Bhaskar Dasgupta August 5, 2005
#1 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on August 5, 2005 1:42:45 am
Dasgupta
I agree.
Perfectly educated person would argue for an hour against the Bombers but will finally come up with a BIG BUt about the root causes. As if the Germans & the Japenese got the Americans out by bombing!
I seem to agree with Bush, howsoever dumb he may be, that NEVER APPEASE A RELIGIOUS fanatic. He will always ask for more.
My logic is simply based on self-interest. After he is through with the Jews, Christians, Budhhists etc etc, he will head for me. Why I am not the right kind of Muslim?
nhk
I agree.
Perfectly educated person would argue for an hour against the Bombers but will finally come up with a BIG BUt about the root causes. As if the Germans & the Japenese got the Americans out by bombing!
I seem to agree with Bush, howsoever dumb he may be, that NEVER APPEASE A RELIGIOUS fanatic. He will always ask for more.
My logic is simply based on self-interest. After he is through with the Jews, Christians, Budhhists etc etc, he will head for me. Why I am not the right kind of Muslim?
nhk
#2 Posted by engr_malik on August 5, 2005 2:13:01 am
All arguments revolve around killing of Ms. Jane Doe. Though,Mr.Abdullah killed in Afghanistan or Iraq has no worth to even give one line in this coloumn.
One thing is clear Mr. Author, it was an outrage and there could be many reason for this outrage which those commentators mentioned. Ms. Jane Doe became victim of this outrage just like an Abdullah celebrating marraige in Afghanistan few years ago. Is it too difficult to understand ? Now don`t expect from everybody behaving like a humanist in all circumstances. Mr.Bush and Tony Blair fits into the same category of those bumbers. For me both sides are terrorists and anti-human.
Bush= Tony Blayer= Muslim (or anyother) terrorist.
One thing is clear Mr. Author, it was an outrage and there could be many reason for this outrage which those commentators mentioned. Ms. Jane Doe became victim of this outrage just like an Abdullah celebrating marraige in Afghanistan few years ago. Is it too difficult to understand ? Now don`t expect from everybody behaving like a humanist in all circumstances. Mr.Bush and Tony Blair fits into the same category of those bumbers. For me both sides are terrorists and anti-human.
Bush= Tony Blayer= Muslim (or anyother) terrorist.
#3 Posted by BeeJay on August 5, 2005 3:12:11 am
[“I do not feel your pain. I have to admit that I do not have any sympathy for you. I cannot feel anything for you, because you are a non-believer”. ]
Reluctantly, I am coming around to recognize that the above sentence accurately captures the mindset of many Muslims – versus the rest of the world! The REAL root cause of most of their problems – this exclusivity that one is trained to believe in from infancy – does not get acknowledged – forget about addressing it!
#1 NHK
NHK, the sequence is the other way round! Time and again, it is shown that the moderate elements within a group are the FIRST menu items for its extremist elements – after they successfully suppress, forcibly ensure acquiescence, or fully destroy such elements, only then do the extremist elements move on to bigger game.
#4 Posted by purvamitra on August 5, 2005 3:30:50 am
Re: # 3
I don`t think that Pakistanis or muslims are in anyway different than other youngsters. Mostly
they are confused about religion ( where mama and papa try to indoctrinate them into
religion . and environment where they develop is secular ). There is a vacuum of real religious
development in asian youths.
Suddenly they are before a firebrand preacher or mulllah who with a twisted logic leads them
to the path of hatred and destruction.
Add to that the inferiority complex of parents, this avalanche of confusion makes youths
turn to archane ways of islam.
There is also an added factor of thrill, too.
I don`t think that Pakistanis or muslims are in anyway different than other youngsters. Mostly
they are confused about religion ( where mama and papa try to indoctrinate them into
religion . and environment where they develop is secular ). There is a vacuum of real religious
development in asian youths.
Suddenly they are before a firebrand preacher or mulllah who with a twisted logic leads them
to the path of hatred and destruction.
Add to that the inferiority complex of parents, this avalanche of confusion makes youths
turn to archane ways of islam.
There is also an added factor of thrill, too.
#5 Posted by takeiteasy on August 5, 2005 4:09:12 am
firstly there are no arcane ways of ISLAM. ISLAM is a very noble religion but has fallen prey to its various interpretations which are bleeding the muslim community today. these interpretations are used by various so called leaders of the community to further their cause for which they take the help of fire brand preachers which have great influence on the young minds who are the most vulnerable and these neo-jehadis with their wrong notions of freedom and sacrifice become the deadliest weapons in the world be it kashmir , wtc or kingscross .
