Culture Cloning

Re: # 333

Dost-mittar

But what the women, especially the Punjabi middle class house wives, themselves generally complain about is epitomised in a cliche: ``Dinne chulla te raatein lulla``, Bismillah, Inshallah, Mashallah.

Anil (response to #377)

1. Chowk isnt exactly filled with people who have read or have interest in scholarship.

2. In your posting on Sanskrit, while you are on the right track, you end up making
a bunch of wrong statements as well. This is not so much as to correct you as to
be able to inform and then have a logical rational discussion.

a) You said there are 80 sutras in Samskritam. I presume you mistook the
`ashtadhyayi` of Panini. It is 8 chapters (Ashtadhyayi means 8 chapters)
containing approx 4000 rules. Yes. It is in the so called Backus-Naur form.

b) The so called Subject Object Verb order is not fixed in Samskritam. It could
potentially be in any order. There are certain exceptions in Samskritam also.
Also, Panini does not cover some of the `vaidika` (i.e from the vedas) forms.

c) There is no common ``North-Indian`` uccharan - A maithili speakin person
differs from a braj-basha speaking person to a punjabi speaker to a
rajasthani speaker etc.

d) Samskritam is not only about so called classical topics, law, medicine etc.
There are puzzles (prahelika) , jokes, subhashita`s etc. Recently there have
even been songs in Samskritam.

Finally, its good to know that you have atleast spent some time trying to learn
about Samskritam.

Regards,

Sridhar:

``Listen u idiot! ``
is the only answer you gave to my question on how to address you. I do not need to address you with this salutation, this you are doing it to yourself. You do not need my help, and I cannot do it. Please do tell me which part of the following that your brain full of profanity does not understand. May be clean profanities out of your brain, and make some room for knowledge.

``Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. ``

``Joseph goes on to make a convincing argument for the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence of the structure of the Sanskrit language. In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language.``

``Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal {sic. should be ``Naur``} Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini`s notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today`s theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.``

The conservatism of South Indian brahmins has been the biggest obstacle among the literate people to change, and lead efforts to throw caste system away. South Indian brahmins in South Indian temples are the biggest bigots. You are the people who still do not let others enter parts of temple, not let others drink from certain village wells,, and let all kids sit in the class together. Why are you forgeting the conversion rate in the South. Why are you forgeting that South Indian brahmin dominated, Congress Party has not come to power in Tamlnadu after 1960`s.

Please do not gloat about IT which you do not know once again. It would be more like me calling you what I do not want to call you.

Believe it or not entreprenuerism from North and the synergy between North and South India are responsible for IT boost. Let me just say that I do not want to shock you by my credentials in this area. Also, it was Nehru`s vision to have electronic Industry in Bangalore.

Please do not jump and get overly excited as IT being South India phenomenon. Whole of India is on a good game plan. Please keep your emotions and lack of knowledge out, and thus do not destroy the game plan that you know nothing. Such statements and jump into profanity seem full of emotions to intelligent people. If your are in your 40s, and Ajeya is in his 20s, then you must have had time to cool down your testasterones.

Please go and do something about opening the temple doors, wells for all Indians, and make all students sit in the school together, rather than beat them up and throw them out of jobs when they convert. Only then come and stake a claim or call some one names. You certainly have given yourself a very good adjective - South Indian brahmin snob. I did not give you this adjective, please note.

Your lack of knowledge of Sanskrit grammar and understanding of its development is obvious. Will you please care to explain why you do not find the difference between students of world famous Nalanda and masses? This is certainly not an issue about Sanskrit, it is an issue about social structure.

Btw, my point and almost unanumously accepted view, has been that Sanskrit could never become the language of the masses?

In the past I have mostly igonored your responses to my postings.

You might recall (if cannot, please go through all the posts here) that you injected with profanity to my message to Ajeya to stop profanity. Was that your superiority complex of a South Indian brahmin snop that makes you feel you have license to use profanity? I know South Indians who never use profanity, likewise I know Punjabis who always use profanity.

Ajeya (please read his posts) had mentioned that he may want to understand Sanskrit grammar. I have a feeling your South India brahmin superiority was hit hard when you discovered someone other than you who also can talk on this subject. BTW, South Indian brahmin sahib, I do not need to cut-and-paste about Sanskrit grammar. If your knowledge of Sanskrit grammar is what you have shown so far, I can probably teach few things about Sanskrit grammar to your teacher too.

Any way physician sahib, do not loose your brain, and end up being your own patient. That would certainly be a disaster. You must accept that Sanskrit is not your forte, and it certainly is not the property of South India brahmins. However, please do increase your knowledge on Sanskrit, before you discusss this subject. It will save you embarrasment and you would not have to hide behind the profanities either. May be try a new year resolution, no profanity to hide behind, when caught.

BTW, good luck, and remember there is more to life than Google, and psychiatry.

Anil

Sridhar:

``Listen u idiot! ``
is the only answer you gave to my question on how to address you. I do not need to address you with this salutation, this you are doing it to yourself. You do not need my help, and I cannot do it. Please do tell me which part of the following that your brain full of profanity does not understand. May be clean profanities out of your brain, and make some room for knowledge.

``Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. ``

``Joseph goes on to make a convincing argument for the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence of the structure of the Sanskrit language. In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language.``

``Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal {sic. should be ``Naur``} Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini`s notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today`s theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.``

The conservatism of South Indian brahmins has been the biggest obstacle among the literate people to change, and lead efforts to throw caste system away. South Indian brahmins in South Indian temples are the biggest bigots. You are the people who still do not let others enter parts of temple, not let others drink from certain village wells,, and let all kids sit in the class together. Why are you forgeting the conversion rate in the South. Why are you forgeting that South Indian brahmin dominated, Congress Party has not come to power in Tamlnadu after 1960`s.

Please do not gloat about IT which you do not know once again. It would be more like me calling you what I do not want to call you.

Believe it or not entreprenuerism from North and the synergy between North and South India are responsible for IT boost. Let me just say that I do not want to shock you by my credentials in this area. Also, it was Nehru`s vision to have electronic Industry in Bangalore.

Please do not jump and get overly excited as IT being South India phenomenon. Whole of India is on a good game plan. Please keep your emotions and lack of knowledge out, and thus do not destroy the game plan that you know nothing. Such statements and jump into profanity seem full of emotions to intelligent people. If your are in your 40s, and Ajeya is in his 20s, then you must have had time to cool down your testasterones.

Please go and do something about opening the temple doors, wells for all Indians, and make all students sit in the school together, rather than beat them up and throw them out of jobs when they convert. Only then come and stake a claim or call some one names. You certainly have given yourself a very good adjective - South Indian brahmin snob. I did not give you this adjective, please note.

Your lack of knowledge of Sanskrit grammar and understanding of its development is obvious. Will you please care to explain why you do not find the difference between students of world famous Nalanda and masses? This is certainly not an issue about Sanskrit, it is an issue about social structure.

Btw, my point and almost unanumously accepted view, has been that Sanskrit could never become the language of the masses?

In the past I have mostly igonored your responses to my postings.

You might recall (if cannot, please go through all the posts here) that you injected with profanity to my message to Ajeya to stop profanity. Was that your superiority complex of a South Indian brahmin snop that makes you feel you have license to use profanity? I know South Indians who never use profanity, likewise I know Punjabis who always use profanity.

Ajeya (please read his posts) had mentioned that he may want to understand Sanskrit grammar. I have a feeling your South India brahmin superiority was hit hard when you discovered someone other than you who also can talk on this subject. BTW, South Indian brahmin sahib, I do not need to cut-and-paste about Sanskrit grammar. If your knowledge of Sanskrit grammar is what you have shown so far, I can probably teach few things about Sanskrit grammar to your teacher too.

Any way physician sahib, do not loose your brain, and end up being your own patient. That would certainly be a disaster. You must accept that Sanskrit is not your forte, and it certainly is not the property of South India brahmins. However, please do increase your knowledge on Sanskrit, before you discusss this subject. It will save you embarrasment and you would not have to hide behind the profanities either. May be try a new year resolution, no profanity to hide behind, when caught.

BTW, good luck, and remember there is more to life than Google, and psychiatry.

Anil

re: Anil`s various posts
This guy seems to have concluded various aspects of my personality just by reading my posts!
Just because i was defending some issue wrt sanskrit, this guy concluded in one of his posts that i was emotional about sanskrit. Well, then he can also, by the same token, accuse me of being emotional about urdu and tamil as well because i have defended these languages at various forums.
Then this guy goes on to accuse me of being a south indian brahmin snob! That too from just reading my posts!
One wonders if this guy has a logical reasoning capability at all.
Sridhar

re: post # 396

(Please do learn Sanskrit grammar, it is interesting and quite easy.)
I was taught sanskrit by a very learned person in school. What little i remeber i cherish. My basics are very good. I do not need your advice. Cutting and pasting something from website is not a proof of knowing anything. I doubt if u even have a rudimentary knowledge of that language.
Sridhar

may i please request that insults be delivered in chaste sanskrit? ;-)

re:#398 by anil
Listen u idiot!
I live in US, am a proud US citizen and am a humble being doing my work as a physician. I am proud of what i am. What made u think i am not proud of my heritage! My forefathers have given much to make India a better place.
I am proud but do not have this superiority complex that u talk about. This is uniquely a North Indian trait. That is why all race riots happen in Bihar, UP etc. Brahmins of south have accepted the new realities and have moved into newer avenues including business, IT etc. Many of my cousins are married to non-brahmins. I think i talked about these in my posts in another forum.
It would be good if u change yourself rather than trying to change the world!
Sridhar
P.S: profanities are reserved for those who deserve it.

re:#399 by anil
You do not seem to understand my posts at all and are in a world of your own, much like Romair. You rival with him in being the chowk`s idiot.
Sridhar

re:#400 by jang
One of the great tragedies of education in India is that students are unable to read old classics in their original language (sanskrit) because sanksrit as a conversational language is having hard time keeping itself alive.
All classic texts have been translated into english and most of them are on line including Kalidasa`s work.
Sridhar

#405 Anil

My son went through same experience (Columbia undergrad ’03) that you discussed.

Apart from personal growth, another reason good schools mandate liberal arts courses for everyone is to insure that you get broader understanding of the society you live in and the one you will hopefully improve. In order to do that one must understand why people react certain ways, what are their cultural and historical biases and thus how would you apply all the learning (technical or otherwise) to the real world. Education for the sake of a super duper degree is not very useful. They want to produce leaders and not just followers.

http://hindinest.com/sahitya/02355.htm

here is a translation of Meghdoot poem (along with the original) in Hindi..its in Devnagari. There is one sentence, which is puzzling..sanskrit buffs?

Dynataswado vivrutam jangahanam ko vihattum samarthahan

(loose translation in hindi i think...``who will give-up a ughare-janghon wala lover`` ;-)

Re: # 400

Jang:

Good point. In the U.S. undergraduate college students must take 51 (that is what my daughters took) credit units as general enducation. They have freedom to choose the subjects they are interested. I did not see any handicap in my daughter after she graduated from Columbia University, on the contrary I saw her broadened horizon.

There is so much Indian college students can learn by spending one additional year in the college and take general education courses. The courses can range from heritage, classical India languages and literature to immersion in modern Indian languages, economics, political science to public speaking. In the early 20`s students have far more capabilities and less prejudices to grasp and learn. I always had the curiosity to learn about Sanskrit and social sciences, but had to wait till I came out of India to study these. Out of the box and lateral thinking matures as a result, this helps overcome prejudices that may easily form due to narrow thinking.

Anil

Re: # 402

Bible old testament is NOT in the same league as Meghdoot... I mean - the former is a religious book.....

But point taken..... College courses in India rarely offer opportunities to study into classical past of the country and the civilization.... people blame it on the commie/socialist agenda :)

Re: # 396

Sridhar:

You seem to have penchant for profanity. Draw a timeline and see for yourself, also please use your brain for other than profanity. Please do learn Sanskrit grammar, it is interesting and quite easy.

Also ancient hindu society never limited movement of people from one caste to the other. Get rid of this superiority complex of being a South Indian brahmin. Your kind of attitude has caused enough problems for India.

I am least interested in wasting time with a narssistic person like yourself whose access is only google and Internet, and who thinks others go to google to impress your highness.

Anyway, I do thank you for search on google, there is world beyond it too.

Anil

#401 i am comparing 4 year college westerners to 4 year college indians...or 8 year to 8 year, not averrage joes. even there, average joe will have a better knowledge of the bible old testament.

Re: # 400
[.....many chinese having actually read art of war, or westerners knowledge of trojans...]

Don`t know about the chinese - but ``westerners`` knowledge about the classics is confined to academia and the elite - average joe knows squat :) Percent-wise that may be higher than Indians who know their classics .....

The difference is the private sponsorship of such studies at the highest level - the study of classics have been greatly institutionalized and hence good research is carried out.... In contrast - there is virtually no such thing happening in india - primarily because - until now - Indians at large never had money to sponsor such ventures .... or those who have money were not interested in this stuff anyway....

Things may change down the line - with so many millionaires popping up these days - soon people interested in such research into the India`s classical past may find sponsors.....

The reality is, all this chest-puffing notwithstanding, maybe 0.0001% of highly educated (i mean 12+8 years kind) indians cant tell the plot-line of Meghdoot by kalidasa or list the titles of plays by Bhavbhuti (crying eye icon) and whatever they know would be from wikipedia (showing teeth icon).

contrast that with so many chinese having actually read art of war, or westerners knowledge of trojans (no not the USC or lubricated ones) and the bible old-testament or shakespere..this shows that sanskrit is dead-meat, and have been so for a long time. brahmins tried to keep it alive, (some with questinable ucchar) and others apparently were just plain lazy ;-) and blame the brahmins for it, go figure.

chinese picture script has meaning transmission built-into, i.e. it is geography and time invariant. so a book written long ago can be read later or at a different part of china with same meaning. that is a powerful characteristic which unifies china geographicaly as well as a seemingly timelss civilization.

Re: # 396

Sridhar:

I do not know what to call a person, who cannot differentiate between the masses and students of world famous educational institutions. Think about it and let me how would you like to be addressed.

Anil

Re: # 396

Sridhar:

You seem to have penchant for profanity. Draw a timeline and see for yourself, also please use your brain for other than profanity. Please do learn Sanskrit grammar, it is interesting and quite easy.

Also ancient hindu society never limited movement of people from one caste to the other. Get rid of this superiority complex of being a South Indian brahmin. Your kind of attitude has caused enough problems for India.

I am least interested in wasting time with a narssistic person like yourself whose access is only google and Internet, and who thinks others go to google to impress your highness.

Anyway, I do thank you for search on google, there is world beyond it too.

Anil

re:#393 by anil
From Wikepedia, i learnt that he was born in a Kuruba non-brahmin caste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalidasa). And so, only to reinforce my belief, here is one of the greatest sanskrit writer and poet (and at par with Shakespear) who was not a brahmin!
You told the rest of the story but conveniently did not mention this fact that he was not a brahmin!
Here is the rest from wikepedia (He was known for his beauty and innocence and was a shepherd by profession. He was lured into marrying a local princess, but, as legend has it, she was ashamed of his uneducated ignorance and coarseness. A devoted worshipper of the goddess Kali, Kalidasa is said to have called upon the goddess for help and was rewarded with a sudden and extraordinary gift of wit and wealth. He is then said to have become the most brilliant of the ``nine gems`` at the court of the king Vikramaditya of Ujjain.)
A tamil film by same name has that great actor Shivaji Ganeshan in the lead role as Kaildasa. I think legend also has it that Kalidasa (a name he assumed after he became famous as a poet ;name literally means ``servant of Goddess Kali``) who was turned out of the house by his wife because she felt insulted she was duped into marrying an illiterare, returns home one day and seeks permission from his wife to enter the house. His wife refuses to believe that Kalidasa and her husband are one and the same. To convince her, it is said he composed a poem then and there!
Sridhar

re:#395 by anil
You keep persisting in your idiotic notions, much like Romair does.
Look up Nalanda and see what the medium of instruction was. Nalanda was a buddhist university for post-graduate studies. I think Hiun Tsan was once its vice-chancellor. It was open to non-buddhists too.
Sanskrit was the language of the educated for most of India`s recorded history (of 5000 years).

Once buddhism waned from India (due to a number of causes), sanskrit did become the preserve of the educated hindu elite of India, of which the brahmins formed a large majority. As muslim rule spread, sanskrit became confined to a small minority. Brahmins were obsessed with preserving the scriptures, much of it being in sanskrit. It is easy to have the misconception from the present state of affairs that only brahmins spoke this language even in the past but that is not the truth. You may perhaps know that writers of both Ramayana (Valmiki who is today claimed by the valmiki caste of hindus as their Guru!) and Mahabharata (Sage Vyasa born to Parashara and a fisherwoman) were both not brahmins.
Sridhar

Re: # 385

Pardesi:

Yes, it is generally, despite the best efforts of King Vikramaditya of Ujjain, Sanskrit could not become the language of the masses. Rigid grammar, and uchaaran rules kept Sanskrit confined to royal court, and elite brahmins. The timing of Sanskrit grammar and arrival of Buddhism are quite close.

Therefore, many have speculated that Sanskrit was designed by intellectual brahmins to keep the knowledge confined to them, who would then impart it in peace meal to others. Later, as had been the case with Christianity, where Jesuits controlled the religious scriptures, until the printing press arrived. While Jesuits, I suppose, only controlled religious thoughts, if this speculation by many is true, brahmins were trying to control knowledge about the entire society - war, court, economic etc. That probably was the reason brahminism was contemporaneously thrown out of India.

Anil

Re: # 386

Mannyd:

This is what is said about Panini:

``Panini was born in Shalatula, a town near to Attock on the Indus river in present day Pakistan. The dates given for Panini are pure guesses. Experts give dates in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th century BC and there is also no agreement among historians about the extent of the work which he undertook. What is in little doubt is that, given the period in which he worked, he is one of the most innovative people in the whole development of knowledge. We will say a little more below about how historians have gone about trying to pinpoint the date when Panini lived.

Panini was a Sanskrit grammarian who gave a comprehensive and scientific theory of phonetics, phonology, and morphology. Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. It is interesting to note that the word ``Sanskrit`` means ``complete`` or ``perfect`` and it was thought of as the divine language, or language of the gods.

A treatise called Astadhyayi (or Astaka ) is Panini`s major work. It consists of eight chapters, each subdivided into quarter chapters. In this work Panini distinguishes between the language of sacred texts and the usual language of communication. Panini gives formal production rules and definitions to describe Sanskrit grammar. Starting with about 1700 basic elements like nouns, verbs, vowels, consonants he put them into classes. The construction of sentences, compound nouns etc. is explained as ordered rules operating on underlying structures in a manner similar to modern theory. In many ways Panini`s constructions are similar to the way that a mathematical function is defined today. Joseph writes in [2]:-

[Sanskrit`s] potential for scientific use was greatly enhanced as a result of the thorough systemisation of its grammar by Panini. ... On the basis of just under 4000 sutras [rules expressed as aphorisms], he built virtually the whole structure of the Sanskrit language, whose general `shape` hardly changed for the next two thousand years. ... An indirect consequence of Panini`s efforts to increase the linguistic facility of Sanskrit soon became apparent in the character of scientific and mathematical literature. This may be brought out by comparing the grammar of Sanskrit with the geometry of Euclid - a particularly apposite comparison since, whereas mathematics grew out of philosophy in ancient Greece, it was ... partly an outcome of linguistic developments in India.

Joseph goes on to make a convincing argument for the algebraic nature of Indian mathematics arising as a consequence of the structure of the Sanskrit language. In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language.

Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini`s notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today`s theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.``

Riga Veda (oldest of the Vedas) has not been dated properly therefore, it is hard to say what came first. I have not read or studied Rig Veda, but I am told it is collection of description of journey, and a travelogue. The style of writing these people asserted shows that Riga Veda was compiled over a long period of time.

Anil

Re: # 386

Mannyd:

This is what I found through google on Kalidasa.

``An Indian poet and dramatist, Kalidasa lived sometime between the reign of Agnimitra, the second Shunga king (c. 170 BC) who was the hero of one of his dramas, and the Aihole inscription of AD 634 which praises Kalidasa`s poetic skills. Most scholars now associate him with the reign of Candra Gupta II (reigned c. 380-c. 415).

Little is known about Kalidasa`s life. According to legend, the poet was known for his beauty which brought him to the attention of a princess who married him. However, as legend has it, Kalidasa had grown up without much education, and the princess was ashamed of his ignorance and coarseness. A devoted worshipper of the goddess Kali (his name means literally Kali`s slave), Kalidasa is said to have called upon his goddess for help and was rewarded with a sudden and extraordinary gift of wit. He is then said to have become the most brilliant of the ``nine gems`` at the court of the fabulous king Vikramaditya of Ujjain. Legend also has it that he was murdered by a courtesan in Sri Lanka during the reign of Kumaradasa.``

Anil

re:#386 by mannyd
The following is an interesting article (about AIT) that appeared in an Indian newspaper sometime ago.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=jain%2Fjain35%2Etxt&writer=jain
Excerpts:
(In October 2003, California State University, (CA), USA, held a conference on ``The Rise of Civilisation in the Greater Indus Valley and Saraswati: Recent Interpretations.``

The participants included Prof BB Lal, former Director-General, ASI; Mr Iravatham Mahad evan, expert on Harappan and Tamil Brahmi scripts; Left academic Dr Shireen Ratnakar; Dr Vasant Shinde and Dr Gregory Possehl who are excavating Gilund in Rajasthan; anthropologists Dr Steve Farmer and Dr Brian Hemphill who have worked on archaeological evidence through skeletal remains; Prof Jonathan Mark Kenoyer and Dr Richard Meadow who have worked extensively on Harappa sites; Prof DR Sar Desai, University of California, Los Angeles; Prof Ihsan Ali, University of Peshawar, Pakistan; and Prof Kaminsky.

The conference proved to be epochal as academics arrived at a consensus on the ``End of the Aryan invasion theory``. Its moderator, Dr Sar Desai, declared that future writings on Indian history would assert that there was no Aryan invasion of India. The organiser, Prof Kaminsky, was authorised to get in touch with authors of Indian history textbooks and introduce this consensus at the secondary and high school level, where falsehoods are still being perpetuated.

Prof Kenoyer contacted publishers of school textbooks in New York to revise the issue of the Aryans and Vedic-Harappan culture in American school textbooks. In fact, the conference organisers have written to school level educational institutions all over the world, including the NCERT in India.

The belated dismissal of the Aryan invasion theory is no small triumph of the Hindu civilisational memory of a continuous spiritual-cultural tradition beginning with the Vedas and centred round the region of the once mighty river, Saraswati. Hindus have no memory of a pre-Vedic past, and have always maintained that the term ``Arya`` simply meant ``noble``, and denoted adherence to an elevated culture with no ethnic connotations. It was Sir William Jones who misrepresented Vedic allegories and conjured up the Aryan race by Immaculate Conception-a seedless parenthood, that is to say, one without any foundation. Yet his colonial brethren embraced the spurious offspring with the fervour of new converts; the rest is history.)
Sridhar

Wow, deep debate, and even deeper differences! Remarkable, else people would have mistakenly taken us for clones of one another. :) :)

The discussion has spread far beyond my ken. So, I will stay respectfully silent, keep my mouth tightly shut, and my ears wide open, ;)

DM: `I repeat that a remark against a gender-biased custom, which karva chauth certainly is, does not mean hindu-bashing.`

Thanks DM sahib, you are a gentleman and a diplomat. Of course I was wrong. I had forgotton that Hopi Indians, Kalahari Bushmen and icelanders celebrate karua Chauth too.
Yes call it male-bashing, Punjabi Hindu male-bashing, Manny-bashing or plain Ratabugga slicing, whatever you like.

Even if it were Hindu-bashing Hinduism will withstand Zahra`s rants. If it does not, that is fine too.)

But is Karua Chauth really more inhumane than Maula Jat?



``>

`While I do not know you personally, and cannot vouch for your personal traits, I think upon reflection you`ll agree with me that this statement is as asinine as it gets.`

No, I think I could easily say far more asinine things.
It was more of a speculative question. No skin off my nose if the Aryans came from Timbaktu.

`You could have a slighty inaccurate self-image, you know.`

LOL..was that an insult? I am not smart enough to know. Heck if I had read Panini, I would have known that right away.

My self image has no bearing on you three guys fighting each other with such gusto. Just read all the posts again and then shake hands and be friends.

#386 by mannyd


[Ajeya: The AIT may be true or not. However languages can also spread from Universities. Takhshila and Nalanda were two great universities that had thousands of resident students from all over the world. That may be one way Sanskrit had an influence on European languages. Of course the white folks will deny that.]


While I do not know you personally, and cannot vouch for your personal traits, I think upon reflection you`ll agree with me that this statement is as asinine as it gets.

The similarities between the North Indian Languages and the European languages pre-date Takshila and Nalanda by many THOUSANDS of years.

Instead of taking random guesses on subjects that scholars spend their lifetimes studying, why don`t you take the trouble to study the matter a little bit before commenting on these things, if you really have to comment.

The much better option, of course, would be to give a wide berth to subjects you have not researched much, but most folks on Chowk do not seem to like this option.

#386 by mannyd


[Rsridhar, Anil, Ajeya:

Put three Brahmins in one room and you get three point of views and all three squeezing each other`s throats. ]


You have the distinct air of an eminent scientist inspecting microbes on a petri dish.

You could have a slighty inaccurate self-image, you know.

Rsridhar, Anil, Ajeya:

Put three Brahmins in one room and you get three point of views and all three squeezing each other`s throats. Since I do not know Sanskrit at all, I find your discussions and all the posts very interesting.

Anil: I am trying to get an idea on the time frame when Panini and Kalidas came along. The Vedas are probably the oldest books in the world. If you have read them are they grammatically correct per Panini? Shishapa` post 380 has intrigued me too for a while. So who is right here? Is G in Gian a hard G or a soft J sound? Did Prof Dahl learn the Sanskrit language and Grammar or did he rely on you? What was your point about Bankim Chander and Sri Arubindo? I did not follow that at all.

Rsridhar: Of all the Chowk Pundits you are unique, because you also know Tamil. How did the Prakrits` grammar deviate from Panini`s? It will be interesting to look into Sinhalese grammar, since that seems to have been frozen in time. It was very heartening to know that there are Sanskrit literate people in karnatak and it was a spoken language until the nineteenth century. Thanks for confirming again that Urdu is spoken by only 8% of people in Pakistan. When you find time, please do follow up on the DNA and AIT in future.

Ajeya: The AIT may be true or not. However languages can also spread from Universities. Takhshila and Nalanda were two great universities that had thousands of resident students from all over the world. That may be one way Sanskrit had an influence on European languages. Of course the white folks will deny that.

Pardesi: It is said that Guru Nanak was a scholar of Vedas and his family name was Bedi, because they kept the holy texts in safe keeping. Sawami Dayanand was nitpicking that the Sanskrit in Granth Sahib was not pure, something the Chowk Pundits can not agree on even today. LOL..

# 377 Anil

That post was quite impressive.

However, I am curious about impact of such perfection. If a language has such tight rules it would be great from automation point of view. However, could this have contributed in keeping most of the ordinary folks “illiterate” since they probably didn’t have time, capability or inclination to deal with very strict rules?

One of my Chinese friends once told me that there are a total of about 3000-3500 symbols, self contained word(s), in mandarin. Even educated folks could use only 700-800 of them and ordinary people can barely write 300 or so. His point was that to be an English literate, one need to know small number of alphabets, while in their language, the literature and court dealings became province of only a chosen few and that contributed to keeping most of the folks “enslaved” to the aristocracy.

As I think back, I am not sure how far he was correct since Chinese are doing great on literacy front now using the same language.

Any opinion on this since you seem to know so much about languages :)?

re: Sindhi, Urdu controversy?
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=439060

(..nobody can deny that though Urdu is the mother tongue of only 7.5 percent Pakistanis, the language has now become the lingua franca in Pakistan - from Karachi to the Khyber. Sindhis, Punjabis, Seraikis, Pushtuns and the Baluch speak this language fluently. There is thus no opposition to the status of Urdu, but resistance is seen when Urdu is used to bulldoze the regional languages.



Sindhis are passionately attached to their language and culture. They have always resisted the suppression of their language by Urdu-speaking settlers, who till today are called muhajirs or refugees. Muhajirs were the first rulers of Pakistan. They made Karachi Pakistan`s first capital, from where Sindhi was all but banished. Muhajirs controlled Sindh`s second largest city, Hyderabad, too. Sindhis complained that they were being made ``Red Indians`` in their own province.)
Sridhar

re: Anil`s various
Whatever, whatever.
Just end this charade and stupidity, will u?
Sridhar

Re: # 378

Sridhar:

Seemingly you are quite narscissitic to think that I have to impress you.

