Behind the Iron Purdah

how do you see a connection between ``honor killings, forced marriages, and domestic violence`` and islam??

arent these becuse we are a declined third world country? and whose fault is that? islam which never took part in this country or the capitalist west, whose feet our rulers have licked tirelessly for the past 60 years ????

re: Mushy`s remark about Paki women getting raped for money
I thought Paki women would want to known what their dictator thinks of them.
They say: a picture speaks a thousand words. Here are some:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=434360
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=434358
Sridhar

#262 by hamidm2

[now if you can cure romair i will accept you as my guru ......]

I remember an old dialog from Amitabh Bachchan`s movie Laawaris and I think it applies just perfectly to Romair. Excuse the Hindi spellings.

``Hum uss kuttay ki dum hain jo baarah saal nali mein rahein, nali tedhi ho gayi, magar hum seedhe nahin huen``.

Re: # 254

shankar,

........ thanks for the your professional opinion - i agree with most of it .......... you are a wise man indeed .......... now if you can cure romair i will accept you as my guru ......

....... rgds and my fish thank you

Re: # 254

Shankar: I understand that Hamidm has his own eccentricities but what did he do now to deserve a succinct response like this ?

Just for your kind information, we are in 2005.

Please wake up.

Polite Wishes.

Bina,
Great stuff! Written with such incisive honesty and understanding, not to mention keen observation of negative nuances in even the most mundane seeming situations in daily life which are the result of deeply ingrained injustice against women. You make me glad that I am a Chowk member; more power to your pen, Bina, you keep going, girl!!

Re: # 255

That is the tragedy! Women want equal rights with humans but don`t behave like civilised human beings. They can`t do so due to their contradictory mindset; their desire to be liked and loved by the opposite sex and also to make a show off their `pak bazi` and `ismat naaki`.
This has made the Hijab women mentally abnormal in a Talibani culture, be it India or Pakistan. I saw even a woman of about 80 objecting to a young boy sitting with her in a bus in the Pak land.

Re: # 253

It would not have been so bad on earth of course but for Adam having failed to call Hawa as sister or beti as actually she was having been born out of his rib as the story goes. And now:

Yoon nah tha mein ne faqat chaha thayoon ho jaae
Aur bhi dukh hein zamaane mein mohabbat ke siva

Thanks and regards.

Re: # 256

rotfl

see what i mean?

#254 SSS (Shrunk shrink Shankar)

Dear S3,

You need to stop playing tweedle-dee versus tweedle-dum with Hamidm!

This routine is OLD! He makes an outrageous statement – and YOU (Lord almighty!) show up as the “reasonable” counterpoint. I believe you should stick to fish (not physically, though).

If I may suggest to you, a supposed shrink, your interactions over the years reveal a deeply disturbed persona – someone who came to this chowk world wearing a thin veneer of civility and tried to maintain it for a while – until the sands of time kept grating and exposing more and more of the inner core – till it all came out – the gook, the bad, and the ugly!

Your wholesale generalization and trashing of a people (Biharis, in this case) is beyond comparison. It won’t surprise me if as a child you were traumatized by your Bihari milkman – or perhaps a Bihari school bully – at the head of a long line of bullies taking their respective turns at you. Are you sure that in your heart YOU are not a Bihari? Perhaps just a wanna-be?

Also, the way you keep harping on this “Muslim” theme (like my dear Hamidm does), may I remind you – THERE IS NO UMMAH – it’s all fictitious! These are people like you and me – perhaps some of their forefathers were yours, too!

[Men ....``in general`` are told (& bought up) to be the ``stronger sex``...its true in most cultures... Ofcourse, some cultures are more male-dominated than others (thats true of hindus too)...warriors, leaders, generals, statesmen, artists, poets are predominantly men.]
Such views are archaic and most reasonable thinkers have thrown them out of the window.

[Women are told (& bought up) that their first & foremost duty is to procreate...& raise their fertilised ova....to ``nest``...Its a ``hang-up`` that women deal with all the time.. ]
Obviously, a lot of wishful thinking! May I remind you that it takes TWO to procreate – a fact that may not have dawned upon your shrunk ness!

[One of the reasons my female patients, who have careers, are totally ``stressed out``....is because ….]
What a silly hypothesis! Of course your patients would be stressed out – they are YOUR patients, aren’t they? (Female or otherwise!)

[their ``conciense`` feels that somehow they arent doing their sociological duty (as it were) for putting their careers over children...they hate to admit it....its OTHER women that make them feel guilty...& it PISS*S them off...(kinda like Bina`s example...when the woman who was conservatively dressed...made the ``secular`` or ``modern`` muslim woman feel guilty.) ]
That’s great – spread the “guilt” brush widely – and keep those 50-minute checks rolling in! I have seen some poppycock on this site – but this takes the cake!

[..I see it in my wife too...``am I a good mother?`` is a question very frequently asked by career women...esp when they try and discipline kids!:) ]
And the reason you will NEVER tell her this crap in person is that you will get “disciplined” yourself faster than lightning!

