HEC Juggernaut and Pervez Hoodbhoy

Re: # 17 by irfanhamid on August 16, 2005 7:29am PT:
``there is nothing wrong with being atheist, it`s a personal choice. But when you are in a country that is as decidedly religious as Pakistan, perhaps not flaunting the fact that you`re an atheist would get you farther, specially if your aims are noble (which I strongly believe his are)``

Faith remains a personal matter, whether it is in God, in a country, in its people, or may be in its landscape. For some people the first version is more important, while for others the later may be more important. Why personal faith should become an inhibition in the way forward? It will be severe injustice to demand that accepting majority`s faith is a prerequisite for someone who has sincere drive to contribute.
Pakistan effectively rejected Salam on the issue of faith, with more loss to whom? Of course Salam also suffered but, be aware that, Pakistan also could not produce another Salam. If the people of this country embrace extremely narrow vision of making a prerequisite of first being faithful then possibly be allowed to move further in its service then many will be opt to leave, more of to the loss of the country of course. Remember that exactly the same narrow vision drove science out of Islamic civilisation centuries earlier. Who is suffering? Again, of course the poor illiterate and ineffective masses of whatever left of the Islamic civilisation. Exactly the same vision had acted to bring the Muslim civilisation to its current state.

re hamidm #16:

That was probably your best post in a long long time.

re irfanhamid #17:

I hope your hopes about the 92 people are realized. Most people who can make a difference find a way to get out of the 5 year bond.

later
-sac

I am sure i read on the chowk that dr hoodbhoy is doing some work in promoting science through t.v or documentary.
BTW Imran khan is appointed VC of bradford university (uk) i believe he is also building a university in mianwali, he seems to be getting a lot of support from pakistani expats in his endeavors.

Dr Hoodbhoy is a very intelligent man, it is safe to say he probably has more grey-matter than anyone else at chowk. But the man courts too much controversy to be effective. Although the idealist in us would like to tear down the system and construct a perfect one, the pragmatist in us should advise us against such a course of action. Evolution is always a more effective tool than revolution.

Furthermore, it is never a great idea to antagonize the sensibilities of the milieu one is in. Dr Hoodbhoy wears his atheism on his sleeve; now, there is nothing wrong with being atheist, it`s a personal choice. But when you are in a country that is as decidedly religious as Pakistan, perhaps not flaunting the fact that you`re an atheist would get you farther, specially if your aims are noble (which I strongly believe his are). The same people who would rile at me for saying that he should hide or tone down his beliefs are perhaps the same who would say that muslims ought to conform when they are in the west, so I can safely say that conformance is a 2-way street.

Coming to HEC. Although I am not a beneficiary of any of its programs, but I know some people who are, and I know some of the programs. Apart from financing research in Pakistan and recruiting faculty from abroad, one of HEC`s main programs is financing Pakistani students` doctoral studies in Europe and other ``low-cost`` educational destinations. Every year, thousands of people apply and hundreds are accepted and sent abroad, they are paid a living stipend, and their fellowships are are paid for by the government of Pakistan. What is asked in return is that they come back and serve in a public or private educational organization in Pakistan for 5 years after completing their studies. I know for a fact that this year there were 92 people sent to France alone under this program, a number of others must also have gone to Germany, Scandinavia, Austria etc. Once this pipeline is full and there is output at the other end, we should see a significant improvement of the dismal higher education landscape of Pakistan.

Regards,
Irfan.

PS: Atheism seems to be a very common trait among scientists, e.g.: Hawking, Einstein, Hardy.

....... apology

......... dr hoodbhoy is doing an excellent job of pointing out the warts of the educational system and keeping the corrupt and incompetent ``academics`` on their toes ....... i was just being facetious when i called him ineffectual ........... of course there are many other good people like the folks in tcf and edhi who are also doing a great job of providing education and other services to the poor, but that does not mean people like dr hoodbhoy, eqbal ahmed, zia mian and asma jehangir are useless - they serve as the conscience of that unconcious nation and sometimes what they ``do`` has a much bigger impact than the ``real`` stuff ...........

........ and he has been working from ``within the system`` for more than two decades when he could have easily been minting money at some top notch us university ............ and he and his friend eqbal ahmed got close with their project to start a world class university ............. maybe his wife`s school will one day make that dream come true ...............

...... it is very easy to sit out here and criticize folks like dr hoodbhoy - i apologize .........

A general comment.

