Culture Cloning

Re: # 400
[.....many chinese having actually read art of war, or westerners knowledge of trojans...]

Don`t know about the chinese - but ``westerners`` knowledge about the classics is confined to academia and the elite - average joe knows squat :) Percent-wise that may be higher than Indians who know their classics .....

The difference is the private sponsorship of such studies at the highest level - the study of classics have been greatly institutionalized and hence good research is carried out.... In contrast - there is virtually no such thing happening in india - primarily because - until now - Indians at large never had money to sponsor such ventures .... or those who have money were not interested in this stuff anyway....

Things may change down the line - with so many millionaires popping up these days - soon people interested in such research into the India`s classical past may find sponsors.....

The reality is, all this chest-puffing notwithstanding, maybe 0.0001% of highly educated (i mean 12+8 years kind) indians cant tell the plot-line of Meghdoot by kalidasa or list the titles of plays by Bhavbhuti (crying eye icon) and whatever they know would be from wikipedia (showing teeth icon).

contrast that with so many chinese having actually read art of war, or westerners knowledge of trojans (no not the USC or lubricated ones) and the bible old-testament or shakespere..this shows that sanskrit is dead-meat, and have been so for a long time. brahmins tried to keep it alive, (some with questinable ucchar) and others apparently were just plain lazy ;-) and blame the brahmins for it, go figure.

chinese picture script has meaning transmission built-into, i.e. it is geography and time invariant. so a book written long ago can be read later or at a different part of china with same meaning. that is a powerful characteristic which unifies china geographicaly as well as a seemingly timelss civilization.

Re: # 396

Sridhar:

I do not know what to call a person, who cannot differentiate between the masses and students of world famous educational institutions. Think about it and let me how would you like to be addressed.

Anil

Re: # 396

Sridhar:

You seem to have penchant for profanity. Draw a timeline and see for yourself, also please use your brain for other than profanity. Please do learn Sanskrit grammar, it is interesting and quite easy.

Also ancient hindu society never limited movement of people from one caste to the other. Get rid of this superiority complex of being a South Indian brahmin. Your kind of attitude has caused enough problems for India.

I am least interested in wasting time with a narssistic person like yourself whose access is only google and Internet, and who thinks others go to google to impress your highness.

Anyway, I do thank you for search on google, there is world beyond it too.

Anil

re:#393 by anil
From Wikepedia, i learnt that he was born in a Kuruba non-brahmin caste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalidasa). And so, only to reinforce my belief, here is one of the greatest sanskrit writer and poet (and at par with Shakespear) who was not a brahmin!
You told the rest of the story but conveniently did not mention this fact that he was not a brahmin!
Here is the rest from wikepedia (He was known for his beauty and innocence and was a shepherd by profession. He was lured into marrying a local princess, but, as legend has it, she was ashamed of his uneducated ignorance and coarseness. A devoted worshipper of the goddess Kali, Kalidasa is said to have called upon the goddess for help and was rewarded with a sudden and extraordinary gift of wit and wealth. He is then said to have become the most brilliant of the ``nine gems`` at the court of the king Vikramaditya of Ujjain.)
A tamil film by same name has that great actor Shivaji Ganeshan in the lead role as Kaildasa. I think legend also has it that Kalidasa (a name he assumed after he became famous as a poet ;name literally means ``servant of Goddess Kali``) who was turned out of the house by his wife because she felt insulted she was duped into marrying an illiterare, returns home one day and seeks permission from his wife to enter the house. His wife refuses to believe that Kalidasa and her husband are one and the same. To convince her, it is said he composed a poem then and there!
Sridhar

re:#395 by anil
You keep persisting in your idiotic notions, much like Romair does.
Look up Nalanda and see what the medium of instruction was. Nalanda was a buddhist university for post-graduate studies. I think Hiun Tsan was once its vice-chancellor. It was open to non-buddhists too.
Sanskrit was the language of the educated for most of India`s recorded history (of 5000 years).

Once buddhism waned from India (due to a number of causes), sanskrit did become the preserve of the educated hindu elite of India, of which the brahmins formed a large majority. As muslim rule spread, sanskrit became confined to a small minority. Brahmins were obsessed with preserving the scriptures, much of it being in sanskrit. It is easy to have the misconception from the present state of affairs that only brahmins spoke this language even in the past but that is not the truth. You may perhaps know that writers of both Ramayana (Valmiki who is today claimed by the valmiki caste of hindus as their Guru!) and Mahabharata (Sage Vyasa born to Parashara and a fisherwoman) were both not brahmins.
Sridhar

Re: # 385

Pardesi:

Yes, it is generally, despite the best efforts of King Vikramaditya of Ujjain, Sanskrit could not become the language of the masses. Rigid grammar, and uchaaran rules kept Sanskrit confined to royal court, and elite brahmins. The timing of Sanskrit grammar and arrival of Buddhism are quite close.

