Fleshened Bones

lahol wila quwwat

no one can insult a woman more than a woman herself

FV,
Really daling, yours is always a great read. But only if, even when used sarcastically, yoyu would lessen the usage of the `b` word so much. :)

It is tough to explain something like this, perhaps not even advisable, but it is just too good to pass…I enjoy the challenge of such discussions…

#4 by bluegaze:
Thanks! The email addy is farzanavee@chowk.com.

#7 by dost-mittar:

[Are you comparing Bombay - okay, Mumbai - to a woman who has ``janam diya mardon kau, mardon ne usse bazaar diya`` etc., etc.?]

Indeed!

I did survive the ordeal, except for the lack of connectivity and some other minor problems compared to the immensity of what my city has gone through.

#8 by Subroto:

[while you were able to sustain the tempo for over 160 lines there were a few bumps on the way.]

Re. bumps, I suppose so as a reader you might have found some (I admit mine will be a subjective view).
Re. the tempo, if you notice in the latter part the tone itself changes…it is gentler. Maybe the bumps came about as I was changing gears? (And clairvoyants already suspect I don’t know how to drive…)

#9,10 by Ajeya:

[Hmmm....Lesbo?]

[It could explian the ``virgin whore`` bit.]

Technically, you could be right, though again not necessarily. The reference to ‘virgin whore’ is about the soul being untouched, virginal…even as the body is plundered.

#11 by Zeena:

[I can smell lesbianism here.Gosh,save us from lesbianism.]

Nah. Rest assured, if this writer feels that way she will be out with it. Am wondering about your strong sense of smell though!

#12 by BeeJay

[Sorry, I am on travel, so could not get to this piece until just now.]

I wonder what you do on your travels considering you are here most of the time.

[but some of the language! Wow! I do not recall such words in any of your earlier work. (Or did I miss it?)]

Like a lot else, you missed it. But I use it only to convey a message for a purpose.

[Although this may be too much for my janitorial depth, that rarely stops me.]

I notice.

[Therefore, a few bits of my feedback (as distinct from scholarly feedback from the chowk sages)]

Who are the sages?

[(1) I believe this one has too many words]

Just 748 (your post here is 723). Having said that, I could prune it now, not when I first wrote it.

[(2) Do you have to convert EVERYTHING into a man versus woman issue so?]

It isn’t. The abusers could be women…

[(3) Your footnote appears to be completely out of place! ]

No. It is right there where I wanted it to be. This was a ‘tribute’ to my city – a hurt, pained one.

[There is no way one can simplify all the complexities, all the vividness, all the various shades of colors, all the moods, all the richness – that the metropolis of Mumbai represents – to a one dimensional life of an exploited prostitute!]

You don’t tell me about my city. For ‘literary’ purposes people do use a single imagery often… besides, there are kinds and kinds of prostitutes…

[(4) I think (I honestly do) that you could have improved its effectiveness (for the reader) a lot by actually toning down certain parts – where the elements of confrontation stand out so starkly that they really distract from the undercurrent of hurting and pain – which I suspect you wish to draw an attention to.]

If you can see what I wish to draw attention to then there has not been much distraction. The confrontation was deliberate – to remind a comatose ‘her’ about what she has been through, even push the envelope, and then “lay down” and share the pain.

[My gut feeling is, this is good stuff, but could have been made more effective. But then again, that adds to its individuality - so who am I to say anything?]

I thought that would be it…but you continue!

[“You don’t tell them you like it deep
Your pleasure is not on their minds”
This is an absolute misconception – at least if you are portraying from a prostitute’s perspective. It is well-established that prostitutes do not derive any physical pleasure from their professional acts! They do it strictly for the wages!]

But as a woman she has desires…

[“And madames who learned
At your feet
Will give you a kick
A polite pedicured kick
From sheer envy”
Again, the inconsistency sticks out here. Generally speaking, madams (except for the Heidi Fleisch variety) are rarely proud of what they do for a living – it is kind of stretching things by attributing envy among madams – based on (I assume what you are saying is) an age difference. It never happens in real life and does not appear credible to me as a reader.]

