HEC Juggernaut and Pervez Hoodbhoy

Aslam644 #18: There are a lot of people doing a lot of good stuff in Pakistan. If you aren`t already involved in the philanthropic and charity circles of Pakistan, in some capacity, I would suggest you do so. You will then see a Pakistan that will open anyone’s eyes. People always critique my optimism on Pakistan, as if it is misguided. It actually has a lot of basis in reality, in my opinion……..

Pakistan is rated 142 on the HDI index. It is rated below many South Asian countries. Palestine Liberation Org areas are ranked 102. Yet walk around Pakistan and there are a couple of things you will not see. You will not see people going hungry. And you will not see people sleeping on the street. Yet to go countries that are ranked higher than Pakistan, with much stronger financial statistics for their govts, you will see both these things.

Have you ever wondered why?

I am convinced that while Pakistanis may not pay taxes, they give a lot under philanthropy. And it stretches from the poorest of Pakistanis to the wealthiest of industrialists. Now that I have a bit of experience in the area, I am amazed at how much these wealthy businessmen, like Memon families etc, give to charity.

Edhi can stand on a street corner and women will come and throw their jewelry at his feet. He now even has a center than looks after stray donkeys. He has airplane(s). All run by volunteers with a minimum of staff. There are thousands of madrassahs running in Pakistan. Setting aside their religious/non religious credentials, they do feed and house hundreds of thousands to perhaps over a million kids, without any money from the govt. Everyday people donate to them, and give them food etc……..Places like Data Darbar etc. have langars of donated food for the poor.......

I heard Imran Khan speak once. He said, a month before the finish date of his cancer hospital, his team ran out of money. In one month, they needed to collect some gigantic amount ($4 million or 400k ?). Can’t remember the exact figure. He said he decided on drastic measures. He rented a truck, put a large box in the back and drove to the poor parts of Pakistan. Covering one city a day. Within, one month, he had all the money collected, primarily in donations of small amounts from poor people……..People in far off NWFP etc. donated for a hospital in Lahore……

Imran is, I think, now going to build one in Karachi. And I am 200%, people will donate like crazy, again………

I have nothing against Hoodbhoy. More power to him. He is doing a hell of a lot more for Pakistan than I am now (though in my previous career, I would like to think I was doing as much as him). My only argument is that there are a lot of people doing a lot of positive activism, who don’t get much of the similar limelight, because they keep a low profile………which in my opinion is the way to go……..

Re: # 23
#23 by irfanhamid on August 16, 2005 11:40am PT
Agreed mostly your comment about Salam.
Scientists hardly preach their own lack of faith; however, such conclusions are usually unjustifiably drawn when they initiate a discussion about the conflict between reason and faith. An argument to use reason is taken as an attack on faith of the listening faithful.

``the government has a right to enforce its own wish if they feel it is required`` I beg to disagree. Such right can not be given solely because the government represents majority`s view. I also disagree with French government`s decision. Everyone has a right to practice his/her religion and banning of head scarfs is unjustified.

``does that mean that the most effective way to bring about a change in American public opinion is to go there and start parading around Manhattan wearing a ``Down with Imperialist America`` t-shirt?`` Which scientists have tried to announce their faiths (or its absence) in such fashion? I certainly know that Hoodbhoy has never done that, neither Salam who stoutly practised his religion all his life.

``Israelis would never tolerate an Aryan supremacist living among them, for understandable reasons`` It is invalid comparison. Liberty to live without faith is not, in any sense, the same as giving a supreme status to the absence of faith.

Re: # 23

irfan,

...... i don`t think dr hoodbhoy goes around proclaiming and defending atheism, but somehow he has earned the reputation and his detractors do not loose any opportunity to use it to discredit him ........... as a matter of fact, i don`t think i have ever heard him talk about this personal beliefs and i don`t believe he has ever written about them ............ but as we all know, labels do matter ...........

...... in any case, even though his religion has nothing to do with his views on the hec, it does explain why he doesn`t have too many friends and defenders in pakistan`s religiously charged academia .............

For those who critisize his role as someone who, supposedly, only critisizes all I can say is that even if it were true, he is doing a good job at it. An end result might be that HEC might start some sort of audit.

And why are Hoodbhoy`s religious beliefs even being discussed?

For those who critisize his role as someone who, supposedly, only critisizes all I can say is that even if it were true, he is doing a good job at it. An end result might be that HEC might start some sort of audit.

And why are Hoodbhoy`s religious beliefs even being discussed?

Re: # 20 (Viewer),

Don`t shoot the messenger. Like I said, I don`t think there should be any problem with a person being an atheist, but there IS.

1) In France, the government does not allow civil servants to wear headscarves at work; although I find this slightly oppressive, but I still think that the government has a right to enforce its own wish if they feel it is required. Nowhere in my post did I say that Dr Hoodbhoy should not BE an atheist, only that he tone it down a bit.