Is there any truth in what Professor Hoodbhoy has asserted visa vis HEC? If his assertions are vacuous, there isn`t much to discuss. However, the interactors should give factual instances to prove that Prof. Hoodbhoy`s assertions are incorrect indeed. In that case, HEC is probably doing a good job and we should encorage it as much as we possibly can by appreciating its efforts and contributions. But if there is some truth in what Prof. Hoodbhoy has written about HEC, we should stop criticizing him and his persona. I haven`t seen anything in print from the HEC administration saying plainly that Prof. Hoodbhoy`s charges are wrong; on the other hand, they have implied that they are misdirected. HEC`s stance is defensive. Those who are knowledgable among the Chowk readers about HEC should step forward and contribute.

Nobody has said so far on this board that HEC is doing a good job. Either the interactors are simply unaware of HEC`s performance or else they are too much betaken with criticizing Prof. Hoodbhoy because he is an easy target. Let us not shoot the messenger.

If there are reasons to appreciate HEC`s performance, those who have knowledge about it should not be stingy in appreciating it. As a starter, examples can perhaps be given of those who were beneficiaries of HEC`s bounty and after completing their research projects or Ph.D`s, some body should tell us, what good they are doing in return. Wishing well,

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 12 by Romair on August 15, 2005 1:27pm PT.
I am sure there is misunderstanding here. I think the article by Hoodbhoy was intended as a contribution towards healthy debate and criticism on HEC`s work. Such tradition, unfortunately, does not exist in Pakistan. It is not at all the question of gaining popularity and fame by writing critical essays and I don`t think it is Hoodbhoy`s motivation. No body denies the contributions and work of many silent workers in Pakistan, neither Hoodbhoy`s articles are meant for their denial. I think Hoodbhoy`s contribution is that he wants to see a critical and rational debate on many academic, social and political issues, a tradition of which does not exist in current system and culture of Pakistan. It is entirely misleading to interpret his efforts to introduce a culture of healthy dialogue and criticism just as an attempt to gain popularity and fame. Healthy criticism is never meant to deny constructive achievements of others. It is a self-correcting mechanism that maintains and ensures quality and efficiency in the functioning of the system. Thousands of silent sincere workers are indeed trying to build Pakistan from within and Hoodbhoy`s criticism does not deny that. What is missing in our system, however, is the tradition of accountability, critical analysis and debate and this is what Hoodbhoy is trying to introduce.

#12 by Romair on August 15, 2005 1:27pm PT


I can sit here and critique Pakistan`s IT industry the whole day and become a hero.


Yes please....toss out some gems like how you advise CIO/VP types on setting up their IT departments...

I could use a few laughs on a monday...

viewer #10: ``Do you want to say that Hoodbhoy is somehow not ``working within`` the system in spite of the fact that since early 1970s he remains a full-time faculty member of the Physics Department of Quaid-i-Azam University?``

There are a lot of people in Pakistan who have been working in Pakistan, for thirty years. Including most of my family. And most of the families of most Pakistanis. In fact 99% of the Pakistanis are doing so. So I am not sure if being a full-time employee in Pakistan is a big deal. I was one for close to 10 years. I don`t think I deserve a medal for that..........

Everyone has the right to criticize. However, I think there needs to be a certain group that actually builds and constructs. They deserve the attention. There are a lot of people doing that. And they do it without any personal recognition or noterioty. I mentioned some in the list in the last reply........

No one is doubting the fact that Hoodbhoy is working in Pakistan. But the members of HEC etc. are also working in Pakistan. Hoodbhoy and HEC etc. are all working for govt. insitutions. I am not sure, but isn`t Q-e-A University a govt. run university? If they all spend their whole time critiquing each other`s govt. institution, who is ever going to do anything?

I can sit here and critique Pakistan`s IT industry the whole day and become a hero. Or I can try to go do something about it. I can sit and critique the lack of medical facilities. Or I can go build a hospital.

The later requires the ability to work within a corrupt and inefficient system. The former simply requires the ability to write newspaper articles. I would personally be far more impressed with Hoodbhoy if he were known more for his constructive achievements, then for his critiques.

This does not mean, people should not critique. I am all in favor of that. But the people who should get most of the attention and notice should be the ones who are running the free hospitals and the charities and free schools etc. One`s claim to fame should never be as a critic. It should be as a doer.........At least in my opinion.

I get the feeling Hoodbhoy is far more known as a critic than as a doer...........Everytime I see him or read something by him, it is a critique of someone who is trying to do something constructive. Perhaps it is just a coincidence.........

Re: #6 by Urstruly on August 15, 2005 8:45am PT
``I see that dr. hoodbhoy has no phds enrolled with him. He is not even a memeber of any research facility/lab. I want to know what good his degree from MIT has done for Pakistan academically.``

Dr. Hoodbhoy`s distinguished academic services to the Physics Department at Quaid-i-Azam University are beyond any doubt. The list starts from bringing Pakistan on the world map of high-energy particle physics in early years to attacting funds from international scientific organizations to support Pakistani research students in later years. He may not be registering a PhD student presently but he supervised to completion at least four PhDs students. His deep affiliation and sincerity to the University and non-academic services made to it are well-known. These include, for example, saving the University`s land from corrupt political as well as University`s own officials.

