HEC Juggernaut and Pervez Hoodbhoy

Pakistan (CIA factbook 2005):

Median age: 19.58 years
Population growth: 2.03%

Total fertility rate:
4.14 children born/woman

Conclusion:
There is ``demographic bulge`` of young men/women coming into working age in Pakistan.
are the jobs there?

(yes, the same is true of a lesser extent in India as well)

romair mian,

...... ``You will not see people going hungry`` ........... uh ?......which pakistan are you talking about ? ........ go to the tandoors on the back side of peshawar more or aabpara at dinner time and take a look around .............. dozens of people with little barefoot kids in tow sit around like vultures and rush people who come there every day to distribute roti - mind you, just plain old roti, no salan or biryani !........... okay, you might say they are afghanis - but they all have natiional id cards ! ........ in case you don`t know, a roti is now 5 rupees and a day laborer is lucky if he can find work for a 100 rupees a day ........ just go down to hathi chowk to pick up a day laborer (who provides his own ganti and shovel) and you will be mobbed by a crowd of miserable starving creatures worried about the next roti (not meal) ............... go there at about six and stay there till the shops open at about nine, and see how many of them actually find work - the rest go hungry

............ it is comments like this that prove that you are out completely of touch with reality and clueless.........

Re: # 32
I mean to say that exactly the same reasoning, that people use to find answers from Quran to the scientific questions, can also be used to, for example, derive all the axioms of quantum mechanics from writings (and perhaps sayings) of Khwaja Mir Dard. After they hear of some scientific discovery the same people come running with claims that Quran had already predicted it in some of its verse. The hollowness of such claims is self-apparent from the simple fact that these people come forward always AFTER listening (or may be learning its rudiments) to the news of the discovery and never BEFORE. I have never heard of an example where these people could have come forward with a prediction of some scientific value made in advance than the scientists themselves.

Re: # 32
Such a suggestion may be of interest but will be similar in spirit to the case of someone trying to deduce Maxwell`s field equations from the kalam of Mir Taqi Mir, or may be deriving the sensitivities of love from Newton`s Principia.

There was another article by Prof. Hoodbhoy where he put forward some very interesting questions http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000677&channel=university%20ave

I have put down some of these questions. Could anybody suggest how some people believe the answers to these questions can be found from the Quran?

1. NEW PLANETS? There is exciting new evidence of planets that lie far outside the solar system. How were these discovered and what is the possibility of life in other parts of the universe?

2. CRIME IN THE GENES. Genetic evidence now points to individuals inheriting tendencies towards violent and anti-social behaviour. But which influences our behaviour more - nature or nurture?

3. MAKING ANTIMATTER. The prediction that anti-matter exists is now confirmed. But why is there so little of anti-matter in the universe? Recently anti-hydrogen has also been produced. How, and why could this be revolutionary?
...
5. THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING. The quest for the ultimate structure of matter may be nearing an end with recent advances in this area. We are now being forced to admit that our world may not be simply 4-dimensional but 10-dimensional. The main ideas and still open questions will be presented.

6. CAN COMPUTERS THINK? Artificial intelligence programs running on computers come close to simulating human beings. How and in what sense? Does this mean that humans are replaceable?
...
8. MENTAL ILLNESS. Exorcism and torture are widely used even today in Pakistan to attack diseases of the mind. But mental illness may actually be no different from ailments of the body, and modern science has discovered certain cures via therapy and special drugs.

9. THE ARROW OF TIME. Humans perceive time as an eternally forward flowing river. But the laws of physics are equally true for the forward and backward flow of time. So what lies behind our perception? Is travel into the past possible?

Doing charity work is commendable. And so is the work for educational reform. I haven`t
closely researched the field but I think Prof, Hoodbhoy is probably the first whistle-blower on HEC and I fail to see that he is doing it for self-aggrandizement or for some other ulterior motive.

There are countless self-serving people who are dying to get a medal from the government of Pakistan; he is the one, on the other hand, who did not accept it to make a point. Seeking some recognition and publicity is a human weakness and if he indulges it it occasionally, it should not throw overboard all the good work that he is doing.