2) I believe that American foreign policy is wrong, but does that mean that the most effective way to bring about a change in American public opinion is to go there and start parading around Manhattan wearing a ``Down with Imperialist America`` t-shirt? NO.

3) Israelis would never tolerate an Aryan supremacist living among them, for understandable reasons.

The three examples I gave are progressively increasing in severity, and I`m sure everyone would conclude that the ``establishment`` being irritated would be justified in each. I live in a largely secular country, I have atheist friends, yet I never try to preach God to them. Does that mean I lose my faith? No. Similarly, if the good physicist does not preach or promote or advertise his atheism, does that make him less of an atheist? I don`t think so.

Regards,
Irfan.

PS: I think that our treatment of Dr Abdus-Salam was probably the worst example of religious persecution since the harassment of Galileo by the Catholic church. In the end, it was Pakistan that lost by a large margin, not Salam. Men like Salam will never want for nations that lay claim to him, but he will want for the nation that SHOULD have embraced him. The nobility of the man is that he did not reject Pakistan to the very end.

Re: # 21
hamidm2,
This is what exactly needs to be changed, instead of requiring that scientists trying to make headway should become faithful Muslims first. The conflict between scientific inquiry and faith is very old and most scientists find it impossible to reconcile the two. If scientific inquiry is to be established as an institution then its norms must be accepted and the mentioned conflict must be taken into account and scientist should be left alone in matters of faith. The other option of requiring scientists to become faithful first, before their services could be recognised, only leads to the phenomenon of ``Islamic science`` whose practitioners keep themselves busy with justifying science from religion, or sometimes the other way round. The point is that the phenomenon leads to immediate decline of real practice of science, and most often accompanies the exodus of scientist. Wherever real science is practised and gives fruitful results no interference is made in scientists` personal faiths. My point is that it is the society that should accept science and its practitioners by broadening it vision and looking at the history of the conflict between reason and religion, instead of requiring the practitioners to accept the faiths of the society before being accredited. The later leads to only the second rate practitioners left to derive science from religion or otherwise, as happened in the Lahore conference mentioned by Amer Iqbal.

Re: # 20

viewer,

......... agreed ..... but in a place like pakistan it is awfully difficult to make any headway if you are labelled a ``dharia`` or a ``murtad`` or a ``munafiq``, regardless of how brilliant and sincere you are............ even the ``enlightened moderates`` are a little wary of associating with you - no one wants to run the risk ........... the unwashed masses and their fetid leaders have no problem with cutting off their nose to spite their face .......

Re: # 17 by irfanhamid on August 16, 2005 7:29am PT:
``there is nothing wrong with being atheist, it`s a personal choice. But when you are in a country that is as decidedly religious as Pakistan, perhaps not flaunting the fact that you`re an atheist would get you farther, specially if your aims are noble (which I strongly believe his are)``

Faith remains a personal matter, whether it is in God, in a country, in its people, or may be in its landscape. For some people the first version is more important, while for others the later may be more important. Why personal faith should become an inhibition in the way forward? It will be severe injustice to demand that accepting majority`s faith is a prerequisite for someone who has sincere drive to contribute.
Pakistan effectively rejected Salam on the issue of faith, with more loss to whom? Of course Salam also suffered but, be aware that, Pakistan also could not produce another Salam. If the people of this country embrace extremely narrow vision of making a prerequisite of first being faithful then possibly be allowed to move further in its service then many will be opt to leave, more of to the loss of the country of course. Remember that exactly the same narrow vision drove science out of Islamic civilisation centuries earlier. Who is suffering? Again, of course the poor illiterate and ineffective masses of whatever left of the Islamic civilisation. Exactly the same vision had acted to bring the Muslim civilisation to its current state.

re hamidm #16:

That was probably your best post in a long long time.

re irfanhamid #17:

I hope your hopes about the 92 people are realized. Most people who can make a difference find a way to get out of the 5 year bond.

later
-sac

I am sure i read on the chowk that dr hoodbhoy is doing some work in promoting science through t.v or documentary.
BTW Imran khan is appointed VC of bradford university (uk) i believe he is also building a university in mianwali, he seems to be getting a lot of support from pakistani expats in his endeavors.

Dr Hoodbhoy is a very intelligent man, it is safe to say he probably has more grey-matter than anyone else at chowk. But the man courts too much controversy to be effective. Although the idealist in us would like to tear down the system and construct a perfect one, the pragmatist in us should advise us against such a course of action. Evolution is always a more effective tool than revolution.