Madames here are not pros…they are regular people who abuse the city. Just as pimps are ones who sell out and sell it…btw, how are you so confident it “never happens in real life”?

Anyhow, thanks for sticking to the subject.

#13 by Soulat:

[What I find interesting is that a woman writer chose to use a symbol that is mostly associated with men’s horrible lack of sensitivity. For a man, equating love, longing, and fulfillment with a woman or sometimes with a whore is a simplistically natural thing to do.]

Whore here is anyone/anything that is used and abused. The identification is visceral…

“They make promises to you
They make promises to me too
As they pitch their tents precariously
And see a home in our eyes.” And…

“As I trace your forgotten curves
And touch your bones
I can tell you it hasn’t been
Much different for me”

[For women in the subcontinent, a whore is a rival but there is lots of fascination associated with a woman that can deal with a man on equal terms. For some woman in the subcontinent, a whore is almost a man.]

Interesting observation. I hope it puts into perspective the fact that I, as a writer, do not see her as a rival but as ‘sister, mother, fellow bitch”.

[This appears corny:
“The stench of your shit
Is no different from mine”
This is a banal expression associated with the lowest of the low rednecks in the US.]

Don’t want to sound defensive, but here a woman, supposedly better off in most ways, is telling the whore that where one of the greatest levellers is concerned they are no different. I am afraid this time I have to stand up for the banality.

Re: # 11
I am not sure if FV intended those lines to be ``lesbo`` but even if they are, what is the problem? You say God save you from Lesbianism, I think you should think about all kinds of real threats to our lives in this day and world, rather than be so myopic about this one. I am a lesbian and let me tell you we don`t bite unless we are provoked!;) Amazing to see how narrow-minded some of the interactions are here. God save us from heterosexual, patriarchs!
Learn to be a little tolerant!

Re: # 11
I am not sure if FV intended those lines to be ``lesbo`` but even if they are, what is the problem? You say God save you from Lesbianism, I think you should think about all kinds of real threats to our lives in this day and world, rather than be so myopic about this one. I am a lesbian and let me tell you we don`t bite unless we are provoked!;) Amazing to see how narrow-minded some of the interactions are here. God save us from heterosexual, patriarchs!
Learn to be a little tolerant!

The idea of equating Bombay to a whore does not appear to be simplistic at all. Though, this is not a new concept and many writers have preferred to equate their city of choice or birth to a woman or a whore.

What I find interesting is that a woman writer chose to use a symbol that is mostly associated with men’s horrible lack of sensitivity. For a man, equating love, longing, and fulfillment with a woman or sometimes with a whore is a simplistically natural thing to do.

A woman echoing the same sentiment, appears a little odd. I think that probably is the reason some posters talked about a feeling that does not appear to be FV.

A whore is the ultimate fancy of a middleclass man growing up in the constrained Subcontinent society and I think that probably was in the back of FV’s mind when she chose to equate Bombay with a “used up” whore.
For women in the subcontinent, a whore is a rival but there is lots of fascination associated with a woman that can deal with a man on equal terms. For some woman in the subcontinent, a whore is almost a man.

I know for sure that a whore, for lots of western women, invokes a certain aura that is not associated with independence or rivalry but of contempt and often downright hate.

This appears corny:
“The stench of your shit
Is no different from mine”

This is a banal expression associated with the lowest of the low rednecks in the US. This could have been said differently. Apparently, this part was not edited carefully. A piece of literature can do without triteness.

Dear Farzana,

Sorry, I am on travel, so could not get to this piece until just now. (Before going any further, please let me convey my (belated but genuine) concerns for you (and other Bombayites) for your welfare and safety. I pray for those who underwent that terrible (weather-caused) ordeal.)

I am impressed by this piece in a somewhat different way than with your other creative works – I must confess that many parts of it just went over my head (which I am still scratching) – but some of the language! Wow! I do not recall such words in any of your earlier work. (Or did I miss it?)

