, but Taxila etc. has a musuem filled with Bhudhhist artifacts. I have not seen any damage to the artifacts or sites, anywhere I have lived. Other than in Islamabad where there is a Buddha`s banyan tree, which someone partially attempted to burn down once......I hope it is still there
- Churches are quite well looked after (I think; cannot say with 100% certainity). They seem to be in good condition, wherever I have lived. Though one or two lately have been victims of Al-Qaeda type violence. There aren`t any historical churches in Pakistan. All must have been British or Pakistan made. They generally exist in areas where there is a Christian community, and that community looks after them (as does the govt.). Pakistan has around the same % of Christians (2.3%) as India. Most are concentrated in Lahore, which is 6-8% Christian. My guess is that the Churches condition isn`t any worse than mosques. Most of the really good top elementary and high schools in Pakistan are Convents. Hence Christian religious folks and their sites are well-respected.
That pretty much covers all the religions. So if you are a Muslim, Christian or Bhuddhist visiting Pakistan (at least in the areas I have lived), you will be fine with how things are maintained. However, if you are a Hindu, you will not. You will see most of the temples empty and in decayed condition (other than where Hindus live). Not because people have torn them down, but because the govt. didn`t take interest in their upkeep (or did not have enough money)............
Hope that answers your questions...........
#107 Posted by temporal on August 8, 2005 3:29:53 pm
friend #106:
pardon this interruption between friend and dost
…don’t have pictures but perhaps can still oblige you if u visit TO
have video tapes of four or five functioning temples in karachi and two in the interior that i visited ... there are more...am only mentioning the ones i visited last year…
rgds
t
pardon this interruption between friend and dost
…don’t have pictures but perhaps can still oblige you if u visit TO
have video tapes of four or five functioning temples in karachi and two in the interior that i visited ... there are more...am only mentioning the ones i visited last year…
rgds
t
#106 Posted by friend on August 8, 2005 2:47:56 pm
DM#104
I would be surprised with them going out of use due to not having any tourist value. What happened to buddhist monasteries in Gilgit and nothern areas. Ladakh has such monasteries right upto border and they are big tourist attraction, not becuase overnment did anything for them, but because they have not been touched by government. In case of Pakistani nothern areas, such monasteries sem to have disappeared. Only thing I can find in Pakistan tourism brouchers is - ruins of buddhist monasteries...
May be I am just being sceptic and there are few thousands such temples and monasteries hidden somewhere. And Pakistani brothers will prove me wrong by posting few photographs.
I would be surprised with them going out of use due to not having any tourist value. What happened to buddhist monasteries in Gilgit and nothern areas. Ladakh has such monasteries right upto border and they are big tourist attraction, not becuase overnment did anything for them, but because they have not been touched by government. In case of Pakistani nothern areas, such monasteries sem to have disappeared. Only thing I can find in Pakistan tourism brouchers is - ruins of buddhist monasteries...
May be I am just being sceptic and there are few thousands such temples and monasteries hidden somewhere. And Pakistani brothers will prove me wrong by posting few photographs.
#105 Posted by Romair on August 8, 2005 1:12:34 pm
Dost-Mittar #103: ``Romair: What can I say!
Jo bhi ho tum, khuda ki kassam lajawaab ho:)``
Aap say mil kay hum kuch badal say gayee
Shaer parhnay lagay, gugunanay lagay
Pehley mash-hoor thee apni sanjeedagi
Abb to jab dekhiyaya muskuranay lagay...........
Jo bhi ho tum, khuda ki kassam lajawaab ho:)``
Aap say mil kay hum kuch badal say gayee
Shaer parhnay lagay, gugunanay lagay
Pehley mash-hoor thee apni sanjeedagi
Abb to jab dekhiyaya muskuranay lagay...........