[Yes...EDUCATION..is the KEY...it is EDUCATION that makes humans QUESTION & DEFY anachronistic attitudes of a culture ...or a nation...or a religion...]
But it does not always work – and YOU – my dear, are the namoona!

[If youre culture represses sex...you have very very wieeeerrrrd ideas about it...kinda like what every schoolboy (in Bombay..atleast) learns...ahem... ``one drop of semen =32 drops of blood``...or ``if a guy masterbates, he gets zits...or worse yet, a hernia``!!
If schoolboys in liberal Bombay (who interact with girls all the time...even way back in the 70s) learn that kinda crap....I wonder aloud what schoolboys in Waziristan or Gilgit or Jeddah learn about such...er...``blasphemous`` issues?!...the more repressed you are... the more confused (& perverted) you get....worse than that.... I wonder what GIRLS are told about such things in conservative societies?!]
I think I am finally getting a clear idea of why people from Bombay are considered such hopeless cases by so many!

[One of my patients was a very bright ``secular`` Bangladeshi college student..born & raised in a strict, conservative Islamic upbringing...I was extremely surprised that her parents had never/ever discussed sex with her...like it was some kind of sinful taboo...even to talk about it!]
Dear doc, that trend is not confined to Bangladesh – if you wake up a little and look outside your city cocoon, it holds true of most of rural India too. Also, sexuality and secularity are different animals – one rules your member while the other your mind (although in some cases – like yours – there may be clear confusion regarding the roles of the two).

[Freud`s daughter ..Anna Freud... in her seminal thesis ``Ego & the mechanisms of Defense``...said that when humans feel angry ...they ESP men) ``act-out`` their anger]
May I remind you that Freud died centuries ago. You shrinks have been treating him like your own “Allah-tala” for every little thing. Come up with some new stuff, would you?

The other day on returning to India from Europe, I landed at Mumbai. We have these minibuses plying from Mumbai airport to Pune. I purchased a ticket for a ride to Pune. When I entered the bus, I found all window seats taken, so there was nothing to do but share a seat. I reached for a seat and was about to sit down, when the person sitting on the seat by the window stopped me from sitting, pointed to another seat and said ``why dont you sit there? there is a man sitting there``. The person was a woman wearing a hijab but not covering her face. I was shocked speechless, for this sort of thing just does not happen in India. The next available seat had another girl sitting by the window who readily made room for me. The hijab wearing so-and so had probably come fresh from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan after indoctrination. The conclusion is , many people visiting these countries are so brainwashed that they would like spread the retrograde thinking even to their motherland if they can help it, so if these things happen in Pakistan, Talibanisation of that society is a question of not ``if`` but ``when``

Re: # 238

Hamid_m,

{{....... of course this is just a layman`s opinion ........ maybe shankar can give us the real scoop from a professional viewpoint ........}}

Are you quite sure you want a ``rational`` conversation from a Bihari?...he ``collects`` grudges!:))


{{- the majority of muslim men - and that includes unwashed abdul, who shares his tent with his camel or goat - suffer from an impotent rage ........ they have been bested by other men in every field of human endeavor - science, industry, technology, sports and sex}}

I cant tell you specifically about ``muslim men in Pakistan`` or in the ``ummah``...you know better than I do, cos you grew up in that microcosm.

Men ....``in general`` are told (& bought up) to be the ``stronger sex``...its true in most cultures... Ofcourse, some cultures are more male-dominated than others (thats true of hindus too)...warriors, leaders, generals, statesmen, artists, poets are predominantly men.

OTOH, women encounter a glass ceiling...its an amalgam of national..cultural..religious...& sociological attitudes of their microcosm. Women are told (& bought up) that their first & foremost duty is to procreate...& raise their fertilised ova....to ``nest``...Its a ``hang-up`` that women deal with all the time..

One of the reasons my female patients, who have careers, are totally ``stressed out``....is because their ``conciense`` feels that somehow they arent doing their sociological duty (as it were) for putting their careers over children...they hate to admit it....its OTHER women that make them feel guilty...& it PISS*S them off...(kinda like Bina`s example...when the woman who was conservatively dressed...made the ``secular`` or ``modern`` muslim woman feel guilty.)

..I see it in my wife too...``am I a good mother?`` is a question very frequently asked by career women...esp when they try and discipline kids!:)

I realise sweeping generalisations are just that ...a little too ``sweeping``...but a large part of a man`s ``self-esteem`` is based on what he DOES (ie...do I bring home ``most of`` the bacon? ...am I a productive human being?)....a large part of a woman`s ``self-esteem`` comes from how she LOOKS..(70 yr old ladies go to hairdressers every week...do you see a 70 yr old man do that?)....whether she is a good ``mistress`` of the household or not?...

Ofcourse..my personal/professional impression is based upon ``peering into human minds``, since 82...first in NY & then in MI...in the AMERICAN microcosm...