(I believe people have been filtered out for a LOT less! (Just Kidding! (I know for a fact that this web site demonstrates an enormous amount of patience with people who use expletives, for example.)))

Although this may be too much for my janitorial depth, that rarely stops me. Therefore, a few bits of my feedback (as distinct from scholarly feedback from the chowk sages):

(1) I believe this one has too many words (not that I would know much about poetry (or about anything else in the world (or the afterworld, for that matter))). Obviously, I can not tell you where you could have cut back – it’s your baby – but my gut feeling is, there must be some places – because it just IS too long!

(2) Do you have to convert EVERYTHING into a man versus woman issue so? Do the torrential rains discriminate between men and women? Do the men have a different jhuggee over their heads? Isn’t this conceptual sorority of women versus men more a myth than a reality? (Ever since the days the Equal Rights Amendment went down the drain in the U.S. (primarily due to the opposition from women), I have not been convinced that this is a genuine issue. (Of course, I am not a woman, but I also feel that MANY women share that view.))

(3) Your footnote appears to be completely out of place! (I am even beginning to suspect that you put it there (even though it does not belong) so that people would not misinterpret the last part of the poem.) There is no way one can simplify all the complexities, all the vividness, all the various shades of colors, all the moods, all the richness – that the metropolis of Mumbai represents – to a one dimensional life of an exploited prostitute! This is just too simplistic to fly! Also, there are some built-in inconsistencies here – after all it was not the city of Mumbai but the weather gods who forced the caviar people into knee-deep waters – the city only took a beating, and its people only suffered!

(4) I think (I honestly do) that you could have improved its effectiveness (for the reader) a lot by actually toning down certain parts – where the elements of confrontation stand out so starkly that they really distract from the undercurrent of hurting and pain – which I suspect you wish to draw an attention to.

I need to return to the broom and so this is all I can come up with for now. I am sorry if my limited ability to understand some of the more abstract portions of it does not provide this work its full justice. My gut feeling is, this is good stuff, but could have been made more effective. But then again, that adds to its individuality - so who am I to say anything?

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Notes:

[You don’t tell them you like it deep
Your pleasure is not on their minds]
This is an absolute misconception – at least if you are portraying from a prostitute’s perspective. It is well-established that prostitutes do not derive any physical pleasure from their professional acts! They do it strictly for the wages!

[And madames who learned
At your feet
Will give you a kick
A polite pedicured kick
From sheer envy]
Again, the inconsistency sticks out here. Generally speaking, madams (except for the Heidi Fleisch variety) are rarely proud of what they do for a living – it is kind of stretching things by attributing envy among madams – based on (I assume what you are saying is) an age difference. It never happens in real life and does not appear credible to me as a reader.

I can smell lesbianism here.Gosh,save us from lesbianism.

It could explian the ``virgin whore`` bit.

[Lay with me in my bed
Skin to skin
As I trace your forgotten curves
And touch your bones]



Hmmm....Lesbo?

This was long, bitter, harsh and yet had beauty in it. Having said that - maybe it can do with a bit of trimming. For while you were able to sustain the tempo for over 160 lines there were a few bumps on the way.

Dear Farzana:

A lot of emotions and feelings in this poem but you lost me with the footnote. Are you comparing Bombay - okay, Mumbai - to a woman who has ``janam diya mardon kau, mardon ne usse bazaar diya`` etc., etc.?

Hope you survived the ordeal well. Do you live on the ground floor or in an upper storey? I have been in touch with some people in your neighbourhood; it seems that they were affected but not as badly as others, except for those who were stranded on way home.

Ferzana dear! Since you appears to be safe in Bumbai thare, how about writing a little article about Bumbai floods and help promised by Shiv Sena goondahs to come to the aid of people who have become the victims!

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your piece is stiff as a ``on the rocks`` drink - just the way i like it. Do you have an email i could communicate with you on? Got somethings to talk about
Peace,
Pak dyke

#1 & 2...since you have taken the trouble to go to that board, please restrict that discussion there. I am not looking to increase hit rates here...thanks.