Any way if it pleases you to know that I studied Sanskrit not only when my father and grandfather, but in early 80`s, I also led an effort to design computer programming language for a fortune 10 company at Stanford with Prof. O. J. Dahl. Prof. Dahl invented the data abstraction called ``Class`` which is now common in programming language. Infact, Prof. Dahl, and one more person joined my team effort that I led to include Class in programming language.

What I had just wrote for you and Ajeya is only a glimpse of grammar, and both human and computer programming languages work Prof. Dahl and I did. You seen to fancy yourself to much, it would not be an exaggeration if I tell you that I have hired and fired more people of your kind of psychiatric people in my life.

Please do get real, and understand the logic, facts and research that I am presenting. Otherwisse you might start having delusions that Panini and Kalidasa were really born after 19th century.

Sanskrit is a language quite dear to me. As I see to your heart. This does not mean your should get emotional. In fact, if it helps you, in mid 90`s, I have funded the effort by the goup in Karnataka to foster Sanskrit. There are some aspects of early Hindu thought process and clausal logic that evolved out Sanskrit interests me a lot, and I feel is relevant in present day also.

Anil

Re: # 378

Sridhar;

I am beginning to feel that probably I have studies more than you have and therefore, wasting time with you. Your knowledge of Sanskrit is limited to emotional attachment and are unable to see the reality. Therefore, you are blinded and are unable to see the difference between Bankim Chandra Chapptopadhaya`s bengali novel with a sanskrit poem Vande Matram in it, and Sri Arbindo`s discourses in Sanskrit, from common man thousands of year before, who did not speak Sanskrit, despite the best efforts of the court of Vikramaditya onward.

Genrally, I don`t discuss with people, who have short fuse for listening, and are unable to understand reason. I hope you will indeed do more research and study Sanskrit before you commit to discussions.

Anil

Re: # 377

I have always found it strange that in North Indian langauages, Dnya becomes gya
as in Pradnya becoming Pragya, Dnyan becoming gyan.
And Kru becoming Kri like Sanskrut becoming Sanskrit, Krushna becoming Krishna.
I think in South India, they will pronounce Kru and not Kri and Dnya and not gya.

re:#366 by Ajeya
Are u saying sanskrit split into many languages, hindi being one of them? I really do not understand your POV.
Sridhar

re:#376 by anil
I was saying that even up until 19th century, people who knew sanskrit well conversed in that language. Sri Aurobindo often gave speeches in sanskrit. Bankim wrote the memorable Vande mataram in sanskrit and he was just in his 20s.
Get over that court and romance stuff. I think u have very little knowledge of sanskrit and are now just quoting from the web sources to impress me.
Sridhar

Sridhar & Ajeya:

Sanskrit Grammar
There is much more to write about Sanskrit grammar, for now I want to share the following.

Human language have sentence as the main construct, just as computer languages have program as the main construct. The grammar is developed how the sentence can be formed in syntax and semantics. Sanskrit delivers more semantics through its syntax than anyother language that I know. This is where designers of Sanskrit spend more time to make its syntax precise, governed by rules, and context free. Context free allows a properly formed word though syntax to deliver the same meaning in any context.

English and other European languages, except German, have:

{Sentence} ::= {subject} {verb} {object} as the basic construction of the language.

In Sanskrit, the construction is:

{Sentence} ::= {subject} {object} {verb}

Freeing up verb from the middle allows Sanskrit great flexibility, and makes its grammar context free. It helps make single words to deliver complete meaning.

Panini enumerated rules to formalize Sanskrit grammar.

{verbs} have forms – past, present, and future, and singular, dual and plural.

Dual form is unique and is mainly used in reference to Purush (male) and Prakriti (female) union in romance and to address King and Queen, or other exalted couple.

There are precise rules to change each of the nine (9) forms that are possible for each verb. There are precise suffixes for each form. For example, Namaami mean by itself means, “I bow”, and nothing else. Verbs can also have proverbs as qualifier prefixes.

{subject} and {object} can be nouns and pronouns, with adjectives as prefix.

Again there are precise rules for masculine, feminine and neutral gender; past, present and future tense; and singular, dual and plural forms. For instance, Lata’s present one home, Lata’s previous two homes, and Lata’s future many homes, will use different suffixes but precisely defined for the name Lata. Similarly for the home when used as {object} in different context will have precisely defined suffixes.

The rules for sandhi (combining words) are well defined and precise. Since each noun and each pronoun when used as {subject} or {object} has precise and accurate rules to form in a complete context. Therefore, when fully formed{subject} and {object} are “sandhied” together they follow rules too, and are higher abstraction like “Class and Methods” in computer languages.

Metaphors, adjective, and proverbs can take their forms as well. If you read Kalidasa’s description of Stri, in Meghdoot, and flight of Cloud you will appreciate the beauty of this language. Some times one combined word describes everything.

In all, as I recall, there are about 80 sutras that define the entire Sanskrit grammar.

The problem comes in “uchaaran”, it is quite difficult to perfect. Ordinary person tend to break Sanskrit combined words into recognizable phonetic sound to speak out. Experts speaker tend to speak combined word including sandhis in entirety, without breaking it into constituent words. In Sanskrit there is big emphasis on ``uchaaran``, whether you go to a center in South India or North India where Sanskrit is taught, one can hear Sanskrit chants of the students.

North Indian “uchaaran” is recognized as flawed, because, it is greatly influenced by colloquial language, and inclusion of “apbhransa” (impure) words in colloquial languages. While Marathi and even South Indian Brahmin speakers have purer pronunciation, this fact is also well accepted. I have personal experience. I had met a Sanskrit scholar in Bangalore, and we were discussing this subject. He asked me recite a shloka from Gita, and I did. He then recited and I could hear the difference. He then wrote down the entire shloka and showed me how I was breaking up combined words and pronouncing and how he was pronouncing without breaking the sandhis of same words. He also pointed out how my breaking sandhis were influenced buy the Hindi phonetics.

No other human language has so precisely defined formal grammar (grammar for the grammar). The fact that Sanskrit has such precise formal grammar, and absence of colloquial, folk tales and songs, while there is presence of scriptures, classical literature, law, medicine, economics written in Sanskrit, indicates the extent and limit of its use.

Hindi has much smaller set of Sanskrit grammar rules, whereas Marathi has more Sanskrit grammar rules, especially related to “sandhis”. Uchaaran of spoken words in Marathi, is closer to words in Sanskrit, also. Marathi, has fewer “apbrahansa” Sanskrit words than Hindi. Thus it is much closer to Sanskrit.

Anil

Re: # 350

Sridhar:

Without calling you stupid, I wonder where did you get the link of 19th century to my point of Sanskrit being ``designed`` for court and romance. I hope you know Panini was born much before 19th century, and so was Kalidasa.

Anil

Re: # 364

``Women just desist from eating grains or cooked food but they are allowed to drink and eat certain foods. ``

i did say that in one of my earlier post.

l had a tamil friend (from Kalpakam, TN) who was working in TISCO, Pune. there he observed his marathi colleagues fasting every week. He told me that this fasting business was a big farce, as these people eat more food (fruits, sweet semollina) during lunch than on non-fasting days :)

mannyd:

I repeat that a remark against a gender-biased custom, which karva chauth certainly is, does not mean hindu-bashing.

As for the ball in the well story, I think that her reference was to the horrible events associated with that well.

And to top it all, she does not know the difference between `there` and `their`, does not know when to use a question mark, can not do a simple cut and paste to back her claim on `Advice and advise`, thinks laughing causes you to lose your brain and eye sight.

She ordered you once to forget the claim on a ball you lost in a well in Pakistan. I think once in her youth she laughed too hard and has been a blind twit ever since...LOL..
HAHAHAHHAHHA!

Dost Mittar: ` So, it is unfair to say that she is using just another stick to beat up on the hindus.`

Have you seen Pakistai movie Maula Jat? Do you remeber the flesh, blood, fat and gore flying around in the movie. This lady is saying that Karua Chauth creates more real life fiascos than Maula Jat. She is plain off her rocker.

Pakistanis, Bengla Deshis or Ceylonese do not celebrate Karua Chauth. Hindus do. She has interviewed her Hindu female friends( All five of them) and they are complaining to her instead of their husbands about this `cruel and inhumane practice`. Very strange group of friends.

She has been on Chowk for a number of years and has spoken against gender based inequities. Big deal. I am not impressed at all.

From what I can remember, she fasts during Ramdan, breaks her fast with a date, demands feminine napkins in Pakistani airports, goes into agony over touching a free bottle of wine and sends it back, thinks all governments should be replaced by corporations and looks down her nose at all Desi males. You want to mollycoddle this self centered arrogant female, please go ahead. I feel no urge or compulsion to do that.

Brave lady feminista ran away,
She tucked her tail and ran away
away, away, AWAY.

Go fly a kite, Feminista. I would rather go on ahunger strike than fast, specially on orders from a silly supercillious spoiled brat like you.

Re: # 367

I will be away for a few days and by the time I come back I will expect a nice note from you on this board, stating that you (provided this article is still up) have started fasting for your wife. I am sure that you will survive. Your system will thank the well overdue detox. If you don`t survive then you will be considered a martyr. Good Luck! The harmful elements in your system are blocking your senses to see the real issue - Your unwillingness to entertain the idea of change in your cultural practices is the real concern. Happy ``Male Kurva Chauth``.

mannyd:

Zahraj has been at chowk for a long time and she has consistently spoken against gender based inequities among desis, especially among Muslims and Pakistanis. So, it is unfair to say that she is using just another stick to beat up on the hindus.

ZahraJ:

These customs speak to our social realities. Among Punjabi hindus, when we touched our elders` feet, they would bless us by saying, ``Jeenda ro, vadiyaaN umraaN hoN`` (may you live long!). But when a woman touched their feet, they would bless her by saying, ``Suhaag banya rayee`` (may your husband outlive you!). This again spoke to the same reality, which was that the fate of a Hindu widow was worse than death. If you get a chance, you should see Deepa Mehta`s film, Water, which shows how miserable their lives were as recently as 1930s. On the other hand, a man could find another wife the day after the first one died, so the loss was not equally big. This is why there was no tradition for husband to fast for his wife`s long life.


Now that women are becoming ecomically independent and widow remarriage is not such a big deal, I see fewer elders giving the same blessings to women. And these customs might get modifed over time as well. There are some Punjabi women who now refuse to observe Karva Chauth fast and I have not seen any consequences to them or their marriage. The custom itself has changed. It is a lot less solemn and a lot more festive, just as, in some cases, iftaar has overtaken ramzaan fasting. And now, it has become customary for husbands to buy their wives an expensive gift on such occasion (and you thought I had asked my wife to stop observing fast only out of social consiousness. ;) ).

I have seen very few TV serials but, in my opinio, they are trying to promote a schizophrenic social picture. On the one hand, they seem to promote women as educated, confident, in business and professions; on the other hand, they seem to emphasise traditional hindu joint family, which is otherwise dying a natural death in India.

I have a somewhat different take on Rabia`s story. Marriage is a social contract and in a traditional subcontinental marriage, that contract includes families. When one gets into a traditional arranged marriage, one can reasonably expect one`s spouse to perform those traditional roles that are part of that social contract. If one feels that those traditional roles are unjust, as Rabia did, she should fight against those social roles at a societal level. At an individual level, she should have refused to go in for a traditional arranged marriage and, if she did, she should have told her in-laws, or at least her husband, before marriage, that she was against the traditional roles performed by the wife and also found them against Islamic teachings. If her husband disagreed, she should have refused to marry him.

SaimaShah #364: Well Rabia has an opinion and if she disses Hindu heritage, although not quite rational, it is fine with me. However for Zahra to demand Hindus to change their traditions or lie in their movies to please Rabia or protect poor Shaista is even more irrational. It is downright annoying.

ALthough Bollywood does not have too much intellect, it still costs money to produce the so called `intellectual properties`. None of the revenues from Pakistan goes back to the producers, who put their money on the line. Stealing is apparently OK in today`s world, but please at least do not dictate us what to produce.

Any new Hollywood movie appears within days as bootlegged DVD in Hongkong and within weeks in LA. Zahra`s demand is like the Chinese demanding Hollywood to tailor the contents of their movies to Chinese mores.

In any case Zahra was just exaggerating the cruelty of inhuman KC. It is just another stick to beat the Hindus with. Unfortunately for her, we Hindus have become so shameless that we just laugh it off. That bugs the lady even more.

Thanks for the info on Ramdan fasting. I am so glad I am not a Muslim.

#356 by rsridhar

[Hindi is derived from sanskrit but to say Hindi used to be sanskrit a one time is utter nonsense. ]

No, you are taking what I said out of context.

I gave the example of one language splitting into two (or more, of course), and transforming over time into two (or more) progenies. Like Sanskrit into the North Indian Languages (Hindi, Bengali, Urdu etc.).

I think you know that, but are just trying to muddy up the debate where there is really nothing to debate.

I think making a thousand pointless posts when the issue was never in any doubt by any linguist, is the actual nonsense.

Move on.


[Do u really know any sanskrit at all? The 2 are vastly different in grammar. ]

What I know seems to be more than enough to successfully debate any number of pundits on this forum, it seems to me.

So let`s not worry about whether I know Sanskrit.

If you feel that the two are ``vastly different`` in grammar, you should write a paper on this in one of the important journals on Linguistics. Should hit the Linguists like a ton of bricks.

Or better still, move on.

#355 by rsridhar

[re:#340 by Ajeya
You are probably not keeping current on the debate about AIT. It is a settled matter in academic circles. ]

Well if it is, it is news to me. Next time you have some spare time (like for example when you do multiple posts on this website), supply us with some supporting evidence.

The Rabia Alavi article quoted below, espousing the liberty of Islam for women:

``India has always been great at either shaking off foreign influences or effortlessly absorbing them.``

Agreed.

``In our case, many of the subcontinental Muslims converted from Hinduism had carried with them a nasty baggage of patriarchal practices –– an inevitable outcome of assimilation. Such practices naturally appealed to our already male-dominated society, especially to keep women in control. ``

Rabia should check out what Muslims got from the Arab culture before dissing the Hindu heritage. There are many emancipatory practices because of the Hindu heritage that I think we ought to celebrate and at least find out about. Muslims affected India as much as Hindus affected Muslims. This Hindu/Muslim divide in the subcontinent is artificial and only serves to reduce the present Muslim and Hindu`s heritage from both sides. Neither of the races/religions are `pure`. Who the heck wants to be? The time is ripe for the subcontinental people to devise a pragmatic political discourse without needing to compare contrast and/or bring Islam or India into it. Rabia could have said, I find it demeaning not to sit at the same table as the rest of the family. Simple. Why bring this whole caboodle of how them Hindu converts brought their culture into it?

Also, fasting for long life of husband isn`t a fast like the one in Ramadan. I am surprised no one pointed that out. Women just desist from eating grains or cooked food but they are allowed to drink and eat certain foods. Every family has a different tradition about what food is ok. It is a detox. Whether people fast for god or their husbands it has benefits that are more immediate.

`I do not enjoy communicating with uncouth and brazen clowns with little substance`.

No Zahra, you are just a spoiled brat and an irrational feminist to boot and must have your way with everyone otherwise you begin to call them names. Just learn to accept the world as having people who may be different than you. I am not a spokesman for `you guys`. So before you order me to `think before you speak`, remember that to do that yourself. Where did I misuse `advice and advise`? Do a cut and paste. Even you could do that, could you not?

It is true I have little substance, but you my dear have none at all.
Too much laughter causes one to lose brain and eye-sight? Who told you that? Is that why you are such a sour puss?

Thanks for your good hopes, but seems you really did not mean that, did you? Why is it a shame for me to enjoy good life?

If you are not married, I can only pity your future husband. If you are, my sincerest sympathies to him. Poor man.(

`I do not enjoy communicating with uncouth and brazen clowns with little substance`.

No Zahra, you are just a spoiled brat and an irrational feminist to boot and must have your way with everyone otherwise you begin to call them names. Just learn to accept the world as having people who may be different than you. I am not a spokesman for `you guys`. So before you order me to `think before you speak`, remember that to do that yourself. Where did I misuse `advice and advise`? Do a cut and paste. Even you could do that, could you not?

It is true I have little substance, but you my dear have none at all.
Too much laughter causes one to lose brain and eye-sight? Who told you that? Is that why you are such a sour puss?

Thanks for your good hopes, but seems you really did not mean that, did you? Why is it a shame for me to enjoy good life?

If you are not married, I can only pity your future husband. If you are, my sincerest sympathies to him. Poor man.(

#359 and #360:

I do not enjoy communicating with uncouth and brazen clowns with little substance, but I do need to point out something - I have yet to come across anyone from your end who does not confuse verbs with nouns. You guys cannot determine the basic difference between ``advice`` and ``advise.`` Think before you speak.

With all said, thanks for pointing out the typo. I stand corrected. I am glad too much laughter did not cause you to lose your brain and eye-sight. I hope you keep on enjoying good life as a result of your women`s KC. What a shame!

Zahra #358: If a luminary like Rabia Alavi is blaming Hindu men for the ills of Pakistani women, who are we to argue?

I can think of couple of good solutions. Take a stout rope, lassoo the Minar-e-Pakistan and drag the whole kittle kibuddle next to New YOrk. Or put the whole country under a giant Kevlar Burqah and block all the transmissions from India. A vice squad formed of Paki amzonians would be required in any case to keep Paki men on the straight and narrow.

Between us and the lamp post, this luminary lady Rabia is not getting all the voltage, she could use.

However to ask Indian men to start fasting for their wives will not work. We would rather go on a hunger strike than fast....LOL

ZahraJ 357: Since Indian men do not fast right now, the movies should tell lies to the world for a phony baloney false image as prescribed by Ms Zahra. Tomorrow another feminist will tell us to lie that Indian men are giving birth to babies.

NAH BABA, NAH WE CAN NOT LIE TO THAT EXTENT!!! No way Jose! No deal !!!

`There are people who live on Indian movies as that`s there only excursion. `

`Please tell these people to ask, nay demand their money back.

By the way I have wondered about this for a long time.

is it a typical pan-Pakistan malady to misuse `there` instead of `their` or is it localized to a particular area? Khamy, Salim, Catchy and many others seem to be OK, but even Tahmed with MBA from Rawal Pindi sometimes stumbles too. Just curious.

And, I found it......Thank God kisee kaa ehsaan naheen laenaa paraa.

---

A mockery of marriage

By Rabia Alavi


Looking at my plight, I felt no girl should ever leave the warmth of her parents` home. Here I was, transformed from the youngest of three pampered daughters to an unloved daughter-in-law kept busy in cooking, cleaning and doing the laundry for eight strangers who were her responsibility merely because they were part of her husband`s family, writes Rabia Alavi

“You have always spoken about bringing a change in society to make it more tolerable towards women. Now, you have an opportunity to materialize your ideals by becoming a part of that segment of society you always wanted to change. Transform it from within.”

That was how one of my cousins reacted when she came to know about my decision of marrying into a conservative family last year. At that time both of us were unaware of the harsh realities of life and had no idea that it’s very difficult to change people in a society which does not practice what it preaches, and is biased against women, especially in marriage affairs. This was revealed to me after I went through the experience myself.

Between the arrival of the proposal at my home and the moment the engagement ring was slipped on to my finger, it became quite clear who had the upper hand in the whole matter. I could see the fragile egos and haughtiness of my would-be in-laws - whether it was my sister-in-law or her eight-year-old daughter. And also, I could feel the soft and polite demeanour of my parents.

Though deep inside I was gnawed by a fear of what lay ahead, I agreed to take the plunge. Numerous problems cropped up even as my wedding day drew nearer. Often, my parents had to put up with the nasty taunts, rude insults and preposterous demands of my would-be in-laws. Many a time I thought of breaking off the engagement, particularly whenever my fiancé came across as a narrow-minded person. The temptation grew stronger with every passing day, but I did not have the courage to reject him.

My foreboding proved to be right, and trouble began soon after I got married. The experience was a huge disappointment in a number of ways.

Instead of winning more freedom to do what I wanted, my mobility was heavily curtailed. Even visiting my parents more than once a week became a struggle as my husband’s entire family considered it their absolute right to question what I did on my own, the places we visited as a couple, and the people we met in the course of the day.

During the first six months I suffered in silence, complying with all my in-laws’ wishes, hoping that one day I would win their hearts. But, that could never happen.

Looking at my plight, I felt no girl should ever leave the warmth of her parents’ home, at least ones who were treated like little princesses. Here I was, transformed virtually overnight from the youngest of three pampered daughters to an unloved daughter-in-law kept busy in cooking, cleaning, washing the dishes and doing the laundry for eight strangers who were her responsibility merely because they were part of her husband’s family.

But even as I indulged in self-pity, I tried my best not to be a pessimist. I had always been fond of reading about the lives of strong-willed women and in my depressed state, I found their experiences and words of advice uplifting. The result of this introspection was that, one fine day, I decided that I had had enough. I began studying up all that Islam had to say about marriage. I had heard far too much about the rights of a Muslim husband. Now, I thought it was high time to find out about the rights of a Muslim wife.

With the study of Islam, I discovered that the people who were costing me so much sweat and tears had been defined in religion as ‘relations of mercy’. Wives are called upon to be good and kind to them, but there is no compulsion in this. There is no reference of any injunction either that gives them the authority to order a daughter-in-law.

Also, nowhere in our religion are we asked to wait at the dinner table while they feast on the dishes. Neither are cooking, cleaning and washing defined as the chores of a wife nor are there any clauses to prevent us from working outside the home.

Hazrat Khadijah, who approached the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) to ask for his hand in marriage, was a businesswoman herself. That lays to rest the statements that permit women to work in the capacity of a nurse or teacher only.

I also discovered that a joint family system is neither blessed nor encouraged anywhere in Islam. It is stated quite clearly that the husband must provide the wife with accommodation where modesty and privacy are well taken care of. As for the demand for a separate home, it is justified if one recognizes that socio-tribal traditions of living together with one’s in-laws has no basis in Islam.

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was among the world’s greatest reformers on behalf of women. He abolished sex-discriminating practices including female infanticide while introducing laws guaranteeing women the right to inherit and bequeath property and the right to exercise full control and possession over their own wealth.

When Islam was founded women participated in public life, were vocal about social inequities and often shared decision-making with the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Unfortunately, in the present age patriarchal societies with vested interests have de-emphasized and misinterpreted the Holy Prophet’s sayings, especially about women. Consequently, his consideration for women’s rights is no longer reflected in the wider social and domestic spheres.

However, one wonders, where has the contorted belief making the husband’s family supreme and all-powerful come from? Serving food on their plates, standing at their service or cooking fresh chapattis while the men eat — isn’t this a sight that all of us have seen in the subcontinent?

India has always been great at either shaking off foreign influences or effortlessly absorbing them. In our case, many of the subcontinental Muslims converted from Hinduism had carried with them a nasty baggage of patriarchal practices –– an inevitable outcome of assimilation. Such practices naturally appealed to our already male-dominated society, especially to keep women in control.

Armed with my improved knowledge of women’s rights in Islam, I no longer oblige the unjust demands of my in-laws ––- be it my husband’s or in-laws’.

I realized that all these days they had been taking advantage of my innocence and vulnerability. If Islam tells me to obey my husband, there are also clauses that define how I should be treated in return. I decided that if my rights were not protected by my husband, I was in no way bound to fulfill his.

My marriage is working well now, perhaps because both my husband and I are now aware that my expectations are not unfair, unrealistic or unacceptable. That my religion gives me the right to walk out of this marriage if my efforts to save it come to naught. Divorce may be a taboo in our society, and an act Almighty Allah dislikes, nonetheless, both believing men and women are given the right to end a marriage if it brings them unhappiness for any reasons.

In the final analysis, I would say that there has to be a greater self-study of Islam so that we can get to know what the religion really says instead of believing what someone else tells us. Only then will Pakistani women be able to enjoy an intellectually and emotionally contented life.

Dost Mittar:

I just wanted to confirm your stance on KC. Initially you sounded as if you did believe in that and that`s why you were constantly donwplaying the risk involved till I asked you a straigtforward question. I understand the rationale behind the rasm, but my question still holds true - why would not a man fast for the well being of his wife (the mother of his kids, his life partner and beloved)? Don`t tell me that women can withstand fasting better than men?

You do realize the impact of Indian films and dramas on the Pakistani audience. There are people who live on Indian movies as that`s there only excursion. Obviously, when those men and women watch day in and day out these programs they emulate those traditions and practices. In that respect, I agree with the gist of Shaista`s thought process. I was serious when I said that you guys need to exclude negative traditions from your programs as that will cast a negative impression on the naive audience. Similarly, if you show positive, healthy and unique practices i.e. a husband praying for the lonnnnnnnnnngggggggg life of his wife...then you are giving out a positive and firm message to the public all over the world. You are showing how important your women are to you. What`s wrong with that? Why keep it in your heart? Why not say it loud and clear?

I hate to bring up the subject of fasting after the turkey break. I am sure you understand my concern.

re:#343 by Ajeya
Hindi is derived from sanskrit but to say Hindi used to be sanskrit a one time is utter nonsense.
Do u really know any sanskrit at all? The 2 are vastly different in grammar.
Let me give u just one eg.
There is nothing like a neuter gender in hindi. It is just masculine or feminine. This has given rise to a plethora of problems. Something as masculine as a moustache is spoken in the feminime gender (mere mooch lambi hai and not ``meri mooch lamba hai``).
Sanskrit has a seperate neuter gender. All nonliving, inanimate things are convenietly put in that gender.
The words in a sentence in sanskrit are so linked that u can put the word in any place in a sentence and the meaning does not change. Try doing that with hindi or any other language. That is why it is a poet`s paradise! One of the assignments we had in school was to tease out a sanskrit poem as to which word belongs where to make the meaning simple and straight forward.
Such linkage is not seen in hindi.
There are many differences but i am giving u only some.
Hindi is derived from sanskrit the way gujarati, marathi are. That is all.
Also, hindi has been influenced by turkish, arabic, persian after muslim invasion and has assimilated words from these to such an extent that it is now also referred to as Hindustani to distinguish it from ``pure hindi`` (the kind ABV speaks and few understand!). Hindustani is the language of the masses. Few speak pure hindi. If i have to tell somebody to sit down, i will just say ``baithiye`` and not ``aasan grahan keejiye``. See my point?
Sridhar

re:#340 by Ajeya
You are probably not keeping current on the debate about AIT. It is a settled matter in academic circles. I do not have time now but if u search Chowk with my name and AIT, i have provided ample evidence. A conference of historians in US sometime ago decided to do away (or phase out) this theory!
That tree that u posted would be revised. It is very old. That is an old thinking. As i said, the 2 are very closely linked. The whole concept of a proto-indo-european origin of languages was started with the AIT. If u read history, u would know the 2 are closely connected. I am not denying that there are close similarities between many european languages and sanskrit but to say they all originated from a single (now unknown) source, when that source does not exist now and no books, archives, scrolls from that common source thrives, is ridiculous.
The tree u posted is well known. That is what is being taught in academic circles. But AIT is out. You may do your own research on that.
Sridhar

re:#338 by AlephNull
It is not just the import of sanskrit words. Languages like malayalam have alphabets that Tamil (the most ancient of dravidian languages) does not have. For eg there is nothing like the pa, pha, fa (only one word pa), tha, thatha, dha (onlyone word tha), ka, kha, gha (only one word ka). Hence the hilarity produced when a tamilian, not well versed with hindi, tries to speak that language! All the substitute letters are there in malayalam (and my guess is in Telugu, Kannada too).
My theory is that as Tamil purists refused to change, ancient tamil metamorphosed into these other languages (telugu, malayalam, kannada), imbibing the north indian influence and sanskrit words.
Sridhar

re:#330 by einsteinwallah
Interesting post.
Only, your argument is in the reverse direction. At least that is my opinion. I am not a linguist or an expert.
Here is what i think.
The ``zh`` word (as in Tamizh as u rightly pointed out) is uniquely Dravidian in origin. All dravidian languages (including the most ancient of them viz tamizh) has this word. I was surprised to learn that Gujarathi language has this word too! Now, zh word is not there in sanskrit (despite having a vast vocabulary and 52 letters to boot!), so this must be an import from one of the dravidian languages.
Balak in hindi is balak in sanskrit. So it is with kalash.
I am not aware of more than one form of zh. There is Tamizh, Tamizhagan, Tamizhselvi, vazhaipazham (the last is a tongue twister and can put a north indian mind to a tizzy. it just means a banana!) so on and so forth. The zh in all these are the same.
Sridhar

re:#329 by mannyd
Interesting thing in that tree is the language of the Gypsies. Gypsies are known to have scattered across the globe (mostly Europe) but it is well known they originated from India.