I am glad to see that Amer Iqbal has provided support to the cause that Prof. Hoodbhoy initiated. If the HEC administration is somehow guilty of mismanaging the HEC, some other author(s) should also come forward to write unbiased and well-researched articles on this issue. This is a very important issue of national importance.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 27 (Viewer),

WARNING: Off-topic.

You say ``Scientists hardly preach their own lack of faith``. There are numerous examples of scientists who have publicly and vociferously challenged the existance of God. Stephen Hawking is a vocal advocate of atheism, having discussed it with celebrities, one of his publications states ``there is no place for a Creator``. Hardy was a famous mathematician at the beginning of the 20th century, one of his (publicly stated) life goals was to prove mathematically that God does not exist, this was preceded only by the proof of the Reimann Hypothesis in his list of TODO things. In fact, the only believer among top-tier scientists that I have read about is Sir Isaac of the Newton`s Laws of Gravitation, but suffice it to say that at the time science was too nascent and religious dogma too well entrenched for him to have thought otherwise. Don`t get me wrong, this is not at all a condemnation of scientists. Matter of fact, I would love nothing more than to have enough faith to dismiss their arguments and convince myself of God`s existance, or have enough horse-power between my temples to convince myself, and others, of God`s inexistance. I guess this is the burden of physicists (and to some extent mathematicians) insofar as they are privy to the intricate workings of the universe and thus have questions vexing them far deeper than those any of us could conjure up.

You disagree with my statement of the government being justified in imposing things such as headscarves. Well, that`s your opinion, and it`s your right to have one different from mine, and vice versa.

As for the tshirt and Aryan supremacists in Israel, they were simply hypothetical examples of vocal minority viewpoints being foisted upon an orthodoxy that does not tolerate them, much like Dr Hoodbhoy and his atheism is not tolerated gracefully by the Islamic orthodoxy of Pakistani society (I did state that the examples were progressively more extreme).

Regards,
Irfan.

Re: # 28
romair
I agree there are a lot of positive things taking place in pakistan, but the thing is HEC budget has increased by 1200% probably unprecedented in the world, thats too much too fast, there is bound to be corruption and mismanagement.

IMO increased funding should have been gradual and better managed, with more resouces devoted to primary and secondary sectors of education.

Aslam644 #18: There are a lot of people doing a lot of good stuff in Pakistan. If you aren`t already involved in the philanthropic and charity circles of Pakistan, in some capacity, I would suggest you do so. You will then see a Pakistan that will open anyone’s eyes. People always critique my optimism on Pakistan, as if it is misguided. It actually has a lot of basis in reality, in my opinion……..

Pakistan is rated 142 on the HDI index. It is rated below many South Asian countries. Palestine Liberation Org areas are ranked 102. Yet walk around Pakistan and there are a couple of things you will not see. You will not see people going hungry. And you will not see people sleeping on the street. Yet to go countries that are ranked higher than Pakistan, with much stronger financial statistics for their govts, you will see both these things.

Have you ever wondered why?

I am convinced that while Pakistanis may not pay taxes, they give a lot under philanthropy. And it stretches from the poorest of Pakistanis to the wealthiest of industrialists. Now that I have a bit of experience in the area, I am amazed at how much these wealthy businessmen, like Memon families etc, give to charity.

Edhi can stand on a street corner and women will come and throw their jewelry at his feet. He now even has a center than looks after stray donkeys. He has airplane(s). All run by volunteers with a minimum of staff. There are thousands of madrassahs running in Pakistan. Setting aside their religious/non religious credentials, they do feed and house hundreds of thousands to perhaps over a million kids, without any money from the govt. Everyday people donate to them, and give them food etc……..Places like Data Darbar etc. have langars of donated food for the poor.......