Furthermore, it is never a great idea to antagonize the sensibilities of the milieu one is in. Dr Hoodbhoy wears his atheism on his sleeve; now, there is nothing wrong with being atheist, it`s a personal choice. But when you are in a country that is as decidedly religious as Pakistan, perhaps not flaunting the fact that you`re an atheist would get you farther, specially if your aims are noble (which I strongly believe his are). The same people who would rile at me for saying that he should hide or tone down his beliefs are perhaps the same who would say that muslims ought to conform when they are in the west, so I can safely say that conformance is a 2-way street.

Coming to HEC. Although I am not a beneficiary of any of its programs, but I know some people who are, and I know some of the programs. Apart from financing research in Pakistan and recruiting faculty from abroad, one of HEC`s main programs is financing Pakistani students` doctoral studies in Europe and other ``low-cost`` educational destinations. Every year, thousands of people apply and hundreds are accepted and sent abroad, they are paid a living stipend, and their fellowships are are paid for by the government of Pakistan. What is asked in return is that they come back and serve in a public or private educational organization in Pakistan for 5 years after completing their studies. I know for a fact that this year there were 92 people sent to France alone under this program, a number of others must also have gone to Germany, Scandinavia, Austria etc. Once this pipeline is full and there is output at the other end, we should see a significant improvement of the dismal higher education landscape of Pakistan.

Regards,
Irfan.

PS: Atheism seems to be a very common trait among scientists, e.g.: Hawking, Einstein, Hardy.

....... apology

......... dr hoodbhoy is doing an excellent job of pointing out the warts of the educational system and keeping the corrupt and incompetent ``academics`` on their toes ....... i was just being facetious when i called him ineffectual ........... of course there are many other good people like the folks in tcf and edhi who are also doing a great job of providing education and other services to the poor, but that does not mean people like dr hoodbhoy, eqbal ahmed, zia mian and asma jehangir are useless - they serve as the conscience of that unconcious nation and sometimes what they ``do`` has a much bigger impact than the ``real`` stuff ...........

........ and he has been working from ``within the system`` for more than two decades when he could have easily been minting money at some top notch us university ............ and he and his friend eqbal ahmed got close with their project to start a world class university ............. maybe his wife`s school will one day make that dream come true ...............

...... it is very easy to sit out here and criticize folks like dr hoodbhoy - i apologize .........

A general comment.

Is there any truth in what Professor Hoodbhoy has asserted visa vis HEC? If his assertions are vacuous, there isn`t much to discuss. However, the interactors should give factual instances to prove that Prof. Hoodbhoy`s assertions are incorrect indeed. In that case, HEC is probably doing a good job and we should encorage it as much as we possibly can by appreciating its efforts and contributions. But if there is some truth in what Prof. Hoodbhoy has written about HEC, we should stop criticizing him and his persona. I haven`t seen anything in print from the HEC administration saying plainly that Prof. Hoodbhoy`s charges are wrong; on the other hand, they have implied that they are misdirected. HEC`s stance is defensive. Those who are knowledgable among the Chowk readers about HEC should step forward and contribute.

Nobody has said so far on this board that HEC is doing a good job. Either the interactors are simply unaware of HEC`s performance or else they are too much betaken with criticizing Prof. Hoodbhoy because he is an easy target. Let us not shoot the messenger.

If there are reasons to appreciate HEC`s performance, those who have knowledge about it should not be stingy in appreciating it. As a starter, examples can perhaps be given of those who were beneficiaries of HEC`s bounty and after completing their research projects or Ph.D`s, some body should tell us, what good they are doing in return. Wishing well,

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 12 by Romair on August 15, 2005 1:27pm PT.
I am sure there is misunderstanding here. I think the article by Hoodbhoy was intended as a contribution towards healthy debate and criticism on HEC`s work. Such tradition, unfortunately, does not exist in Pakistan. It is not at all the question of gaining popularity and fame by writing critical essays and I don`t think it is Hoodbhoy`s motivation. No body denies the contributions and work of many silent workers in Pakistan, neither Hoodbhoy`s articles are meant for their denial. I think Hoodbhoy`s contribution is that he wants to see a critical and rational debate on many academic, social and political issues, a tradition of which does not exist in current system and culture of Pakistan. It is entirely misleading to interpret his efforts to introduce a culture of healthy dialogue and criticism just as an attempt to gain popularity and fame. Healthy criticism is never meant to deny constructive achievements of others. It is a self-correcting mechanism that maintains and ensures quality and efficiency in the functioning of the system. Thousands of silent sincere workers are indeed trying to build Pakistan from within and Hoodbhoy`s criticism does not deny that. What is missing in our system, however, is the tradition of accountability, critical analysis and debate and this is what Hoodbhoy is trying to introduce.

#12 by Romair on August 15, 2005 1:27pm PT


I can sit here and critique Pakistan`s IT industry the whole day and become a hero.


Yes please....toss out some gems like how you advise CIO/VP types on setting up their IT departments...

I could use a few laughs on a monday...