This from a website:
(First, what we do know about them is this: they originated as a dark skinned tribe of people in northern India. Their language to this day, though it has separated into many dialects, still remains Hindi and Sanskrit roots.
.....
When they first arrived in Europe, the fair-skinned Europeans inquired where these dark-skinned people came from. Some gypsies had migrated up from Egypt so the word spread that they were Egyptians, or “Gyptians,” which became our present word, Gypsy.)
Genetic studies have confirmed their Indian origin:

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3760
Sridhar

re:#311 by mannyd
I think i gave the link to DNA studies in some former post. I will try and see if i can find it.
Sridhar

re:#298 by anil
your are just being stupid. That is all i can say. I can`t waste time on this. It is a fact that sanskrit was a spoken language even well into the 19th century, albeit by a small number of people. It was the conversational language at academic circles, much like english today.
I know this from personal experience that many pundits continue to converse in that language. Quoting anthologies etc won`t supecede personal experience.
Sridhar

Ajeya #343

{{One language splits into two, for example, when one population splits into two and moves to separate geographic locations.}}

That is one common mechanism. The split could also happen if one language becomes the specialized tongue of priests, scholars, administrators, and court poets, and the other the demotic tongue of relatively unschooled common people – even within the same geographical area.

{{So kindly spare us all this talk about Hindi ``absorbing`` from Sanskrit.}}

The problem is that a contemporary North Indian vernacular may be a direct descendant of a prakrit that split away from Sanskrit well before the full development of classical Sanskrit. A neologism synthesized in classical Sanskrit long after the split occurred would not automatically become a part of the vocabulary of the prakrit – which is a distinct language at that point. There may have been no occasion to use specialized or scholarly Sanskrit terminology (e.g. the technical vocabulary of astronomy, or trigonometry, or grammar) in the prakrit. The new word in Sanskrit may even have been coined in a totally different region and may have taken a while to enter general Sanskrit use (even among a specialized population of scholars) in all parts of India.

So a specialized word coined in Sanskrit in say 500 CE does not automatically become the property of Hindi if Hindi’s direct ancestor ca 500 CE was distinct from classical Sanskrit by that point in time. It would have to be consciously ‘imported’ or ‘absorbed’.

To make it possibly easier to see, here is a parallel from European languages. English is a Germanic language; it is descended from the tongue spoken by tribes who migrated from Germany in the 5th century CE. German words coined well after that period do not automatically become English words. Some of them – like Schadenfreude, and Bremsstrahlung, may eventually be imported and absorbed into English. The vast majority of German words remain non-English even though English used to be German at one time, has just changed to some extent, retains common core words (numbers, family relationships, etc) , and still has somewhat similar core grammatical structure.

Kaal #347: `or is it merely for wives to pray for their very mortal husbands` long lives?`

That is exactly what it is. Not praying to the `husband god` but praying to God for Husband`s long life.

Netizen: With all the fasting going on in your family, it appears you are from a very fast family of fasters. Others may be fast, but you will be faster. Ever consider running in the olympics?)

Someone please remind us what KC is all about? Is it when wives worship, as they should, their one and only true God called Husband, or is it merely for wives to pray for their very mortal husbands` long lives?

The latter purpose would be such a comedown....
.

Netizen

Thanks bro. With friends like you around, one cannot even fancy oneself as God. What`s next? Doing dishes??

zahraj#333:

I thought that you would have asked this question off-chowk. But since you asked, here is my answer. I have always told my wife to stop this yearly ``paakhand``. It had no effect at first but for the last few years, it has worked. But for some reason, wives consider this day as special and look forward to this ritual. The only real thing is that this is one day when even the most nagging wife is nice to her husband.

The second question is quite irrelevant. My daughters have a mind of their own and they`ll probably do the opposite of what I ask, including who to marry. There is not even a remote chance of my asking them to do KC.

zahraj#333:

I thought that you would have asked this question off-chowk. But since you asked, here is my answer. I have always told my wife to stop this yearly ``paakhand``. It had no effect at first but for the last few years, it has worked. But for some reason, wives consider this day as special and look forward to this ritual. The only real thing is that this is one day when even the most nagging wife is nice to her husband.

The second question is quite irrelevant. My daughters have a mind of their own and they`ll probably do the opposite of what I ask, including who to marry. There is not even a remote chance of my asking them to do KC.

Re: #312 by ahmadzai

[Re: # 296

I would like to thank Ajeya on producing the chart in his post.]


Thank you. You are welcome.



[However, I think there is a disconnect between Indians and Pakistanis on the debate going on here.

Some fine points about Urdu - influences, script, alphabets, exotic pronounciation, etc.

What we have been suggesting is the origination and development of Urdu (by T. Ahmed) and influence on it (by myself). We never questioned the origin of Urdu, because almost all languages of this part of the world are classified as Indo-Iranian in origin.

What my point was is that Pakistani culture, quite idiosyncratic at this point, has come about as a mixture of Indian, Central Asian and Middle Eastern cultures.

Urdu, too, may have originated as one of the languages under Indo-Iranian groups,....]




No. Urdu DID originate from - not just any Indo-Iranian groups - BUT SANSKRIT!


Yes. Try this. Say the word ``Sanskrit`` out loud a few times. Swish it around your tongue - gargle with it for a while.

Yes, Sanskrit - the language of the Vedas and the Upanishads - that ``other`` religion!

Try it! It may be painful at first, but you`ll get reconciled to it gradually.

Go on! Give it a try!

I see that a there is a lot of writing on this forum by different people about Hindi ``absorbing`` stuff from Sanskrit.

Linguistically speaking, of course, this is sheer nonsense.

One language splits into two, for example, when one population splits into two and moves to separate geographic locations. Because in the past, travel was slow and cumbersome, there was much less population exchange between the two new communities. Therefore, the SAME language EVOLVED in two different directions, eventually to the extent that the two languages sounded very different - e.g. Bengali and Hindi. The core grammatical structure however, and core words etc. are still the same. Even this similarity gradually lessens over time, and becomes fainter and fainter. Linguists therefore look for traces of similar grammatical structure and core words when they compare languages separated by vast stretches of time and geographic location.

The point of the above paragraph, for those in a hurry, is that when two languages split from a mother language, they DO NOT ABSORB from it - they ACTUALLY USED TO BE that mother language, they have just changed to some extent.

So kindly spare us all this talk about Hindi ``absorbing`` from Sanskrit. Hindi has ``absorbed`` words from Turkish, Persian, Arabic, English etc., but it USED TO BE SANSKRIT at one time.


IS THIS DISTINCTION TOO DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND?

#329 by mannyd on November 25, 2005 1:35pm PT


[Thanks again Ajeya, You need to compile this for a separate FP article, rather than let it lie under Shaista`s complaint.]


You are welcome, Manny. And what`s the point writing an article - this is pretty basic stuff that`s been well known for decades about which there is no controversy even - somehow people like to stir up mud over an issue, and then try to give an angle to any subject that their heart desires - like this desire on the part some people on this website to desperately try to drag Urdu away from its Hindustani roots and show it as a Middle-East-originated (in keeping with their Islamic heritage) language.

Go figure!

#319 by kaalchakra

[Ajeya

Your have presented the best-considered opinions today. Best in the sphere of linguistics, and on Chowk. ]


Thanks. But I really cannot take any credit for it. This is standard stuff that everybody knows, and has known for decades now. There is not even any controversy about the relationship of Hindi and Urdu to Sanskrit and to each other.



[That`s why the aggressive tone of a couple of your addresses to Anil was not necessary. ]

Actually, if you read my post # 277, which is what you are referring to, it is more frustation than anything else. I cannot comprehend why obviously educated people would start dishing out a bunch of personally-held beliefs and guesses with such a pedantic air. Sincere mistakes I can respect. Intentionally and knowingly dishing out bullshit is an insult to my intelligence and everybody elses.



[Ofcourse, if we draw inspiration from our Indian culture, of which we are all so proud, we make a good effort to be respectful to our elders. Anil is one of our elders. Perhaps you were unaware of that fact, in which case, please accept my sincere apologies for this rant. ]

This is an anonymous forum. You should be judged by what you say. Age is immaterial here, because this is an artificial cyber-community.



[Returning to your disagreement with Anil, over the specific usasge of the word `import,` you have my support. Very perceptively, you have zoomed in on something which both Anil and I may have been taught to overlook.

Or out of a sense of political correctness, may still be unwilling to publicly acknowledge. `Derivation` is clearly not quite the same as `import.` Particularly when the issue of language is turned ideological. ]

I`m glad you realize it.

#301 by rsridhar

[re:#296 by Ajeya
I have no problem accepting that hindi is derived from sanskrit. Anybody saying otherwise does not know what he is talking.
However, i do have a lot of problems accepting that language tree(s) that u posted as the gospel truth.
It has been taught in academic circles for more than a century now that European and Indic languages (barring dravidian languages) are derived from a common source.
This kind of theory was first propounded by people like Max Mueller, William Jones etc who saw many commonalities between say sanskrit and Latin (max mueller must have seen a lot in common between sanskrit and german) and were puzzled as to how this was possible in a remote corner (which is what India was for them) and in a country that to them was in utter decay. They were unwilling to accept that perhaps their own languages were influenced by sanskrit. They invented this common source and called it Proto-Indo-European. One need not worry about this common source much as it was deemed to have existed at some point of time and disappeared at some point of time later.
I will say: how convenient!
Of course these fine gentlemen also invented the Aryan Invasion Theory. This has now been totally discredited in academic circles. Genetic studies have proved that the gene pool of for eg Indian populaiton is uniquely Indian with nothing much in common with Iranian or European genes (some commonalities are inevitable. Scientists look for genes that will be statistically much more common in a populaiton that could be explained only by migration from outside). South Indian brahmin genes (i think the study included Telugu brahmins) for eg is uniquely Indian.
Better anthropological, archeological techniques along with gene mapping, satellite imagery etc have sounded a death knell for the AIT. It will take sometime for people to forget just because it has taken such a hold on people`s minds even in India.
When there was no AIT, where is the question of a common root?
In all probability, sanskrit was the oldeste of all languages and influenced other cultures heavily in the past.
Sridhar]


Well Sridhar, these are two SEPARATE issues:

1) Whether Hindi is derived from Sanskrit, and

2) Whether there was an Aryan invasion, or whether there was a migration of language from inside India outwards.

About the first one (point 1), there is no debate.

About the second (point 2), there is MUCH debate.

But since you did bring this up, regardless of whether there was an inflow or an outflow of language and population from India, linguistically speaking, the European Languages and the North Indian languages fall under the same umbrella. I do not know if you have studied linguistics, or about the methods used to classify languages, but if you did, you would be left with no other conclusion. There is NO DISPUTE between the linguists in this regard.

Re: # 337

``I know of no husband who forces his wife to do this.``

yeah me too.

i think it is something like a girly thing. my sister, when unmarried, used to do some other fasting to please shankar bhagwan so that she would get a suitable husband. no one in the family made her to do that. i didn`t even know how she would pick up the days. i would know that she is fasting when she would eat some fruits for lunch.

Re. the question of which modern Indian languages are more closely ‘related’ to Sanskrit and which are less so:

It’s very common to hear people whose mother tongue is a regional language other than Hindi – be it Bengali, Marathi, Telegu, Malayalam – claim that their language is ‘closer’ to Sanskrit than Hindi is. Often this takes the form of someone relating how he was complimented by his Hindi teacher for using a word, a familiar everyday colloquial word from his mother tongue, which turned to be not so familiar to native speakers of colloquial Hindi.

I believe these commonly expressed – if imprecisely stated – opinions are grounded in something real, concerning the vocabularies of these languages. It might be worth zeroing in on what it probably is.

Sanskrit-related words in Hindi are classified as either ‘tatsam’ (entering Hindi directly from Sanskrit) or ‘tadbhav’ (entering Hindi from a Sanskrit-related language – a Prakrit or Apabhramsa). The ‘tadbhav’ words typically have a more colloquial flavour compared to the ‘tatsam’ words.

What seems to be the case is that many languages other than Hindi, when they use a Sanskrit-related word, commonly employ the ‘tatsam’ word, i.e. the ‘pure’ Sanskrit word, in preference to a ‘debased’ derivative. In some cases, such as Malayalam, Telegu (which are not of Indo-European origin), this may be because of wholesale direct imports from Sanskrit. In other cases, it may be because the language always retained the tatsam word in common usage. In still other cases, it may be because - at some period in the past - reformers, systematizers, promulgators, propagandists, or other scholars and innovators of the language, made a conscious decision to return to or re-emphasize the Sanskrit roots (in two senses) of their language, which may have fallen into comparative disuse, and thereby re-popularised the ‘tatsam’ words. [Since Sanskrit was the scholarly lingua franca of classical (i.e. pre-Islamic) Indian civilization, it would be the natural and obvious first source to turn to to find or coin words for complex concepts.] In general it would have been a combination of all three processes in different proportions.

As a consequence of this absorption or retention of Sanskrit words in regional languages, it turns out that the overlap in vocabulary between Hindi and, say, Malayalam, will be found largely or almost exclusively in the ‘Sanskritised’ vocabulary, i.e. in the tatsam words of Hindi. The tadbhav words in Hindi would be unrecognizable or barely recognizable to a native speaker of Malayalam; the Arabic, Turkic, and Persian-derived words common to Urdu would be indecipherable, with rare exceptions.

335 Netizon:

` wonder if she is whining in front of her husband, which she should if the husband is forcing her to fast. `

I know of no husband who forces his wife to do this. Whining is the main point behind KC. One day of whining gets the wife one year of emotional blackmail.)

334 Zahra: `Can you help? Now, this is serious.`

No it is not.) Be careful Arjun_m. The ole battle axe is on a war path. Do not help her. The whole Hindudom is about to collapse otherwise. HAHAHAHAHA.

Oh so fasting is not cruel if you do it for an unproven, unseen or uncaring `God`. It is cruel only if it is done for your Pati Dev, the bread winner, the father of your children and your family. Wah!
It is not cruel at all if husband reciprocates with fasting for the wife. Why? Wah Wah!
We men lure our wives emotionally to do this. How? Wah, wah, wah!
Oh Paki men! learn something from your Kafir brothern! Learn how to lure your females emotionally to suffer inhuman practices.

Wait, you already know this and even more. Ah, the Multan Panchayat and Miss MM? OK guys, you win.

Mr. Zahra, if you are there yet, please do not force evil KC on poor Zahra.

Re: # 333

zahra:

``It was after talking to the women who had to fast for one day and they were whining like hell. ``

i wonder if she is whining in front of her husband, which she should if the husband is forcing her to fast.

if she were my wife, i would personally ensure that she eats well, atleast to get her off my back ;)

Re: # 332

Arjunm:

I know you quote articles from Dawn quite often. I was not able to go into archives to find the article by this lady Rabia on the comedy of marriage. I tried different approaches but somehow Dawn`s site does not allow to retrieve articles that easily. Can you help? Now, this is serious.

Re: # 324

In the month of Ramadan or Ramazan, men and women fast for their God and not for each other. They do not consider each other a form of God. You guys fast for the human beings thinking they are indispensable and immortals. You emotionally lure your women to fast for their men. How inhuman!!! The reason I considered KC cruel was not because of my own prejudice or overnight love or hatred for the said practice. It was after talking to the women who had to fast for one day and they were whining like hell. Why inflict so much torture for a mortal? Can we interview your wife to learn about her sentiments? Would you fast for the longevity of your wife? Or you would pray otherwise.

Unlike your kind, I do not need to take out my kirpan to raise awareness on an inhuman practice. I am happy with my words of wisdom :)

Dost Mittar:

[The practice is certainly indicative of the pati-dev mentality and reinforces the idea that a husband`s life is more important for wife than the other way round, but I wouldn`t call it cruel, there are really cruel practices, such as dowry burning and female infanticide in our culture that I would be more worried about.]

Do you believe in this jargon? Or you would fast for your wife to show that you are a progressive Canadian-Indian male of Pakistani ancestry? Would you recommend the said practice to your son-in-laws provided they are punjabi hindus? I am sure you would wish otherwise :)

#330 by einsteinwallah on November 25, 2005 1:40pm PT


But the character which stands for `jha` in Hindi is actually spoken by speakers of Marathi as `za`.


Yup...Zavadya v/s Jhavadya

Re: # 328

kaal:

``Give me a husband worshipper any day (and night).``

maybe your wife has not heard this song:

zamana to hai naukar biwi ka ..... ;)

My mother tongue is neither Marathi nor Hindi (it is Gujarati), so what I write below may be in error.

Both Marathi and Hindi are written in Devnagari script. But the character which stands for `jha` in Hindi is actually spoken by speakers of Marathi as `za`. So for example a Marathi speaker would read `jharnaa` as `zarnaa`.

Gujarati language has same script as Marathi except for the way it is written. This is why entire text of any Marathi writing can be written in Gujarati script by mechanically replacing character for character. (Some ligatures look closer to the Hindi writing style than Marathi. For example, -rya- in `aarya` will be written differently in Marathi and Hindi, with Gujarati writing being closer to Hindi)

We Gujaratis who do not know that Hindi `jha` is not `za` pronounce words with `jh` with sound `z`. Same is true about Marathis. It was only in university that I met a north Indian who had lived in Gujarat during his childhood who informed me of my error. This north Indian was son of a Railway worker who was posted in Gujarat for sometime. So his dad had to teach him (and possibly his Hindi teacher) the correct pronunciation of -jha-.

Marathi and Gujarati has a character which is missing in Hindi. It is transliterated for Tamil and Malayalam languages as -zh-. For example, Anbazhagan is a name in Malayalam. (Please here also somebody please correct me if I am wrong). Probably Tamil has several varieties of -zh-. In fact Tamil is transliteration of word Tamizh. It is mis-transliterated probably because Hindi does not have -zh-. Most words with -zh- in Gujarati also exist in Hindi but there they are written with -l- in place where -zh- is there in Gujarati word. For example, `baazhak` means child and in Hindi it is written as `baalak`. Another example is: `kazhash` which means `lota` is written in Hindi as kalash (a Lata sung song is: jyoti kalash chhalake...).

In drawing genelogical tree of languages existence of sound is more surer test than words. Words can be imported but sounds and speaking styles cannot be. For example, if ancient Hindi did not have baalak then it might have been imported from south (say from Marathi or any of south Indian languages) or west (Gujarati or some African/Arabic source). Once we find baazhak in in ancient Gujarati and baalak in modern Hindi we cannot argue that baalak in Hindi is imported from Gujarati. That is because written record is fragmentary. We may think since no ancient record of Hindi exists showing usage of baalak that it is an import. But another possibility is missing record. It may be other way round. That baalak existed in Hindi and then migrated to Gujarat or Maharashtra where locals started pronouncing it as baazhak. Like in Marathi Hospital is written as ispitazha (am I wrong? please correct me if I am)

I think so reality is that in absence of any real insurmountable boundary words can flow both ways. We may argue that patronage of ruling class is important but there is a possibility that rulers want to strengthen local tongues because they want support of ruled rather than impose ruler`s language on ruled and alienate them.

DM #323:

`The sinhala people left Bihar-Bengal area when it was still Buddhist and Pali was the spoken language of the people. Being an island, the language was probably more insulated from outside influences than the languages on the subcontinent.`

That explains quite a bit of mystery. Before Vividh Bahrti days, Radio Ceylon was a popular radio station in Punjab. At their sign off, they would play their national anthem, which was chock full of Sanskrit. It also explains the current struggle between Dravidians and Sinhalese. Thanks for the info.

On a separate note, the Romany (of gypsies) and Maldivian is interesting. Quite a few gypsies ended up in the Holocaust death camps. Similarly how Blauchi and Kurdish are similar is interesting too.

Thanks again Ajeya, You need to compile this for a separate FP article, rather than let it lie under Shaista`s complaint.

Netizen

``when i get married, if needed, i will definitely fast for my wife regardless of what she thinks of KC.``

Don`t be ridiculous. It is much better being a confirmed MCP. Nobody in his sane mind would give up an advantage without being forced into it.

Give me a husband worshipper any day (and night).

Re: # 326

``the `pati-dev` ideology (and the whole system of practices that went with it) was very harmful for Hindu women.``


wasn`t there a song something like this:

bhala hai bura hai
jaisa bhi hai
mera pati mera devta hai....

mannyd

Quit pulling my legs, young man! :)

---

Zahraj

Cruel or not, the `pati-dev` ideology (and the whole system of practices that went with it) was very harmful for Hindu women. Like all other harmful ideologies, it too was fully supported by vast majorities of its own victims.

Re: # 321

even though i come from a north indian family, i never noticed women folks in my family practising that. may be i am just to oblivious to my surroundings.

i never knew that KC was a cruel practice. next time i speak to my mom/sister, i will ask her. i never saw it enforced on anyone even though i really don`t care about it. i think if people want to follow it they should but with full stomach :)

regarding me, when i get married, if needed, i will definitely fast for my wife regardless of what she thinks of KC.

my mom fasts 2 days/week. these fastings are not that strict though. she does have water and fruits during the day. and my father fasts once/week. i too used to fast once/week when i was a believer.

infact my sister used to fast too, once/week. after marriage her husband and his family persuaded her to give it up for health reasons.


regarding the black tents, thats my observation in india. maybe pakis are far ahead of indian muslims.

Here comes the female Maula Jat swinging her kulharee.
`Believe me, if you start showing these examples and cultural chaNge then it will have a positive and long term impact on your neighbors as well as your own people.`
Our own people are happy doing what they have been doing.
If we change it will have a positive and long term impact on Pakistan?
Heck that is the best argument I ever heard for not changing.
If fasting is cruel, can you do away with your cruelty duirng Ramzan, Ramdan or Ram Dhan, whatever you call it?

`Yes dear, I am telling this Paki fighter to lay off Karua Chauth. No, no, you do not need to unsheath your Kirpan dear, not yet.`..LOL

zahraj:

The practice of karva chauth is there in Rajasthan and may be some other parts but it is not there in Bengal or South India. But with its glamourisation by Bollywood, I wont be surprised if it is spreading to other parts of the country.

The practice is certainly indicative of the pati-dev mentality and reinforces the idea that a husband`s life is more important for wife than the other way round, but I wouldn`t call it cruel, there are really cruel practices, such as dowry burning and female infanticide in our culture that I would be more worried about.

And Hindus being hindus, there is hardly anything static or sacred. These days, ``some good men`` have started keeping fast on that day and many unmarried girls are doing it too. It`s just become a fashion thingy.

mannyd:
It is not surprising at all that sinhala should be closer to sanskrit than other Indian languages, although Bengali also seems to me to be closer than North Indian languges. The sinhala people left Bihar-Bengal area when it was still Buddhist and Pali was the spoken language of the people. Being an island, the language was probably more insulated from outside influences than the languages on the subcontinent.

#315 Anil: You are right about Punjabi and Khari boli andd Tahmed was wrong. Thank you for setting him straight. My references to your examples were slightly on a jocular tone. No offense.

Kaal Sahib: You are absolutely right about showing respect to the elders. Anil is one of our elders. By the way I am older than Anil and may present my rain check in future as needed. All you young Turks are on notice...LOL..HAHAHAHAHHA

A correction: In my previous post, I may have implied that hinduism is equal to indian punjabi culture. I wanted to correct myself there since that may not be 100% true. The rest of India may be completely unaware of this cruel practice of KC.

Netizen:

Are you in favor of the cruel practice of kurva chauth or you are against it? I wanted to post the very interesting article by Rabia something on cultural aspects of marriage and the influence of hinduism. It is a very interesting read. I wished arjunm was around and I could request him to get that information from Dawn`s website since I cannot find that article.

On your concern: I have not seen any black tents in Pakistan in decades. You may be confusing that with the middle eastern countries. I think most of the burqas that are worn in today`s day and age are either white, ivory, beige or light/dull blue. Also, they are no longer burqas. They are known as abayas. I am not sure if they are culturally imposed on women or women take them by choice. There is a difference.

Re: # 314

Yes, I think Sinhalas are Biharis and Oriyas gone there during King Ashok`s time when
Buddhism was spreading over Asia in all directions.

Ajeya

Your have presented the best-considered opinions today. Best in the sphere of linguistics, and on Chowk.

That`s why the aggressive tone of a couple of your addresses to Anil was not necessary.

Ofcourse, if we draw inspiration from our Indian culture, of which we are all so proud, we make a good effort to be respectful to our elders. Anil is one of our elders. Perhaps you were unaware of that fact, in which case, please accept my sincere apologies for this rant.

---

Returning to your disagreement with Anil, over the specific usasge of the word `import,` you have my support. Very perceptively, you have zoomed in on something which both Anil and I may have been taught to overlook.

Or out of a sense of political correctness, may still be unwilling to publicly acknowledge. `Derivation` is clearly not quite the same as `import.` Particularly when the issue of language is turned ideological.

Re: # 316

Zahra:

why doesn`t pakis learn from hindus and forbid the women from wearing that black tent?

hinduism itself has a lot of problems, it would be better to get good traits from it.

Re: # 316

Zahra:

why doesn`t pakis learn from hindus and forbid the women from wearing that black tent?

hinduism itself has a lot of problems, it would be better to get good traits from it.

Re: # 310

It may have been a shock to you that some of your women do not fast whole heartedly on this kurva chauth stuff. It`s unbelievable that in Indian(Punjabi) culture they put men on a pedestal and fast for their well being. Why? Do men also follow any such tradition for their women? Shouldn`t they be fasting for the well-being of their women? Why not? If you guys DO fast for your women`s well being then that is what should be promoted in your plays and soap operas. Believe me, if you start showing these examples and cultural chaNge then it will have a positive and long term impact on your neighbors as well as your own people. In Pakistan, most of the current day and age cultural fiascos are blamed on hinduism. It never occured to me that was still happening till I read a woman`s story in Dawn. I do think that after 50 something years the current generation should not lay the blame on hinduism since they did not live and are not living in those times. Your saas bahoo fiascos and male representing Raja Inder are promoting wrong values on this side of the border.

We should initiate a movement on Chowk to abolish this cruel-cultural-practice the sooner the better.

Re: # 305

Mannyd:

I am sorry if my assertion bothered you, I will keep it in my mind. However, just because I gave my personal example, which you did not like, does not prove Punjabi and Braj Bhasa or Kharri Boli are linked.

BTW, I have said that Arabic does not have the phoneme (``pa``), you might like to read it again. I also gave an example how phonemes not in the language have been included, like in Hindi (``Za).

Anil

Re: # 311

mannyd:

``How it jumped over the Dravidian group and moved to Ceylon is intriguing. ``

the sinhalese of sri lanka are the descendants of settlers from north india. they are indians too :)

Re: # 296

An interesting and educational chart.

Re: # 296

I would like to thank Ajeya on producing the chart in his post. However, I think there is a disconnect between Indians and Pakistanis on the debate going on here.

Some fine points about Urdu - influences, script, alphabets, exotic pronounciation, etc.

What we have been suggesting is the origination and development of Urdu (by T. Ahmed) and influence on it (by myself). We never questioned the origin of Urdu, because almost all languages of this part of the world are classified as Indo-Iranian in origin.

What my point was is that Pakistani culture, quite idiosyncratic at this point, has come about as a mixture of Indian, Central Asian and Middle Eastern cultures.

Urdu, too, may have originated as one of the languages under Indo-Iranian groups, but its origination and subsequent development was heavily influenced by Turkestani and later more significantly by Persian language. Its script is closer to Persian (not to Arabic as Indians tend to believe) and alphabets are also Persian (not Arabic). Arabic alphabets are a subset of Persian (and, therefore, Urdu) alphabets. Therefore, Urdu has sounds for P, T and even a totally exotic Zhe or YZHE like in YZHAALA BARI (hail storm) or ARYZHANG, the farsi equivalent of word `Superman`. Furthermore, in order to compensate for some Hindi alphabets perhaps, an additional list of alphabets was developed by joining two Persian alphabets. For example, in order to pronounce the world Thund (cold), the two alphabets of sounds ‘ta’ and ‘ha’ were joined to give us the sound of ‘Th’ as in Thund. Otherwise, the same word would be pronounced ‘ta-hund’

Going back to the original point, the influence of Persian and Arabic is now so strong on Urdu that the speakers of this language and those speaking Hindi cannot write to each other. With the passage of time, we will not be able to talk to each other also. As it is, Pakistanis are unable to understand many words and phrases of Hindi.

Furthermore, tahmed has a strong case when he suggests that both these languages will eventually die out at the hands of English. I will attribute that to the inferiority complex of the people of the two countries than to anything else.

Pakistan based languages like Sindhi and Pushto (and similar Indian languages) will survive for longer duration, not because these people love a ‘surkhab ka per’, but because they are lagging behind the others in this region in terms of progress and development and are, therefore, not exposed to English that much.

Factoid: According to a recent piece of research, 90% of the existing languages will die out within next 50 years.

Jang #307: Oh that Mcauley Sahib.)
JG # 309: That is quite a spread between Hindi/Sanskrit score. Why?
Ajeya: That was a lot of work to put together all those sites. Thanks. They are far more reliable than Tahmed`s hand waving and Anil`s Mami from Braj.

Shishapa: Good question about which language is closest to Sanskrit? Looking at Ajeya`s tree chart, it seems Sinhalese is the closest. How it jumped over the Dravidian group and moved to Ceylon is intriguing.