I heard Imran Khan speak once. He said, a month before the finish date of his cancer hospital, his team ran out of money. In one month, they needed to collect some gigantic amount ($4 million or 400k ?). Can’t remember the exact figure. He said he decided on drastic measures. He rented a truck, put a large box in the back and drove to the poor parts of Pakistan. Covering one city a day. Within, one month, he had all the money collected, primarily in donations of small amounts from poor people……..People in far off NWFP etc. donated for a hospital in Lahore……

Imran is, I think, now going to build one in Karachi. And I am 200%, people will donate like crazy, again………

I have nothing against Hoodbhoy. More power to him. He is doing a hell of a lot more for Pakistan than I am now (though in my previous career, I would like to think I was doing as much as him). My only argument is that there are a lot of people doing a lot of positive activism, who don’t get much of the similar limelight, because they keep a low profile………which in my opinion is the way to go……..

Re: # 23
#23 by irfanhamid on August 16, 2005 11:40am PT
Agreed mostly your comment about Salam.
Scientists hardly preach their own lack of faith; however, such conclusions are usually unjustifiably drawn when they initiate a discussion about the conflict between reason and faith. An argument to use reason is taken as an attack on faith of the listening faithful.

``the government has a right to enforce its own wish if they feel it is required`` I beg to disagree. Such right can not be given solely because the government represents majority`s view. I also disagree with French government`s decision. Everyone has a right to practice his/her religion and banning of head scarfs is unjustified.

``does that mean that the most effective way to bring about a change in American public opinion is to go there and start parading around Manhattan wearing a ``Down with Imperialist America`` t-shirt?`` Which scientists have tried to announce their faiths (or its absence) in such fashion? I certainly know that Hoodbhoy has never done that, neither Salam who stoutly practised his religion all his life.

``Israelis would never tolerate an Aryan supremacist living among them, for understandable reasons`` It is invalid comparison. Liberty to live without faith is not, in any sense, the same as giving a supreme status to the absence of faith.

Re: # 23

irfan,

...... i don`t think dr hoodbhoy goes around proclaiming and defending atheism, but somehow he has earned the reputation and his detractors do not loose any opportunity to use it to discredit him ........... as a matter of fact, i don`t think i have ever heard him talk about this personal beliefs and i don`t believe he has ever written about them ............ but as we all know, labels do matter ...........

...... in any case, even though his religion has nothing to do with his views on the hec, it does explain why he doesn`t have too many friends and defenders in pakistan`s religiously charged academia .............

For those who critisize his role as someone who, supposedly, only critisizes all I can say is that even if it were true, he is doing a good job at it. An end result might be that HEC might start some sort of audit.

And why are Hoodbhoy`s religious beliefs even being discussed?

For those who critisize his role as someone who, supposedly, only critisizes all I can say is that even if it were true, he is doing a good job at it. An end result might be that HEC might start some sort of audit.

And why are Hoodbhoy`s religious beliefs even being discussed?

Re: # 20 (Viewer),

Don`t shoot the messenger. Like I said, I don`t think there should be any problem with a person being an atheist, but there IS.

1) In France, the government does not allow civil servants to wear headscarves at work; although I find this slightly oppressive, but I still think that the government has a right to enforce its own wish if they feel it is required. Nowhere in my post did I say that Dr Hoodbhoy should not BE an atheist, only that he tone it down a bit.

2) I believe that American foreign policy is wrong, but does that mean that the most effective way to bring about a change in American public opinion is to go there and start parading around Manhattan wearing a ``Down with Imperialist America`` t-shirt? NO.

3) Israelis would never tolerate an Aryan supremacist living among them, for understandable reasons.

The three examples I gave are progressively increasing in severity, and I`m sure everyone would conclude that the ``establishment`` being irritated would be justified in each. I live in a largely secular country, I have atheist friends, yet I never try to preach God to them. Does that mean I lose my faith? No. Similarly, if the good physicist does not preach or promote or advertise his atheism, does that make him less of an atheist? I don`t think so.

Regards,
Irfan.

PS: I think that our treatment of Dr Abdus-Salam was probably the worst example of religious persecution since the harassment of Galileo by the Catholic church. In the end, it was Pakistan that lost by a large margin, not Salam. Men like Salam will never want for nations that lay claim to him, but he will want for the nation that SHOULD have embraced him. The nobility of the man is that he did not reject Pakistan to the very end.

