Decline of Science in the Muslim World

#81 Raw_Dust (additional information)

The following information is from an Israeli web-site entitled Jewish Nobel Prize Laureates.

Discipline	Number of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners
Biomedical Sciences	48
Chemistry	26
Economics	19
Physics	43
Literature	11
Total (Five disciplines)	147

Re: # 78

beejay,

......... ramind me not to tangle with you !......... you are vicious!........ however, i have a feeling that you and the good doctor are good friends and all this is just for show ........ this is the kind of abuse one can heap on only someone you know and love - a stranger would kill you for much less .............

#81 Raw_Dust

Thanks for bringing up this issue and providing more clarification.

I do believe that there are many lessons for “we” people (i.e., for those from the subcontinent) if we choose to learn them, by reading about and understanding more of the Jewish experience (which, from all accounts, is without parallel) and especially about the holocaust – both in terms of learning about man’s potential cruelty to man as well as man’s ability to survive against the worst odds. In many ways, the holocaust was (and remains) a most “personal” experience to most Jewish families somewhat like the India-Pakistan partition remains to those in our subcontinent who were destroyed or displaced due to it – people have moved on but the memories have remained and are not likely to be forgotten any time soon. Religious beliefs and values are one thing – every community passes them from generation to generation – tragic experiences of this nature (the holocaust) are in a league of their own (both in intensity and magnitude) – they would superimpose themselves on TOP of whatever the original religious framework would be – an “intellectual” discussion is in many ways futile because of the very “personal” nature of the ordeal. (Note: for those who have not already done so, NHK’s article on this site is probably a good place to start to learn about Jewish history. Also, for those who live in the Washington, DC area or happen to visit there, please do make it a point to visit the Holocaust Memorial.)

It is also a fact of life that people who have to struggle to survive generally get better-trained to adapt to new realities, come up with more innovations (you see, they have little choice but to do so) and are able to forge ahead better – including in eventually making new discoveries. This is true of most immigrant populations, including Bangladeshis in India, Indians in U.S., and the Jewish expatriate populations world-wide.

Re: BeeJay Sahib #58
I didnot mean to trivialize the issue in any whatsoever way. I am in 100% agreement with you.

Reason i brought up is to differentiate between a muslim broughtup (i got one) and a jewish one. The former has first and foremost stress on instilling the belief of an eternal exclusive heaven for Muslims in the Hereafter (the importance of clinging onto The belief etc. at all costs), on the other hand the later seems more concerned about the well being of jewish people and their fears of history repeating itself in this World - Hereafter or Heaven/Hell etc. doesnt seem to be The major thing.

(all this is based on purely personal experience/observation and not meant to be taken as a generalization of entire peoples).

Re: # 78

BJ

Dude, you`re good!!!

#73 by hamidm2

[shankar, ......... remind me never to get on your wrong side !]
May dear bhai jaan, aap itni chhotee-si baton se ghabraa jaatein hain? There is no need to be intimidated by S3 – in this case, the only “wrong” side would be his “couch” side – I would worry about the patients of S3!

#72 SSS (S3)

Ah, at long last, the head “doc” (or perhaps I should say the good head doc, or even the Doc Good-head) sneaks back in – if only for a minute – and what an excuse (Start piquant woman’s voice) “I have a day job”! (End piquant woman’s voice) What do you think being a janitor is – my dear fraud (I mean Freud). Yet there are some of us here who attach more importance to these interacts than just a quick snort for kicks in between bouts of further screwing-up of minds that are already screwed-up, especially since they blundered into your clinic and missed that “abandon hope all who enter here” sign that the state must have required you to put up front.

As I have stated before, your interactions over the years reveal a deeply disturbed persona – someone who came to this chowk world wearing a thin veneer of civility and tried to maintain it for a while – until the sands of time kept grating and exposing more and more of the inner core – till it all came out – the gook, the bad, and the ugly! Your wholesale generalization and trashing of a people (Biharis, in this case) is beyond comparison. It won’t surprise me if as a child you were traumatized by your Bihari milkman – or perhaps a Bihari school bully – at the head of a long line of bullies taking their respective turns at you. Are you sure that in your heart YOU are not a Bihari wanna-be?

Note: the abbreviation S3 stands for “Shrunk Shrink Shankar”. The word “shrunk” in intended to refer to narrowness of thought, limited vocabulary, and an inherent inability amounting to a debilitating disability to rise above cuss-words. Any resemblance to real or fictitious or missing bodily appendages of the object in question is purely coincidental – unless it is real!