Rsridhar: Thanks for the link on Sanskrit. You mention the Indian DNA and the Aryan invasion theory. Has the DNA been already mapped? do you have any links to the studies? Apart from the DNA proof, the pro/anti invasion theories will remain just that, theories. However the language trees are less nebulous, because the words are there and available for study.

Zahra 308: Well it took lot of effort on your part but I am so glad that you are glad that you, DM and anyone else is on the same page. If you can just calibrate your estimation faculties to a common standard now, we can all declare victory against evil Karua Chauth, Mangal Sutra etc, and let poor real life Maula Jat clean up his Kulharee and go home.)

Re: # 304
I hear you jangbhau. I also opted for 50%-50% Hindi-Sanskrit. Scored 49/50 in Sanskrit and 30/50 in Hindi :D

dost mittar:

I am glad we are on the same page. I think you are underestimating the power of cultural drama. A lot of life threatening fiascos take place due to cultural dramas vs. real life maula jat scenarios.

nanny i mean the british matriculate curriculum as developed by mcauley sahib. it was a rather tough exam to graduate. a matric graduate of those days was well educated in english math and sanskrit.

Jang # 305:
`Parents generation had a much more extensive knowlegde, if they took sanskrit for McAuleys matric exam. `

Jang Sahib, I never heard of Mcauleys in Punjab. What year and where did your parents graduate from?

DM#303:
Urdu does have a `P` sound`. Anil is plain wrong.

The confusion among Indians is not only between `K and Q` but also between `J and Z`

`....hindus and sikhs reading Ramayan and Japji Sahib in Urdu without any difficutly.`

You mean the persian script ( or Shahmukhi v/s Gurumukhi or devnagri) not the urdu language. There is already confusion among Pakistanis to place Urdu in the Arabic or Persian language group than Sanskrit. Please do not confuse them any more.)

The several sources quoted by Ajeya clearly show Urdu as being derived from Sanskrit, but will Tahmed or Shaista admit that?

Anil has been talking about his Kashmiri Brahamin background as a certiicate of his scholarship. Surprise! Kashmiri is not even part of the other North Indian language group and is not derived from Sanskrit. Please Anil Sahib, stop showing off your Kashmiri Brahamin heritage. We also know now that your Mami is from Braj and eighty years old, but can you stop dragging an old lady to support your arguments? Please show that Hindi was not derived from Sanskrit and your use of word `import` was justified.

Rgarding sanskrit teaching: schools in bombay (i guess maharashtra) had option of substituting hindi with 50% sanskrit, i dont know if its still true. Lot of folks chose it since it had a large grammar section in which you could score full marks. That resulted in a high 10-th grade score. That however did not mean that the snskrit-literate went on to read any books or poetry..they promptly forgot (after getting 98% marks) it after 10-th grade.

I with i took that option...apparently the romance (sringar rasa) in sanskrit is hot and heavy.

Parents generation had a much more extensive knowlegde, if they took sanskrit for McAuleys matric exam. They actually studied kalidasas plays etc. and could quote from them like tahmed quotes from quoran. Apparently, description of the female form in Meghdoot was particularly popular and left little to imagination.

anil#2292:
Urdu does have a ``P`` sound in ``Pay``. Despite fewer alphabets, Urdu does a remarkable job of capturing most phonetic sounds. I had seen in earlier days, elderly hindus and sikhs reading Ramayan and Japji Sahib in Urdu without any difficutly. And guess what, despite its fewer alphabets, we Punjabis still can`t distinguish between the Urdu `K` and `Q`. :-)

zahraj#299:

You are absolutely correct that Punjabis are given to drama and they have introduced a lot of dramebaazi in things like karva chauth as well, which has been glamourised far above anything that my mother would have recognised. Bollywood (and Canadian Immigration Rules:-)) are doing a lot to change Punjabi social mores. During my mother`s time no Punjbai woman had even heard of Mangal Sutra, which is now a standard jewellery item for all brides.

Fortunately, most of this drame-baazi is quite harmless and merely adds to the Punjabi jois-de-vivre.

re:#296 by Ajeya
I have no problem accepting that hindi is derived from sanskrit. Anybody saying otherwise does not know what he is talking.
However, i do have a lot of problems accepting that language tree(s) that u posted as the gospel truth.
It has been taught in academic circles for more than a century now that European and Indic languages (barring dravidian languages) are derived from a common source.
This kind of theory was first propounded by people like Max Mueller, William Jones etc who saw many commonalities between say sanskrit and Latin (max mueller must have seen a lot in common between sanskrit and german) and were puzzled as to how this was possible in a remote corner (which is what India was for them) and in a country that to them was in utter decay. They were unwilling to accept that perhaps their own languages were influenced by sanskrit. They invented this common source and called it Proto-Indo-European. One need not worry about this common source much as it was deemed to have existed at some point of time and disappeared at some point of time later.
I will say: how convenient!
Of course these fine gentlemen also invented the Aryan Invasion Theory. This has now been totally discredited in academic circles. Genetic studies have proved that the gene pool of for eg Indian populaiton is uniquely Indian with nothing much in common with Iranian or European genes (some commonalities are inevitable. Scientists look for genes that will be statistically much more common in a populaiton that could be explained only by migration from outside). South Indian brahmin genes (i think the study included Telugu brahmins) for eg is uniquely Indian.
Better anthropological, archeological techniques along with gene mapping, satellite imagery etc have sounded a death knell for the AIT. It will take sometime for people to forget just because it has taken such a hold on people`s minds even in India.
When there was no AIT, where is the question of a common root?
In all probability, sanskrit was the oldeste of all languages and influenced other cultures heavily in the past.
Sridhar

#298 by anil

[I might be able to quote you from the Anthology of Sanskrit that Sanskkrit was designed as the court and romance language. Being from a religious Kashmiri Brahmin family, I was taught Sanskrit and Hindi at the same time, and for about the same number of years.]

I am from a North Indian Brahmin family as well, and I was taught Sanskrit as part of High School curriculum. As well as Hindi. And I actually scored very high marks in Sanskrit.


[My interest in Sanskrit grammer was revived when I read a research book by MIT computer science scholar on Panini and Grammer for computer language. Although my Sanskrit is quite rusted, but understanding of its grammer is still good, as I pursued it as an interest during my computer science days. ]

It is good to know about your reading a book by a MIT Computer Scince person, and your understanding of Sanskrit grammar (which I will be discussing with you after this argument is over).

I will, however, be looking forward to your answer.

Re: # 158

dost mittar,

I am not sure if I 100% agree with your observation. Indians are far more traditionalists than anyone else. The women of today still follow the kurva chauth rasm even if they hate to fast. One acquaintance would curse the practice of fasting but still keeps the fast to show her committment to the practice. Another friend`s wife, made him shorten his business trip to be back with her befor she opened her fast. These are just a few examples.

In my not so humble view, Punjabis like a little bit of drama in everything in life. It can be simple or glamorous, but it has to be there :) Since we are on the subject of culture, our weddings are an advanced episode of that ongoing drama. All these rasmain shasmain add to the drama. Thanks to Indian plays/soap operas for adding fuel to the fire :)

Re: # 293

Sridhar:

I might be able to quote you from the Anthology of Sanskrit that Sanskkrit was designed as the court and romance language. Being from a religious Kashmiri Brahmin family, I was taught Sanskrit and Hindi at the same time, and for about the same number of years. My interest in Sanskrit grammer was revived when I read a research book by MIT computer science scholar on Panini and Grammer for computer language. Although my Sanskrit is quite rusted, but understanding of its grammer is still good, as I pursued it as an interest during my computer science days.

Anil

Oh, I forgot to supply the URL about the Government of Kerala:
(if you feel this is not authentic, all you have to do is SAY SO, and I`ll oblige. But first, you have to claim that it is not authentic)

http://www.chintha.com/keralam/malayalam-language-history.html

#289 by anil

[Re: # 277

Ajeya:

Please control you language when you respond and expect me to respond. ]


Actually, after you committed such a whopper, I was not expecting you to respond. But from your post it seems that you fancy yourself as a man of integrity - i.e. you don`t post anything without doing the research first.

Good. Then let`s proceed.

But let me tell you this in advance. If I prove you wrong by citing authentic sources, I would expect a retraction from you. I think that`s fair. If you don`t retract, i.e. you are unfair to me in this regard, all bets would be off regarding profanities and insult.



[BTW, please check your facts, Pune Marathi (Pune has been a center of Sanskrit), and for some reason Malyalam are much closer to Sanskrit than Hindi.]

I think YOU better check YOUR facts. Malayalam is a Dravidian language. Even the Government of Kerala thinks so:


``Malayalam, the official language of kerala, is one of the south dravidian language. It is believed that malayalam is derived from tamil (kodumthamizh), another south dravidian language, during the sangam period. But many words in malayalam are borrowed from Sanskrit, and this gives rise to a counter argument about the origin of the language.

The origin of Malayalam as a distinct language may be traced to the last quarter of 9th Century A.D. Malayalam first appeared in writing in the vazhappalli inscription which dates from about 830 AD. In the early thirteenth century the Malayalam script began to develop from a script known as vattezhuthu (round writing), a descendant of the Brahmi script. But malayalam as we know now is greatly simplified from 900 glyphs, which it originally had.

From the Department of public relations, govt. of kerala:

Malayalam is classified as a South Dravidian language. It is the official language of Kerala. About 31.8 million people consider Malayalam as their mother tongue. Possessing an independent written scipt, it also has a rich modern literature. There are at least five main regionaldialects of Malayalam and a number of communal dialects. It belongs to the Dravidian family. Many words have been borrowed from Sanskrits. There are 37 consonants and 16 vowels in the script. Malayalam has a written traditional dating back from the late 9th century and the earliest work dates from 13th century. The script used is called Kolezhethu (Rod-script) which is derived from ancient Grandha Script. Malayalam differs from other Dravidian language as the absence of personal endings on verbs. It has a one to one correspondence with the Indo Aryan Devanagari syllabarry.``

If the Government of Kerala says it is a Dravidian language, that DEFINITELY makes it UNRELATED to Sanskrit, REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY WORDS ARE BORROWED FROM SANSKRIT. For example, if English words were borrowed and used in very high numbers in Hindi, that wouldn`t make it any closer to English, linguistically.



[Although pure Banarsi hindiwalas like to claim that hindi is direct descendent of Sanskrit, becasue Benaras has been another center of Sanskrit and Hindi. This is pure rivalry, please do more research on this. ]


No, what this is, is pure garbage. Here are some refernces from linguists who have no dog in any fight:


Check out this link: http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/oe-ie.html



Or this one: http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html







Or this one: http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm







Or this one: http://www.bartleby.com/61/indoeuro.html







Or this one: http://www.friesian.com/cognates.htm (do a search on ``hindi``)












[You may learn something valuable than profanity and insult. ]

We shall see at the end who needs to be learning what valuable stuff. In fact, you might learn to correct your instinctS/general feelings about things with some actual facts the next time around.

Re: # 149

Anil,

Hi. I agree with your way of seeing things. Based on your examples, Pakistani culture has its own improvements as well. Obviously, things are not the same as they used to be 3 - 4 decades ago. There are more women in the universities and stuff. The fashion scene has changed dramatically. DM`s perspective is mainly around his nostalgia. If he thinks that Pakistanis have left their doors closed and allowed only the windows to stay open then I do not think he has the accurate picture in mind. You can see all doors, windows and ceiling opened in many cases whereas you will also find all doors, windows and ceilings tightly closed in other cases. Again, it is all to do with what you want to see and how you want to see.

Re: # 274

Tahmad:

...``of course Old Panjabi (or Hindustani as the englishman gilchrist called it i think, or kharri boli)...``

Oh no, Kharri Booli is very different from Punjabi. It is also called Braj Bhasa. The accents and words (some of the words - Dost-Mitter has written from Braj Bhasa) are no where near Punjabi. Amir Khusro, if I am not mistaken, lived, and his grave is in Nizamuddin, New Delhi. In his days, Nizamuddin, being closer to Mathura / Brindaban - center of Kharri Boli, probably influenced his choice of Kharri Boli, over the Purabia Boli, spoken Benaras. My maami is from Braj, and still at the age of 80 speaks Kharri Boli. It is spoken more from throat and mouth than nasal, and quite lyrical to listen.

Anil

re: Anil`s post
``Sanskrit was never a spoken language, in fact it was ``designed`` to be a romance and court language.``
Anil,
That is not true. In the old times, sanskrit was the language of the elite and the educated (much likewhat English is). Its use dwindled as it was not felt to be useful for the purpose of commerce or earning a living. Sanskrit was always spoken fluently by those who knew it. Even today, many people speak it well though the number is insignificant compared to other spoken languages. The sanskrit teacher in the school i studied was brilliant and a scholar who could easily converse in the language. Sanskrit is a very scientific language. Once u know the rules of grammar, sentence formation etc, the spoken language is just like u write it. It is sheer beauty. I have no trouble understanding the spoken language though i can`t speak it well myself.
After writing the 8 volume grammatical masterpiece ``Ashtadhyayi``, Panini could claim (with some arrogance!) ``He who knows my grammar knows God).
Sridhar

Re: # 276

Dost-Mitter:

I am sorry, I did not mean Urdu / Arabic alphabets have collapsed. I am saying to represent all phonetics of Hindi / Sanskrit / Marathi, there are 52 alphabets. To represent this entire set of all phonetics Urdu has only 24 or 26 alphabets. Therefore, phonetic sound must have been collapsed on to 24 or 26 alphabets in Urdu. For instance Arabic does not have ``Pa`` phonetic, and has ``Ba``. Therefore, when you hear an Arab speak, he may more comfortably say ``Car Bark``, rather than ``Car Park``. I suppose, Urdu resorts to equivalent of in Hindi to come closer to the phonetic. Likewise, Hindi did not have an alphabet to represent ``Za``, instead has ``Ja``. A bindi, underneath ``Ja`` is an import to make a compound phonetic, ``Za`` out of ``Ja``. One can frequently hear ``Ja`` being used where ``Za`` should be used.

Anil

Re: # 289

How about Bangla? I have heard many Bengalis taking pride in Bengali being
closest to Sanskrut.

Re: # 278

Sridhar:

YOu are correct, Hindi could have benefited more if rather than its blind supporters had not tried to prove it to be the direct descendant of Sanskrit. But instead had allowed it to absorb vocabulary from other Indian languages. I can never forget an incidence that I had observed many many years ago in Bangalore, shortly after DWH (Down With Hindi) campaign. DWH posters were still on the walls, and two three-wheeler drivers were fighting in Kannad but all the swear words were from Hindi. Sanskrit was never a spoken language, in fact it was ``designed`` to be a romance and court language. Panini is recognized as world`s first formal grammarian. Hindi`s evolution has been from ``grass-roots``. Its proof is in phonetic base, you write what you speak.

Anil

Re: # 277

Ajeya:

Please control you language when you respond and expect me to respond.

BTW, please check your facts, Pune Marathi (Pune has been a center of Sanskrit), and for some reason Malyalam are much closer to Sanskrit than Hindi. Although pure Banarsi hindiwalas like to claim that hindi is direct descendent of Sanskrit, becasue Benaras has been another center of Sanskrit and Hindi. This is pure rivalry, please do more research on this. You may learn something valuable than profanity and insult.

Anil

re:#281 by Netizen
Amen to that wish of yours.
Sridhar

re:#285 by teshah
Very true!
I read a funny incidence in the book ``Freedom at midnight`` (Larry collins, Lapierre). Quaid-e-azam Jinnah was giving his first independence day speech (mostly in english with some Urdu words interspersed) and ended his speech with ``Pakistan Zindabad``. This change was so sudden that most people thought he had said ``Pakistan is in the bag``!
Sridhar

re: tahmed`s post
(But urdu in pakistan has never had that ideological push to it that hindi (i.e. thru introduction of words from a dead language, sanskrit) has had in india...)
First of all, a slight correction.
Sanksrit is not a dead language. It is still listed as one of the national languages of India by the Indian constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_languages_of_India#Official_languages_.28Central_administrative.29). It is not widely spoken but is there are people writing books, debating in that language. Doordarshan has a daily news telecast in sanskrit. By efforts of some private individuals (see my earlier posts), one district in Karnatak has been delcared sanskrit-literate. A lot of songs in Carnatic music are sung in this language and immortalized by some greats like M.S. Subbuluxmi. So, i would be very hesitant to say this is a dead language.
You are right about the GOI`s push to make Hindi into a national language. This however ran into bad weather when South (especially TN) resisted. So, today hindi is widely spoken among masses in the North and english remains the official channel of communication between North and South. Popularity of hindi however is undeniable.
sridhar

#272-risidhar

And what an irony, it was the very Urdu which caused the breakup of `Qaide-Azam`s` Pkistan by his ill-advised promotion of Urdu which he himself could hardly speak.

#69 by bolta_aaina on November 21, 2005 0:55am PT


Nasatey in english would mean ``My Prayers for You`` i.e. Mr Prayers for your well being, good health, so on and so forth.

To say so is it a blasphmey in Islam?? Definitely not.


You don`t get it, do you?

Paki panties wouldn`t be in a knot if the dude had said ``My prayers to you``...It`s the hindoo influence they`re so uptight about...

It`s blasphemy against the idea of Pakiland...

#68 by Mantolives on November 20, 2005 11:50pm PT


I would be more worried about the destructive influence of Indian soaps like Saas bhee Kabhee Bahu thee which promote an abusive and obsessive patriarchal culture obsessed with non-classy and ostentatious show of wealth.


As opposed to a culture of getting yourself raped so you can get Canadian visas and millions of $$...

Maybe Pakiland can make a soap on that show of wealth..

Pakis are acting french..with their endless discussion of American culture...

Tahmed #256:

``the turkish ``urds`` were there in india, and gave rise to urdu, even before the mughals came to india. hindi came centuries later,``

If the Turkish ``Urds`` had not been in India, we would all be still grunting like baboons because the Turkish Urds gave rise to Urdu. And do not forget Amir Khusro. He used Urdu Script. Hindi came centuries later.

Who can argue with such twisted mind and confused logic?

Re: # 275

tahmed:

``Anyway, I wish you and rsridhar and all other chowkies a happy thanksgiving day. Let us use this occassion to thank the Lord for both hindi and urdu. :-)``

as we are discussing the turkish influence on the subcontinent, have a happy Turkey day :)

Some remixes are really works of art. I have a couple of VCD (made in Pakistan I think) of oldies like Saiyyaa.n Dill Mein Aanaa Re, Aake Phir Naa Jaanaa Re (original singer Shamshad Begum), Tere Naseeb Mein Mein Hun Ke Naheen, Mere Naseeb Mein Tu Hai Key Naheen (original singer Asha Bhosle?), etc. These are really good. But most remixes are vulgar and full of suggestive movements. Some day these good ones will be classics.

Re: # 274

tahmed:

``But urdu in pakistan has never had that ideological push to it that hindi (i.e. thru introduction of words from a dead language, sanskrit) has had in india.``

as i understand you are trying to say that current hindi is basically urdu minus the persian/arabic words, which are replaced by sanskrit/prakrit words.

don`t you think that by doing so hindi is brought back to somewhat close to the original language as it was spoken (may be like khari boli) before the addition of persian/arabic words?

i do think there is ideoloical push behind urdu too, or else why would pak have it as a national language when non-urdu speakers overwhelmed urdu speakers.

people do associate language as a part of cultural definition. in india too, tamil nadu exploded in violence when the center tried to impose hindi on them. they thought that north indians are imposing their culture on tamils.

unfortunately, urdu has been ``associated`` with muslims and hence pak accepted it as a part of its national identity whereas india favored hindi in its place.

re:#273 by anil
Hindi as a spoken language is popular even in south (thanks to bollywood) but as a literary language, there is nothing much to commend it. Neither it has the depth and sheer grandeur of sanskrit nor the beauty of urdu (even a novice like me can appreciate ghazals!). Hindi has also not grown the way it should have, considering it is constantly influenced by contact with people from non-hindi speakng regions. Tamil has many hindi words (i am not talking about sanskrit root words) like bazaar, shaabash. The word ``parwah illay`` in tamil is actually a local version of the urdu/hindi word ``parwah nahin``!
Anyway, i think the hindi purists have stifled its growth and made it too sanskritised to be of interest to some layman wanting to learn it as a literary language.
Sridhar

Re: #273 by anil

[In Hindi the emphasis had been to import from Sanskrit...]

WHY do you guys HAVE to make such moronic statements? I mean, WHY?

Hindi is a DIRECT DESCENDENT OF SANSKRIT!

And you say the ``emphasis`` has been to ``import`` (as from a different, unrelated language) from Sanskrit?

By god, HOW MUCH more idiotic can you get?

WHY do you guys say such obviously idiotic things? WHERE do you guys come from?


What SPECTACULAR idiocy! Boggles the mind!

anil#273:

I am not aware if the number of Urdu/Arabic alphaets have collapsed over time. As for Hindi, I cannot even pronounce some of the alphabets and I never see them being used. Perhaps, they are used in sanskrit.

I am personally persuaded that Urdu-Hindi are the same languages, though with different scripts. It seems important for the identity of subcontinental Muslims to think that ``their`` language, Urdu, has like themselves, roots outside India. And this is fine with me, too. What is undeniable is the beauty of Urdu and the Muslim contribution to it.

Netizen: interesting write up you provided. Thanks. I think my post to rsridhar also touches upon the issues you mention (and sorry for making the post unduly lengthy).

Anyway, I wish you and rsridhar and all other chowkies a happy thanksgiving day. Let us use this occassion to thank the Lord for both hindi and urdu. :-)

rsridhar: That quote you provide is from a website of Penn State on a section having to do with the IT aspects of providing fonts for different scripts, not on indian history. That explains the misleading generality you quote fro that website on that big bogeyman of hindu extremists - conversion of hindus to islam - which clearly has nothing to do with the basic purpose of that webpage, and has obviously been tossed in by whoever was asked to write that web page - not that anyone outside india really cares about this earthshaking issue of hindu conversions.

Let us therefore focus on the facts, rather than looking for something on the internet to support some point of view. The fact is that, like I said, urdu developed as a result of the incursions into india of turk armies. The word urdu itself is of turkish origin, meaning camp. of course Old Panjabi (or Hindustani as the englishman gilchrist called it i think, or kharri boli) was a key feed into urdu (along with turkish originally, and later persian, arabic and now english as well). Thus, urdu developed in pre-mughal times, contrary to the ``knowledge`` being shed (and put in bold) to that website. And initially it had a lot of turkish words, with persian becoming more prominent after being adopted as language of the court.

i didnt say anything about urdu being the great liberator for us pakis - I did say that we pakis have accepted urdu as our common language, and in doing so changed it from the original urdu that the urdu-speaking muhajirs had brought with them in 1947 (see my post below to dm on this). The pakistan government did try to force urdu as a national language in the beginning (mostly thanks to urdu-loving liaqat ali khan), and that was met with language riots of the early 1950`s in bengal. But urdu in pakistan has never had that ideological push to it that hindi (i.e. thru introduction of words from a dead language, sanskrit) has had in india. It has found roots in the fertile soil of the panjab, the land which has remained open to new ideas for centuries, and whose people are not a single racial group but rather (as the name panjab itself reflects) merely anyone who made the land of the five rivers their home. With musharaff (from an urdu speaking delhi family) with his panjabi-accented urdu a perfect example of this.

This is why urdu does not need the pakistan government`s support to thrive. It is now very much a part of the pakistan national identity, at least for now. Although, like i wrote earlier, ultimately both urdu and hindi are withering under a far more powerful force, namely globalization - and that is why you and i communicate in english, not in hindi or urdu.

Re: # 257

That is my point as well. In fact overwhelming number of words in the spoken vocabulary in Urdu and Hindi (except of Verbs, and Pronouns) are imported from other languages. In Hindi the emphasis had been to import from Sanskrit, but Bollywood changed that and now the import is also from colloquial regional languages. Whereas, Urdu is importing words from Persian. Obviously speakers of both languages import words from English. More in Hindi than Urdu speakers from Pakistan. Verbs and pronouns being the same / similar in these two languages, show the common grass root, and not being imposed by higher authorities. Use of Sanskrit words in Hindi is imposed by Doordarshan. It is accepted by linguist that every 8 to 10 generations the language goes through transformation, because vocabulary becomes different.

Devnagri has 52 alphabets, where as Urdu, I believe has only 24 or 26 alphabets. Spoken Hindi / Urdu are phonetic languages. There are four or five devnagri alphabets (a form of ``sh``, and a form of ``Ri`` in Rishi). These alphabets are dying out from spoken language. Somthing similar must have happened when Urdu was evolving with even lesser alphabets. Therefore, in Urdu many phonems must have been collapsed to fit in 24 or 26 alphabets. This could only be a later phenomenon.

Anil

re:#256 by tahmed32
Ha, ha.
Tahmed sahib,
You almost sound like Urdu is this great liberator of Paki muslims from oppression. If Urdu was meant as a way of communication, are u aware that barely 8% of Paki population can even read or write the language?
Compare that to hindi being spoken/understood by at least 40% of Indian population and u will know how urdu is losing out after the zealots deemed it a muslim language in the prepartition era
http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=URD
Not to burst your bubble, but this is what another site has to say:
http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/bylanguage/urdu.html
(The Urdu Language
Urdu is one of the national languages of Pakistan. The language is not related to Arabic, but to languages of Northern India, especially Hindi. In fact, many linguists consider Urdu and Hindi to be the same language written in two different scripts with different technical vocabulary.

During the Mughal period in Northern India, some people in the Hindustan region converted to Islam and began using the Arabic script. This language became Urdu. Others remained Hindu and used the Devanagari alphabet. This language became Hindi.

Because Urdu is close to Hindi, their language uses letters not found in Arabic. Urdu speakers need both Arabic script support and Urdu support. )
Sridhar

#256
tahmed:

``hindi on the other hand is an artificial creation (with words from a dead language (i.e. a language no longer spoken by anyone, like Latin), replacing some words of the hated ``foreign origin`` in urdu). urdu, on the other hand, resulted from the need for soldiers from different ethnic groups to communicate - and thus became known as the language of the ``military`` camp, or urd (in turkish). ``

urdu developed due to interaction of turks with the local population, who spoke khari boli (local form of hindi).
do you think an iranian will inderstand urdu (other than the persian loan words)?

read this:

Originally the term Hindustânî (``of the land of the Hindus``) was the name given by the Turco-Persian Mogul conquerors of India to Khariboli, the local form of Hindi at their capital, Delhi, and nearby cities. As a contact language between the two cultures, Hindustani absorbed large numbers of Persian, Arabic, and Turkic words, and with further Moslem conquest it spread as a lingua franca across northern India. It remained the primary lingua franca of India for the next four centuries, although it varied significantly in vocabulary depending to the local language, and it achieved the status of a literary language, along with Persian, in the Moslem courts. In time it came to be called Urdu (zabân-i-urdû ``language of the army/camp`` in Persian), and as the highly Persianized court language, rexta, or ``mixed``.


Colloquial Urdu, on the other hand, basically is Hindustani; it has been argued that Standard Hindi is a form of colloquial Urdu, intentionally de-Persianized and de-Arabicized, with its formal vocabulary borrowed instead from Sanskrit. This kind of argument is popular with those who want to see show Urdu as a distinct language as compared to Hindi, with considerable cross-pollination from either side, in keeping with their distinct identity as Muslims of the sub-continent. But linguistically speaking, the root of a language is identified by its grammar - Urdu grammar is 100% Sanskrit derived. Today we find more and more English words used in Hindi. If the proportion of English words used in Hindi were to increase dramatically, and people started writing Hindi using English alphabets - that would be similar to the scenario that describes the divergence of Urdu from Hindustani as it stands today. The colloquial language spoken by villagers and the lower classes of Delhi is indistinguishable by ear, whether it is called Hindi or Urdu by its speakers. The important distinction at this level is in the script: if written in the Arab-Persian script, the language is generally considered to be Urdu, and if written in devanagari it is generally considered to be Hindi. However, since independence and partition the formal registers used in education and the media have become increasingly divergent in their vocabulary. Where there is no colloquial word for a concept, Standard Urdu uses Perso-Arabic vocabulary, while Standard Hindi uses Sanskrit vocabulary. This results in the official languages being heavily Sanskritized or Persianized, and nearly unintelligible to speakers educated in the other standard. At the end of the day, however, linguistically, Urdu, because of its grammar and structure, is a Sanskrit-derived language - albeit with a plethora of Arabic and Persian words that reflect the yearning of the Muslims of the subcontinent to adopt a more ``Islamic`` identity.

Urdu has become so entrenched as a separate language in the psyche of the Muslims of the subcontinent that they often claim that Hindi and Urdu have always been separate languages. However, there are unifying forces as well. For example, it is said that Indian Bollywood films are made in ``Hindi``, but the language used in most of them is the same as that of Urdu speakers in Pakistan. The dialogue is frequently developed in English and later translated to an intentionally neutral Hindustani which can be easily understood by speakers of most North Indian languages, both in India itself and in Pakistan. The songs, however, are typically pure Urdu (meaning that they have a high concentration of Persian and Arabic words in them, like raisins in a pudding), and many of the top Urdu poets make their livings writing for ``Hindi`` films. That is why Indian film is extremely popular in Pakistan, and Pakistani TV is likewise popular in India.