Re: # 21
hamidm2,
This is what exactly needs to be changed, instead of requiring that scientists trying to make headway should become faithful Muslims first. The conflict between scientific inquiry and faith is very old and most scientists find it impossible to reconcile the two. If scientific inquiry is to be established as an institution then its norms must be accepted and the mentioned conflict must be taken into account and scientist should be left alone in matters of faith. The other option of requiring scientists to become faithful first, before their services could be recognised, only leads to the phenomenon of ``Islamic science`` whose practitioners keep themselves busy with justifying science from religion, or sometimes the other way round. The point is that the phenomenon leads to immediate decline of real practice of science, and most often accompanies the exodus of scientist. Wherever real science is practised and gives fruitful results no interference is made in scientists` personal faiths. My point is that it is the society that should accept science and its practitioners by broadening it vision and looking at the history of the conflict between reason and religion, instead of requiring the practitioners to accept the faiths of the society before being accredited. The later leads to only the second rate practitioners left to derive science from religion or otherwise, as happened in the Lahore conference mentioned by Amer Iqbal.

Re: # 20

viewer,

......... agreed ..... but in a place like pakistan it is awfully difficult to make any headway if you are labelled a ``dharia`` or a ``murtad`` or a ``munafiq``, regardless of how brilliant and sincere you are............ even the ``enlightened moderates`` are a little wary of associating with you - no one wants to run the risk ........... the unwashed masses and their fetid leaders have no problem with cutting off their nose to spite their face .......

Re: # 17 by irfanhamid on August 16, 2005 7:29am PT:
``there is nothing wrong with being atheist, it`s a personal choice. But when you are in a country that is as decidedly religious as Pakistan, perhaps not flaunting the fact that you`re an atheist would get you farther, specially if your aims are noble (which I strongly believe his are)``

Faith remains a personal matter, whether it is in God, in a country, in its people, or may be in its landscape. For some people the first version is more important, while for others the later may be more important. Why personal faith should become an inhibition in the way forward? It will be severe injustice to demand that accepting majority`s faith is a prerequisite for someone who has sincere drive to contribute.
Pakistan effectively rejected Salam on the issue of faith, with more loss to whom? Of course Salam also suffered but, be aware that, Pakistan also could not produce another Salam. If the people of this country embrace extremely narrow vision of making a prerequisite of first being faithful then possibly be allowed to move further in its service then many will be opt to leave, more of to the loss of the country of course. Remember that exactly the same narrow vision drove science out of Islamic civilisation centuries earlier. Who is suffering? Again, of course the poor illiterate and ineffective masses of whatever left of the Islamic civilisation. Exactly the same vision had acted to bring the Muslim civilisation to its current state.

re hamidm #16:

That was probably your best post in a long long time.

re irfanhamid #17:

I hope your hopes about the 92 people are realized. Most people who can make a difference find a way to get out of the 5 year bond.

later
-sac

I am sure i read on the chowk that dr hoodbhoy is doing some work in promoting science through t.v or documentary.
BTW Imran khan is appointed VC of bradford university (uk) i believe he is also building a university in mianwali, he seems to be getting a lot of support from pakistani expats in his endeavors.

Dr Hoodbhoy is a very intelligent man, it is safe to say he probably has more grey-matter than anyone else at chowk. But the man courts too much controversy to be effective. Although the idealist in us would like to tear down the system and construct a perfect one, the pragmatist in us should advise us against such a course of action. Evolution is always a more effective tool than revolution.

Furthermore, it is never a great idea to antagonize the sensibilities of the milieu one is in. Dr Hoodbhoy wears his atheism on his sleeve; now, there is nothing wrong with being atheist, it`s a personal choice. But when you are in a country that is as decidedly religious as Pakistan, perhaps not flaunting the fact that you`re an atheist would get you farther, specially if your aims are noble (which I strongly believe his are). The same people who would rile at me for saying that he should hide or tone down his beliefs are perhaps the same who would say that muslims ought to conform when they are in the west, so I can safely say that conformance is a 2-way street.