[Yo!...you` quite sure youre not a katlu?...cos then I should be vicariously ashamed that you are a hindu...]
Feel free to cry into the bucket your tears of shame – I have the mops ready! Just don’t leave behind that trail of yellowish liquid you did the last time you ran away for dear life!

[Sigh...just when I admonished that descendant of Lord Ram...Toufeeq sahib not to be the Ram-damned pope of Chowk....another proud descendant of Krishna appoints himself as the pope... ]
As you know, that position is critical and must never remain vacant! The people who USED to do such self-appointment (look into the mirror for one such) have turned into quitters – I guess they just did not have what it takes!

Re #69 by hamidm2

[......... oye! ..... as a proud member of the martial race, i never run away ( and please don`t mention kargil ) ]
It is highly unfair to mention Kargil! We must never joke about Kargil. I would never trivialize the sacrifice of individual soldiers on either side, and nobody should. It is worth bringing to your attention that the lay soldiers of both countries are of the same basic stock! Soldiers do not make policy and are the first to get hit in the line of fire. I wish though that ONE of the sides would have the guts to acknowledge the truth about their idiotic blunder!! I wish to God these were people of courage and vision – the reality is otherwise – perhaps they are simply too stressed out by having to deal with transgressing traffic ticketers or mouth-running Mukhtaran mais and such!

[........ anyway you nicely ducked my question with some evasive platitude about being ``nice to guests`` and all that - an answer you would expect from a mealymouthed bania (i hope this epithet does not violate chowk policy) ......... but you know what i meant and i respect your desire to avoid another riot in mumbai and the even worse blood bath on chowk .............. ]
I thought I did answer the question. I don’t think it should be important who cheerleads whom, and rooting for sports teams does not (and should never) be taken as a sign of loyalty – people who fall for stuff like that will fall for other things. The more overt such “patriotism” the more suspect it could be! Deeds always speak louder than words. By and large, the Indian Muslim community is just as patriotic as the Indian Hindu community. The reality is there may be bad apples in ANY community – I doubt that statistically the percentage of such apples is any more within the Indian Muslim community! (Side note: as you are aware my dear, invocation of third-party catalysts may run counter to the newly e-musculated chowk guidelines.) I have not had the “privilege” of being to Bombay, except for a 15-hour break between changing trains, but I do believe that people from Mumbai do not resort to riot over trivialities.

[......... people who have been left trailing in the dust and badly need a bath, tend to be more ``proud`` of the traditions and ``achievements`` of their progenitors ......... half-naked indians and bare-bottomed bushmen of kalahari are not an exception ............. however, the muslims are a special case because of their belief that they belong to this `supra-nation` ummah that transcends geographical and ethnic boundaries ........... what does a dyak from borneo, who was recently chopping off people`s head for dinner, have in common with ibn sina ? ]
The mistake is YOURS in assuming that ALL Muslims fall for the “ummah” emotive appeal. However, if many did – what’s the correct approach for dealing with such a problem, other than to enlighten more – with articles like this?! It certainly beats the other approach – called the “brute force” method for attitude adjustment.

Re: # 74

gill sahib,

........ good for you ! ........you just proved my point

............ i wish i had been invited to the wedding you attended ............ unfortunately .......it was a gala affair and involved some ``prominent`` muslims (indian and pakistani) from the detroit area - they even had a couple of congressmen, rabbis, reverends and mayors - but there was no wine and no music .......... i have fallen in bad company ! ........... yesterday, at another wedding, i had to walk across the marina for a drink in the dark ............

Gill Saheb:

You are right. We all have our identities, mostly acquired at birth and we all have a right to be proud of whatever identity we choose to identify with - religious/cultural/linguistic/ethnic (except racial which is politically incorrect to do these days unless one is black!).

I am sorry if I am one of those whose remarks irked you. You are doing an admirable job of educating us here at chowk. I hope you will continue to do so.

hamidm2:

I didn`t attend the wedding you mentioned, I was at an Indian wedding. The girl`s father works for a company which does business with my department. I know him for several years. He is a nice guy. Normally I do not go to functions in the late evenings but he insisted that we attend. We (my wife, my son, his wife and I) went and we enjoyed. Drinks were provided by the host. I took a couple of wines (with my wife`s permission who took a couple of sips from my glass and probably consumed a glass of her own). The music was Indian and western. The people danced and had good time. The bride`s younger sister brightened the occasion with tidbits of her family life. On the whole, it was an enjoyable occasion. The bride is a professional.