Therefore, many have speculated that Sanskrit was designed by intellectual brahmins to keep the knowledge confined to them, who would then impart it in peace meal to others. Later, as had been the case with Christianity, where Jesuits controlled the religious scriptures, until the printing press arrived. While Jesuits, I suppose, only controlled religious thoughts, if this speculation by many is true, brahmins were trying to control knowledge about the entire society - war, court, economic etc. That probably was the reason brahminism was contemporaneously thrown out of India.

Anil

Re: # 386

Mannyd:

This is what is said about Panini:

``Panini was born in Shalatula, a town near to Attock on the Indus river in present day Pakistan. The dates given for Panini are pure guesses. Experts give dates in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th century BC and there is also no agreement among historians about the extent of the work which he undertook. What is in little doubt is that, given the period in which he worked, he is one of the most innovative people in the whole development of knowledge. We will say a little more below about how historians have gone about trying to pinpoint the date when Panini lived.

Panini was a Sanskrit grammarian who gave a comprehensive and scientific theory of phonetics, phonology, and morphology. Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. It is interesting to note that the word ``Sanskrit`` means ``complete`` or ``perfect`` and it was thought of as the divine language, or language of the gods.

A treatise called Astadhyayi (or Astaka ) is Panini`s major work. It consists of eight chapters, each subdivided into quarter chapters. In this work Panini distinguishes between the language of sacred texts and the usual language of communication. Panini gives formal production rules and definitions to describe Sanskrit grammar. Starting with about 1700 basic elements like nouns, verbs, vowels, consonants he put them into classes. The construction of sentences, compound nouns etc. is explained as ordered rules operating on underlying structures in a manner similar to modern theory. In many ways Panini`s constructions are similar to the way that a mathematical function is defined today. Joseph writes in [2]:-

[Sanskrit`s] potential for scientific use was greatly enhanced as a result of the thorough systemisation of its grammar by Panini. ... On the basis of just under 4000 sutras [rules expressed as aphorisms], he built virtually the whole structure of the Sanskrit language, whose general `shape` hardly changed for the next two thousand years. ... An indirect consequence of Panini`s efforts to increase the linguistic facility of Sanskrit soon became apparent in the character of scientific and mathematical literature. This may be brought out by comparing the grammar of Sanskrit with the geometry of Euclid - a particularly apposite comparison since, whereas mathematics grew out of philosophy in ancient Greece, it was ... partly an outcome of linguistic developments in India.

Joseph goes on to make a convincing argument for the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence of the structure of the Sanskrit language. In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language.

Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini`s notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today`s theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.``

Riga Veda (oldest of the Vedas) has not been dated properly therefore, it is hard to say what came first. I have not read or studied Rig Veda, but I am told it is collection of description of journey, and a travelogue. The style of writing these people asserted shows that Riga Veda was compiled over a long period of time.

Anil

Re: # 386

Mannyd:

This is what I found through google on Kalidasa.

``An Indian poet and dramatist, Kalidasa lived sometime between the reign of Agnimitra, the second Shunga king (c. 170 BC) who was the hero of one of his dramas, and the Aihole inscription of AD 634 which praises Kalidasa`s poetic skills. Most scholars now associate him with the reign of Candra Gupta II (reigned c. 380-c. 415).

Little is known about Kalidasa`s life. According to legend, the poet was known for his beauty which brought him to the attention of a princess who married him. However, as legend has it, Kalidasa had grown up without much education, and the princess was ashamed of his ignorance and coarseness. A devoted worshipper of the goddess Kali (his name means literally Kali`s slave), Kalidasa is said to have called upon his goddess for help and was rewarded with a sudden and extraordinary gift of wit. He is then said to have become the most brilliant of the ``nine gems`` at the court of the fabulous king Vikramaditya of Ujjain. Legend also has it that he was murdered by a courtesan in Sri Lanka during the reign of Kumaradasa.``

Anil

re:#386 by mannyd
The following is an interesting article (about AIT) that appeared in an Indian newspaper sometime ago.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=jain%2Fjain35%2Etxt&writer=jain
Excerpts:
(In October 2003, California State University, (CA), USA, held a conference on ``The Rise of Civilisation in the Greater Indus Valley and Saraswati: Recent Interpretations.``

The participants included Prof BB Lal, former Director-General, ASI; Mr Iravatham Mahad evan, expert on Harappan and Tamil Brahmi scripts; Left academic Dr Shireen Ratnakar; Dr Vasant Shinde and Dr Gregory Possehl who are excavating Gilund in Rajasthan; anthropologists Dr Steve Farmer and Dr Brian Hemphill who have worked on archaeological evidence through skeletal remains; Prof Jonathan Mark Kenoyer and Dr Richard Meadow who have worked extensively on Harappa sites; Prof DR Sar Desai, University of California, Los Angeles; Prof Ihsan Ali, University of Peshawar, Pakistan; and Prof Kaminsky.

The conference proved to be epochal as academics arrived at a consensus on the ``End of the Aryan invasion theory``. Its moderator, Dr Sar Desai, declared that future writings on Indian history would assert that there was no Aryan invasion of India. The organiser, Prof Kaminsky, was authorised to get in touch with authors of Indian history textbooks and introduce this consensus at the secondary and high school level, where falsehoods are still being perpetuated.