Coming to HEC. Although I am not a beneficiary of any of its programs, but I know some people who are, and I know some of the programs. Apart from financing research in Pakistan and recruiting faculty from abroad, one of HEC`s main programs is financing Pakistani students` doctoral studies in Europe and other ``low-cost`` educational destinations. Every year, thousands of people apply and hundreds are accepted and sent abroad, they are paid a living stipend, and their fellowships are are paid for by the government of Pakistan. What is asked in return is that they come back and serve in a public or private educational organization in Pakistan for 5 years after completing their studies. I know for a fact that this year there were 92 people sent to France alone under this program, a number of others must also have gone to Germany, Scandinavia, Austria etc. Once this pipeline is full and there is output at the other end, we should see a significant improvement of the dismal higher education landscape of Pakistan.

Regards,
Irfan.

PS: Atheism seems to be a very common trait among scientists, e.g.: Hawking, Einstein, Hardy.

....... apology

......... dr hoodbhoy is doing an excellent job of pointing out the warts of the educational system and keeping the corrupt and incompetent ``academics`` on their toes ....... i was just being facetious when i called him ineffectual ........... of course there are many other good people like the folks in tcf and edhi who are also doing a great job of providing education and other services to the poor, but that does not mean people like dr hoodbhoy, eqbal ahmed, zia mian and asma jehangir are useless - they serve as the conscience of that unconcious nation and sometimes what they ``do`` has a much bigger impact than the ``real`` stuff ...........

........ and he has been working from ``within the system`` for more than two decades when he could have easily been minting money at some top notch us university ............ and he and his friend eqbal ahmed got close with their project to start a world class university ............. maybe his wife`s school will one day make that dream come true ...............

...... it is very easy to sit out here and criticize folks like dr hoodbhoy - i apologize .........

A general comment.

Is there any truth in what Professor Hoodbhoy has asserted visa vis HEC? If his assertions are vacuous, there isn`t much to discuss. However, the interactors should give factual instances to prove that Prof. Hoodbhoy`s assertions are incorrect indeed. In that case, HEC is probably doing a good job and we should encorage it as much as we possibly can by appreciating its efforts and contributions. But if there is some truth in what Prof. Hoodbhoy has written about HEC, we should stop criticizing him and his persona. I haven`t seen anything in print from the HEC administration saying plainly that Prof. Hoodbhoy`s charges are wrong; on the other hand, they have implied that they are misdirected. HEC`s stance is defensive. Those who are knowledgable among the Chowk readers about HEC should step forward and contribute.

Nobody has said so far on this board that HEC is doing a good job. Either the interactors are simply unaware of HEC`s performance or else they are too much betaken with criticizing Prof. Hoodbhoy because he is an easy target. Let us not shoot the messenger.

If there are reasons to appreciate HEC`s performance, those who have knowledge about it should not be stingy in appreciating it. As a starter, examples can perhaps be given of those who were beneficiaries of HEC`s bounty and after completing their research projects or Ph.D`s, some body should tell us, what good they are doing in return. Wishing well,

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 12 by Romair on August 15, 2005 1:27pm PT.
I am sure there is misunderstanding here. I think the article by Hoodbhoy was intended as a contribution towards healthy debate and criticism on HEC`s work. Such tradition, unfortunately, does not exist in Pakistan. It is not at all the question of gaining popularity and fame by writing critical essays and I don`t think it is Hoodbhoy`s motivation. No body denies the contributions and work of many silent workers in Pakistan, neither Hoodbhoy`s articles are meant for their denial. I think Hoodbhoy`s contribution is that he wants to see a critical and rational debate on many academic, social and political issues, a tradition of which does not exist in current system and culture of Pakistan. It is entirely misleading to interpret his efforts to introduce a culture of healthy dialogue and criticism just as an attempt to gain popularity and fame. Healthy criticism is never meant to deny constructive achievements of others. It is a self-correcting mechanism that maintains and ensures quality and efficiency in the functioning of the system. Thousands of silent sincere workers are indeed trying to build Pakistan from within and Hoodbhoy`s criticism does not deny that. What is missing in our system, however, is the tradition of accountability, critical analysis and debate and this is what Hoodbhoy is trying to introduce.

#12 by Romair on August 15, 2005 1:27pm PT


I can sit here and critique Pakistan`s IT industry the whole day and become a hero.


Yes please....toss out some gems like how you advise CIO/VP types on setting up their IT departments...