#104 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2005 10:08:00 am
friend#97:
I have seen functioning churches in Pakistan. I have visited three hostorical, functioning gurudwaras in Pakistan. I believe there is a functioning Lakshmi Mandir in Karachi though I did not go there. You wouldn`t find them in books or travel literature since they do not have any tourist value.
I have visited Katas Raj. It was defaced probably during the initial mayhem following the partition; however, Pakistan government is now making attempts to repair it and, if they are smart, turn it into a tourist attraction.
I have seen functioning churches in Pakistan. I have visited three hostorical, functioning gurudwaras in Pakistan. I believe there is a functioning Lakshmi Mandir in Karachi though I did not go there. You wouldn`t find them in books or travel literature since they do not have any tourist value.
I have visited Katas Raj. It was defaced probably during the initial mayhem following the partition; however, Pakistan government is now making attempts to repair it and, if they are smart, turn it into a tourist attraction.
#103 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2005 10:02:47 am
Romair:
What can I say!
Jo bhi ho tum, khuda ki kassam lajawaab ho:)
What can I say!
Jo bhi ho tum, khuda ki kassam lajawaab ho:)
#102 Posted by Romair on August 8, 2005 8:57:06 am
Hamidm mian #: ``...... can i be the great gonzo since i too don`t have any idea what you are talking about ? ......... step back, take a deep breath to clear out the cobwebs, and try again ....... on second thought, forget it - it is hopeless``
First of all, I need to find out whether you and I are still on, ``mian,`` terms. It has been very hearbreaking for me to notice that you have not been using that term, lately (though it is heartening to see that you did, mention it in the previous reply). Have you let Bush and the, ``horrible Hindus`` finally come between us. We already have much lower IQs than them. And granted, we maybe much better looking, but in today`s world, looks can only take someone, so far. So, we need to stick together, i.e. even if you are not intelligent enough to understand what I am saying, just nod your head, and say that it makes perfect sense (at least in front of the horrible Hindus)..........
woh jo hum mein tum mein qaraar tha, tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho
woh hi yaani wada nibaah ka, tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho ke na yaad ho
kabhi hum me tume me bhi chaah thi, kabhi hum se tum se bhi rah thii
kabhi hum bhi tum se they aashnaa, tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho
First of all, I need to find out whether you and I are still on, ``mian,`` terms. It has been very hearbreaking for me to notice that you have not been using that term, lately (though it is heartening to see that you did, mention it in the previous reply). Have you let Bush and the, ``horrible Hindus`` finally come between us. We already have much lower IQs than them. And granted, we maybe much better looking, but in today`s world, looks can only take someone, so far. So, we need to stick together, i.e. even if you are not intelligent enough to understand what I am saying, just nod your head, and say that it makes perfect sense (at least in front of the horrible Hindus)..........
woh jo hum mein tum mein qaraar tha, tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho
woh hi yaani wada nibaah ka, tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho ke na yaad ho
kabhi hum me tume me bhi chaah thi, kabhi hum se tum se bhi rah thii
kabhi hum bhi tum se they aashnaa, tumhe yaad ho ke na yaad ho
#101 Posted by hamidm2 on August 8, 2005 8:11:19 am
Re: # 99
romair mian,
...... can i be the great gonzo since i too don`t have any idea what you are talking about ? ......... step back, take a deep breath to clear out the cobwebs, and try again ....... on second thought, forget it - it is hopeless
romair mian,
...... can i be the great gonzo since i too don`t have any idea what you are talking about ? ......... step back, take a deep breath to clear out the cobwebs, and try again ....... on second thought, forget it - it is hopeless
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- _arjun30: #78 Posted by... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- sharmeenqazi1: Indian Prime Minister Dr.... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- 1Safe: Excerpt from an interview... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- sharmeenqazi1: I wonder how the... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- 1Safe: Excerpt from an interview... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- santoshkhare: if one is accused... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- _arjun30: HAHA....kashmir banega pakiland....right.. Five killed... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- _arjun30: New pics.
... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