Prof Kenoyer contacted publishers of school textbooks in New York to revise the issue of the Aryans and Vedic-Harappan culture in American school textbooks. In fact, the conference organisers have written to school level educational institutions all over the world, including the NCERT in India.

The belated dismissal of the Aryan invasion theory is no small triumph of the Hindu civilisational memory of a continuous spiritual-cultural tradition beginning with the Vedas and centred round the region of the once mighty river, Saraswati. Hindus have no memory of a pre-Vedic past, and have always maintained that the term ``Arya`` simply meant ``noble``, and denoted adherence to an elevated culture with no ethnic connotations. It was Sir William Jones who misrepresented Vedic allegories and conjured up the Aryan race by Immaculate Conception-a seedless parenthood, that is to say, one without any foundation. Yet his colonial brethren embraced the spurious offspring with the fervour of new converts; the rest is history.)
Sridhar

Wow, deep debate, and even deeper differences! Remarkable, else people would have mistakenly taken us for clones of one another. :) :)

The discussion has spread far beyond my ken. So, I will stay respectfully silent, keep my mouth tightly shut, and my ears wide open, ;)

DM: `I repeat that a remark against a gender-biased custom, which karva chauth certainly is, does not mean hindu-bashing.`

Thanks DM sahib, you are a gentleman and a diplomat. Of course I was wrong. I had forgotton that Hopi Indians, Kalahari Bushmen and icelanders celebrate karua Chauth too.
Yes call it male-bashing, Punjabi Hindu male-bashing, Manny-bashing or plain Ratabugga slicing, whatever you like.

Even if it were Hindu-bashing Hinduism will withstand Zahra`s rants. If it does not, that is fine too.)

But is Karua Chauth really more inhumane than Maula Jat?



``>

`While I do not know you personally, and cannot vouch for your personal traits, I think upon reflection you`ll agree with me that this statement is as asinine as it gets.`

No, I think I could easily say far more asinine things.
It was more of a speculative question. No skin off my nose if the Aryans came from Timbaktu.

`You could have a slighty inaccurate self-image, you know.`

LOL..was that an insult? I am not smart enough to know. Heck if I had read Panini, I would have known that right away.

My self image has no bearing on you three guys fighting each other with such gusto. Just read all the posts again and then shake hands and be friends.

#386 by mannyd


[Ajeya: The AIT may be true or not. However languages can also spread from Universities. Takhshila and Nalanda were two great universities that had thousands of resident students from all over the world. That may be one way Sanskrit had an influence on European languages. Of course the white folks will deny that.]


While I do not know you personally, and cannot vouch for your personal traits, I think upon reflection you`ll agree with me that this statement is as asinine as it gets.

The similarities between the North Indian Languages and the European languages pre-date Takshila and Nalanda by many THOUSANDS of years.

Instead of taking random guesses on subjects that scholars spend their lifetimes studying, why don`t you take the trouble to study the matter a little bit before commenting on these things, if you really have to comment.

The much better option, of course, would be to give a wide berth to subjects you have not researched much, but most folks on Chowk do not seem to like this option.

#386 by mannyd


[Rsridhar, Anil, Ajeya:

Put three Brahmins in one room and you get three point of views and all three squeezing each other`s throats. ]


You have the distinct air of an eminent scientist inspecting microbes on a petri dish.

You could have a slighty inaccurate self-image, you know.

Rsridhar, Anil, Ajeya:

Put three Brahmins in one room and you get three point of views and all three squeezing each other`s throats. Since I do not know Sanskrit at all, I find your discussions and all the posts very interesting.

Anil: I am trying to get an idea on the time frame when Panini and Kalidas came along. The Vedas are probably the oldest books in the world. If you have read them are they grammatically correct per Panini? Shishapa` post 380 has intrigued me too for a while. So who is right here? Is G in Gian a hard G or a soft J sound? Did Prof Dahl learn the Sanskrit language and Grammar or did he rely on you? What was your point about Bankim Chander and Sri Arubindo? I did not follow that at all.

Rsridhar: Of all the Chowk Pundits you are unique, because you also know Tamil. How did the Prakrits` grammar deviate from Panini`s? It will be interesting to look into Sinhalese grammar, since that seems to have been frozen in time. It was very heartening to know that there are Sanskrit literate people in karnatak and it was a spoken language until the nineteenth century. Thanks for confirming again that Urdu is spoken by only 8% of people in Pakistan. When you find time, please do follow up on the DNA and AIT in future.

Ajeya: The AIT may be true or not. However languages can also spread from Universities. Takhshila and Nalanda were two great universities that had thousands of resident students from all over the world. That may be one way Sanskrit had an influence on European languages. Of course the white folks will deny that.

Pardesi: It is said that Guru Nanak was a scholar of Vedas and his family name was Bedi, because they kept the holy texts in safe keeping. Sawami Dayanand was nitpicking that the Sanskrit in Granth Sahib was not pure, something the Chowk Pundits can not agree on even today. LOL..