Non-Reformist but Non-Cleric

MR. Manto very good article as always. That professor sound like an idiot to me.

Ahmadinejad or Khameini; they do not matter or are relevant. The real problem is that Iran is supporting militant forms of Islam. Those versions have formalized - and attempt to legitimize - hatred against non_Islamic people. Hence they are threat to all, i.e., other than Shiiites.

A few questions to the Author: If we are talking of democracy, why did Rafsanjani who was known to be a reformer lose out to the hardliner Ahmednejam? Is he going to introduce real democracy in a country where Mullahcracy has been ruling since the Revolution? We do not know if that is even his intention. Even if it was, are the Mullahs going to allow that? When the people of Iran elected Ahmednejad did they hope that there would be democracy if he came to power? Or, like at the time of the Islamic revolution, they want the rule of the hardliners to be strengthened? The situation in Iran is really an enigma to outsiders.

The tragedy is that all inner core countries of the Islamic world viz. the Arab countries and Iran are now under the vicious grip of dictators, despots, mullahs and megalomaniacs. The situation in poor cousins of the Islamic world like Pakistan and Bangladesh is often wretched because trying to play catch-up with the core countries in being more Islamic and gain acceptability, the state often encourages obscurantist forces and then things spin out of control, or they end up facing self created Frankensteins.

As for Turkey, till such time the Army keeps tabs, things will look good. Whenever that ends, Kemal Mustafa Ataturk will be given the short shrift by the Mullahs who are waiting in the wings.

All in all a not so bright an outlook for the Muslim world in particular and the whole world in general.

Manto,
Very timely and interesting article. Thank you for writing an informative and mentally refreshing essay. What a relief after reading the ``Hi Jack/Jamil`` nonsense!

{``The problem with think tanks in the west is their tunnel vision and inability to look beyond the short term``}

I couldn`t agree with you more about this statement. Very well articulated. Good job.

Salim

#3, muqaddam {``As for Turkey, till such time the Army keeps tabs, things will look good. Whenever that ends, Kemal Mustafa Ataturk will be given the short shrift by the Mullahs who are waiting in the wings.``}

and

{``The situation in poor cousins of the Islamic world like Pakistan and Bangladesh is often wretched because trying to play catch-up with the core countries in being more Islamic and gain acceptability, the state often encourages obscurantist forces and then things spin out of control, or they end up facing self created Frankensteins.``}


Muqqy MiaN,
I agree with your second comment. These poor guys are trying to out-Wahab the Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia. :)

As for your first point, believe me, there is a very slim chance for Mullah rule or, theocracy. At 99.8% Muslim, Turkey is not obsessed with trying to prove its Muslim religion. After three generations of secularism, not many people want to be ruled by Islamic Law - not even the religious ones.

Thanks,
Salim

Law-breaking criminal Musharraf should follow Turkey`s Cypress example in J&K.

#6 by shishapa
You mean we invite Turks to fight for Kashmir as we helped them against Greece?

#7, {``You mean we invite Turks to fight for Kashmir as we helped them against Greece? ``}

Imran Bhai,
``Ain`t no Turks dyin nowhere except `n Turkey`` - Ataturk, 1930s :)
Salim

Re: # 7

It is Cyprus... very different from the doctrine of Cypress...

Mantolives, bhaijaan, there is a small gap in the perspective. Iran and its system is the equivalent of the Grande Army. And the Grande Army has to have a Bonaparte, who can project its wishes and desires onto the world and thus a problem/threat to the world order. If there is a Bonaparte then there is a need for a Wellington to contain the Bonaparte and bring sense and order to the world. No Wellington, is a recipe for Chaos.

Ahmadinejad`s win would be a triumph if he can pursue the interests of Iran within the given world order, even if there is to be a change in leadership it has to be orderly. You cannot have revolutions popping up everywhere.

What Ferggy has said is true, and one should note his statements and understand them.

Dear Yasser,

As usual, you have write well. Thank you. I enjoyed it very much.

I would like to get some comments from Iranian and/or Turkish intellectuals on the subject matter. I wonder if the Chowk staff aggressively markets their web site to these two groups.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram B. Atashband

I agree with u when you say Iranian revolution was not a step backwards but unfortunately it was soon taken backwards like happens in most revolutions of any ideology.

