Non-Reformist but Non-Cleric

didn`t someone post a news article about the Islamic influence on the turkish soccer players...some players wouldn`t pass the ball to a player they deemed insufficiently islamic...

While we are discussing Turkiye, can someone tell whether Turk or Turkiye means
something or is just a word?

Re: # 31

ally,
Thank you very much for providing this accurate perception after your many trips to Turkiye. I share your optimism. Turks are 99.6% Muslim, but they are also Asian, European, human, and all the other classifications of mankind. :)
Thanks again,
Salim

Re: #13 Ranjit,

Amazing! For once I find myself in agreement with Ranjit! In both Turkey and Iran the ``will`` of the people has been rather successfully stymied by unaccountable and unrepresentative bodies.

Unfortunately for Ally, Turkey has already voted for the Mullahs (albeit a seemingly kinder, gentler type than is found in Pakistan or Iran). Or what do you think the Welfare (or whatever its current reincarnation is called) actually is? This version of it is the mildest one possible given what the Army said was acceptable to them. Or do you think that the Welfare Party of twenty years ago was the same ``kinder, gentler`` Islamists that it is today?

The generals seem to be losing ground in Turkey, although it seems more in the nature of a planned withdrawal than a rout. As you get further east from Istanbul, you step further back in time and closer to a more ``Islamic`` norm. Maybe in ten or twenty years, if/when the Generals are finally gone and Turkey is still only a ``moderately`` Islamic country (with freely available booze, Turkish Playboy and topless beaches), I`ll gladly admit how wrong I was about Turkey.... but I`m not worried about being proven wrong.

So, No generals = No moderate Islamic govt.

Re: # 32

good point

The problem is that we always seek black or white answer, which is rarely possible. Life is most of the time lived in gray with pregnant possibilities. Ahmadinejad’s ascension may prove beneficial to the world or may precipitate a crisis, who knows. One thing is certain that West is paranoid about Islamic hotheads laying their hands on an atom bomb and they will do anything to stop this, anything! Even though they may condone this Kim character acquiring one and threaten Japan and Korea but West itself will remain kind of immune to Kim’s bomb. Ahmadinejad seems to me as bullheaded as Dubya, therefore I keep my fingers crossed.

Re: # 31
well then - why is Turkish Army standing guard to protect secularism? Sure they know something....

The examples of Turkey and Iran should debunk the theory once and for all that colonialism was of “benefit” to south Asia, both of these countries are ahead of pakistan in terms of literacy, gdp, health and social care, even pervez hoodhboy is saying Iran’s universities are better than ours.

nice article, a refreshing change...

Ranjit and all others who think Türkiye is going to vote in the Mullahs should actually go there. I have been many times to stay with friends, and from my observations as much as the ppl are Muslim, they are not going to vote in the Mullahs to ruin their country, they are reforming their society to join the EU (may not happen for a long time - but they are trying)

Even tho the Türk Prime Minister is from an Islamist background, he is pushing forward reforms to ensure Türkiye joins Avrupa (EU).

The people in Türkiye are not pro Islam to the extent that they would want Mullahs of Iran or Pakistan and would never want that sort of political Islam in their country. Türkiye earns major income from tourism and would not want to lose that, how much does Iran, Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia earn from tourism?

There is no way after years and generations of Secular and European living Turks would want to end up like Iran or Pakistan.

``........ looking forward to seeing you on tv one of these days - farhatullah babar does an okay job but the political parties desperatly need some new faces to speak for them ..............``

Really, that is great. Go Manotlives go. I was about to cancel our dish subscription.
I probably should keep it and subscribe to Geo or Ary.

yasser,

this was an excellent article ............. i think you should send it to prof ferguson - sometimes these smart academics (like the rest of us) fall victim to our own prejudices ........ it is always better to be aware of other possibilities even if they do not support your world view .............

........ looking forward to seeing you on tv one of these days - farhatullah babar does an okay job but the political parties desperatly need some new faces to speak for them ..............