#256
tahmed:

``hindi on the other hand is an artificial creation (with words from a dead language (i.e. a language no longer spoken by anyone, like Latin), replacing some words of the hated ``foreign origin`` in urdu). urdu, on the other hand, resulted from the need for soldiers from different ethnic groups to communicate - and thus became known as the language of the ``military`` camp, or urd (in turkish). ``

urdu developed due to interaction of turks with the local population, who spoke khari boli (local form of hindi).
do you think an iranian will inderstand urdu (other than the persian loan words)?

read this:

Originally the term Hindustânî (``of the land of the Hindus``) was the name given by the Turco-Persian Mogul conquerors of India to Khariboli, the local form of Hindi at their capital, Delhi, and nearby cities. As a contact language between the two cultures, Hindustani absorbed large numbers of Persian, Arabic, and Turkic words, and with further Moslem conquest it spread as a lingua franca across northern India. It remained the primary lingua franca of India for the next four centuries, although it varied significantly in vocabulary depending to the local language, and it achieved the status of a literary language, along with Persian, in the Moslem courts. In time it came to be called Urdu (zabân-i-urdû ``language of the army/camp`` in Persian), and as the highly Persianized court language, rexta, or ``mixed``.


Colloquial Urdu, on the other hand, basically is Hindustani; it has been argued that Standard Hindi is a form of colloquial Urdu, intentionally de-Persianized and de-Arabicized, with its formal vocabulary borrowed instead from Sanskrit. This kind of argument is popular with those who want to see show Urdu as a distinct language as compared to Hindi, with considerable cross-pollination from either side, in keeping with their distinct identity as Muslims of the sub-continent. But linguistically speaking, the root of a language is identified by its grammar - Urdu grammar is 100% Sanskrit derived. Today we find more and more English words used in Hindi. If the proportion of English words used in Hindi were to increase dramatically, and people started writing Hindi using English alphabets - that would be similar to the scenario that describes the divergence of Urdu from Hindustani as it stands today. The colloquial language spoken by villagers and the lower classes of Delhi is indistinguishable by ear, whether it is called Hindi or Urdu by its speakers. The important distinction at this level is in the script: if written in the Arab-Persian script, the language is generally considered to be Urdu, and if written in devanagari it is generally considered to be Hindi. However, since independence and partition the formal registers used in education and the media have become increasingly divergent in their vocabulary. Where there is no colloquial word for a concept, Standard Urdu uses Perso-Arabic vocabulary, while Standard Hindi uses Sanskrit vocabulary. This results in the official languages being heavily Sanskritized or Persianized, and nearly unintelligible to speakers educated in the other standard. At the end of the day, however, linguistically, Urdu, because of its grammar and structure, is a Sanskrit-derived language - albeit with a plethora of Arabic and Persian words that reflect the yearning of the Muslims of the subcontinent to adopt a more ``Islamic`` identity.

Urdu has become so entrenched as a separate language in the psyche of the Muslims of the subcontinent that they often claim that Hindi and Urdu have always been separate languages. However, there are unifying forces as well. For example, it is said that Indian Bollywood films are made in ``Hindi``, but the language used in most of them is the same as that of Urdu speakers in Pakistan. The dialogue is frequently developed in English and later translated to an intentionally neutral Hindustani which can be easily understood by speakers of most North Indian languages, both in India itself and in Pakistan. The songs, however, are typically pure Urdu (meaning that they have a high concentration of Persian and Arabic words in them, like raisins in a pudding), and many of the top Urdu poets make their livings writing for ``Hindi`` films. That is why Indian film is extremely popular in Pakistan, and Pakistani TV is likewise popular in India.

re:#241 by Ajeya
Even though Urdu and Hindi have same roots, Indian govt has spared no efforts to thoroughly sanskritise Hindi while Paki govt has done the same by Arabising Urdu. That is why Hindi news on Doordarshan could be understood only by a few. Ditto with urdu news on PTV. That is why news on Zee tv, with a fair mixture of urdu and hindi, is so attractive.
Urdu is a great language with a lot of literary merits and great poetry. It is a pity it just became a language of muslims after partition. Muslim league did not spare even this language when it made it clear that this was the language of muslims. Indian govt literally resuscitated a sleeping language (which is what hindi was before 1947; only pundits learnt it along with sanskrit. urdu was the medium of instruction in school and the language of the court and officialdom) and is now tremendously popular and secular. Present generation muslims in India are learning hindi rather than Urdu (i was amused to read the the famous urdu poet Ismat Chaughtai`s daughter did not know urdu but knew only hindi!)
Sridhar

Re: #264 by mannyd


:-D

Re: 261 by myself


A correction. English is one Of the few European languages NOT derived directly from Latin, but from a Latin precursor. It is Germanic-derived, which again is derived from a Latin precursor.


Here`s a portion of the Indo-European language tree from scholars who are not trying to smear themselves with camel-dung:

.
.
.
.
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:BARELI (BGD) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:BAURIA (BGE) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:BHILALI (BHI) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:BHILI (BHB) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:BHILORI (BQI) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:CHODRI (CDI) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:DHODIA (DHO) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:DUBLI (DUB) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:DUNGRA BHIL (DUH) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:GAMIT (GBL) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:GARASIA:ADIWASI (GAS) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:GARASIA:RAJPUT (GRA) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:MAWCHI (MKE) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:PARDHI (PCL) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:RATHAWI (RTW) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Bhil:WAGDI (WBR) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Dom:DOMARI (RMT) Iran
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:AER (AEQ) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:GUJARATI (GJR) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:JANDAVRA (JND) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:KOLI:KACHI (GJK) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:KOLI:PARKARI (KVX) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:KOLI:WADIYARA (KXP) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:SAURASHTRA (SAZ) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:VAGHRI (VGR) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Gujarati:VASAVI (VAS) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Khandesi:AHIRANI (AHR) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Khandesi:DHANKI (DHN) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Khandesi:KHANDESI (KHN) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Panjabi:PANJABI:EASTERN (PNJ) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Marwari:DHATKI (MKI) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Marwari:GOARIA (GIG) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Marwari:LOARKI (LRK) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Marwari:MARWARI (MKD) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Marwari:MARWARI (MRI) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Marwari:MEWARI (MTR) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:BAGRI (BGQ) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:GUJARI (GJU) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:GURGULA (GGG) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:HARAUTI (HOJ) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:LAMBADI (LMN) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:LOHAR:GADE (GDA) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:MALVI (MUP) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Rajasthani:Unclassified:NIMADI (NOE) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Balkan:ROMANI:BALKAN (RMN) Yugoslavia
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Northern:ROMANI:BALTIC (ROM) Poland
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Northern:ROMANI:CARPATHIAN (RMC) Czech Republic
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Northern:ROMANI:KALO FINNISH (RMF) Finland
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Northern:ROMANI:SINTE (RMO) Yugoslavia
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Northern:ROMANI:WELSH (RMW) United Kingdom
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Romani:Vlax:ROMANI:VLAX (RMY) Romania
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Unclassified:PARYA (PAQ) Tajikistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Unclassified:SONHA (SOI) Nepal
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Unclassified:THARU:DANGAURA (THL) Nepal
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Unclassified:THARU:KATHORIYA (TKT) Nepal
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Bundeli:BUNDELI (BNS) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Hindustani:HINDI (HND) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Hindustani:Sansi:KABUTRA (KBU) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Hindustani:Sansi:SANSI (SSI) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Hindustani:URDU (URD) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:BHAYA (BHE) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:BRAJ BHASHA (BFS) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:CHAMARI (CDG) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:GHERA (GHR) Pakistan
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:GOWLI (GOK) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:HARYANVI (BGC) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Central zone:Western Hindi:Unclassified:KANAUJI (BJJ) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:East Central zone:AWADHI (AWD) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:East Central zone:BAGHELI (BFY) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:East Central zone:CHHATTISGARHI (HNE) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:East Central zone:DHANWAR (DHA) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:East Central zone:HINDUSTANI:FIJIAN (HIF) Fiji
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Eastern zone:Bengali-Assamese:ASSAMESE (ASM) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Eastern zone:Bengali-Assamese:BENGALI (BNG) Bangladesh
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Eastern zone:Bengali-Assamese:BISHNUPRIYA (BPY) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Eastern zone:Bengali-Assamese:CHAKMA (CCP) India
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Eastern zone:Bengali-Assamese:CHITTAGONIAN (CIT) Bangladesh
Indo-European:Indo-Iranian:Indo-Aryan:Eastern zone:Bengali-Assamese:HAJONG (HAJ) India
.
.
.
.

#265:` Chew on it till I get back`

Brave sir Tahmed ran away.
He tucked his tail and ran , ran, ran away. HAHAHAHAHA.

mannyd: My loyal campfollower is back!! Dutifully reading all my posts. Let me toss you a bone with this post. Chew on it till I get back. Cry on the shoulders of your fellow indian burnt up men about bad, bad mullah tahmed. ha! ha!

#261 AJeya: Mullah Tahmed32`s lack of logic is exceeded only by his arrogance in his own intelligence...LOL.
Now he`ll tell you that he will not read any of your posts. He does not or can not actually read any thing at all.

His telling DM to remember Khusro after DM wrote about Khusro is just hillarious. Chowk will be a very dull place without him.

In a few minutes he is about to accuse all Indinas, discussing Sanskrit, of burning 12 year old Muslim girls.

Re: # 253

``# 252, the top actressess come from decent backgrounds, some starlets who dont make it big do get into prostitution.``

recent e.g. monica bedi

Ajeya: As I told you before, I dont have any interest in your views. Nor in your abuse and name-calling, which is all you and your kind of burnt up little men from india are capable of doing on chowk. Last post to you - go ahead and start smoldering some more.

Re: #256 by tahmedIdiot

[...hindi on the other hand is an artificial creation (with words from a dead language (i.e. a language no longer spoken by anyone, like Latin)...]


Let`s parse this idiot`s logic, or lack of it.

So then English is an artificial creation as well, with words from the dead language Latin?

And ALL the North Indian languages are artificial creations likewise, with words from the dead language Sanskrit.

And ALL the European languages are artificial creations, with words from the dead language Latin.



Why is it that Chowk is so infested with such classic idiots?

#259 (continued) and so in fact, while urdu has evolved, it is in the directon in #259 below - not in the direction of more farsi words (which in fact are in a bit of a retreat in the face of arabic words (although this phenomenon, despite the much lamented replacement of khuda hafiz with allah hafiz, is a side-show relative to the two more important factors in noted in #259 below.

btw, interestingly, farsi seems to be in bigger retreat before arabic words in its homeland itself - an iranian woman returning from iran first mentioned this to me (she attributed this to the maulvi government, and claimed she could barely understand this ``new farsi``, and i checked with our resident persian (in addition, of course to sugarcane) expert behram who confirmed this as well.

dost mittar #258/9 Urdu has indeed evolved very rapidly in Pakistan after partition as a result of (1) its broad acceptance and usage by traditionally panjabi speaking households; and (2) the influence of english. As a result of (1), the urdu accent of the ``ahle-zabaan`` is no longer considered the standard (as was the case in the early days), and I found it amusing to hear even general musharaff (dehlavi) speaking panjabi-style urdu, i.e. with a stress on the last syllable, followed by an italian-style trailing vowel: ``we wiLLa do thiSa`` :-). And (2) results in urdu words being replaced by english (no one today would think of calling a museum and ajayab ghar).

tahmed32:

I forgot to add that Amir Khusro was indeed a literary writer. As I said in my post, Urdu fanatics can claim it to be Urdu because he most probably wrote in persian script and Hindi fanatics can claim it to be Hindi because that is what it sounds like today. Of course, Khusro couldn`t care less!

anil:

There were probably fewer differences in 1947 than are now. Hindi is being more sanskritised in India and Urdu/Panjabi is more persianised in Pakistan. Let me give you an example, spend a day talking to a Pakistani and you are almost certain to hear the word ``masla``. Spend the same day talking to a Hindian and you will hardly hear this word, instead you will hear ``samasya`` or more likelty in this Hinglish era, ``problem``.

Incidentally, there is the same difference in Punjabi spoken on both sides. If you hear an Indian Punjabi program, you are likely to hear many sanskrit words like aagya, swaagat, etc., especially if you are hearing a Sikh program. On the Pakistani side, the same Punjabi langage will use more persian-origin words, such as masla, hukum.

Frankly, I find this whole debate silly. The two languages are basically the same. The grammar is the same as was used by the indigenous people, as I showed from Amir Khusro`s compositions. The language ie enriched by contributions from several languages; unfortunately, there is a tendency in India to replace persian with sanskrit words and in Pakistan to go for more persian words. The result is that Indians cannot understand Pakistani Urdu news and Pakistanis cannot understand Indian Hindi news.

tahmed32#256:

``you are forgetting amir khusro (13th-14th centuries), a poet in both farsi and what he called hindvi``

Did I forget Khusro or did you forget to read my post? Here is what I wrote:
``The grammatical structure is no different from that of khari boli used by that great scholar-poet from Iran, Hazrat Khusro. If you listen to Hazrat Khusro`s compositions like ``Chhaap tilak sab chheeni re`` or ``Aaj rang de``, they have the same grammatical structure as the two languages have today. Urdu grammar is neither Persian nor Arabic nor Turkish but based on indigenous languages. Incidentally, Khusro almost certainly used the persian script, i.e., right to left, for his compositions, so in a sense, he was writing Urdu. But when one hears his compositions, they sound like pure Hindi with hardly any Persian, Turkish or Arabic words. This was not for lack of knowledge as he was also a first rate Persian poet.``

You are right hindvi was not hindi but pretty close. Please read the words again:

Chhaap, Tilak, Chheenee, Re, Tose, NainaaN, Laggayeke.

These are all words which you would today call Hindi. There is not a single Persian, Turkish or Arabic word in there. Amir Khusro wanted to reach the masses and he used the language of the masses to reach them. I am not a linguist but Amir Khusro might be the first literary Hindi writer, based on vocabulary and grammar used. He was, of course, quite oblivious of the controversy between Urdu and Hindi.

Let us remember that 95% of the population until a century or two ago was illiterate, so language for them meant only spoken language. And they spoke neither Hindi nor Urdu, but regional languages, such as pothohari, jhangi, multani, hindko and other versions of Punjabi, thinking only of Punjab. In North India where Urdu and Hindi finally developed as literary languages in the last two hundred years, the languages spoken were khari boli, awadhi, braj bhasha, bhojpuri, etc. They all had a common grammatical structure derived perhaps from Pali and Prakrat. While I am unwilling to bet anything (i.e., I am uncertain), I think that the grammar of Urdu is not the same as the grammar of Turkish, Arabic or Persian, despite heavy borrowing of vocabulary from those languages.

dost mittar #244 ``Neither Hindi nor Urdu were well developed literary languages until the 18th-19th centuries.``

you are forgetting amir khusro (13th-14th centuries), a poet in both farsi and what he called hindvi (not to be confused with hindi - the script is urdu, and the words are easily understandable by an urdu speaker even today, after the passage of 7 centuries!). urdu in fact predates the mughals, being a natural development of turkish invasions, and the word ``urdu`` itself is of turkish origin (urd=military camp, same word the english word ``horde`` is derived from). hindi on the other hand is an artificial creation (with words from a dead language (i.e. a language no longer spoken by anyone, like Latin), replacing some words of the hated ``foreign origin`` in urdu). urdu, on the other hand, resulted from the need for soldiers from different ethnic groups to communicate - and thus became known as the language of the ``military`` camp, or urd (in turkish). and this flexibility of urdu is what has given it a new home in Pakistan, as Pakistanis of different linguistic groups have found it a useful common language.

english, btw, has the same flexibility - it started as an anglo-saxon language, picked up a lot of danish words after 5th century AD due to viking invasions (english words like sky, skin and so forth are all of viking origin); then picked up french words (beef, mutton, and so forth) after the norman invasion, then some latin words (which the priests stuck in), and today has a vocabulary of 3 million words (by comparison, french has under 1 hundred thousand words, and urdu and hindi both have even fewer I suspect). So - while urdu or hindi or panjabi or any other ethnic language may work well for the man in the street - the demands for new words and concepts that our increasingly technologically sophisticated societies require can only be met by english.

so, the competition is not between urdu and hindi, which the forces of globalization are going to replace with a common world language, english, whether we like it or not. but let us not change history - the turkish ``urds`` were there in india, and gave rise to urdu, even before the mughals came to india. hindi came centuries later, and is still not getting full acceptance even in bollywood.

Re: # 253
What about your reference to Mr. ManmohanSing related to film industry. Was he working in some capacity to indian film Industry. ( I am cofused , may be as have not seen movie or TV for decades- physical problem). It is interesting for sure, nothing wrong is largest industry in world in that business.

The influence is great and is inavoidable.
Somebody can write how much is influence is in canada or Mexico of USA.
Even in this medium the india woman is given important post. No body can think of giving such post to say Irani or turk or even Afghani. Here only Indians and citizens of IRP interact. It is sad but others do not feel interested as they have no cuttural or language connection.
I have great respect for Mr. Romair he said pakistan has future in westward connection seems not right. Now ther will be link/ rail between Sindh and India. Nobody talks of with urgency to coonct with Iran by rail. Its unfortunate but pakistan has only real connection with people is only in India not any other country. China has language problem and they eat with sticks and eat anything they can ( Only thing of four legs they do not gobble is table and two legged thing they do not eat is human- in cultural revolution they ate humans also,) and they look like chinese not like punjabi or MQM so they are bit forign type. One should look at things pragmatically and accept influence as interaction not ``invasion``. The economy of iran or A.stan will never be significant to help us. The largest economies of china and India if properly used can become locomotive ( with thoughtful and courageous coupling and in some ways decoupling with these giant economies)for pulling our economy and get help in improving even growth rates. This is already happening with smuggled goods flooding from China and India. The backward looking and paranoid worries about ``cultural invasion``are some times used bye unefficient business groups to close markets to goods. The crunch will around year 2015 as population reaches around 225 million. These are unnecessary worry of do nothing people and professional worry people. Generally every thing is fime and cultural etc nothing has changed.

# 252, the top actressess come from decent backgrounds, some starlets who dont make it big do get into prostitution.

Re: # 186

Indian Prime minister had for film Industry in earlier times ? ( never read)

by amansandhu on November 22, 2005 6:34pm PT
there was an article in the sunday mag of sydney morning herald that said that most actresses in pakistan were prostitutes or daughters of protitutes, is that really true.
[Reply to interact #203]

My comment is unofficial estimate is around 50%.
What about Indian actress in India ?

#248 Ajeya, What u back? NOt scared for your life or your car anymore are ya?

Re: # 244

Dost-Mitter:

I wonder if you know how many words speakers of Hindi and Urdu have in their spoken vocabulary of Hindi and Urdu, which truly are Hindi and Urdu words, and do not come from other languages like Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic and Turkish.

I would guess these would be mainly verbs and pronouns, the rest are probably now from other languages that have influenced.

Anil

rsridhar,
Let me share an interesting story i read about Tamil and Sanskrit debate, while you are at it. At one of the cultural meetings in Chennai, Karuna Nidhi (DMK chief) and C.Narayana Reddy (Telugu writer) were on the dias. Karuna Nidhi gave a forceful speech in which he said, he favors removal of all Sanskrit words from Tamil. Next speech was given by C Narayana Reddy, in which he said that lets start removing all Sanskrit words in Tamil. Let the starting point be with the words Karuna and Nidhi both which have origins in Sanskrit :)

I read this somewhere but i do not know about the reaction from DMK chief.

There is debate about many things under the sun, but about ONE thing ALL linguists agree - Urdu`s grammar and structure is Sankrit-derived - 100%.


So what are the differences?



1) Urdu has a plethora of Arabic and Persian words in it

This does not change the fact that it is Sankrit-derived - if you use more and more english words in Hindi, it will be a VARIANT of Hindi, and might start to look different from Hindi if people use mostly English words in that bastardized language.

(To identify with the glorious Islamic culture, this is what the pure-Islamic-wannabes did).



2) Urdu is written right to left, in the Arabic script.

If you write Hindi using English alphabets, IT IS STILL Hindi. Bastardized and ridiculous perhaps, but still Hindi.

post #246 main chand khaamiyan thiN
jin ko saabiq wozrah ki tarah
tahmed naiN ab
jilawatani ki tanhaaiaN diN.

dobaara yeh arz hai:

teshah nai khitab kiya shaista ko
``baeti, humari pusht ``khuda``
kehtay ghabraati hai
akbar allahabadi kay maanind
police ki rapat say kapkapaati hai``

but teshah sahib:

akbar khudabadi nain ik shaer
yeh bhi kalam band kiya
``kya kahooN iss ko maiN badbakHti-e-nation kay siwa
iss ko aata nahiN ab kuchh imitation kay siwa ``

khuda kiyaa, is nation naiN to roti ko bhi alwidah kiya!
hamburger or fry say paet bhar kay ekhlaas kiya!!
akbar khudabadi ko allah janat e firdaus ata karay
aur qaum ko salees urdu say araaasta karay

teshah nai khitab kiya shaista ko
``baeti, humari pusht ``khuda``
kehtay ghabraati hai
akbar allahabadi kay maanind
police ki rapat say kapkapaati hai``

but teshah sahib:

akbar khudabadi nain ik shaer
yeh bhi kalam band kiya
``kya kahooN iss ko maiN badbakHti-e-nation kay siwa
iss ko aata nahiN ab kuchh imitation kay siwa ``

khuda kiyaa, is nation naiN to roti ko bhi alwidah kiya!
hamburger or fry say ikhlaas kiya!!
akbar khudabadi ko allah janat naseeb karay
aur qaum ko salees urdu say aaraish karay

Shaista

``But such a trend developing in our channels is not a cultural invasion, it is a culture cloning of the Indians and a cultural marshal law imposed on the masses.``

A good attempt at that young age. Of course a cultural martial law, but of another kind, is being imposed on the illiterate masses of Pakistan who are being duped to think as though they are not living in the Indian Sub-continent but in the Middle East. We have lost our `Khuda` even not to speak of `taranas` sung by Allama Iqbal expressing love for India like ``Hindi hein ham watan he Hindostan hamaara, Ham bulbulein hein iski yih gulstan hamaara``. Even Akbar Allah Abadi had bevailed this loss long ago as per his Urdu couplet:-

``Raqibon ne rapat likhwaai ja ja ke thane mein
kih Akbar nam leta he Khuda ka is zamane mein``

So you should not be afraid of `Namaste` or `Remix`, adding sleaze factor to the bashful (nicely put), dear Shaista, when we, the generation who envisioned Pakistan, are bemoaning loss of our ``Khuda Hafiz`` and over-splash of `Inshallah,Mashallah`.

Oh, that hindi-urdu controversy again!

I do not think that there should be much controversy on this subject.

Both languages have the same grammar. And that grammar predates Urdu. The grammatical structure is no different from that of khari boli used by that great scholar-poet from Iran, Hazrat Khusro. If you listen to Hazrat Khusro`s compositions like ``Chhaap tilak sab chheeni re`` or ``Aaj rang de``, they have the same grammatical structure as the two languages have today. Urdu grammar is neither Persian nor Arabic nor Turkish but based on indigenous languages. Incidentally, Khusro almost certainly used the persian script, i.e., right to left, for his compositions, so in a sense, he was writing Urdu. But when one hears his compositions, they sound like pure Hindi with hardly any Persian, Turkish or Arabic words. This was not for lack of knowledge as he was also a first rate Persian poet.

Both Hindi and Urdu are relatively young languages. It is only in the 19th century that Muslims adopted Urdu as ``their`` language and Hindus adopted ``Hindi`` as their langugae. Before that, regional languages like Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Rajasthani, Punjabi, etc. were the medium of the uneducated. For the educated, it was English for the babu class and persian for the munshi class. Neither Hindi nor Urdu were well developed literary languages until the 18th-19th centuries.

Shaista, you had some good points. IMO, you should have avoided some of your statements. They made you look ignorant and not very `enlightened` (to borrow from President Musharraf).

Inshallah, Pakistani culture will become even more vibrant, and you will have absolutely no reason to worry. (no, I have not become a Muslim :)).

---

Dharma, some north Indian zealots do not sufficiently appreciate the wonderful diversity of our racial stock. Nor are they aware of the rich multiplicity of our cultural heritage. Apologies for mistaking you as one such person.

Burpinder...surely, impressing a tone-deaf person like me is one thing, and growing up to rival Lata ji`s genius is quite another. Will grant that.

Kalihawa, thanks! That answers a long-standing and very troubling question. :)

re:#232 by Netizen
There are many Tamilians who staunchly believe Tamil predates sanskrit. I am not an expert in the matter and i wish people like Harimau were there to give their opinion. I know that some archiological evidences of late point to a very ancient Tamil civilization. As per Graham Hancock the marine archeologist, Poompuhar, the ancient submerged city, may be more than 7000 years old!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1033877/posts
(The 2001 expedition was funded by Channel Four of Britain and Learning Channel of the US in association with the National Institute of Oceanography (NIO), Goa.

It led Hancock to surmise that the city could have been submerged by a tidal wave as high as 400 ft somewhere between 17,000 and 7,000 years ago.

Other experts like Glenne Milne, a geologist at the University of Durham, UK, agree with Hancock. Video footage of the site shows that the submerged city near Poompuhar was far superior to constructions found in Harappan sites. )

Tamil itself is an ancient language, older than Latin and perhaps as old as sanskrit.
Here is from a site that talks about the language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_language
(Like the other Dravidian languages, but unlike most of the other established literary languages of India, the origins of Tamil are independent of Sanskrit. Tamil has the longest unbroken literary tradition amongst the Dravidian languages. Tamil tradition dates the oldest works to several millennia ago, but the earliest examples of Tamil writing we have today are in inscriptions from the 3rd century BCE, which are written in an adapted form of the Brahmi script (Mahadevan, 2003). Dating the earliest literary works themselves is difficult, in large part because they were preserved either in palm leaf manuscripts (implying repeated copying and recopying) or through oral transmission. Internal linguistic evidence, however, indicates that the oldest extant works were probably composed sometime between the 2nd century BCE and the 3rd century CE. The earliest available text is the Tolkāppiyam, a work on poetics and grammar which describes the language of the classical period, portions of which date back to around 200 BCE. Archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language to around 1000 BCE.[1] The most significant epic written in the ancient Tamil language is the Silappadikaram, composed around 200-300 CE.)

My take on this is that Tamil was the dominant language of south and northerers influenced the south thr` vedic, other spiritual teachings. Much of sanskrit words crept in during this influence. Early tamil grammar was written by sage Agasthya, a north indian sage who migrated south and is more famous in south today. Another sage who wrote Thirumanthiram (a tamil version of vedas) was also a north indian who settled down in south and assumed the name of Thirumoolar. The influence is unmistakable.
Sridhar

#234 by ahmadzai

[Hindi-Urdu

If what the various posters are having me believe that Hindi and Urdu have the same roots, then I think that these days Indians are not speaking Hindi, but what will be termed street language by Urdu appreciating people. Some people have coined a word ‘Hindustani’ for the new dialect being made popular by new movies.

An Indian friend of our family told us that she can speak Hindi and Urdu, but when she did, I thought it is better for her to speak English, because her Hindi was a lot streetish for me. I would never want my near and dear ones to speak Urdu in that form. ]


Hindi and Urdu have the same roots, like ethanol and methanol have the same roots.

Urdu is ``bastardized`` hindi, where the Sanskrit-derived Hindi language was bastardized (or islamicized, if you will) by language spoken by uncultured arabs of the desert.

It is Hindi grammar and vocabulary that has been ``Islamicized`` with Arabic and Persian words like raisins in a pudding, and written in the glorious script of the camel jockeys.

re:#214 by mannyd
Almost any major university in India has a Dept teaching sanskrit. I know that sanskrit is taught in Delhi University. One of my cousins is married to a lecturer in dept of sanskrti in DU.
Also, this venerable man has fought all his life to preserve and propagate sanskrit and his efforts are worth applauding.
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/index.php/Magazine/story/75/
Sridhar

re:#213 by rahul_capri
Very true.
I am not undermining other languages. Tamil, for eg, is very ancient, some say older than Sanskrit and much of older literature (in the form of scrolls on palm leaves etc) is either lost or lies unclaimed in various places in the south.
Sankrit in the old times had same status as English as today. It was the language for higher studies. The buddhist university of Nalanda and Taxila were actually postgraduate universities and sanskrit was the medium.
Sridhar

#236 AIT being valid or not had little effect on rest of the argument from this prof, so tune down your antennas.

The most important roots of languages are observed in ``terms of endearments``, that is where passionate expression is observed, and not in some affected ghalib poetry. Now, consider the most important of these in urdu. bh&nch@d...etc, clearly understood from peshawar to patna and multan to mughalsarai. all these are sanskrit roots. therefore urdu or hindustani is a very indian language.