Next week I am going to a Phillipino wedding which is quite formal. I have to dress up with black tie. The world beyond Chowk is delightful. Many people here are unnecessarily uptight and trapped in their petty and narrow-minded prejudices. Be well,

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 72

shankar,

......... remind me never to get on your wrong side !

My dear hydrocoel-head,

{{Since I appear to have scared away hamidm for now, I will like to use this lull in interacts to put in a couple of my additional thoughts on this article.}}

All you frikkin descendants of Lord Krishna are the same...like your ``Emperor Lallooo``...you need to be VICARIOUSLY ASHAMED for pulling India into the gutter & destroying her ``stats``....

then PREACH to everybody here...with some idiotic, wordy bs...

Worse than that; though!...you BIHARI buggers think you are LEGENDS only in your own minds...pugnacious mofos...I mean atleast the bloody pathans are good looking! ...whats youre excuse?!!...

Yo!...you` quite sure youre not a katlu?...cos then I should be vicariously ashamed that you are a hindu...now I know why my ancestors appointed themselves as a ``superior`` class....too many Krishna-damned Yadavs in this world.....

Sigh...just when I admonished that descendant of Lord Ram...Toufeeq sahib not to be the Ram-damned pope of Chowk....another proud descendant of Krishna appoints himself as the pope...

which BEGS me to ask the question?...why dont you take a long walk on the short pier of Lake Burma?...& stop annoying us with your papayya wisdom...man ...you need to get them hydrocoels drained...theyre draggin` you down...

too bad some of us have day jobs...I`d use my little spare time...& connections in the Burmese Embassy to give you frikkin` citizenship of that land....rather than being regaled by ``Bihari wisdom`` on this hallowed ground of chowk...

hamid & gill make a hell of a lot of sense...now lather your scalp with some peanut oil...

Re: # 70

gill sahib,

...... i agree with you 99% ...... and you are right when you say that you cannot efface your identity ................. my problem is with the fact that people like you (and i) are in the minority and 99% of the muslims do tend to wear their religious identity on their sleeve and deny their true ethnic/cultural roots .......... for example, you might have been at that huge indian-paki wedding in the detroit area recently where the only music played was the daf accompanied by some whining in arabic !......... what the heck was all that about ?!! ...... what is wrong with indian/paki music (or western music) ?

rgds

hamidm2:

Our individual identities may not be important at the fundamental level but in the real world that we live, they have become part of the baggage that one has to carry. After 9/11, I noticed some people who had behaved normally before, started acting weirdly simply because of my name, Mohammad. It was their problem not mine. Even when you play down your ethnicity, your identity, your roots, etc., it all depends in the end how the others perceive you. Even on Chowk, those who pretend they are liberal and broad minded curse me at the first opportunity believing I am a Pakistani and a Muslim. They don`t discuss my articles they balk at my origins. That is how far one`s liberalism takes him or her.

Many inter-actors run wild with their comprehension of the essence of science. I wonder how much science they have done in their life who criticise me for my ignorance. But that`s okay. I am not a scientist; I am an engineer who has delved in engineering science. I had written earlier in some other articles that science does not have any religion, culture, sex, ethninicty, etc. but the scientists do. Many tend to merge science with the scientists and run away with it.

On a personal note, we have our conceptual differences on some points which is fine. One human being is not a carbon copy of another. Diversity is the order of nature. If you want to efface your cultural identity, it`s fine with me. But this kind of thing is practically impossible. Even when you relinquish it, others will pin it on to you, so why bother?

In the end, all of us are human beings, the homosapiens. You might like to say that first of all we are homosapiens. To me both are the same things.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 62

beejay,

......... oye! ..... as a proud member of the martial race, i never run away ( and please don`t mention kargil )

........ anyway you nicely ducked my question with some evasive platitude about being ``nice to guests`` and all that - an answer you would expect from a mealymouthed bania (i hope this epithet does not violate chowk policy) ......... but you know what i meant and i respect your desire to avoid another riot in mumbai and the even worse blood bath on chowk ..............

......... people who have been left trailing in the dust and badly need a bath, tend to be more ``proud`` of the traditions and ``achievements`` of their progenitors ......... half-naked indians and bare-bottomed bushmen of kalahari are not an exception ............. however, the muslims are a special case because of their belief that they belong to this `supra-nation` ummah that transcends geographical and ethnic boundaries ........... what does a dyak from borneo, who was recently chopping off people`s head for dinner, have in common with ibn sina ?