#6 Posted by ballukhan on August 5, 2005 4:16:20 am
Very well articulated humanism in this article. I would wonder when we are going to stop looking at the ``root causes`` and start brehaving like human beings.
I think we are seeing a collapse of humanism of the the romantics and a rise of the satanism of the fanatics!!
I think we are seeing a collapse of humanism of the the romantics and a rise of the satanism of the fanatics!!
#7 Posted by ballukhan on August 5, 2005 4:18:22 am
Re: # 1
``My logic is simply based on self-interest. After he is through with the Jews, Christians, Budhhists etc etc, he will head for me. Why I am not the right kind of Muslim?
nhk``
I have heard that the Hasba bill has been finally stalled by the SC..............full marks to the judiciary this time even if it was done under pressure from Mush!!
``My logic is simply based on self-interest. After he is through with the Jews, Christians, Budhhists etc etc, he will head for me. Why I am not the right kind of Muslim?
nhk``
I have heard that the Hasba bill has been finally stalled by the SC..............full marks to the judiciary this time even if it was done under pressure from Mush!!
#8 Posted by ballukhan on August 5, 2005 4:37:19 am
Only pigs would endorse this rascal`s statement!!
Text of al-Zawahri statement
Clips from the tape
Here is the text of a video taped statement by Osama Bin Laden`s lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahri, broadcast by al-Jazeera television on 4 August 2005.
As for the British, I tell them that [UK Prime Minister Tony] Blair has brought you destruction in central London, and God willing, will bring more destruction.
O nations of the crusade alliance, we proposed that you at least stop your aggression against the Muslims. The lion of Islam, mujaheed sheikh Osama Bin Laden, may God preserve him, offered you a truce to leave the house of Islam.
Has sheikh Osama Bin Laden not informed you that you will not dream of security until we live it in reality in Palestine and before all infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, may peace be upon him?
Your salvation will only come in your withdrawal from our land
Ayman al-Zawahri
You, however, shed rivers of blood in our land so we exploded volcanoes of anger in your land.
Our message to you is crystal clear: Your salvation will only come in your withdrawal from our land, in stopping the robbing of our oil and resources, and in stopping your support for the corrupt and corrupting leaders.
What you have you seen, O Americans, in New York and Washington and the losses you are having in Afghanistan and Iraq, in spite of all the media blackout, are only the losses of the initial clashes.
`Worse than Vietnam`
If you continue the same policy of aggression against Muslims, God willing, you will see horror that will make you forget what you saw in Vietnam.
The truth which [US President George W] Bush, [US Secretary of State Condoleezza] Rice and [US Defense Secretary Donald] Rumsfeld hide from you is that the only way out from Iraq is immediate withdrawal, and any delay in this decision will only mean more deaths and more losses.
If you don`t leave today, then you shall inevitably leave tomorrow but after scores of thousands of fatalities and double that number of disabled and wounded people.
They are repeating with regard to Iraq the same claims and lies they uttered about Vietnam.
Did they not tell you that they would train the Vietnamese people so that they would run their own affairs themselves, and that they were defending freedom in Vietnam?
Text of al-Zawahri statement
Clips from the tape
Here is the text of a video taped statement by Osama Bin Laden`s lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahri, broadcast by al-Jazeera television on 4 August 2005.
As for the British, I tell them that [UK Prime Minister Tony] Blair has brought you destruction in central London, and God willing, will bring more destruction.
O nations of the crusade alliance, we proposed that you at least stop your aggression against the Muslims. The lion of Islam, mujaheed sheikh Osama Bin Laden, may God preserve him, offered you a truce to leave the house of Islam.
Has sheikh Osama Bin Laden not informed you that you will not dream of security until we live it in reality in Palestine and before all infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, may peace be upon him?
Your salvation will only come in your withdrawal from our land
Ayman al-Zawahri
You, however, shed rivers of blood in our land so we exploded volcanoes of anger in your land.
Our message to you is crystal clear: Your salvation will only come in your withdrawal from our land, in stopping the robbing of our oil and resources, and in stopping your support for the corrupt and corrupting leaders.
What you have you seen, O Americans, in New York and Washington and the losses you are having in Afghanistan and Iraq, in spite of all the media blackout, are only the losses of the initial clashes.