Re: # 230 jang
``How did Hindi-Urdu develop, and why does it have two names? Let`s look at the linguistic condition of India about one thousand years ago. The Indo-Aryan language family, brought to South Asia by the Aryans in prehistoric times, had become firmly established in a belt running from the Persian Caucasus in the West to the Bay of Bengal in the East.``

The aryan invasion theory is just sheer nonsense. There is no reference of any foreign motherland for aryans other than India in the vast literature of vedas, upanishads and puranas. Arya as used in our texts is not a racial term - it is just a term to address a culturerd person. There is no proof of any Aryan Invasion.The vedic culture is indigenous.

dhimmi-dost-mitter asked:
This is off-topic but since you seem to be knowledgeable, may be you can confirm if this is true. I read somewhere that one of the key differences between Jainism and Buddhism is the concept of soul. It seems that Buddhism does not accept the concept of soul; in it a person`s accumulated attributes simply take on a new birth. These attributes change with the addition of births, but there is no constant soul. Is this true? I also read that Buddha and Mahavira probably knew each other and may have even considered each other as adversaries

You asked satyavadi - but let me answer:
a) First: there is no ``soul`` - there is atma. The two are very different.
b) There is such thing as a ``God`` (as popularly known) in any of the
Dharmic traditions (i.e vaidika,jaina, bouddha, shaiva, vaishnanva etc)
c) Culturally all the dharmik tradiions are very similiar. Buddha was not some
great social-reformer etc etc. The Jaina and Bouddha traditions do not believe
in a `creative force` (if it may be called). The differences between the bouddha, jaina,
vaidika are all related to the nature of the atma. In vaidika tradition - there is
supposed to be a paramatma and a jivatma. The Advaita tradition of Shankar is
sometimes referred to as a `Closet-Buddhists` by other vaidika traditions.
The difference between all dharmika traditions are related to the `nature of atma`
- so that difference is not just between bouddha and jaina sources.
Both Bouddha and Jaina are considered as `nastika` (misnomer is aethistic - but
that is wrong - because a ``God`` is not required for any of the dharmic perspective)
d) Mahavira is only the 24th thirthankara - so was not the `founder` of jaina views.
Also, Buddha`s date is not correctly known. There is a large disparity by a couple
of hundred years atleast. So the chances of Mahavira and Gautama having known
each other is minimal to non-existent.

Hindi-Urdu

If what the various posters are having me believe that Hindi and Urdu have the same roots, then I think that these days Indians are not speaking Hindi, but what will be termed street language by Urdu appreciating people. Some people have coined a word ‘Hindustani’ for the new dialect being made popular by new movies.

An Indian friend of our family told us that she can speak Hindi and Urdu, but when she did, I thought it is better for her to speak English, because her Hindi was a lot streetish for me. I would never want my near and dear ones to speak Urdu in that form.

Re: # 198

dost:

even though the songs were written post-partition the writers were the product of pre-partition phase. isn`t?

unlike hindvi, i too think that general decline in movie lyrics is not related to the stagnation of urdu in india. as stated by you it is hard to find any indeevar or gulsan bawra nowadays.

i think now people are more interested in tech. and science than art and poetry. even among the writers we have well-known people who write in english than in hindi/urdu.

people like to mimic fitty cents than read about galib/sahir.

Re: # 208

rsridhar:

i always thought that tamil was different than sanskrit, even older. maybe it had some sanskrit loanwords. what do you think?

Shaista. Firstly, I blame these cultural distortions on the
great Mughal emperor Jahangir. He was the first person who allowed
British to start trading from India., secondly JL Baird, Marconi and earlier techies
that got the world little closer through their communication innovations of radio,
television, etc, Thirdly DARPA, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison and other
IT technies are responsible for these ongoing cultural distortions.

In order to remain a true blooded Pakistani, You must immediately switch off
your Television, turn off radio and throw your computer out the window.

here is what taj afroz, a foreign languages professor at North Carolina State U says

http://sasw.chass.ncsu.edu/fl/faculty/taj/hindi/abturdu.htm

``Vocabulary is likewise not characteristic of a language. Words are readily borrowed between languages like dry leaves blown about in the wind. No language can claim a pure, fixed and unchanging vocabulary. Indeed, it is often impossible to express oneself in English without using words borrowed from French, Latin, or even Hindi.

Thus it is only grammatical structure that can be said to characterize a language. No matter which writing system is used, no matter which vocabulary words are used, a language`s grammar will follow regular and characteristic rules. These rules, which govern verb conjugation, noun declension, plural formation, syntax, etc., are largely consistent within a language but differ between languages. Thus a comparative study of these rules allows us to distinguish one language from another.

Therefore Hindi and Urdu, which share a common, identical grammatical structure, must be considered a single language: Hindi-Urdu.

How did Hindi-Urdu develop, and why does it have two names? Let`s look at the linguistic condition of India about one thousand years ago. The Indo-Aryan language family, brought to South Asia by the Aryans in prehistoric times, had become firmly established in a belt running from the Persian Caucasus in the West to the Bay of Bengal in the East. The descendent languages of Sanskrit, including several dialects of early Hindi, Medieval Panjabi, Gujarati, Marathi, and Bengali, as well as their cousin tongue Persian were emerging in their respective regions. The Indian languages had adopted the ancient Sanskrit writing system, Devanagari, in various forms, while Persian had borrowed the Arabic writing system from its neighbors to the West. Hindi, in various dialects including Khariboli, Braj Bhasha and Awadhi, was spoken throughout North Central India.``

Re: # 223

``Urdu is a language which evolved primarily from Persian as it was the language of the moguls and was developed by the Moguls to reach a common ground with their Hindi/Sanskrit speaking subjects. So the script and grammatical rules remain persian to this day and ``hunuz dilli dur ast...``

shiasta,

why don`t you take another long siesta rather than talk nonsense.

isn`t the article enough to prove your stupidity?

satyavadi:

This is off-topic but since you seem to be knowledgeable, may be you can confirm if this is true. I read somewhere that one of the key differences between Jainism and Buddhism is the concept of soul. It seems that Buddhism does not accept the concept of soul; in it a person`s accumulated attributes simply take on a new birth. These attributes change with the addition of births, but there is no constant soul. Is this true? I also read that Buddha and Mahavira probably knew each other and may have even considered each other as adversaries.

Mannyd,

``Do you think, 130 million Indian Muslims have already been deprived of their religion, identity and Hinduized beyond repair? AFter all they are engulfed by the Hindu sleeze 24/7 unlike Pakistanus``

It is my understanding that the great majority of Indian Muslims infact have staunchly resisted ``Hindunisation`` as they say... perhaps that is how a minority acts... by sticking more so to one`s traditions. So if that is indeed the stated purpose of Pakistan according to Pakistanis... then might as well wrap up.

Shaista: I`ll admit I am not as informed as you are about Urdu/ Hindi ets, but my questions are not inspired by `I love my India` or any ill will to convert you back to Hinduism. I appreciate your effort to `put my record straighht`. Never mind the `sounding very pretty` part.

My mother tounge is Punjabi and I have considered Hindi/Urdu to have the same grammar, syntax, base vocabulary but Persian/ sanskrit words as supplements. What is your mother tounge? Urdu, Persian, Sindhi or Punjabi or are you from the Hazaara divison? I would appreciate a little more expounding of the following statements from you or other experts from Pakistan.

1. ` And the Urdu grammer is not closer to Hindi, it is the Hindi grammer that is closer to urdu..`

What is the difference? Where does the Persian grammar fit in this picture? Are all the three grammars close to each other?

2. Urdu was developed by your ancesstors, the Moguls, to talk to us their subjects, who spoke Sanskrit at that time.
``I meant to write Sanskrit and wrote Hindi/Sanskrit... There was no Hindi at the time.``

What was the timeline for this? A Pakistani contemporary of Babur wrote the following of this great Mogal, your ancesstor.

``Paap di Janj lai Kabulo aaya, jori mange daan we Lalo` and
`Aiti maar pai Kurlana, Tai ku dard na aaya`

It sounds closer to today`s Punjabi than to Sanskrit.

3. `I may as well mention that this is an exclusive reply to #224... I don`t expect anyone else to raise such mis-informed points..`

Thanks for granting me the exclusive honor of reply but I assure you most Indians are as mis-informed about Pakistan as I am if not even more. Burpinder is an exception to the rule, but he already thinks you are a fool. There is no point in making him any smarter.

Thanx for the sentiment.. But Whoopsie... One small mistake, I admit... I meant to write Sanskrit and wrote Hindi/Sanskrit... There was no Hindi at the time... Despite my efforts to stay focussed on the initial point I have to answer this one... Hindi, my dear chap is not that old a language if it is one that is... With its script borrowed from sanskrit, it is a flavor of Urdu which u guyz speak with a stronger amalgamation of Sanskrit and in your ``I love my India`` spirit, call Hindi... And the Urdu grammer is not closer to Hindi, it is the Hindi grammer that is closer to urdu... And as I don`t sound very pretty to myself putting your record straight, I may as well mention that this is an exclusive reply to #224... I don`t expect anyone else to raise such mis-informed points... : )... But thanx again for listening and responding... : )

Shaista ji:

Sorry but you are in a losing battle, not with Indians but with winds of change. The only thing that is constant is change.

However if it makes you feel good, go ahead and blame Burpinder SIngh. He said the author of this piece is a fool and an agenda wala. I do not agree with this half drunk half wit. Ithibk your concerns are valid and need to be raised.
``And not to be discussed by fools and agendawalas. Like the author`` in #221.

Do you think, 130 million Indian Muslims have already been deprived of their religion, identity and Hinduized beyond repair? AFter all they are engulfed by the Hindu sleeze 24/7 unlike Pakistanus. WOuld another Pakistan save them from their ill fated future?

Is it ok if I said the following very very ahista, because it is the real truth?
``Culture is a changing/ evolving phenomenon``
Whether it is organic or natural depends on a subjective point of view. One man`s organic growth is another man`s cancer.

Does Urdu have the same grammar as Persian but not as Hindi? That is news to me, but go ahead and do whatever it takes to save Urdu. Afterall that is why Pakistan was created , waa it not?

Hey guyz.... Now that the debate has turned to Shahrukh`s sexual orientation and the culture `shock` seems to have blown over, thanx for the great response and the heated comments from some quarters asking me to calm down... : ) But my dear quick to pounce on any written piece that dares put Pakistan and India in the same sentence readers, most of you are simply missing the point... The point is not the presence of a namaste or that there is anything wrong with the greeting, the point is the absence of the Assalam-o-Alaikum or to put it in simpler words the point is not India, the point is Pakistan... India is only an object that appears in the discussion, not the subject... Now that I have relieved you of your sworn duty to defend your country in the most absurd of ways, you can relax and take off the tri-colored sun shades that you wear, apparently on your minds... This is not a war cry screaming that big bad India is holding a gun to our heads and invading us, it is a realization that we ourselves are mindlessly and needlessly going into a tail spin while there is no lack of talent in Pakistan... It is an expression of the boredom and alienation most Pakistanis feel, watching TV these days and a yearning for the days that the heroines of Pakistani dramas really looked like girls walking down the street instead of porcelien dolls... There is simply no point in looking at the Indians on some channels and looking at Pakistanis looking like Indians on the others...

There are some things that I would like to mention here that have come up during the discussion (relevant or irrelevant).

1) For those whose knowledge of Pakistan begins and ends with Mukhtaran Mai and wanted to demonstrate the same by mentioning her, please relegate her to Page # 27776643 of the ``World History of Rape Cases``, it is a debate absolutely different and out of the scope of this article.

2) Another demonstration of having read an article or two on culture is the cliche ``Culture is a changing/ evolving phenomenon``. Please don`t mention this sentence again. If anyone were to write the bibliography of all that has been written on culture, he would have to put this sentence down till the end of time and beyond... Nobody is questioning the validity of the statement, but there should be substance and thought in that change. In the words of dost mitar ``I am not for a static/stagnant culture. But the growth should be organic and natural``.

3)Urdu is a language which evolved primarily from Persian as it was the language of the moguls and was developed by the Moguls to reach a common ground with their Hindi/Sanskrit speaking subjects. So the script and grammatical rules remain persian to this day and ``hunuz dilli dur ast...`` It is no surprise either that the greatest poets and language experts of the language Ghalib, Mir, Momin, Dagh, Iqbal and later Faiz Ahmed Faiz and Ahmad Faraz were/are Muslims who were also language experts of Persian and this language became the official language of Pakistan. I like the language, it is the language of my ancestors and I just don`t want us to be gathering urdu scripts for museums in 50 years time. Hence the article...

PS: For those of you who have never listened to Pakistani pop, my sincere advice would be to listen to Ali Azmat and you would realize what a lullaby Abhijeet Sawant sounds like... But u weren`t listening to Abhijeet Sawant in the face of Aadat or Bheegi Yaadein by Jal/Atif Aslam were you???

Burpinder #221: ``The point is: art is sacred. And not to be discussed by fools and agendawalas.``

Who said that? Guru Ram Dass JI?

The point is anything can be discussed by anyone even if pointy headed pontiffs of sacred art like you prohibit it. Yes even fools, just like you are mouthing off here. If you are not happy with that, report me to the SGPC.

``I suppose if I told you I love the Fuzon track where they intersperse a jazz piano solo into a Hindustani classical motif, would that make any sense to you?``

If you love something, go ahead love it, why doesa it even bother you what makes sense to me? Sounds very imbecillic to enquire if it makes sense to me. I do not base my likes or dislikes dictated by what some half drunk Sirdar would think of them. I suspected you were a fool, you just confirmed it.

``Or would you just be thrilled at the fact that Pakistani bands now have an Indian audience-wah wah- which would not have been possible in 1985, blahblah...``

I have no idea what you are barfing at burpie boy. I think you are having a difficult time expressing yourself without the icons. Try again using different words.

``Preya Ghoshal. (Snort wala icon) ``

The icon again. You can not do without them. So you think my IQ would have gone up by a few points if I had said Shreya instead of Preya? Is IQ a function of some TV show trivia game? You are really not very bright Burpinder Singh, are you?. Do you still wear a turban?

To finalize, Art is not sacred, I`ll speak my mind freely on anything I want to regardless of what you say and if you want to trade insults over my beliefs, I`ll be glad to beat the crease off your pants.)

By the way, was it you who was arrested in New Delhi, making love to the dancing Waheeda Rehman on the screen or was it one of your elders? Do not tell me Waheeda is sacred too, so spake Guru Arjun Dev.

mannyduh:
``SN #171:`Its Shreya Ghoshal`

Thanks SN. So it is! My mistake in calling her Preya. However the point is that Preya, Shreya or Jayeya, or whatever her name is won some very tough and brutal public contests in a field.....``

Wow. Smooth (thumbs up wala icon).

I suppose if I told you I love the Fuzon track where they intersperse a jazz piano solo into a Hindustani classical motif, would that make any sense to you? Or would you just be thrilled at the fact that Pakistani bands now have an Indian audience-wah wah- which would not have been possible in 1985, blahblah...

The point is: art is sacred. And not to be discussed by fools and agendawalas. Like the author. Or those morons who start their interacts with; I personally do not watch Hindi movies, but I think they represent a cultural revolution...(the usual bs here)

Preya Ghoshal. (Snort wala icon)

Re: # 171

Thank God, at least someone got my point.

rahul,

Buddha and Mahavir were contemporaries and both belonged to the northern Bihar-Nepal border region. We are talking about a area not more than 6 yo 8 districts of modern day Bihar. If Mahavir spoke Prakrit and Buddha spoke Pali, I don`t think those two languages would be that different. Same small region, same timeframe - how could the languages be very different?

Also, as to your other point about Jainism being closer to Hinduism compared to Buddhism, I don`t think that is necessarily true. In fact at their fundamental core Buddhism and Jainism are closer to each other than Hinduism. Both are agnostic or even atheistic w.r.t God and both put complete emphasis on Karma and that there is no God to intervene on behalf of His devotees. This is different from Hinduism that has both the Karma-effect and God. Where Jainism and Buddhism differ, is in the primacy given to asectism (tapasya) - Buddha cleared preferred moderate ascetism as opposed to the extreme ascetism of the Jains. Buddha himself tinkered with some form of Jainism (or the Shramana path) before branching out on his own. Jains are the inheritors of the original Shraman dharma and Jainism was in existence for atleast 300 years (from about 8th century B.C. from the time of the historical Parshwanath - the 23 rd Tirthankara) before Mahavir. In fact I recently met a Sri Lankan Buddhist woman that claimed that Mahivar was infact one of the three original teachers of Buddha -don`t know how true this is..

Jains and Hindus are different in their core religious principes (which most Jains don`t understand just like most Hindus :)) but are the same people. The fact many religious rituals are common and that social practices are the same hides the differences in the core beliefs. In every other thing, the difference between Jains and Hindus of similar caste/standing is similar to that between Hindu castes at the same level of the hierarchy i.e. there is no difference.

Re: # 217
Shahrukh may also be glad to know that.:-)

# sridhar, 211,
I am glad to know that shahrukh is not gay.

satyavadi and mannyd, thanks for the info. I went through some links myself and it appears that Prakrit does have many similarities with Sanskrit and prakrits evolved into modern Indic languages. Pali is considered as a prakrit by some scholars but not by all. Also, Pali is a little bit further away from Sanskrit because it has its own written grammar.
I do not wish to involve religion into linguistics but it is intriguing that the distance between Buddhism and Hinduism seems to be identical to that between Pali and Sanskrit,which is more, and that between Jainism and Hinduism seems to be the same as between Prakrit and Sanskrit,which is less.
Maybe this is coincidental.

rahul_capri, rsridhar, mannyd..

[rsridhar,I have read that sanskrit in Buddhism and Jainism is an exception rather than the rule. ]

This is true of the early Buddhist and Jain writings which were (mostly) in Pali and Prakrit respectively..Mahavir and Buddha both gave their discourses in the most widely spoken languages of their time (they were contemperoneous) i.e Prakrit and Pali. However later Jain and Buddhist works (starting in 2nd -1st century BC) were all written in Sanskrit. Don`t know what the reason for this shift was, but as it stands today, a huge majority of Jain and Buddhist scriptures are in Sanskrit and not Pali or Prakrit. One of the factors could be, that there were several Prakrit dialects (Prakrit means natural v/s Sanskrit -culutred/refined) and Sanskrit was the common thread among them..

All North Indian languages including Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Marathi, Assamese, Sindhi, Hindi etc are directly descended from one of the several Prakrits. Prakrit and Pali are also very close (Some Buddhist and Jain mantras are almost identical - Buddhism is infact an offshoot of the pre-existing Shramana tradition (v/s Brahmana or mainstream Hinduism) which was carried forward by Jainism -which was not founded by Vardhaman Mahavir).

Also, if you actually read Prakrit mantras and other texts, you can clearly see that the words used are just modified versions of their Sanskrit equivalents. It`s obvious that Prakrit is descended from Sanskrit and all North Indian languages are descended from Prakrit(s).

Rahul #207: I would think Pali and Prakrit were colloquial versions of the spoken languages, based on Sanskrit not an entirely different set like Chinese or Mongolian. Religion should not be involved in linguistics, otherwise it raises the dander of the Mullah crowd unnecassarily.

rsridhar #212: `Which is why a country like Japan has a dept teaching sanskrit in close to 100 universities scattered around the country.`
Again did not know that.
Recently I saw a German movie, where two men get lost in Tokyo, while on a spiritual jouney to a monastery. The Chants they learn and use were full of Sanskrit words. How many universities in India teach Sanskrit? I think there would be none in Pakistan.

Re: # 212
rsridhar,I have read that sanskrit in Buddhism and Jainism is an exception rather than the rule.
I am not undermining Sanskrit here, just saying that there is a lot in our heritage that is recorded in other langauges as well and they have got a more raw deal than sanskrit.

re:#207 by rahul_capri
There is a general misconception that sanskrit is/was the language of the elite and brahmins. Most of the early canonical work in buddhism (by people like Ashwaghosha, Nagarjuna) were in sanskrit. Which is why a country like Japan has a dept teaching sanskrit in close to 100 universities scattered around the country.
Sridhar

re:#195 by amansandhu
Shah Rukh khan,when visiting New York (in early 90s; forgot exact year) was on ITV and one guy called in and complained ``yaar, tum party mein aatey hon aur ladkee udaa ley jaatey hon; hamey kuch nahin haath lagtha!``. Needless to say Shah Rukh was embarassed and changed the topic real fast, with some other colleagues (also on TV) looking amused.
Shah Rukh is not gay. I am told the guy is sh!t scared of his wife who pretty much manages all his finances etc.
Sridhar

Dharma #180: `Even tamil brahmins chant gayatri mantra in sanskrit. Sanskrit seems to be the only thread that is linking all the indian languages and everything that is culture and knowledge related from ancient india.`

Thanks for the info here and in #179.

re:180 by dharma
I appreciate your concern about sanskrit and its importance in propagating India`s culture. Most importantly, ancient spiritual texts (of hindus, buddhists) are all in sanskrit. An attempt is being made recently by GOI to get hold of these texts from temples, private owners and copy them and preserve them.
One person is doing a great job in preserving this ancient language.
www.samskrita-bharati.org
A fascinating article:
http://www.samskrita-bharati.org/news/gulfnews031201.html
sridhar

re:re:#139 by dharma
BTW, guess what is the Tamil word for Rakth (or Khoon as it is called in Urdu)? It is raththam. Both are from sanskrit root raktham.
Sridhar

With reference to Sanskrit revivalism, it is all well and good. But Sanskrit had always been the language of the elite, the Brahmins. And Brahmins had a monopoly over academia. The language of masses were Pali and Prakrit which was why Buddha and Mahavir chose them for the compilation of their teachings. From a Hindu point of view Sanskrit is more important but from a cultural point of view pali, prakrit and urdu are as much a part of our heritage as sanskrit.

203: Aman ji, would you blame the poor actresses? A person has to do what she has to do to stay alive.

Dharma #179: ````Even though Dravidian languages are based on a different model than Sanskrit there are thirty to seventy per cent Sanskrit words in south Indian languages like Telugu and Tamil, which is much higher percentage than north Indian languages like Hindi.``

That is very very surprising. I did not know that.

Talking to a Kerla friend recently, I learnt that Malyalam, Sinhalese and Kannada are closer to Sanskrit than Tamil. Sanskrit is easily seen in Thailand and Indonesian `Bhashas`. However the dumbing down of Indians by keeping Sanskrit out is considered a noble venture and a badge of honor by some. By the way I do not know either Sanskrit or Tamil as arranged by the great Maulana Azaad, our first ejukation minister.

rahul:

I am not denying the sad state of urdu in the land of its birth.

Another factor was that a large number of Taraqi-Pasand, mainly Urdu, poets descended on Bombay in late 1940s and 1950s. They were a highly talented bunch, spoke the language of the masses and the masses lapped up their socialistic messages in the idiom they understood. Maybe, Josh Malihabadi did not succeed commercially even when he was in India because he lacked this quality of speaking the language of the masses.

there was an article in the sunday mag of sydney morning herald that said that most actresses in pakistan were prostitutes or daughters of protitutes, is that really true.

#201: Sorry, a correction here. The movie was from 1976, known as the Golden period of Lollywood.
`Kadh le, Kadh le, Kadh le` was the height of Pakistani culture...LOL...

There was a brief period when Lahore produced movieslike `Maula Jatt` that were shown even in India, but by 1970s there was an implosion in Lollywood. To attract paying customers, `Totas` of same sex or hetro porn were spliced into sleezy movies just to make things even spicier. A WSJ woman journalist described such a Pushto movie being shown in Peshawar in revolting terms.

The following is a description of a product of Lahori culture that Shaista is so eager to protect:

`Sultan Rahi stars in the title role of Pindi Wal and he is supported by a powerhouse star cast including Neelo, Mustafa Qureshi, Bahar, with Parveen Boby, Anita and especially Chakori to provide the saucy pyrotechnics. The real find of the movie however is a fabulously sleazy tart who does a breathtaking number to Naheed Akhter`s sizzling Kadh le, Kadh le, Kadh le, jera paya wey (translated: take it out! take it out! take it out! what you have inserted!) We have yet to discover her name in years of trying but it won`t be long now that we have some knowledgeable contacts in the Royal Park region of Lahore. ***In fact it turns out that the Kadh Le song belongs to a film called Aaj Da Badmaash and it was later spliced into Pindi Wal to spice things up a bit!``

It is interesting to read Pakistanis complain about the sleezy Bollywood.

Re: # 198
dost-mittar, just to make a point, all the Urdu poets operating post partition were probably educated before.I dont think there is even one prominent Urdu poet born in India post partition.There are some who have written ghazals, but not in classical Urdu and they have been few and far between. Taking this out of films for a second, Urdu literary magazines can be counted on fingers. It is not that surprising on account of the fact that teaching of Urdu at the primary level has been stopped.
As for ghazal singers, Jagjit Singh mostly sings Nida Fazli who keeps it very simple.Pankaj Udhas is even more light weight. About a year back Pankaj brought out an album of Mir`s shairi. There were not many takers for it.
Urdu is a poetic language inherently and I wouldnt be surprised if because of lack of Urdu teaching poetic appreciation may have suffered.

re:#139 by dharma
The movie was spelled ``Rakht`` on the DVD that i saw in the store. Now, since when is blood pronounced as Rakht in Hindi/sanskrit? It is Rakt. There is no ``kh`` there. I thought Rakht meant something in urdu that i did not know.
Thanks for clarifying.
BTW, no need to bring in somebody`s caste here. I can converse in 4 languages and have more than a passing knowledge of sanskrit.
Sridhar

hindvi#181:

You revived a lot of old and beautiful memories.

``the decline in the quality of film lyrics was inevitable once partition happened and the teaching of urdu came to an end as also urdu words were slowly replaced by hindi ones in the spoken language of urban india i.e. hindustani. so as language and schooling was gradually sanskritised and made pure, a mirror image of what was happening across the border, the people who wrote the lyrics and more importantly those who understood them both dwindled.``

While Urdu is certainly on decline in India, especially among non-muslims, I think that this is probably a minor reason. If you notice, Urdu poetry in films came into its own mostly after partition in the 1950s and 1960s. The songs that you mention do not actually use hi-falutin Urdu and were easily uderstood. Even back in early 1970s, the dialogue and songs of Razia Sultan remained unpopular despite beautiful music and lyrics as they were in stylised urdu.

I think that the main explanation lies elsewhere, maybe the MTV generation does not care for either good lyrics or good music. In fact, I have seen some good songs in recent films -there was a nice bhajan-type song in Swades - but they never become popular. As Anil Biswas once said, the new generation only wants to look at the ornaments (orchestra, synthesisers, million percussions) rather than real beauty. Even Majrooh did not give any memorable songs in his later films as nobody cared for them. It is not just urdu, there are no good hindi songs either, such as Jyoti kalash chhalake, Aadha hai chandrma raat aadhi, Pankh hote tau urh jaati main, Aaj sajan mohe ang laga lo janam safal ho jaaye, ghayal hiraniya main ban ban doloon, murli bairan bhayee kanhiya teri murli bairan bhayee, laagi manua ke beech kataari, etc. Not only are there no more Sahir or Shakeel, there are also no Bharat Vyas or Indivar.

There are still good urdu poets in India and ghazal singers are using them in their ghazals. This shows another paradox, whereas good poetry is disappearing from films, ghazal singers are becoming quite popular outside the film media.

hindvi,soysauce: I think a lot of change is because of the advent of cable and video. Big screen cinema can be more visually appealing because of its size. So a lot of effort is put in cinematography, choreography and art direction . Public wont come in the theatres if there is nothing visually awesome about the movie.Extending that argument ,people who frequent theatres mostly fall in the category of those who prefer the visual part of it and hence have become the target market .All other things have taken a backseat.

Re: # 188

HP:

in old days, songs were very important. lyricist used to get an idea of the movie/situation and then take days/months to pen a song.

now lyricists take minutes/hours to dish out an item number.

there has been rumours that shahrukh is gay, karan`s mannerisms are like a gay, but i think they are just rumours. ppl say shahrukh has never had an affair with a co-star so he has to be gay!!!!!!!!!!!.
though i must say that shahrukh`s mentor in delhi when he was learning drama, an english man called barry john is definately gay. he has gone public with it.

#193

``sharukh khan and karan johar are an item (from gossip)``

So when Rani Mukharji Marries Karan, she will get eik ticket main doo mazzaa ( Heard it on the grapevine)

sharukh khan and karan johar are an item (from gossip)

Hindvi Sahib: Thanks for the post on the lyrics. I agree with you that quality has gone down but it could be just a generation gap thing. I still have a hard time appreciating DM sahib`s paeons to Sehgal but refuse to say it too vehemently.

#182 Soysauce: `I do like to listen to (some of) the songs, the dances are extremely painful to watch.`

Not all dances were that bad. Vijayanti Mala, Kuckoo, Helen were reasonably good, but it was just the female form that drove some fans bonkers. Burpi`s family would throw coins at the screen whenever Surayaia twirled around a bit. Burpie himself was arrested once because he was trying to make love to Waheeda Rehman on the screen.