Re: # 9
``Hoodbhoy lacks a crucial quality, due to which he, though well-intentioned, will not be too successful: He needs to learn the tricks and trades of working within a system, to change it. Rather than constantly trying to criticise the system.``

Do you want to say that Hoodbhoy is somehow not ``working within`` the system in spite of the fact that since early 1970s he remains a full-time faculty member of the Physics Department of Quaid-i-Azam University? Do you want to say that somehow working within a system mysteriously means not criticising it ever? Hoodbhoy has pointed out serious shortcomings on the behalf of HEC and according to you by doing that he somehow suddenly ``does not work`` within the system. This is Pakistani mind, instead of addressing the issues that Hoodbhoy wants to raise and starting a constructive debate we immediately revert to personal attacks. Hoodbhoy is an asset for Pakistan because he has got the courage to criticise the system while working within it.

Hamidm mian #7: Hoodbhoy lacks a crucial quality, due to which he, though well-intentioned, will not be too successful: He needs to learn the tricks and trades of working within a system, to change it. Rather than constantly trying to criticize the system. Nothing wrong with the later, but one does not need an MIT Ph.D to do that. It is the former that gets the job done. If one reaches the stage where the only thing one is know for, is one`s vocal activism, then I am afraid all the effort has gone to waste........

There are people who have worked within the system and gotten things done. Edhi runs a gigantic welfare organization, from within the system. Imran Khan built a cancer hospital and is planning another one. Dr. Hamid turned around large portions of Orangi. A group of industrialists set up LUMS. Another group set up the very well-organized Citizens Foundation.....There are so many more...All within the system.......

I am involved with a students charity in Pakistan. Through it, I have gotten to see some of the real Pakistan. I have been surprised to see how philanthrapic Pakistan`s industrial class is. They may not pay taxes, but they donate money a lot. The charity has never been short of funding. As well as how energitic the poor student community is. It is enough to put one`s faith in Pakistan........

Can you name the team that is running Citizen`s Foundation? Can you name the team that is running Imran Khan`s cancer hospital? Can you name the team that is running Edhi Foundation? Can you name the team that is running Orangi Pilot Project? Are they every on TV or in the news?

I doubt you can name them. Neither can I. The people who do real work, do so behind the scenes, without any noterioty. This is why I think, perhaps, Hoodbhoy and Asma et al are too caught up in their limelight and celebarity status. Not to mention too caught up in campaigning against the mullahs, all the time.

If they truly want to change something, they would be a lot better off, keeping a low profile and doing constructive work, from inside the system. There are people who will raise a lot of noise about the govt. not making Cancer hospitals. Every society needs a bit of that. However, the real people are the ones who don`t waste their time complaining, but actually go out and build the Cancer hospital...........

Re: # 7

Hamidm2 - I wish there was a way to get Hoodbhoy to leave the benevolent land and embrace Starbucks. We would have so much fun out here, talking about science and other irreverent things BUT a little bird tells me that he has no intention to do that. The fool that he is.

this is what i said about dr hoodbhoy and reema five years ago - i am afraid it is still true :

.......... i don`t mean to be disrespectful, but dr. hoodbhoy is another example of good intentions that get nowhere ......... i hear a lot about him in the drawing rooms of pindi and islamabad ....`` well meaning chap - but a little diwana, dharia and maghrib-zada, quite ineffectual - what a waste`` .......... while he continues to submit his tales of lamentation to the news and the chowk, which between them get about a few thousand convent-educated readers, the taliban and the jamaat are busy building madrassas and winning the jihad for the minds of the young ................ hate to sound like an alarmist, but i am sure dr. hoodbhoy will soon be joining us at starbuck`s to deplore the mullah-led take over of pakistan .......... asma jehangir will probably be burned at the stake to be beatified by a pope in the year 3000 ..... i only hope that reema and neeli make it to brooklyn where we can continue the traditions of hira mandi ..........

I see that dr. hoodbhoy has no phds enrolled with him. He is not even a memeber of any research facility/lab. I want to know what good his degree from MIT has done for Pakistan academically.

Here are some comments in other places.

1/ These letters (2) were published on Dawn - http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/02/letted.htm#1

2/ Here is what Cowasjee had to say on this ...
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20050306.htm

There is no doubt that some very qualified and well intentioned people are in the HEC - it is time that the displayed some character.

I think the HEC is at the point where if it doesnt clean its shop they could become just another useless government organization.