`Worse than Vietnam`
If you continue the same policy of aggression against Muslims, God willing, you will see horror that will make you forget what you saw in Vietnam.
The truth which [US President George W] Bush, [US Secretary of State Condoleezza] Rice and [US Defense Secretary Donald] Rumsfeld hide from you is that the only way out from Iraq is immediate withdrawal, and any delay in this decision will only mean more deaths and more losses.
If you don`t leave today, then you shall inevitably leave tomorrow but after scores of thousands of fatalities and double that number of disabled and wounded people.
They are repeating with regard to Iraq the same claims and lies they uttered about Vietnam.
Did they not tell you that they would train the Vietnamese people so that they would run their own affairs themselves, and that they were defending freedom in Vietnam?
#9 Posted by arjun_m on August 5, 2005 5:58:52 am
The first commentator talks about how the UK’s participation in the War on Terror in Afghanistan has caused British Muslims to get upset and go off to blow up innocent tube travellers.
2 questions:
1. Why were the bombers brit-pakistanis who lived a life of relative luxury in the UK and not afghan or iraqi refugees....
2. If the plight of the muslims and not ummahism is the reason, why were there no brit-pakistanis flying to iraq to blow up the HQ of saddam`s secret service? Heck...the US/UK governments supported saddam when he killed a bunch of muslims...why didn`t these pakis blow themselves up then?
#10 Posted by beady on August 5, 2005 1:44:44 pm
#2 by engr_malik
Fair point indeed. So I presume you are saying that because Mr. Abdullah was killed in Afghanistan, Jane Doe was killed in London? And you expect this legal defence to hold?
#9 by arjun_m
Good question #1 for which I do not have an answer. One associated fact for you to consider, east african refugees WERE involved.
Question #2, the reactions are different when Muslims are killing Muslims. Further calibration is when Shia are killing Sunni or vice versa. Unfortunately, no simple answers either, Arjun.
Fair point indeed. So I presume you are saying that because Mr. Abdullah was killed in Afghanistan, Jane Doe was killed in London? And you expect this legal defence to hold?
#9 by arjun_m
Good question #1 for which I do not have an answer. One associated fact for you to consider, east african refugees WERE involved.
Question #2, the reactions are different when Muslims are killing Muslims. Further calibration is when Shia are killing Sunni or vice versa. Unfortunately, no simple answers either, Arjun.
#11 Posted by mohar11 on August 5, 2005 1:46:47 pm
It`s kind of insensitive to the brits who are fellow-victims of jihad - but I have to say this - as you sow, so you reap. Brit mofos have been feeding these jihadi snakes for a long time - pontificating towards people who have been fighting the menace all the while they have been molly-coddling the jihadis .
``Just`` 52 people dead and brits are already executing suspects in public. When chips down - these people have shown their true colors...... Which is fine - you have to what you have to do to protect yourself from jihad ..... But where was that sensitivity when indians where hit by the same evil day in and day out for 15 years? Why were the brits sheltering the jihadi mothaf**ers?
Reap what you have sown. The price of ingoring extermism - brits have to pay the price.
``Just`` 52 people dead and brits are already executing suspects in public. When chips down - these people have shown their true colors...... Which is fine - you have to what you have to do to protect yourself from jihad ..... But where was that sensitivity when indians where hit by the same evil day in and day out for 15 years? Why were the brits sheltering the jihadi mothaf**ers?
Reap what you have sown. The price of ingoring extermism - brits have to pay the price.
#12 Posted by mohar11 on August 5, 2005 1:58:15 pm
Re: # 10
//reactions are different when Muslims are killing Muslims...Unfortunately, no simple answers...//
Actually, there is. As (in)famous Jay would say - K for Kafir indoctrination that pakis[and other muslim communities] go thru right from childhood - no matter where they live, what they do, how rich they are.... That`s the simple answer.
For pakis and other muslims - there is the Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-everybody-else.
//reactions are different when Muslims are killing Muslims...Unfortunately, no simple answers...//
Actually, there is. As (in)famous Jay would say - K for Kafir indoctrination that pakis[and other muslim communities] go thru right from childhood - no matter where they live, what they do, how rich they are.... That`s the simple answer.
For pakis and other muslims - there is the Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-everybody-else.