Good analysis. Thumbs up!

Aisha Sarwari

Dont take these so called pesudo-intellectual professors seriously that cant understand the mentality of muslims and muslim world. Personally I feel that all these mullah`s should be publically shot but this is not the solution of this Mullah problem. Iranian Mullahs have a distinct quality that makes them different from the rest of Mullah community especially from the Mullahs in Pakistan. They balance Mullahism and Politics in a good manner they should be praised for this fact that they are doing a very fine job balancing the Americans and EU demands and keeping Iranian interest about their Nucleur stuff. They have made good political decisions switiching sides at right time with the right party.

We live in a third world country where life revloves around roti, capra and makan and if people are getting that stuff they dont care Mullah is the head of state or not.

Democracy is not for muslim world at least for the next 2 generations. Literate people can`t elect competant leaders and the sort of politicians and leaders we have in muslim world, we are better off with Musharaf and Hossani Mubarak. Leaders who can rule and reform with batons not wth policies.

Pan-Islamicism is a hoax created by Jemal Abdul Nasir and Anwar Saadat when they couldn`t settle their disputes with Israel they tried to drag the whole Islamic world in their dispute under the disguise of Pan-Islamicism.

Rozaiba,

I think your analogy is misplaced.

The election of Iranian President is direct- the election of Prime Minister is indirect in a parliamentary system. How many votes would Manmohan Singh gotten in a direct election in India?

The problem is again with manipulation which is present both in Iran and in Pakistan, but there is a noted difference... Our ruling alliance is in essence a winners club of influential local politicians cobbled together for the benefit of the Army Chief and our illegitimate President. Indeed it is wrong to try and divide them into Q-League, MQM and Patriots because there are very deep divisions within the cobbled Muslim League ...

However... in this great Islamabad game it must be noted that the Army Chief himself is now dependant influential local politicians... very different in ideology and aspiration... from the Chaudhries... to the Tareens... the Legharis etc all form distinct groups... and then ofcourse you have a proper political party MQM in Karachi and Hyderabad... In this great game ... the Military dictator is in a symbiotic/mutual parasitic relationship with the politicians... even Benazir Bhutto, the most popular politician in Pakistan by far, is part of the game ... whether you want to accept it or not... she is as big a manipulator of General Musharraf as anyone... without her tacit approval the patriots would not be in alliance with the general... only Imran Khan is the sucker who has been rejected by all...

The question my dear friend is that despite being hugely unpopular Mr Khamanei ``the Rahbar`` of Iran does not need to seek legitimacy.... but the ``absolute`` military dictator of Pakistan at the head of a huge army is forced to cobble together alliances with influential local politicians and try and seek legitimacy in form of local elections (same is true of Ayub and Zia) ... I think we can draw our own conclusions... about which is ahead in the game ... a multi-party state where the manipulator is also the manipulated... or a partyless state where the word of the Mullah is final ?

#16, #20 interesting points. But is there any milage in this, can it be developed further. Does this have any bearing in the lack of peoples particiaption in the govt`s? What exactly are the key reasons for the dystopic and dysfunctional development in these states?

Re: # 23 ``However, I am convinced Pakistan’s inability to function in a democratic set-up is entirely the result of the meddlesome Army. It has nothing to do with the lack of intellectual depth that other Islamic nations face. Yes, the lack of intellectual depth persists, but that is not responsible for the zeal of the faujiz. They are in it cause they don’t want to lose out in the decision making process. ``

Again a small difference in perspective here. Much as I agree with the general thrust of the above, I have a small point to make. The faujiz have a natural in built talent for usurption of power. However, this instinct can be kept down, as is done in other states. The issue is with the civilians, who either invite these faujiz or conspire with them to do down their opponenets. This is something which Pakistani civilians have excelled in right from the start. Too much bhaav was given to these faujiz.

I wouldnt blame the faujiz for their actions. the blame lies squarely with the civlians - the politicians, the civil servants et al who gave this bhaav to the faujiz.