I could use a few laughs on a monday...

viewer #10: ``Do you want to say that Hoodbhoy is somehow not ``working within`` the system in spite of the fact that since early 1970s he remains a full-time faculty member of the Physics Department of Quaid-i-Azam University?``

There are a lot of people in Pakistan who have been working in Pakistan, for thirty years. Including most of my family. And most of the families of most Pakistanis. In fact 99% of the Pakistanis are doing so. So I am not sure if being a full-time employee in Pakistan is a big deal. I was one for close to 10 years. I don`t think I deserve a medal for that..........

Everyone has the right to criticize. However, I think there needs to be a certain group that actually builds and constructs. They deserve the attention. There are a lot of people doing that. And they do it without any personal recognition or noterioty. I mentioned some in the list in the last reply........

No one is doubting the fact that Hoodbhoy is working in Pakistan. But the members of HEC etc. are also working in Pakistan. Hoodbhoy and HEC etc. are all working for govt. insitutions. I am not sure, but isn`t Q-e-A University a govt. run university? If they all spend their whole time critiquing each other`s govt. institution, who is ever going to do anything?

I can sit here and critique Pakistan`s IT industry the whole day and become a hero. Or I can try to go do something about it. I can sit and critique the lack of medical facilities. Or I can go build a hospital.

The later requires the ability to work within a corrupt and inefficient system. The former simply requires the ability to write newspaper articles. I would personally be far more impressed with Hoodbhoy if he were known more for his constructive achievements, then for his critiques.

This does not mean, people should not critique. I am all in favor of that. But the people who should get most of the attention and notice should be the ones who are running the free hospitals and the charities and free schools etc. One`s claim to fame should never be as a critic. It should be as a doer.........At least in my opinion.

I get the feeling Hoodbhoy is far more known as a critic than as a doer...........Everytime I see him or read something by him, it is a critique of someone who is trying to do something constructive. Perhaps it is just a coincidence.........

Re: #6 by Urstruly on August 15, 2005 8:45am PT
``I see that dr. hoodbhoy has no phds enrolled with him. He is not even a memeber of any research facility/lab. I want to know what good his degree from MIT has done for Pakistan academically.``

Dr. Hoodbhoy`s distinguished academic services to the Physics Department at Quaid-i-Azam University are beyond any doubt. The list starts from bringing Pakistan on the world map of high-energy particle physics in early years to attacting funds from international scientific organizations to support Pakistani research students in later years. He may not be registering a PhD student presently but he supervised to completion at least four PhDs students. His deep affiliation and sincerity to the University and non-academic services made to it are well-known. These include, for example, saving the University`s land from corrupt political as well as University`s own officials.

Re: # 9
``Hoodbhoy lacks a crucial quality, due to which he, though well-intentioned, will not be too successful: He needs to learn the tricks and trades of working within a system, to change it. Rather than constantly trying to criticise the system.``

Do you want to say that Hoodbhoy is somehow not ``working within`` the system in spite of the fact that since early 1970s he remains a full-time faculty member of the Physics Department of Quaid-i-Azam University? Do you want to say that somehow working within a system mysteriously means not criticising it ever? Hoodbhoy has pointed out serious shortcomings on the behalf of HEC and according to you by doing that he somehow suddenly ``does not work`` within the system. This is Pakistani mind, instead of addressing the issues that Hoodbhoy wants to raise and starting a constructive debate we immediately revert to personal attacks. Hoodbhoy is an asset for Pakistan because he has got the courage to criticise the system while working within it.

Hamidm mian #7: Hoodbhoy lacks a crucial quality, due to which he, though well-intentioned, will not be too successful: He needs to learn the tricks and trades of working within a system, to change it. Rather than constantly trying to criticize the system. Nothing wrong with the later, but one does not need an MIT Ph.D to do that. It is the former that gets the job done. If one reaches the stage where the only thing one is know for, is one`s vocal activism, then I am afraid all the effort has gone to waste........

There are people who have worked within the system and gotten things done. Edhi runs a gigantic welfare organization, from within the system. Imran Khan built a cancer hospital and is planning another one. Dr. Hamid turned around large portions of Orangi. A group of industrialists set up LUMS. Another group set up the very well-organized Citizens Foundation.....There are so many more...All within the system.......