This article is totally off the mark. Both Turkey and Iran are failures in democracy because neither country allows free choice to its citizens. In Turkey, if the army moves aside, the people will elect the mullahs to come to power. In Iran, if the mullahs step aside, the people will elect the secularists to power. In either case, the will of the people is forcibly controlled by an unelected group of people whether it be the army or the mullahs in the respective countries.

A true democratic society has the maturity and the wisdom to reject extreme ideologies and has a self-correcting mechanism to determine the right course of action. In India, when the lefties were running amok, people elected the BJP. When the BJP didnt work out, they elected the lefties again. If the lefties do not work out again, the BJP will once more. But that is the nature of the game. The ordinary people in their collective wisdom determine their destiny - not some arbitrary institution that believes that it has the god given right to control everyone.

The experience of Turkey and Iran shows that basically muslims as a people are not evolved enough to have a truly independent democracy where the will of the people is supreme. Islamic civilization is backward and lacks the intellectual depth and maturity of other civilizations where people have been able to control their own destinies. In Islamic countries it is always some unelected person, military dictator or an arbitrary institution that has to control the people. No wonder everyone else looks down on muslims.

manto:

yes, ahmednejad seems like a good man for iran. that picture also looks pretty cool.

more such studies need to be done to help understand why turkey and iran are where they are in a region that is rather antagonistic towards a democratic dispensation. i feel perhaps visionary leaders willing to fight the circumstances - internal and external - had a large role to play in this.

again, and you may not agree with this, pakistan has ended up with a man who is way too concerned about his own legitimacy to be able to string together a sense of direction.

there could be a comparison of bush and ahmednejad. bush would probably end up being the more conservative of the lot.

Montag,

As usual, thank you for your kind words and support that you show for my articles and posts on this website.

Inquirer,

Bias is a natural human phenomenon... a way should be found to reduce it but caricaturing the other is not going to help.

Muqaddam,

I did not suggest that all is well in Iran... but that Ahmadinejad`s election is a step forward for the Iranian people, even if a small insignificant one...


Salim,

Thank you :)

Ironmask,

I am afraid my friend it is not a grande army... the Iranian revolution is well contained as long as the pragmatic middle class gets to make the policy... and that is what I think this victory indicates... it must be remembered that Ahmadinejad was NOT the original government candidate.

Behram1,

Thankyou.. :)

The article has a lot of significance for Pakistan as well... because ultimately we too have to break the shackles of the military.

Ranjit,

What you have written is not in contradiction to what I`ve written... yes Muslims have not evolved as a people... but then you have to accept that they are in some way shape or form a people or constitute sub-national groups within accepted geographical nations. It is a long way for the Islamic world to arrive at secular democracy... but it has to... What is your solution to current backwardness of Muslims? kill them all?


Rozaiba...

Ahmadinejad as the mayor of Tehran installed the statue of Simon Bolivar- the founding father of Venezuela, Bolivia etc ... I think that in of itself shows that he is not narrow minded in his thinking... and then there are many other things... he tore down Beckham`s poster a few years ago... for obscenity (ofcourse you would never see women in Iran on billboards... like you do in our Islamic Republic... so there is no question of tearing down billboards with women on it)

I ofcourse don`t see Iran, a partyless Mullah-dominated state, has anywhere ahead of us as such.... The President of the Islamic Republic of Iran is ultimately as big a stooge of the Ayotallah - the rahbar as our Prime Minister is of the Chief of the Army Staff... unlike us there is no criticism of the Rahbar in Iran... in Pakistan we have a rather vibrant press quite critical of the Chief... Turkey has fared better... after 81 years of evolution ... but it too went through its rough patches, hanged its popularly prime minister and today it has a strong Islamist undercurrent...

Read Ranjit`s post... I think it is almost an accurate portrayal of the two states- though he is a bit uncharitable to the Turks...

-YLH

Rozaiba

I am pretty big on subtle but profound and durable influence of cultures. IMO, neither Turkey nor Iran fully share the Arabic mindset. Both have strong local cultures upon which an uncertain layer of Arabic Islam has been placed.