#13 Posted by temporal on August 5, 2005 2:18:42 pm
(long post)
beady:
there is no one reason that can be precisely pin pointed for this spread for suicide bombers…you have touched and explored some of them…and there must be more…
i briefly mentioned somewhere that (from the international relations perspective the proliferation of suicide bomber) this is an equalizer…replacing the check and balance of the old world order in the new unipolar world…the rich world has their economy backed with destructive push button annihilation capabilities to sustain their growth and colonization…the third world has neither the economic depth nor do they have a power deterrent at their behest…
result? proliferation of suicide bomber to restore a primitive check and balance in international relations
(of course several questions come to mind: you have some of them yourself..chiefly among them why does this afflict muslims mostly!)
…another interesting perspective on suicide bombers is their utter brainwashing…as a muslim they believe ( as recorded in the past and reported by themselves and by journalists who have spent time with them) ..they would go to heaven!
..and as a muslim…i sincerely believed they are misguided and would end in a hell!
in another column perhaps you should explore thought reform or brainwashing
rgds
t
digression: In reaching out for some reason why a young adult would radically reject the way which parents had prepared for them to fine a successful (and by their standards, normal) life, parents tended to place the blame upon the group that s/he had joined, and increasingly upon the leader of that group. The several organizations founded in the early 1970s drew upon the literature developed primarily by American Evangelical Christian writers that referred to the new religions as ``cults.`` (1) Through the early 1970s, they began to seek the assistance of law enforcement agencies and various professionals, primarily mental health professionals, to intervene in the life of the new believers. Police and courts were generally unable to assist parents whose child had joined a cult, a ``cult`` being defined as it was in Evangelical literature merely by its espousal of a radically different set of beliefs. The situation changed in the late 1970s largely as a result of (a) the discovery of involuntary deprogramming as a technique that had some positive results in persuading members to drop their affiliations to new religions, (b) the emergence of the concept of brainwashing in the trial of millionaire heiress Patty Hearst, and (c) the death of some 900 people at Jonestown.
First, the original parental groups found a major ally in the person of Theodore ``Ted`` Patrick who stumbled upon the process of deprogramming after being alerted to the dangers of cults when one of his relatives became briefly associated with the Children of God. In 1976 he authored a popular volume, Let Our Children Go,(2) describing his kidnapping of several people and the application of various forms of physical and emotional stress in an attempt to force them to sever their relationship to the group, be it the Unification Church, the Hare Krishna, The Divine Light Mission of Guru Maharaj Ji, or one of the several new Evangelical Christian groups.
rest here Brainwashing and the Cults: Te Rise and Fall of a Theory by J. Gordon Melton
#14 Posted by BeeJay on August 5, 2005 7:51:32 pm
#13 T-Bhai Saab:
Please don’t get too nostalgic about the “good old days” of the cold war – what you euphemistically called the days of “checks and balances”. The Soviet bear from the seventies and eighties knew no balance – thank God the Americans were able to check, then checkmate him! The present “unipolar” world is a vast, vast improvement – at least we don’t go to bed dreading if there will still be a tomorrow for the world – remember, the time for those nuclear ICBM’s to cross the globe was less than an hour! I will take a few (or more) suicide bombers any day! (Interesting discussion about cults – but it’s not a smart idea to lump all of them together – especially the ones which are inward-looking with those which are not!)
#4 Mitra Sahib
Let’s cut out that crap about how heartbroken the parents get and how it is all the fault of those narrow-minded uneducated Mullahs. That model has long been discarded. Children learn what they learn from the following sources and in the following decreasing order of importance (1) parents, (2) school, (3) society, (4) media. Mullahs are just one weak element of the third source – the parents are (and have forever been) numero uno!
#15 Posted by beady on August 5, 2005 11:12:37 pm
#13 by temporal
You raise important issues. This topic of suicide bombing is such a strange animal and has simply far too many facets for one person to really put their arms around. I have been flirting with this topic from many angles which you can check on my blog. That said, my specific points (long post here as well :))
1. This was a slightly satrical piece aimed at the root causers so to say. It was aimed at trying to show the impact of terrorist from the victim`s perspective. I urge all to read the book which I referred to. It was not oriented towards trying to explain the reasons behind why suicide bombers come up.