#190

“HP Sahib, do you have ‘volume’ control on your TV?”

Yes! I do but have no control over the clicker…I hope you know that...

Shahzada ab mujh par hi ara chalao gay?

Re: # 188

HP Sahib, because in the earlier decades, Movies were the only source of entertainment in both India and Pakistan. My granddad used to take train to Lahore to see movie (a 6 hour ride from our village). Now there is so much other garbage available that movies don’t have the same value.

And Indian movies were rarely about ‘story’… they were all, if you will, “musicals”. Song, dance, and music was the painting, the storyline was just the canvas.

HP Sahib, do you have ‘volume’ control on your TV?

SN #171:`Its Shreya Ghoshal`

Thanks SN. So it is! My mistake in calling her Preya. However the point is that Preya, Shreya or Jayeya, or whatever her name is won some very tough and brutal public contests in a field where Raj Kumari and couple of other females were the only singers in 1930s. Money makes the world go round and the Indian females are willing to compete for it.

Shaista is pleading for censorship and raising the drawbridges because rhe Pakistani identity, culture and even religion is in danger. This protectionism worked fine as long as Pakistan could ban Indian movies. It will not work in the future because of `free` dish television and pirated videos. Protecting Lollywood has produced fat, lethargic and smug products, who can not compete in the free markets. AR Rehman will sell in Tokyo while Zaznan or Dudnan from Rawal pindi will not.

I sometimes relate Indians fascination with the movies, songs and music to American fascination with the music and movies. Both Indians and Americans love to talk about movies, songs and music. I have not found similar affliction with these branches of art in any other nationality.

Hindvi’s post #181 yet again proves my thinking. I prolly know all these songs but mostly have no idea about the movies they were from or the situational aspect of the songs. I sure don’t know the poets and music directors who contributed these songs. I watched old Indian movies on Video and mostly in the US, so I have very limited knowledge about the old Indian movies. Watching current movies is also dependent on several factors but except for “Hum aap kay hain Koon”(watched it at least 10 times), I have never been able to finish an Indian movie with any concentration barring a few exceptions, mostly circumstantial though.

My thinking is that most of old great song were poorly inserted in to the movies and had no relation with the situations or were forced into movies just on the strength of the quality of the song itself.

Indian movies are unbearably loud and the loudest actor is perhaps Amitabh. It seems to me that Indian audience and I would say Pakistani too love loud and annoying actors. While Amitabh speaks so loudly in the movies, I think Salman khan’s command of the language is pathetic. This guy can’t even speak a sentence right and he should only be allowed to work in the silent movies. (Imitating Sly Stallone perhaps?)

Can some Indian explain this me; why Indians love gay heroes? I mean you look at Shahrukh, Salman, Bachan Jr, Hrthik Roshan and a few more they look and act gay. Those who don’t appear gay, often mimic gay mannerism. What’s the deal with that?

Re: # 181

Hindvi Sahib… agar aap hamaray nazdeek hotay, tou ham aap ka Monh choom laytay. Aapnay tou dil khush kar diya.

To tell you the truth, I am so disappointed in the new generation of singers and musicians. That, in a way, is a testimony to the greatness of musicians and song writers of years gone by for setting the bar so high. I know that some here will disagree with me. Anyhow, here’s one for you:

Yeh mera Prem Patar PaRh kar
Kay tum narraz mat hona
Kay Tum meri Zindagee Ho,
Kay Tum meri Bandgee Ho.


# 130

Haidri Yaar, I am sorry I don’t know where Asad Amant Ali Khan lives these days, but I do like his work.

dost-mittar ji, bhabi ji is more common now than bharjai ji though you will still find some people say bharjai ji.
in indian punjab, people in the cities have replaced teth punjabi with hindi words, for example , my dadi use to say ` wat kina, mera chaga murke naal pijh gaya, and i would say the same as `garmi kine, mera kameez pasine naal gila ho giya. though, teth punjabi is alive in the villages.
manmohan singh, who once worked with yash chopra, has made some good punjabi films recently like `je aayan nu`, `asan nu maan vatana da` and `yaraan naal baharan`. this films have made good bussiness and may revive the punjabi film industry.

#183 perhaps its more like a language losing its court-patronage..the proles did not use it not understood it..only the ``elite`` were into it. so it died more naturally.

hindvi, i`m just pointing out things are just different, not necessarily worse.

Soysauce I agree with your point that part of the reason for the dumbing down of the lyrics is the change in social norms since the new generation hates using their brain and ned constant titilation and also much of the high and middle brow audience that used to patronise film theaters is gone.

i myself enjoy some of the better new numbers in Baazigar, DDLJ etc even some of the item numbers arent bad but they could have coexisted rather than completely replaced the deeper numbers had the tools and poetic expresions of hindustani survived. unfortunately the public doesnt even understand words commonly used a generation or two ago.

#181 hindvi
I`m not a fan of indian movies but by comparing old movies where songs would tell a story and the new movies where songs are an adjunct to the movie with no direct relationship to the plot line, one would conclude that the function of songs has shifted. Now catchy tunes and booty shaking (Michael Jackson be damned!) define a song. Lyrics don`t HAVE to mean anything. This is the story with tamil movies and I`d imagine it would apply to hindi movies as well. Lack of urdu writers or sanscritization are irrelevant.
If you understand this evolution, then you wouldn`t be complaining about the good old days.
I do like to listen to (some of) the songs, the dances are extremely painful to watch.

some memorable film songs in the golden era :

Shailendra`s (who was born in rawalpindi) Ye mera dewanapan hai ya jawani aapki from yahudi picturised on a young Dilip Kumar and suhana safar aur ye mausam haseen picturised a little later in Madhumati

his Aaj Phir jeene ki tamanna aaj phir marne ka iraada hai or Piya to se naina laage re , naina lage re and Kya se kya hogaya all from guide

his kisi ki muskurahaton pe ho nisaar

Shehriyaars Lyrics in Umrao Jaan especially Zindagi jabh bhi Teri Bazm mein Laati Hai Humey and In aankhon ki Masti ke

Shakeel Badayuni in mother india: pii ke ghar aaj pyaari dulhaniyaa chalii

his Nain Larjaen hain to manva ma kasak hoibe kari from ganga jamuna
and
Aaj Puranee Rahon Se koi mujhe aavaz na de for dilip

and apni azadi ko hum hargiz mita sakte nahin sar kata sakte hain lekin sar jhuka sakte nahin penned at Pt. Nehru`s request in 62.

and bhanwara bara nadaan hai from sahib bibi aur ghulam or beqaraar karke hume yun na jaeay

Or almost every song of Kamal Amrohi`s masterpiece on which 4 lyricists worked together, Pakeezah :

Kaif bhopali`s

aaj ham apni duaaon ka asar dekhenge
tiir-e-nazar dekhenge zakhm-e-jigar dekhenge...

and Thare rahiyo o banke yaar re


and Kaifi Azmis

chalte chalte yun hi koi mil gaya tha
yun hi koi mil gaya tha sare raah chalte chalte
vahin thamke reh gai hai
vanhi thamke reh gai hai meri raat Dhalte Dhalte

Kaifi also gave us Waqt ne kiya kya haseen sitam tum rahe na tum hum rahe na hum


Even an Item number from majrooh Sultanpuri had lyrics like:

Ay haseena Zulfon wali jaane-jahan
Dhoondte hain Qatil Aankhen kiska Nishaan

or Badan pe sitare lapetey hue ae jaane tamanna kidhar ja rahi ho

who can forget his jalte hain jiske liye teri aankhon ke diye in sujata

hum bekhudi mein tum ko pukaare chale gaye in Kaala Pani

Maana janaab ne pukaara nahin or Chura liya hai tumne jo dil ko or Ek Larki Bheegi Bhagi Si

actors from saigal to sharukh and aamir khan benefitted from Majrooh`s longivity since he continued to give great songs into the 80s and 90s in movies like qayamat se qayamat tak, jo jeeta woh sikandar and Kabhi haan kabhi naa

or that master lyricist Sahir ludhianvi who wrote in a single night:

Kabhi Kabhi mere dil mein khayal aata hai

Sahir was essentially a romantic both in the philosophical sense as well as in the poetic and this is reflected in his filmi shairi even though he never paid it as much attention as his serious poetry (many regard him as the greatest poet since Iqbal) and yet he was able to pen deep and meaningful lyrics :

Like Guru dutt walking through the brothels and singing ``Jinhe Naaz Hai Hind Par Woh Kahaan Hai`` in Pyaasa and in the same movie Jaane Woh Kaise Log The Jinke pyar ko pyar mila.

or the socialist spoof on iqbal - Chino arab hamara, hindustan hamara rehne ko ghar nahi hai sara jahan hamara.(though he himself admitted that the poet he found the most skilled was Iqbal ``bavajut nazariyate ikhtilaf`` he added). in the same movie (phir subah hogi) he wrote Voh subaah kabhi to ayegi jab qaid se qaidi chhootenge and aasman me khuda.

na to karavan ki talash hai na to humsafar ki talash hai
and Aurat ne Janam Diya Mardon ko Mardon ne Use Bazaar Diya
also Khali Dabba Khali Botal Le Le Mere Yaar Khali se Mat Nafrat Karna, Khali Sab Sansar
and Allah Tero Naam Ishwar Tero Naam

so many gems mixing poetry with philosophy

melancholic -Jaaein to jaein kahan samjhe kaun yahan,


, happy go lucky -mein zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya, Har fikr ko dhuein mein urata chala gaya

the peppy patriotic: yeh desh hai veer jawano ka abelon ka mastano ka is desh ka yaaro kya kehna

light romantic- Mere dil mein aaj kya hai tu kahe to mein batadoon

Kehdoon tumhe ya chup rahoon dil me merey aaj kya hai

ye hava ye raat ye chandni phir kahan

Aye meri zohra jabeen tujhe maloom nahi tu abhi tak hai haseen aur mein jawan tujh pe qurbaan meri jaan meri jaan
ye shokhiyan ye baghpan jo tujh mein hain kahin nahi, dilon mein jeetne ka fun jo tujh mein hae kahin nahi, mein teri, mein teri aankhon mein paa gaya do jahan


Even here he would get philosophical as in mein pal do pal ka shair hoon pal do pal meri kahani hai, pal do pal hasti meri pal do pal meri kahani hai kal aur ayenge naghmon ki khilti kaliyan chunne waale mujh se behtar kehne waale tum se behtar sunne vale

and in chalo ek baar phir se ajnabi ban jaaye hum dono

his social commentary especially on the plight of women and the poor was always paramount: Aurat ne janam diya mardon ko, mardon ne use bazaar diya
and kahiye jee kya kharidenge yahan har cheez bikti hai


I have failed to mention so many smaller ones like Raja mehdi ali khan who wrote jhumka gira rey bareilly ke bazaar mein or rajendra Krishan who wrote Yeh zindagi usi ki hai jo kisi ka ho gaya


Even today we have sampooran singh ``gulzar`` not in the same league as the above but capable of penning a aye mere pyare watan in kabuliwala, Yaara sili sili biraha ki raat in Lekin, Mera kuch samaan, and a tujh se naraz nahi zindagi bas hairan hu mein in masoom. most importantly he popularised ghalib via jagjit singh in a serial of the same name.

their was also many a pakistani like Qateel Shifai who ghost wrote bolywood songs or sometimes took credit as in Mahesh Bhatts Phir teri Kahani Yaad Aee and like ghulam ali in awargi and nikaah. Much more often songs and ghazals would be plagarised without acknowledgement. and the song that is most often stolen was written By a young Phd student studying at Heidelburg i.e. Iqbal`s Saare Jahan se acha hindustan Hamara, a song that Rajiv Gandhi wanted to make India`s national anthem but was disuaded from.

the decline in the quality of film lyrics was inevitable once partition happened and the teaching of urdu came to an end as also urdu words were slowly replaced by hindi ones in the spoken language of urban india i.e. hindustani. so as language and schooling was gradually sanskritised and made pure, a mirror image of what was happening across the border, the people who wrote the lyrics and more importantly those who understood them both dwindled.

Re: # 152 mannyd

``By the way do you know Tamil? ``
manny bhai,
No I dont excpet for all the sanskrit words that are in tamil. Even tamil brahmins chant gayatri mantra in sanskrit. Sanskrit seems to be the only thread that is linking all the indian languages and everything that is culture and knowledge related from ancient india. If we want to keep the knowledge aquired by our ancestors over generations we need to keep that language alive. There are certain fields like meditation, yoga etc which have no contemporary practitioners that equalled the effort put in by our ancestors and knowledge gained by them. In the olden days rishis and sages used to routinely take off years to medidate in solitude and try understand spiritual side. We can not just throw away their insights aquired over thosuands of years and start all over again. I believe that english is good for modern science and sanskrit for spiritual science.

Re: # 140 kalachakra

It is not as black and white as you think. You know very well that the Aryan Invasion theory is totally debunked and none of the indologists believe it anymore atleast in academic sense. And the languages are not as striaghtforward either. Even if they started at same place, they developed independently with the link language being Sanskrit. All the literate in old India communicated through Sanskrit. Lot of good sanskrit literature came from south too like ``Amukta Malyada`` by the king Krishna Deva Raya. If you examine the vowel, consonants and the sounds in all the dravidain and aryan languages of india they share a lot with each other than any other group outside of india.

frawley says:
``Even though Dravidian languages are based on a different model than Sanskrit there are thirty to seventy per cent Sanskrit words in south Indian languages like Telugu and Tamil, which is much higher percentage than north Indian languages like Hindi. In addition both north and south Indian languages have a similar construction and phraseology that links them close together, which European languages often do not share. This has caused some linguists even to propose that Hindi was a Dravidian language. In short, the language compart- ments, like the racial ones, are not as rigid as has been thought.

In fact if we examine the oldest Vedic Sanskrit, we find similar sounds to Dravidian languages (the cerebral letters, for example), which are not present in other Indo-European tongues. This shows either that there were already Drvidians in the same region as the Vedic people, and part of the same culture with them, or that Dravidian languages could also have been early off-shoots of Sanskrit, which was the theory of the modern rishi, Sri Aurobindo. In addition the traditional inventor of the Dravidian languages was said to have been none other than Agastya, one of the most important rishis of the Rig Veda, the oldest Sanskrit text.``

We are different and we are similar. If a superior media is in place in India, the answer to that is definitely in trying to make one here. I think it is not fair with media to confine it with some moral boundries. Arts are another form of freedom.

If a more exposed dance wins over a modest one, that`s the way things work. It is not because people have lost morals. It is because you are sticking to an idealogy which sucks here. Accept it.

Loss of religion. huh. I wonder when this menace will leave us.

Re: # 167

This is a good post.

As I have always said, Pakistan, due to its geographical location, will share history and culture with all its neighbors. As it is, Pakistani history and culture is a mélange of endemic histories and sub-cultures who have both prolifically borrowed from and miserly lent to Indian, Iranian, Afghan, Arab and Turkestani history and cultures.

I think what the writer is trying to criticize is blatant copying of Indian rituals in Pakistani media and fashion forwardness. No body will mind if Pakistani media copies Indian / Hindu sanskaars (Aqdaar in Urdu, values in English) like respecting the elders and caring for them in their old age, treating the children with affection, keeping the house clean, etc. For example, if a young newly married couple in India is shown to bow down and touch feet of the parents, the sanakaar behind it can be copied in principle and newly married couple in Pakistan can be shown as bowing their heads so that the parents could reach out and pat the heads or shoulders.

Unfortunately, in Pakistani media, there is a monopoly of few overly liberals for whom showing girls in sleeveless shirts and high genes is all that one can learn from Western and Indian media.

Like tahmed has said in one of his posts, there is more to it than just copying. Pakistani media needs to learn from the creativity and originality that goes into western and in some Indian plays and movies.

Re: # 167

This is a good post.

As I have always said, Pakistan, due to its geographical location, will share history and culture with all its neighbors. As it is, Pakistani history and culture is a mélange of endemic histories and sub-cultures who have both prolifically borrowed from and miserly lent to Indian, Iranian, Afghan, Arab and Turkestani history and cultures.

I think what the writer is trying to criticize is blatant copying of Indian rituals in Pakistani media and fashion forwardness. No body will mind if Pakistani media copies Indian / Hindu sanskaars (Aqdaar in Urdu, values in English) like respecting the elders and caring for them in their old age, treating the children with affection, keeping the house clean, etc. For example, if a young newly married couple in India is shown to bow down and touch feet of the parents, the sanakaar behind it can be copied in principle and newly married couple in Pakistan can be shown as bowing their heads so that the parents could reach out and pat the heads or shoulders.

Unfortunately, in Pakistani media, there is a monopoly of few overly liberals for whom showing girls in sleeveless shirts and high genes is all that one can learn from Western and Indian media.

Like tahmed has said in one of his posts, there is more to it than just copying. Pakistani media needs to learn from the creativity and originality that goes into western and in some Indian plays and movies.

>>>>>What I am really scared of, now, is a little child singing “Aati kya khandala” and not even being able to identify it as foreign.

You are scared because you know little.

“Aati kya khandala” is not that foriegn.

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Re: # 167 i don`t think there is a single Pakistani culture either... the foremost defining charactersitic of a culture in the literal sense is perhaps `shared regional bounds` followed by a bunch of other factors...in that sense, each province of Pakistan has it`s own sub-culture. When someone refers to the Pakistani or Indian culture generally, in my opinion, it entails the dominant bits of all the sub-cultures prevailing in the two countries.

Dost, burpinder et al

---

Its Shreya Ghoshal

Burpee #168:` Bloody idiots, get a life or at the least some IQ points before coming here and exposing your ignorance.``
Agree with you Burpinder, 100 % there. Where did you get your IQ points now? Preya was declared a winner in several open contests, where the judges were not `Mannyduh and friends` but Ustad Vilayat khan, Usha Mangeshkar, Girija Devi, Anil Biswas, Kalyan Ji Anand Ji, Pandit Ram Swarup and many many more.

By the way there is no minimum requirement for IQ points, so it is Ok with me for drunks like you to come and barf as much as you want. Moron.

For the benefit of everyone who`s wondering why ``Aati Kya Khandala`` should be considered as a sign of a culture gvone awry (my previous post), ``aati kya`` was the way you propositioned a hooker in Kamathipura (Mumbai`s red light district) before Aamir Khan made it acceptable to be used in mixed company....

It`s always amusing to see how it`s always the uncultured idiots who jump up and down and get their panties in a twist in all these ``culture`` arguments. Some illiterate bunch down there (mannyduh and friends) are discussing ``Preya`` Ghoshal`s singing skills and how much she is like Lata Mangeshkar (shudder). And not that I could finish this piece but it seemed to me the author was claiming that singing Aatu Kya Khandala is a sure sign of a culture gone awry (it probably is, but for other reasons). Bloody idiots, get a life or at the least some IQ points before coming here and exposing your ignorance.

First you have to define ``culture`` and then worry about the ``cloning`` taking place..

I don`t agree that there is a single ``Indian`` culture as opposed to a single ``Pakistani`` culture..

If we define ``culture`` represents food-habits/popular music/movies/TV serials/dresses/language, then there is no single ``Indian`` culture..

People who are ``geographically`` closer have more similarities in culture than people who are farther away.. For example, As a Tamil, I am culturally closer to other people from the south of India than a Punjabi.. You guys (Punjabis/Sindhis/etc..) (both Pakistani and Indian) have more in common than what I have with you.. A person from Manipur would feel the same way.. Due to the successful propagation of Hindi/Urdu/Bollywood a ``facade`` of uniform culture has been created.. But if you peel the surface you`d find the enormous diversities..

There is no point in worrying about ``losing`` your culture.. If you have a ``free market`` for ``cultures``, the ``better marketed`` and ``convenient`` culture would survive and others would die out..

Re: # 165

Excuse me RF786 Sahib. Bakistan is no India. We are Arabs and Iranis. Our culture is closely influenced by Arabs and not by dirty Hindus. Our cuisine, from Tandoori Rooti (Pita bread) to Aalo Keema (Batatas fil Lehm fil Mirch Misala) is all Arab. Our dancing with swords is fully Arab. We may speak different language, but we are 100% Arabs. We like to shove our heads up camel’s ass just like they do. We treat our women like crap (once in a while we gang rape them) just like they do. We believe that Jews are evil, just like they do. We watch Hindi movies, just like they do. We are Mumlakut Islamiyah al Arabiya al Bakistaniya al Jamhoriya.

What culture? You express your disgust and disappointment with current fad of copying Indian culture, yet ignore our historical roots. Pakistan did not drift from Arabia into existence, it emrged from a united India as a sovereign state.

I find this article to be another rehash of the typical right wing mindsets which would like to brainwash all Pakistanis in believing we arrived froma a different planet.

#163 sorry indeed i missed that line. even on popular culture side, i differ with you. even on pop-culture side, dandia is a wide-spread hit (along with pangra), i thought the songs like ``kajra re`` from movie bunty aur bubbly or ``Ei ri re eiri`` were very melodious and musical. in addition, now we think of songs like ``kabhi aar kabhi paar, laga teere nazar`` or ``pyar kiya to darna kya`` as ``good`` songs..the elders of those days were horrified with the crassness of these songs then...madhubala heving her bosom on screen while sighing was frowned on by traditionalist. and then there were plenty of lyrics like ``mere dil ki ghadi kare tik-tik-tik ..as frivoulous as ``eik-do-teen``.

i submit that the sher-o-shairi of old days did not have enough strength that is collapsed due to its own mold.

Jang:

You missed the last sentence of my post:

``I would repeat that this is true only of pop culture. I am quite enthusiastic abut the classical music and dance scene in India.``

Indian culture...Hindu culture...Pakistani Culture...Islamic culture...
media culture...
would someone draw the lines?
Truth of the matter is, the `culture`, or lack of it thereof, promoted by the Indian media, is not the Indian culture itself in the true sense of the word. so what we `borrow` from the Indian media is not the Indian culture per se, the real Indian culture is actually a part-and-parcel of the Pakistani culture, going by the history.
... and the question remains, does media influence the culture or portray it?

Re: # 153

Jhumri Talayya is a real town. The railway station of this town is called Koderma. Talayya, if you will make some effort, will so obviously mean a pond but here it is about a small dam. Once upon a time when Mica (an ore used to make insulators) was in good demand, this small town had many millionaires. Jhumari Talayya had and still has the best quality mica mines in the world.


How do I know? I once passed through this town in 1970s.

dost i know you live in kanukistan among punjus with names like bunty and bubbli ;-)

but excuse me, indian culture in india is absolutely alive and kicking inspite of bollywood. as far as i can see every middle-class indian kid who can afford 2 meals is involved in some activity related to culture.. bharat natyam and kathak classes are overflowing, music instruction is far more popular and even boys now learn to dance! colleges have ``traditional days``. due to new regional tv languages have seen a revival of sorts. in your younger days dancing (and maybe singing) was prolly considered kothewala stuff and youngsters from ``good`` families were discouraged from engaging in such vulgar arts.

i hope pakis are also teaching their kids arabic or tajik dances and music ;-)

Post 158 is addressed to Zahra`s post 143.

``Do you appreciate or admire that Pakistan has retained Indian culture better than India?``

Generally, yes, as far as popular culture is concerned (classical culture is something else!).

The reason for this is partly a nostalgia on my part. I have seen only a little bit of Pakistani television, but when I saw it, I could relate more to the culture depicted there than on the Indian remixes and serials. For example, I was watching a drama in which a feudal was calling his brother`s wife ``barjai``, the same word that I use but you wont hear it in Indian Punjabi programs. I also see that the concept of sharm-o-haiyya is still respected in Pakistani programs, and I am not here referring to hijab. There is also some adabi (literary) element in those programs, which seems to be disappearing from India. Our best film lyricist today is Javed Akhtar, a good script writer but a mediocre poet, in my opinion. His father, Jaan Nissar Akhtar, was a much better poet and he was only a second-rung lyricist at a time when Sahir Ludhyanvi, Majrooh, Shakeel, Hasrat Jaipuri, Shailander, Rajinder Krishan, Bharat Vyas and others ruled the film world.

No, I am not for a static/stagnant culture. But the growth should be organic and natural. I think that it was Rabindra Nath Tagore who said that he wanted the doors of his house closed but windows open. I think that Indians have not only opened both doors and windows but also gotten rid of the walls as far as popular culture portrayed by films and music videos is concerned.

I would repeat that this is true only of pop culture. I am quite enthusiastic abut the classical music and dance scene in India.

Apparently my PREVIOUS attempt was not able to stir up much emotion in most chowkies.

Therefore.. here is the appeal again..

I know of this young man Hafeez. He is a bonafide victim whose family is out on the road. Please send him the little you can ...

I have already checked the following (Considering chowkie sensibilities):

1- He has NO political affiliation

2- He has NO Jehadi/Islamist affiliation

3- He is a hardworking law-abiding citizen of the AJK who is working in Lahore as a guard/chowkidar + office boy for lowly pay.

4- He lost some of his family and ALL of his worldly belonging.


PLEASE - please -please help.

You know where to contact me.

mannyd

My thoughts exactly! This little girl is so good that unless something derails her career, she will leave Lata Mangeshkar behind soon.

Amazingly, oodles of talent is spilling out of medium-sized and smaller towns too. The talent, creativity, guts, ambition, and energy of these young men and women leaves me shaking my head. One is mightly glad not to be out there in the cold, competing against these kids :)

151 Kaal Sahib: `What did you think of Preya Ghoshal? To me she sounds very very good`

I agree with you on Preya. She is as good as Lata ever was and I have not even heard her anywhere else except on this TV show.
Mukesh`s elder brother at one time remarked that there will be more Rafi and Mukesh in the future but Lata will not be duplicated in the next 500 years. I am sure if Preya retains her voice and health, we`ll have another Lata from Mumbai right now. It was sad in a way to see her win so effortlessly over other young girls, who were just dumbfounded and demoralized.

On an other note, A. R. Rahamn did a benefit concert recently and braught together all the original singers to perform his hits from the recent movies. It was a fantastic show and the talent was so diverse and dazzling. The show ended with Rahman leading the rousing chorus in `Ma tujh ko salam`, urdu version of `Vande Matram`.

I think Bomaby was more cliquish and closed in the fifties and sixties and people tended to stick with `safe bets` rather than take chances on newcomers. It is more open but brutally competitive and cut throat today. However the consumer gets more bang for his buck. Lahore lacked competition from Bomaby and it shows in their products.

Zahra, Anil

It seems that one can`t hope to retain one`s `identity` or `culture` through stagnation. A better approach is to constantly adapt to change in one`s own unique and special way. Bollywood represents that trait very well.

lol....Mannyd, does jhumri talaiya really exist or was it a scam run by vividhbharti of old?

#146 Harish Sahib, you asked

`Aap kaunse shehar ke hain bolo, phir dekho hum aapki shehar ku kitne gaaliyan dete.`
Did you notice how Kaal Babu danced around your straight question?.......LOL... I may be wrong but I think he is from Jhumri TalyaaN, a town of music lovers and patrons, who used to spam radio stations with their requests.)

Dharma: On the other thread, I am sorry that I gave the impression of not listening to you. I shall try harder next time. Mr. Sridhar knows Tamil but he also lived in Delhi for a while. I also did not realize that Rakhat meant blood until you mentioned it. If it was written in Devnagari instead of Roman script, I would have had no problem in reading the meaning. By the way do you know Tamil?

mannyd

What did you think of Preya Ghoshal? To me she sounds very very good.

re: harish_hyd # 146

ha ha.....How could I have missed?

sorry, my friend. Sincere apologies. Will it be amends enough to say that Hyderabadis are really nice people? :)

Seriously, some of my happiest days were spent in that city.

I lived for about an year right behind the Secretariat, not far from the Hussain Sagar lake. As you can imagine, life was good :)

Re: # 143

Zahraj:

I knid of agree with you, if Dost-Mitter is right then the ``cultural aspect of ``pre-partitioned`` India are stagnant in Pakistan. The third generation since partition is probably teenager now in both countries. The world has moved a long way, even ``culture`` (if you call it) in India has moved from grandmother`s time to my nieces time in India. I can see it, and I can feel it. In my time, in South India, among young females saree and south india lehenga and chunni were popular dress, and now it is salwar - kameez. This change you can see it smaller cities and larger villages too. In my days there were only girls in the entire engineering collge, now 40% of the class is women.

TV made the greatest impact, then education of girls by the middle class. Finally bollywood in old days the south indian movie songs sounded very different, but now the fusion of western music is quite evident and south indian and hindi movie songs sound quite alike. Personally I find it hard to believe that Dost-Mitter`s observation is entirely correct.