Yes...EDUCATION..is the KEY...it is EDUCATION that makes humans QUESTION & DEFY anachronistic attitudes of a culture ...or a nation...or a religion...

if you dont educate women as assiduously as you educate men...you WILL subdugate them (no matter how ``arrogantly`` & ``piously`` ones says..we PROTECT our women...in our ``perfect`` culture)...thats why western feminists despise cultures like Saudi Arabia...& educated muslim women in Pakistan are more vociferous about the crap that goes on in the name of ``Islaaaam!`` & ``Allah``...

Alas, IMHO, Islam has been hijacked by a bunch of blasphemers who have converted ``Allah`` into ``Shaitaan`` in the eyes of the non-Islamic world...
They have used words/phrases like ``the Holy Prophet``, ``Jihad``, ``Islaam`` to justify their brutality...

These people want a billion muslims to step off the train & GO BACK to a ``perfect`` time...where there was/is ``perfect`` laws...into the frikkin` 6 th century...

Why do you think a Southern Plantation owner not want to educate slaves?...cos an educated human is more AWARE of the bs hypocrisy thats going around him/her....& is more likely to ``rebel``...

Are ``conservative`` societies (read misogynistic) better?!..you be the judge...IMHO any culture that ``regresses`` back to an anachronistic era.... is in a deep pile of do-do...no matter how much you couch it as being ``pious`` or ``holy`` or ``Islamic``...

((Now...just because I`m critical of ``muslims`` (NOT Islam)...those of you who are purple in the face...better not tell me...but..but..what about us evil hindooos?...the issue here is about muslims...not hindus...if you want to know our faults, let me kindly refer you to Her Highness FV`s numerous articles..))


{{......... yes, sex ...... inspite of being allowed the luxury of having multiple women, muslim men, because of their misogynistic upbringing, cannot keep their women happy - i base my conclusion on the scientific observation that muslim women rarely smile and the fact that muhammad ata did not want women tattling at his funeral ..........}}

If youre culture represses sex...you have very very wieeeerrrrd ideas about it...kinda like what every schoolboy (in Bombay..atleast) learns...ahem... ``one drop of semen =32 drops of blood``...or ``if a guy masterbates, he gets zits...or worse yet, a hernia``!!

If schoolboys in liberal Bombay (who interact with girls all the time...even way back in the 70s) learn that kinda crap....I wonder aloud what schoolboys in Waziristan or Gilgit or Jeddah learn about such...er...``blasphemous`` issues?!...the more repressed you are... the more confused (& perverted) you get....worse than that.... I wonder what GIRLS are told about such things in conservative societies?!

One of my patients was a very bright ``secular`` Bangladeshi college student..born & raised in a strict, conservative Islamic upbringing...I was extremely surprised that her parents had never/ever discussed sex with her...like it was some kind of sinful taboo...even to talk about it!

{{ but women are a little bit more tricky, specially if they get a little education, discover foreplay and demand the right to vote ..........this drives the poor man nuts ......... hence the impotent rage as characterized by our dear friend ntsyed .............. }}

Yup! I agree...it makes men feel more insecure...& more ``impotent``...Freud`s daughter ..Anna Freud... in her seminal thesis ``Ego & the mechanisms of Defense``...said that when humans feel angry ...they ESP men) ``act-out`` their anger

---

violence or terrorism...

...if the dont ``act-out``...

the more ``civil-ised`` ones will use...
DENIAL...``it CANT be the Al-Qeeda that caused 911....its an Israeli conspiracy``..
RATIONALISATION...its the fault of the West, Israelis & Hindus that my cohorts are acting the way they are...
INTELLECTUALISATION...``so & so scholar Ibn Ibn Whateveri`` said so & so ..so jihad is justified...or...since its in a frikkin ``hadith`` (whatever THAT means)...or...if someting/something is said in the Koran...then it must be holy!

etc etc

Frau Anna Freud was very polite when she refered to the above as ``IMMATURE`` defense mechanisms...
thats what happens if a society starts regressing...they circle their wagons...& act like ``victims`` & blame everybody else for their problems...

Islam is a great religion...the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was one of the greatest men to walk upon the face of this earth...
Islam`s biggest BADNASEEB was her disciples turned out to be muslims...esp muslim MEN...

Who will save Rapunzel from her tower?!:(

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 252

teshah sahib,

..... you don`t have much use for women, do you ?.......... still mad at them for getting us thrown out of eden ? .....let bygones be bygones - life is not too bad on earth either .......

Re: # 223

``Equal rights?``

But what about `Naan Nufqah` which the women are using as a handle to get their husbands sent to jail through corrupt family courts of Pakistan? Why the man should be held responsible for supporting his wife even when she becomes his worst
enemy? Is it not worse than prostitution, in fact, virtual rape of the man?

#250, Gujju,
Thanks, yaar. Again, I am eternally indebted to you for exposing this hypocrite. I really appreciate your honesty in putting him in in his place.
He pontificates so much about profanity and abuse, yet is AWOL when it comes to accountability, honesty, truthfulness, and fairness.
Now you understand why we have Mulla problems in Pakistan? These self-sanctimonious padres of morality and one-sided critique are everywhere.
Thanks,
Salim