2. I am afraid I have to disagree with your statement that this is assymetrical warfare. Yes, I understand the logic and argument which you are making, but I am afraid I have a different take on it. Soldiers dying for their comrades or going to blow up a tank with a satchel full of grenades are not considered to be suicide terrorism. Its when civilians are targeted with expressedly political or religious ideological basis that we call it suicide terrorism. Its ideology, tamil tigers or hizbollah or the saudi volunteers are not really going up against the BIG weapons, they go after the easy meat/victims. Their objective isn`t to go up against the military but to go after the infidel/civilian/other/you name it. The tamil tigers who went up against the sri lankans were roughly equal in parity but still used it. It’s a remarkably effective weapon, and if your ideology (marxism, separatism, islamism) is powerful enough, you will get the useful idiots to carry this out for you. It is just another communication means (excluding the military benefits), a potent and shocking one, but just communication at end of the day. They are sending a message, temporal. But yes, this needs good treatment and have stored this for another column another day :), thank you for the idea.
3. This doesn’t sound good either but brainwashing can easily be termed as faith. Take for example the tantrics or aghori`s of Hinduism, the naked monks in jainism, the bloody Christian pilgrims in christianity who wear crowns of thorns, the ma`atm of Shia`s, these are expressions of piety which, when looked at from a certain perspective, does resemble brainwashing. Putting it in another way, if I did this type of behaviour and wanted to explain to say a rational, secular and dare I say westernised chap, I would not be able to explain more than just say its my way to god and that`s my faith. And you will be fully justified in saying that I am brainwashed. Is that wrong? Is that right? Difficult question, my friend. Misguided? Only for a person who is on another path. This is why it is notoriously difficult to deal with issues around faith. As for a column on this, I am hesitant to even broach this topic, very difficult to do justice to it without sounding like a hysterical carpet muncher, difficult to see this topic from both sides.
You raise important issues. This topic of suicide bombing is such a strange animal and has simply far too many facets for one person to really put their arms around. I have been flirting with this topic from many angles which you can check on my blog. That said, my specific points (long post here as well :))
1. This was a slightly satrical piece aimed at the root causers so to say. It was aimed at trying to show the impact of terrorist from the victim`s perspective. I urge all to read the book which I referred to. It was not oriented towards trying to explain the reasons behind why suicide bombers come up.
2. I am afraid I have to disagree with your statement that this is assymetrical warfare. Yes, I understand the logic and argument which you are making, but I am afraid I have a different take on it. Soldiers dying for their comrades or going to blow up a tank with a satchel full of grenades are not considered to be suicide terrorism. Its when civilians are targeted with expressedly political or religious ideological basis that we call it suicide terrorism. Its ideology, tamil tigers or hizbollah or the saudi volunteers are not really going up against the BIG weapons, they go after the easy meat/victims. Their objective isn`t to go up against the military but to go after the infidel/civilian/other/you name it. The tamil tigers who went up against the sri lankans were roughly equal in parity but still used it. It’s a remarkably effective weapon, and if your ideology (marxism, separatism, islamism) is powerful enough, you will get the useful idiots to carry this out for you. It is just another communication means (excluding the military benefits), a potent and shocking one, but just communication at end of the day. They are sending a message, temporal. But yes, this needs good treatment and have stored this for another column another day :), thank you for the idea.
3. This doesn’t sound good either but brainwashing can easily be termed as faith. Take for example the tantrics or aghori`s of Hinduism, the naked monks in jainism, the bloody Christian pilgrims in christianity who wear crowns of thorns, the ma`atm of Shia`s, these are expressions of piety which, when looked at from a certain perspective, does resemble brainwashing. Putting it in another way, if I did this type of behaviour and wanted to explain to say a rational, secular and dare I say westernised chap, I would not be able to explain more than just say its my way to god and that`s my faith. And you will be fully justified in saying that I am brainwashed. Is that wrong? Is that right? Difficult question, my friend. Misguided? Only for a person who is on another path. This is why it is notoriously difficult to deal with issues around faith. As for a column on this, I am hesitant to even broach this topic, very difficult to do justice to it without sounding like a hysterical carpet muncher, difficult to see this topic from both sides.
#16 Posted by tahmed32 on August 6, 2005 3:41:35 am
temporal #13 So you think suicide bombing is a means to balance power internationally. Wrong answer. You get an F, sorry to say. This is why:
Suicide bombers, while they destroy lives of those unfortunate enough to be travelling in the same bus or plane with them, do not put a dent on society. More people are killed every day in traffic accidents daily than suicide bombers kill in an year. You would be more accurate if you claimed that drunk drivers are a means to balance power internationally.
Suicide bombers, while they destroy lives of those unfortunate enough to be travelling in the same bus or plane with them, do not put a dent on society. More people are killed every day in traffic accidents daily than suicide bombers kill in an year. You would be more accurate if you claimed that drunk drivers are a means to balance power internationally.
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