I am involved with a students charity in Pakistan. Through it, I have gotten to see some of the real Pakistan. I have been surprised to see how philanthrapic Pakistan`s industrial class is. They may not pay taxes, but they donate money a lot. The charity has never been short of funding. As well as how energitic the poor student community is. It is enough to put one`s faith in Pakistan........

Can you name the team that is running Citizen`s Foundation? Can you name the team that is running Imran Khan`s cancer hospital? Can you name the team that is running Edhi Foundation? Can you name the team that is running Orangi Pilot Project? Are they every on TV or in the news?

I doubt you can name them. Neither can I. The people who do real work, do so behind the scenes, without any noterioty. This is why I think, perhaps, Hoodbhoy and Asma et al are too caught up in their limelight and celebarity status. Not to mention too caught up in campaigning against the mullahs, all the time.

If they truly want to change something, they would be a lot better off, keeping a low profile and doing constructive work, from inside the system. There are people who will raise a lot of noise about the govt. not making Cancer hospitals. Every society needs a bit of that. However, the real people are the ones who don`t waste their time complaining, but actually go out and build the Cancer hospital...........

Re: # 7

Hamidm2 - I wish there was a way to get Hoodbhoy to leave the benevolent land and embrace Starbucks. We would have so much fun out here, talking about science and other irreverent things BUT a little bird tells me that he has no intention to do that. The fool that he is.

this is what i said about dr hoodbhoy and reema five years ago - i am afraid it is still true :

.......... i don`t mean to be disrespectful, but dr. hoodbhoy is another example of good intentions that get nowhere ......... i hear a lot about him in the drawing rooms of pindi and islamabad ....`` well meaning chap - but a little diwana, dharia and maghrib-zada, quite ineffectual - what a waste`` .......... while he continues to submit his tales of lamentation to the news and the chowk, which between them get about a few thousand convent-educated readers, the taliban and the jamaat are busy building madrassas and winning the jihad for the minds of the young ................ hate to sound like an alarmist, but i am sure dr. hoodbhoy will soon be joining us at starbuck`s to deplore the mullah-led take over of pakistan .......... asma jehangir will probably be burned at the stake to be beatified by a pope in the year 3000 ..... i only hope that reema and neeli make it to brooklyn where we can continue the traditions of hira mandi ..........

I see that dr. hoodbhoy has no phds enrolled with him. He is not even a memeber of any research facility/lab. I want to know what good his degree from MIT has done for Pakistan academically.

Here are some comments in other places.

1/ These letters (2) were published on Dawn - http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/02/letted.htm#1

2/ Here is what Cowasjee had to say on this ...
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20050306.htm

There is no doubt that some very qualified and well intentioned people are in the HEC - it is time that the displayed some character.

I think the HEC is at the point where if it doesnt clean its shop they could become just another useless government organization.

Agreed. Instead of backfiring and counterattacking at Dr Hoodbhoy, HEC personnel should have addressed all the queries he raised in an appropriate way, if they had any intentions to possibly come clear.

[most faculty members in Pakistani Universities are just not capable of supervising multiple PhD students]
I say most cannot supervise even a single student!

I applaud Amer Iqbal`s courageous step to ask HEC to answer categorically the points raised by Hoodbhoy. It is not the HEC only, most of the other Pakistani government departments are being run similarly. PAEC, KRL and PCSIR Labs are other examples. The officials of these departments hate to listen to any scrutiny on their activities: an attitude apparent from HEC`s response to Hoodbhoy`s article. I remain surprised that HEC could not offer a response and effectively tried to suppress the matter, instead of correcting and scrutinising itself.

``...I recall a project very similar to this presented by a PhD student from a Pakistani ``..University at a Math conference in Lahore recently. The student wanted to derive all scientific facts and formulas from the verses of Quran and clearly indicated without any reservations, ...``

Are you sure? You are kidding the readers here! Aren`t you??

Mr. Hoodbhoy saw it coming and so did we who follow his works so closely and now it is also our job to back him up as much as we can. More later.