Anil

Anil

`Paan khayo sanyaN hamaro`

I had not heard the original song from Teesri Kasam. There is a program on Z TV called `Sa Re ga Ma Pa golden moments`, which I watched couple of times. On one of the shows they had a collage of Naushad`s visits at different times to the same show. Naushad mentioned that he got classical training from Ustads in Lucknow secretly, was thrown out of the house when he was 17 and spent years sleeping on the sidewalk in Bombay before he got a break. It took him eighteen years before he was feted for Baiju Bawara`s music in a cinema opposite the sidewalk he used to sleep on.

On another show, a new singer was showcased competing in different years since she was a pre-teenager, probably seven or eight. The singer was Preya Ghoshal. She sang `Paan Khayo` in one episode. At other times she sang `Kuhu kuhu bole re koyaliya` ( lost) and `Zindagi usi ki hai`, a Marathi song composed by Pandit Mangehkar and sung by Asha Bhonsle. I do not know Marathi but it had enough Sanskrit words that sounded so melodious. A far cry from `Aati Kaya Khandala`.

#146
Harish, LOL.

#97 by kaalchakra

[Hope no Hyderabadis would be reading this, but if there a language that is an insult to one`s ears it is the Deccani :)]

Kaal Saab, aap ku mera nick dekhko samajh mein aa jaana chiyye tha ki my Hydrabadi hoon...Hamaari izzat ku kaiku to bhi nikaalre miyan?? Ham aap ki kya to bhi bigaade?

Hamaari Hydrabad ku gaali derain aap? Aap kaunse shehar ke hain bolo, phir dekho hum aapki shehar ku kitne gaaliyan dete.

Re: # 108

HP:

That was a very inappropriate (na-munasib) remark on Ajmer.

Re: # 102

I agree with Sridhar Sahib. The old-timers crave for the yesteryears. We wish somebody can come and reinvent the golden days of the past.

Can Pakistanis do it???? They should rather take it as a challange. The tip is-- start with a good script with lovely dialogues.

Re: # 54

dost-mittar:

[So, in some ways, Pakistan is retaining ``Indian`` culture better than India. ]

I have never understood your reason for appreciating the above. You always bring this up somehow or other when a topic is on cultural discussion. Let me ask: Do you appreciate or admire that Pakistan has retained Indian culture better than India? Even if it has, what does that represent? progress? growth? development? what? why would you envy? One can preserve many attributes and teachings with the hope that they`ll add to the overall character of a persona. What`s the outcome of that preservation that is so attractive to you?

I am not sure if you subscribe to a certain school of thought and that`s what you`ve an appreciation for what you are appreciating. Having known you for a number of years and reading your enlightened perspectives, I am unable to comprehend your rationale and drift. Please clarify.

summary of this thread so far:


our models are better than yours
our pop music is better than yours
our dramas are better than yours
your movies are better than ours
your movie songs are better than ours
our women wear more clothes than yours
our men wear more clothes than yours
shaan is better looking than salman
your music directors copy our songs
our movie producers copy your movies
you copy hollywood movies
aishwaria is more world famous than iman ali
shahrukh is the butt ugliest luckiest muslim in india

Re: # 138

if this is a sincere query.... muziq.net

re: Dharma # 139

LOL...that was a bit harsh, and very unfair.

Not everyone, not even all Brahmins, have to know Sanskrit (although I have a strong feeling that RSridhar may not be as `ignorant` as you think).

Essentially, dharma bhai, we have to acknowledge that we are the lucky inheritors of two great classical civilizations - one Sanskrit based, the other based on the broad Dravidian group of languages, exemplified most prominently by old Tamil.

These are the two equally-important legs of the long-distance runner known loosely as the ``Hindu` civilization.

Ideally, we ought to be familiar with both. But we are all too lazy, and too incompetent. :)

Re: # 137 sridhar
``Well, my point was Urdu being the medium of conversation in Bollywood movies (even the titles are in urdu; i don`t know what the heck the word Rakht means but there is a bollywood movie by that name!)``

That is a shame that you being a brahmin, dont know the meaning of the word rakth. It means red or blood in sanskrit. I guess you are becoming more arabic like your enmies you so love to hate.

re:#132 by ahmadzai
Is there a single website for Pakistani pop, especially Junoon, Fuzon?
Sridhar

re:#109 by Kulharee
Well, my point was Urdu being the medium of conversation in Bollywood movies (even the titles are in urdu; i don`t know what the heck the word Rakht means but there is a bollywood movie by that name!), Pakis are best suited to full the vaccum. People bemoaning the loss of shairee and melody in Bollywood movies and songs do not realize that the newer generation does not think the way older ones did . Hardly anyone today can read or write urdu, so the question of penning good lyrics does not arise.
Anyway, since u brought up the question of Kashmir, i think the moment is most propitious for a solution. At least that is my reading of the political mood on both sides.
Sridhar

Re: # 124
hp:

``I see that Indian movies makers are getting off that beaten track of love and hate and coming around to different themes via Plagiarizing Hollywood.``

not only movie makers but music directors too. they have blatantly plagiarized western music too. even pak singers were not left untouched eg. nusrat fateh ali.

re:#105 by ali_1

(Was your lunch that day cooked with gao mutra or did you sprinkle some you your friend`s plate? I`d be sheet scared to accept lunch at a Hinju household or restaurant.)
Ha, ha.
You seem to have developed some sense of humor in Guanatanama Bay.
Sridhar

kulhari various

Wah bhai wah, aap to ustad nikale!!!

P.S. please don`t address me as sahib, aap ke samane hum to nacheez hai.

re:#104 by ali_1
Hey Ali (the word in Tamil means ``eunuch``),
How are u, man? How is the weather in Guantanama Bay? I did not know they allow u internet access there.
Sridhar

I find this to be a good article as I can relate to the feelings of the author. This is perhaps attributable to my religious and a particular ethnic background. I see our women watching some crappy (my views) Indian dramas, but still holding on to our own culture.

My views:

1. Pakistan is located at the confluence of South Asian, Central Asian and the Middle Eastern cultures. Pakistani history and culture will always reflect this fact. Therefore, classical music and qawwalis; Mohammad Ghori; and words like Alhamdolillah / Inshallah will remain eternal parts of an evolving Pakistan. Now I have noticed some Pakistanis on this website reject some of our Central Asian heroes, as much as this writer has rejected Indian symbols, which should be equally questionable. Furthermore, mujras don`t belong to many sub-cultures of Pakistani society, including Pakhtoon.

2. The best advice has come from Dost Mittar jee on developing a niche: The area that stands out for Pakistani media in this regard is current affair programming. The area for our artists could be speaking good shaista Urdu like Dost Mittar suggested. In addition, Pakistani media should also develop a niche that it discovered in the late 80s – the pop/rock band music.

3. Pakistani media should stop forcing Punjabi and Punjabi culture on Pakistanis. If it does, then it should be done on an equal opportunity basis for other regional languages like Pushto and Sindhi. The Punjabi laden Pakistani Urdu dramas and shows offer neither the economy of scales nor of scope.

On a departing extended note, Pakistani pop/rock scene had hit it big even in the NWFP (especially Peshawar). I recall that in a Junoon rock show for Peshawar’s school and college girls, the girls had so much liked the music that they took their dopattas off their heads and began to waive their hands in harmony. Pakistani pop-rock bands rule supreme (I personally like Karavan, Jal and Rahim Shah). These kids are experimenting with everything. The music and lyrics are improving each single day and so are the videos. Pakistan’s very own band music deserves much more airtime than do the dramas being produced in alien tones.

Welcome to the indian influence. You will be assimilated, resistance is futile. We in Indian have been dealing with this creature for a long time (i.e. indian cultural influence on regional flavors) and have survived. The madrasis have survived the punju influence and now make more movies than hindi ( i mean tamil telugu kannada and mallu combined got to be more). the ghatis gave up making movies a long time back, and either work in ``indian`` movie industry like nana patekar and mahesh manjrekar or make plays.. gujjus stick to dandiya and plays. bongs i think still keep arguing about something. bhaiyya land is involved in agriculture and comedy from lalloo prasad.

Thanks to TV, regional flavors are again taking off..regional language writers again have some jobs. but its strange.. i can watch a mallyalam cooking show understand most of it to know that the orange-looking dish being prepared is actually paneer pasanda..(rolling eyes icon).

So, relax and enjoy the ride. Enjoy the Yoga show in the morning from Swami Bankihaddi, tips on making dosas extra crisp, analysis of Inzis batting from Siddhu, tips on ivesting on KSE from Chitra Dalal, Inside LeT camp in Mudrike by Barkha Dutt, and please please, learn good mannered language like pranam, dhanyavad, subhratri etc (rolling eyes again).

An ali, you may have had a case until you claimed Nazia Hussain as example of quality (my eyes are hurting due to all the rolling).

Re: # 125

Kulharee,

Do you have idea where Asad Amant Ali Khan lives these days?

thanks,

haideri

Kulhari#125:

Thanks for the info.

Chaltahai#127:

``Some Queer Eye for the Peshawar guy with do the region some good.``

LOL!

I take it author has similar feelings against western cultural ``invasions``, has also never watched HBO, cinemax, columbia tristar`s latest releases, has similar objections to mtv, disney, noggin etc, has never sung happy birthday, hey diddle diddle, never heard pink floyd, never worn jeans and tees, and wishes the same for all pakistanis. pity.

Re: # 118: Kullu kay Pathay, who is this shankarji guru of yours? You can`t change your gurujis, it`s like changing your name. What were you called before Kulharee?

In a world that is getting smaller and smaller, with techologies bringing everyone closer together, how you can stand to be a silo is beyond me. Let`s take a look at a silo...North Korea. I am not sure if Pakistan wants that to be a model for the future, Bipasha Basu writhing on the hood of a maruti or not. Frankly, Pakistan can use a little moderation. Some Queer Eye for the Peshawar guy with do the region some good.

Whatever, Kulhari bhai, my salutations to you. You must be a very good musician. God`s own man, because music is truly one of the great gifts from God.

Re: # 123

Dost Mitter Ji…you don’t know who Tafu is? Ustad Iltaf Hussian (the only living legend of whatever remains of Punjab Gharana). He is an older cousin of Ustad Zakir Hussain Sahib, lives in Hira Mandi Lahore. He occasionally plays a little. Artists don’t get much respect these days in Pakistan.

No Dost Mitter Ji.. I see and learn as much as I can Zakir Ji. I live in NY so there`s little that is available. But I do consider all of the old Ustads and Gurus as my gurus. One can take inspiration without being in the company. That`s what music is about.

#117 by Netizen
“the lyrics are based on tapori language.”

I don’t know about tapori language but those two characters (Munna, and Aamir in Ghulam) are not unfamiliar in Karachi. Baloch in Karachi often speak in similar styles. Bombay slang is not strange in Karachi where people of several ethnic backgrounds live and Urdu is influenced by many languages. I see lots of sindhi words in Bambay’s language too…Saeen, Charya, varri and many other.

I have a theory that as long as Indian movies were not allowed in Pakistan, Pakistani movie Industry in Lahore thrived but as soon as people started watching Indian movies on VCR in the mid 70s, Pakistani movie industry took a nosedive. Pakistan movie Industry was also depended on the artists and technicians who left Bambay and found work in Lahore. Once that source dried up due to visa and other restrictions, Pakistani movies suffered technically and otherwise.

I see that Indian movies makers are getting off that beaten track of love and hate and coming around to different themes via Plagiarizing Hollywood. Still some new ideas are showing up and I think India audiences have matured too.
Munna Bhai was the funniest movie I watch in a long time so were hungama and a couple more.

Kulhari:

Did you take any lessons from Abbaji? You may be a guru-bhai of a couple of good friends?

Kulhari#118:

By Abbaji, did you mean Zakir`s Abbaji, Alla Rakha? [I thought Abbaji had disappeared from the Pak vocabulary, everyone has Abu these days:)]

And who is Tafu?

Re: # 120

Kachakra Ji, no… Ustad AllaRakha Qureshi Khan Sahib (father of Ustad Zakir Hussain Sahib) is lovingly known as ‘Abbaji’ by all Tabla Palyers of various Gharanas. Now, you learn something new.

My Abbaji is not musical.

Abbaji ...?


You mean, your dad or your guruji?! If that is true, then, Kulharee, you are a very big shot! Really :)

The name Zakir Hussain doesn`t belong to some small time artiste.

``Why are our channels airing semi-filmi soap operas like India, whose own dramas have not progressed in the 15 years I have been watching television??? ``

Madam, Why have you been watching Indian TV for last 15 years. There you go. There is the answer. Dont you have your channels.

``which is proven by the immense response even every Atif, who crosses the border, gets in India. ``

Nobody in India gives a `f` about Paki channels. No body knows about these Artists. I watched their so called pop song couple of times. They are mostly homosexuals pop singers with no girl in the video. They sing usually in desert or at the beach. So boring ...

Re: # 116

Netizen Sahib.. Yeah, it is a small world. My Guruji and Shankarji’s Guruji were both disciple of a same Guruji of Punjab Gharana. My friends in Lahore tell me that they can walk into Bombay (Bambai) movie studios and all they have to say is that they belong to Punjab Gharana. Ustad Zakir Hussain reluctantly wore PaGar after Abbaji died, and insisted that he had to had Tafu’s blessing before being considered of this honor. Yes we are both the same.

Re: # 108

hp:

``Aati kaya Khandala` ``

the lyrics are based on tapori language. aamir`s character was a tapori similar to sanjay dutts character in munna bhai m.b.b.s., bhole to .....

Re: # 115

``I consider all of the old Bollywood to be as much Pakistani as it is Indian.``

very true....

I read that Lahore was the centre of the hindustani movie industry (as it was dominated by punjus). only after partition mumbai stole the march.

HP Sahib, I agree…

Netizen Sahib.. I consider all of the old Bollywood to be as much Pakistani as it is Indian. I am so much into it that I hate the the name ``Bollywood``... I call it ``Bombay Movie Industry``. Not Indian, not Pakistani, but ``Bombay Movie Inudustry`` that belongs to the entire world.

Waisay, you got me real good.

Re: # 108

``For a long time I thought that song was in Marathi…To me it was like “Aa tu kunda la”…and the response “Aa ti Kunda la”… It sounded urdu but was completely meaningless for me. I really thought it was in Marathi until someone told me the correct words. `

in marathi, “Aa tu kunda la”… makes sense

but the reply would been ``Ye-tay me kunda la`` or ``Ye-tay kunda la``

i don`t think kunda means anything in marathi.

this song has mumbaiya hindi, majrooh sultanpuri was disgusted with it.

Re: # 109

``Here’s a lovely song to remind you of Pakistani contribution to Bollywood: Movie is Tesri Kasm. Song by Shailendra and musical composition by Shanker Jaikishen.

Paan khayo SiyaN Hamaroo,
SaNwali Suratya, Hont lal lal

Hai hai Malmal ka Kurta
Malmal kay Kurtay pey cheenth lal lal ``


Pakistani contribution? heres raj kapoors plea to you, also from Tesri Kasam :

``Saajan re jooth mat bollo
Kudha ke pas jaana hai

Na haathi hai na ghoda hai
waha paidal hi jana hai``

#109 by Kulharee
Paan khayo SiyaN Hamaroo,
SaNwali Suratya, Hont lal lal ..
I think this goes like… SaNwali Suratya pay Hont na lagayo

Hai hai Malmal ka Kurta
Malmal kay Kurtay pey cheenth lal lal

And this goes like this.. Malmal kay Kurtay pey cheenth Na lagayo

This is a one beautiful idea/concept…I hope you appreciate that…Malmal kay Kurtay pey Cheenth Na Lagayo.

HP

Urdu has become an exotic artefact that draws attention only for specific and particular purposes. Unfortunately, a characteristic of languages that are dead or dying.

It is enormously popular, but with its separate script, its productivity and postion will consistently weaken.

Re: # 105

ali:

``Was your lunch that day cooked with gao mutra or did you sprinkle some you your friend`s plate? I`d be sheet scared to accept lunch at a Hinju household or restaurant. ``

no worry, your food will be sprinkled with camel mutra, imported exclusively from arabia ;)

Re: # 102

>>>I see a Mehboob Khan or a KA Abbas waiting in the wings somewhere in Paki hinterland. Perhaps even a Md Rafi?
No sweat. Come on guys and conquer bollywood and make it better! <<<<

Sridhar Sahib.. aap saray Hindustani wapis lay LaiN, uskey badley maiN hamaiN sirf Kashmir dey daiN. It will be a win-win situation for us.

On a less serious note, we gave our finest to give your industry a boost, its been 60 years or so, the foundation of Bollywood was laid by Khoon-Paseena of talented Pakistanis, now it is upto you to take it to a higher level.

Here’s a lovely song to remind you of Pakistani contribution to Bollywood: Movie is Tesri Kasm. Song by Shailendra and musical composition by Shanker Jaikishen.

Paan khayo SiyaN Hamaroo,
SaNwali Suratya, Hont lal lal

Hai hai Malmal ka Kurta
Malmal kay Kurtay pey cheenth lal lal

#104 by ali_1

“you have to be an absolute idiot or a complete fruit cake to watch Hnju movies or Pakistani or Hinju soaps, but to each his own I guess.”

Hamidm would be really offended and I am right there too, Ali.

Why else you wanna watch TV or movies if they can’t even show a little midriff and some two piece suits? Are you looking for some Maulana Moudoodi shaking his beard in Movies?

Neti,
Okay agreed that Ajmer has some clown going as aulia in there but how that makes the whole town Sharif? I think it is a case of reverse psychology…The town should be named Ajmer Harr-ami.

`Aati kaya Khandala`

For a long time I thought that song was in Marathi…To me it was like “Aa tu kunda la”…and the response “Aa ti Kunda la”… It sounded urdu but was completely meaningless for me. I really thought it was in Marathi until someone told me the correct words.

Kaala,

I thought you can write Urdu in Devnagri so why script should be a problem...I was told that Indian movie actors learn Urdu diction before they work in the movies.

Re: # 104

You are so informative.

hamidm #92 I think it is a stretch to say that graduates of heera mandi marry feudal lords and captains (literally, in Pakistan, btw) of industry. and even for the one or two heera mandi cinderallas who do, we know what that is like (as explained by Tehmina Durrani in ``My Feudal Lord``). But the Joyless Club of Pan Spitting Men wishes to express thanks for your concern for them.

Anyway, I dont think ``cultural engineering`` is possible anyway - you may as well try to put toothpaste back in the tube before you try to roll back cultural influences (whether they are indian movies, arab words, american fast food franchises, or afghan kebabs or mujras). All I am saying is we need to at least try to curb the bad effects of them (e.g. cereberal paralysis caused by indian movies; syllable loss caused by arab words; obesity caused by fast food; kidnappings encouraged by mujra-demands). I am not saying that we can or should ban any of the above (and we cant anyway, as we all know by now).

We need more entertainment in Pakistan, not less - and indian classical dance a la Tehreema Mitha is fine e.g., but not prostitution of poor women posing as classical heritage that caters to the needs of feudal lords.

As for old Pakistani movies, the only one I remember was Rangeela which starts with rangeela waking up from sleep with his head stuck inside the ropes of the charpoy - his struggles to get out took care of about the first 30 minutes of the movie.

#4 Culture Cloning on November 20, 2005
[``I used to have a very good Pakistani friend in New York who worked with me during our residency days. I took him home one day to meet my parents who were visiting me. He saw my mom and said ``namaste``. My mom took an instant liking for him and asked me discreetly to invite my friend to stay on for lunch, which he did.``]

Was your lunch that day cooked with gao mutra or did you sprinkle some you your friend`s plate? I`d be sheet scared to accept lunch at a Hinju household or restaurant.

Oh man! The liberals and Hinjus think we will turn Ayrabs if people say Ramadan Mubarak and Shaista Bibi thinks we will turn Hinju if a DJ says Namaste... These liberals, Hinjus and Shaista Bibi all need to chillaX, OK!

Hinju and Pakistani channels are BOTH crap. Injun remixes are popular because of the titillation factor: they provide some serious titty-booty shakes with minimal cloth on the crotch. In fact the absolute objectification of the female hiney in Hinju remixes is second only to what our guys from van nuys provide in their $49.99 DVD`s. (That`s pretty high class prose, ha!)

Pakistani musicians, lyricists and performers are WAYYYY ahead of Hinjus, be it nusrat fateh ali or Mehdi Hasan or Nazia Hasan or Adan Sami or Strings or Fuzon or Junoon -- though some Hinjus do argue that Lata and Asha, the two ugly ducklings with shrieking prepubescent voices are a match for Noor Jehan! Earlier this year I watched the 2000 Hinju music channels in Pakistan and all of them had Pakistani numbers on the top of their charts! So there!

Finally, you have to be an absolute idiot or a complete fruit cake to watch Hnju movies or Pakistani or Hinju soaps, but to each his own I guess.

rsridhar

Urdu is a purely Indian language, Arabic is not. Urdu is enormously popular. Arabic has no takers. The fate of Urdu in India (and elsewhere) will depend entirely upon whether its promoters are its genuine lovers, or they wish to use Urdu to promote Arabic.

re: Bollywood and Urdu
Agree with HP.
I am one of those from an older generation who grew up on the movies of Dilip Kr and Waheeda Rehaman. Even though i know little urdu, i could feel the beauty of that language when a superb dialogue was rendered with, what is the word, panache?by the thespian. Then there were people like Soharb Modi, Motilal etc etc with good diction.
Now, i cringe when i hear Bombay hindi with words like ``tu kya bolti`` or ``kahey ku khalee peele lafda karta hai`` or ``uskee tho waat laga doonga`` etc
I see a great opportunity for Pakis to come over and fill this vaccum. Bollywood dialogues are still in urdu (not the arabised version but the gentler kind) with a fair mixture of hindi here and there. I see a Mehboob Khan or a KA Abbas waiting in the wings somewhere in Paki hinterland. Perhaps even a Md Rafi?
No sweat. Come on guys and conquer bollywood and make it better!
Sridhar

This is a nice writeup and another dart on the board that missed the bullseye by at least a mile. Looking at the influences of Indian TV within 3 square miles neighborhood of Karachi is not really an empirical study of Indian influences on Pakistani culture(s). I see more girls wrapped up in Black Abaya in Pakistan than I see bindi girls or guys singing and prancing in the streets wearing polyester pants. Black Abaya that covers the entire ugliness is more foreign to Pakistan than any one of the Indian influences. I say ban the friggin Abaya.

Kaal #97: `Hope no Hyderabadis would be reading this, but if there a language that is an insult to one`s ears it is the Deccani `
LOL.. Not only Hyderabadis make bad Biryani, they also pretend they are from Lucknow while speaking Deccani.)
However the ones I know have great sense of humor. My doctor is a Hyderabadi. If you are reading this Doctor Sahib, it is only a joke. A Hyderabadi neighbor of mine was related to Habib Wali Mohammad allowing me to listen to Habib Sahib`s rendition of Zafar and Ghalib`s Ghazals at close quarters.

Re: # 78

It is up to the individual to decide what he chooses and what he doesn`t. You might think mujras are bad but for some people, mujras should be retained more as an art form rather than using them to exploit females. I personally favor freedom of expression in dance and other art forms.

I agree that we should question aspects of our culture and other cultures and then pick and choose them according to our values.

Re: # 87

``I don`t know why Ajmer is ``Sharif``, is Delhi Kamini any thoughts anyone?``

no serious note, ajmer is home to a revered aulia, chisti.

mannyd

Hope no Hyderabadis would be reading this, but if there a language that is an insult to one`s ears it is the Deccani :)

---

HP

Were it not for its script, Urdu would rule in India. As things stand, `good` urdu would become a thing of the past.

Re: # 87

``I don`t know why Ajmer is ``Sharif``, is Delhi Kamini any thoughts anyone?) ``

I think for the same reasons that Nawaz was sharif and mushy, a kamina :)

Shaista JI,
Namastey. I agree with you on the song `Aati kaya Khandala`. The Bombayiya hindi is an insult to any language. I saw the song on a song DVD without the story line contest.

Mr. Khan grinding and jerking his pelvis gave me the impression that Khandala was something obscene, until my Sirdarni explained to me that it was a hill station near Bombay. It is indeed a very scary song for Paki children to watch and sing. They are all liable to grow uo into Hamidm2s and believe me no sane person wants that. Not even Indians wish that upon their worst enemies.

Other than that, Shaista ji, take it Ahista.

Ranjit #66: ``In Dish satellite, there is a channel called TV Asia and they have a program - Abhi to Main Jawaan Hoon, which is broadcasted by one, Shiraz Sharif in New Jersey. This program shows old hindi movie songs tied together by a theme for an hour. It is one of the best programs in TV and I watch it regularly.``

I subsribed to `Dish` less than a year ago. Mt primry aversion to Hindi movies is their long meandering story line, that goes on and on, something like Pandit tahmed32`s posts. However the programme you mentioned is my favorite also.

Shiraz Sharif is a good host, but sometimes he makes mistakes also in mentioning the music directors. He sometimes confuses Naushad with Shankar Jaikisan or vice versa, but otherwise his knowledge of the Bombay scene is pretty good. I recently learnt that he helped Amin Sayani of Binaca geet Mala at Radio Ceylone.

Re: # 91

hp,

.......... i agree .... pakistan should get out of the tv entertaiment business before they kill someone by boring them to death ........... let the indians do it because they are much better at it - we should stick to producing talk shows to keep the mullahs and politicians off the streets .........

tahmed,

..... like i said, ``culture is what it is, and you can`t go about engineering it to suit your personal prejudices, hang-ups, idiosyncracies, fears, misguided morality, bigotry and religious idiocy`` ........... and your concern for the artistes of heera mandi is misplaced ........... many of them graduate to become big time film stars and others marry feudal lords and captains of industry to live in the lap of luxury ............. i am talking about those who have their fine establishments on main street and not in the back alleys ...... my favourite was the girl who starred in ``stop for tops`` commercials and later did the movie ``road to swat`` ............. remember?

hp,

....... people of my father`s generation tell me that lahore had the finest night-life in all of pre-partition india .......... it was also fine (except for the ten days of muharram) in the seventies, before the discovery of wahabi islam ...............

#90

I would prefer that all Pakistani channels should be leased to Indians for better programming...TV and movies are for entertainment and Pakistanis are begining to forget what entertainment is...this article reflects that without any doubt.

Culture and civilizations are fragile and get broken often. New cultural icons emerge and old civilizations lose relevance. The cultural influences people are worried about now may not be there 10-20 years down the line...

All they have to do is teach Indians some Urdu and Pakistanis would love them…well they like them already…

Shaista bibi

Why don`t you put this bickering to rest by posting a list of entertainment programming that you will allow on Pakistani television.

He alive and kicking!
I was missing Salim Chauhan

hamidm #83 i am glad you are concernced about bringing ``joy`` to those joyless men who go to mujras. that is not what i am talking about, nor is their well-being exactly a high priority item in my view.

i am talking about these ``courtesans`` you mention: do you think any young girl with any choices available to her would actually aspire to become a ``courtesan`` where (at best) she would be dancing to bring joy to some fat lump of betel-leaf chewing flesh? and (when not at best, which is more usual) provide additional services to these creatures. even the movie ``umrao jan ada`` which glorifies the mujra shows umrao jan being kidnapped from her home and sold into prostitution.

Why can’t people take this article lightly?

I love Indian Music. Movies are good…I only have Indian channels on my dish and I find Pakistani channels boring and non-entertaining.
My only complaint is that Indians don’t speak good Urdu. They speak a cruder version and I wish someone could teach them Urdu before they get on the TV or Movies.
I love the new version of the song Kanta lagaa... hi lagaa… oh! Man she can do things with her hiney.
I have some great memories with this song…
Mera pia gaya rongoon,
kiya hai whaan say telephone,
tumahi yaad satati hai,
jai main aag lagati hai.

..and love the new version...

Peolple talk about Mujra and Hira Mandi and the Napier Road but there was a time when the Hyderabad Sindh Kotha/Chuckla had the best dancers in whole Pakistan… Some famous actresses were dancers there and I have the privilege of watching some when I was barely eighteen. But, Mujra came to Pakistan via the Urdu speaking as there was no Mujra before partition in any Pakistani cities except may be in Lahore.

Hyderand Kotha was later taken over by Swati and Pathan girls and they were famous for saying “jaldi karo naa BHAI” and destroyed the whole scene.

Napier Road Karachi was still good in the early 80s but then the Islam set in and all dancers turned Islam pasand and started offering Namaz for Mujra to paying customers…(namaz has certain good angles) Some of my friends reported that girls often would cover their face and body for the mullah audience…. What a pity...
So Indians are good and let every one watch them… I wish they improve their Urdu skills.

Naqash Bandi
qawali again is not a Pakistani tradition it was brought to Pakistan by People from Ajmer Sharif…(I don`t know why Ajmer is ``Sharif``, is Delhi Kamini any thoughts anyone?)

Zahra #84 Let me put it this way - the range of services provided in the shadows of the badshahi masjid goes beyond that provided at the bolshoi theater.

Shaista,

``If this is what our media gurus have learnt from the national debate on the topic than I am really disappointed.``

er..shouldn`t that be ``media maulvis``...? :-)